The Dems will always be better than the knuckle-dragging woman-hating racist repukes.

[cynatnite]

That is all.

[Justitia]

1. Really? Because it sure doesn't feel like it tonight. Not to this woman.

And before I get the lecture, please know that I have voted for every odious, barely-Dem that has ever run on my ballot.
I am in TX, after all.

We just lost 30 years.

[cynatnite]

4. Was Roe v Wade overturned tonight and I missed it? n/t

[Justitia]

5. It has been rendered absolutely meaningless to millions of women - guess you missed that.

[cynatnite]

7. How so?

If I need an abortion I can still go get it. Grant it, it's not being covered by the government which does make it difficult for poor women...should this become law.

The laws today have not changed and nothing has been signed. This thing is far from Obama's desk as it is. Take a step back and look at this realistically, please.

[Justitia]

8. A "right" is meaningless if you can't exercise it. Not just poor women - ANY WOMAN w/a private plan

90% of all PRIVATE plans in America today cover womens reproductive health svcs, including abortion.

Now, NO private plan will.

[cynatnite]

9. Interesting enough, someone here at DU just posted a statistic about this...

A 2003 Guttmacher Institute study found that 13% of all abortions in 2001 were directly billed by abortion providers to private insurance companies

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/inthenews/2009/07/22/index.html

It's a small percentage for a variety of reasons. Staffers at these companies are unaware of what is covered, most women won't turn in claims, and the out-of-network physicians providing abortion services won't always be paid by the companies.

Also, as I understand it the amendment was so that the government won't pay for abortions...not the insurance companies. Did I have that wrong?

[Justitia]

12. Yes, you have it wrong. PRIVATE insurance companies will not be allowed to cover the service.

Not just gov't or "public" plans. NO PLAN will be able to cover it.

And you only quoted a very selective piece of that paragraph:

A 2003 Guttmacher Institute study found that 13% of all abortions in 2001 were directly billed by abortion providers to private insurance companies (see Table 3 on page 20 here). Some antiabortion activists have misused this statistic to claim that insurance coverage of abortion is not widespread. However, direct billing does not equate to either extent of coverage or even use of coverage.

•Our finding included all women who obtained abortions in 2001, including the numerous women on Medicaid or those who were uninsured. If one looked only at privately insured women—the group relevant to the question at hand—the number would (by definition) be substantially higher than 13%.
•The 13% does not include women who obtain reimbursement from their insurance company themselves, rather than having their provider bill the insurer directly—a common occurrence because many abortion providers are not a part of private insurance networks.
•Some of the women whom our study identified as paying out of pocket likely had insurance coverage for abortion care, but may not have known they had it or chose not to use it for reasons of confidentiality. Given the stigma that still surrounds abortion, these women might not have wanted their insurer or employer, or the primary policyholder (like a spouse or parent), to learn that they had obtained an abortion.

[cynatnite]

14. Where does it say that insurance companies won't cover abortions in the amendment? n/t

[Unvanguard]

11. They can still cover abortion, they just have to have an identical non-abortion plan

for the subsidies.

At least that's my understanding.

[Justitia]

13. Wrong. A plan cannot be included if abortion is covered - period. Subsidies do not matter.

[Unvanguard]

16. Included in what? n/t

[Lars39]

2. Then they need to damn well start acting like it.

[Skittles]

3. define "better"

[cynatnite]

6. This is what you do...first close your eyes...

then think back.

The year is 2004. Bush just won - I mean stole - another election. The repukes were doing the whole anti-gay marriage ammendent attempt to get in the constitution. The repukes wanted to ban flag burning. They opened up the treasury for Halliburton and other corporate types. The repukes outed a CIA agent and ruined our military to worse than it was during Vietnam.

Now, tell me...which is better?

It's not perfect and never will be to your satisfaction, but I will never forget what those fucking bastards did in the years they had free reign of this country.

It will always be better when the repukes aren't in charge.

[Lindsey]

15. I'm astounded that some of the Democrats are focusing on

the abortion issue.(?). My understanding of the bill is that there is so much more good than bad. I have had two abortions myself. I paid for them myself and that was when I was quite poor. It was my fault that I got into those situations anyway. I was young and stupid and wasn't on birth control which was easily available to me. I don't even remember the abortions being that expensive but that was 25-30 years ago. I think I'll google this to find how much money we're talking about here. Maybe it's like in the thousands now.

