Dennis Kucinich: Why I voted no on 3962 - A BAILOUT UNDER A BLUE CROSS

[debbierlus]

Thank you Dennis. I agree with every last word.

After voting against H.R. 3962 - Affordable Health Care for America Act, Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) today made the following statement:


“We have been led to believe that we must make our health care choices only within the current structure of a predatory, for-profit insurance system which makes money not providing health care. We cannot fault the insurance companies for being what they are. But we can fault legislation in which the government incentivizes the perpetuation, indeed the strengthening, of the for-profit health insurance industry, the very source of the problem. When health insurance companies deny care or raise premiums, co-pays and deductibles they are simply trying to make a profit. That is our system.


“Clearly, the insurance companies are the problem, not the solution. They are driving up the cost of health care. Because their massive bureaucracy avoids paying bills so effectively, they force hospitals and doctors to hire their own bureaucracy to fight the insurance companies to avoid getting stuck with an unfair share of the bills. The result is that since 1970, the number of physicians has increased by less than 200% while the number of administrators has increased by 3000%. It is no wonder that 31 cents of every health care dollar goes to administrative costs, not toward providing care. Even those with insurance are at risk. The single biggest cause of bankruptcies in the U.S. is health insurance policies that do not cover you when you get sick.


“But instead of working toward the elimination of for-profit insurance, H.R. 3962 would put the government in the role of accelerating the privatization of health care. In H.R. 3962, the government is requiring at least 21 million Americans to buy private health insurance from the very industry that causes costs to be so high, which will result in at least $70 billion in new annual revenue, much of which is coming from taxpayers. This inevitably will lead to even more costs, more subsidies, and higher profits for insurance companies — a bailout under a blue cross.


“By incurring only a new requirement to cover pre-existing conditions, a weakened public option, and a few other important but limited concessions, the health insurance companies are getting quite a deal. The Center for American Progress’ blog, Think Progress, states “since the President signaled that he is backing away from the public option, health insurance stocks have been on the rise.” Similarly, healthcare stocks rallied when Senator Max Baucus introduced a bill without a public option. Bloomberg reports that Curtis Lane, a prominent health industry investor, predicted a few weeks ago that “money will start flowing in again” to health insurance stocks after passage of the legislation. Investors.com last month reported that pharmacy benefit managers share prices are hitting all-time highs, with the only industry worry that the Administration would reverse its decision not to negotiate Medicare Part D drug prices, leaving in place a Bush Administration policy.


“During the debate, when the interests of insurance companies would have been effectively challenged, that challenge was turned back. The “robust public option” which would have offered a modicum of competition to a monopolistic industry was whittled down from an initial potential enrollment of 129 million Americans to 6 million. An amendment which would have protected the rights of states to pursue single-payer health care was stripped from the bill at the request of the Administration. Looking ahead, we cringe at the prospect of even greater favors for insurance companies.


“Recent rises in unemployment indicate a widening separation between the finance economy and the real economy. The finance economy considers the health of Wall Street, rising corporate profits, and banks’ hoarding of cash, much of it from taxpayers, as sign of an economic recovery. However in the real economy -- in which most Americans live -- the recession is not over. Rising unemployment, business failures, bankruptcies and foreclosures are still hammering Main Street.


“This health care bill continues the redistribution of wealth to Wall Street at the expense of America’s manufacturing and service economies which suffer from costs other countries do not have to bear, especially the cost of health care. America continues to stand out among all industrialized nations for its privatized health care system. As a result, we are less competitive in steel, automotive, aerospace and shipping while other countries subsidize their exports in these areas through socializing the cost of health care.


“Notwithstanding the fate of H.R. 3962, America will someday come to recognize the broad social and economic benefits of a not-for-profit, single-payer health care system, which is good for the American people and good for America’s businesses, with of course the notable exceptions being insurance and pharmaceuticals.”

[HughMoran]

1. .

:eyes:

[buchols]

I have a feeling

That he probably was one of the last to vote, and only voted against it once it was clear it would pass

[John Q. Citizen]

317. I don't know about that. Dennis is a stand up guy. He

pledged months ago to only support a bill with a strong public option.

I am without insurance and in the last 20 years, I've only had health insurance for about 18 months in 2003 and 2004.

And I would have voted against this bill because I don't believe it does any thing to make health care more affordable or available for Americans in the long term. In fact in the long term it's a very counter productive bill.

Yes it contains some short lived carrots.

But those hardly make up for the long term damage to middle and lower income Americans that are in that bill.

[truedelphi]

405. + 10. n/t

[ooglymoogly]

361. This may be true of folks like Hillery, who did the same on the

bankruptcy bill and of most of the congress sellouts; But it is not true of Dennis who has proven his bona fides over and over again. He is one of the very few we can trust.

[Go2Peace]

404. ONCE again DK posts hit the top of the list, proving that the naysayers are out of step

Most on this board understand and support Kucinich and appreciate his hard work.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

485. It's getting to the point that DK is the only congress person I trust. ...K&R

[billh58]

507. To do what,

absolutely nothing?

[ooglymoogly]

509. sorry wrong place

[kaehele]

371. cannot argue with what DK says n/t

[Name removed]

380. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theFrankFactor]

472. For The "Brilliant" and "Progressive" Dennis Haters - HR 676!!!!

http://www.hr676.org/12.html

Read it genius!

You think that's a Blue Dog Tea Bagger?

If you do you're an idiot of the highest order.

[theFrankFactor]

473. For The "Brilliant" and "Progressive" Dennis Haters - HR 676!!!!

http://www.hr676.org/12.html

Read it genius!

You think that's a Blue Dog Tea Bagger?

If you do you're an idiot of the highest order.

[theFrankFactor]

474. For The "Brilliant" and "Progressive" Dennis Haters - HR 676!!!!

http://www.hr676.org/12.html

Read it genius!

You think that's a Blue Dog Tea Bagger