And I know some folks will say I'm "missing the point". However, I'm looking at this from reality and the nuts and bolts of what we're talking about and not from an idealistic perspective. For God's sake, Roe V. Wade didn't get overturned.

[cynatnite]

19. The army would never have given me an abortion so I paid for it myself...

Didn't have a lot of money either since I was a single parent supporting a kid. I was stupid, too.

But yeah, you're right. People are acting like Roe V. Wade died when it didn't. It's still as intact as it was well before tonight.

[Hekate]

17. Amen. I don't feel like I'm looking at the underside of a bus, either. We have a lot of work to do

This is the country we live in, and sometimes the stupid hurts. Women not having access to full health care for all of their health needs is one of the stupids that hurts.

The Repubs and their stinking base have relentlessly tried to overturn Roe vs. Wade or render it meaningless by murdering doctors, bombing clinics, scaring women away, passing state laws to publish women's names and private medical information....

The fact is that women ALREADY don't have access in nearly every county in the nation. Rural and small town women have to travel, often considerable distances, to avail themselves of a perfectly legal procedure. Their absence from work, school, or home is duly noted by others-- so much for privacy.

I will never forget the Bush years either. The sonuvabitch enabled all of this to the fullest extent from the very day he entered office. We will be cleaning up after him for the rest of our lives.

This is what we are dealing with: a political reality in which half the Congress is willing to let EVERYONE do without health care in order to keep abortion coverage out of a health plan. My own very-pro-choice Congresswoman explained that she put forth an amendment early on to let the Hyde thing stand because she simply did not want the entire enterprise derailed by culture warriors.

We got something. It's not everything, but it is better than what we had before. Howard Dean, MD has said so.

Hekate

[cynatnite]

20. Yep, the shit does hurt and we're going to be cleaning up the muck for years to come...

the repukes left a hell of a mess. I don't expect perfect right off the bat and there are compromises that we have to swallow. We can't exactly ignore the repukes either...as much as I hate them sometimes, we still have to deal with them to a degree.

It's all about compromise and I don't mind that as long as we keep moving forward. This bill is one foot in the door and it's a small step. Everything else will come in a lot of little steps along the way. As long as I know that, there's hope for the future.

It'll happen. I've got faith...and I'm an atheist, too. :)

[Hekate]

21. It's kind of nice that FReeper heads are exploding though, isn't it?

:evilgrin:

Hekate

[cynatnite]

22. Their heads exploding will give me sweet dreams tonight...

:smoke:

[Unvanguard]

10. Indeed! n/t

[Lindsey]

18. I Googled abortion costs....

A lot of it depends on how far along in the pregnancy you are. It looks to range form $250 up to $1,500 depending on where you live and where you go. I find it difficult to believe that if someone truly wants an abortion, they would wait to get one in the later part of the pregnancy; they'd get it as soon as possible. So we're talking around $250-$300 (if the individual has a brain at all). Once again, I'm not talking about "the point of the matter". I'm talking about reality.

[Hekate]

23. "If someone really wants an abortion." Look, it's simply not available to rural and small town women

... thanks to the efforts of the violent anti-choice movement. Doctors murdered, clinic workers stalked, clinics bombed, and women threatened with having their names published by the state they live in. Clinics are just not there in most of the counties in this country now.

Rural and small town women now have to travel considerable distances to get a perfectly legal procedure done, and their absence from home, school, or work is duly noted by those around them--so much for privacy.

And that's the reality.

We have a LOT of work to do to gain health care for all of women's health care needs.

One other thing: my own highly intelligent, very aware sister was given bad birth control advice by her new GYN (he prescribed a contraceptive sponge) after the birth of her second child. When she got pregnant anyway, the next doc at the clinic scoffed that the sponge is notoriously unreliable, as though it were her own fault for being so dumb as to use it. Then the clinic (paid for out of her husband's insurance) proceeded to stall her at every turn when she wanted an abortion. They stalled her until the very end of her first trimester, making it as hard as they could, and only very grudgingly gave way. They made a bad experience truly horrible.

Hekate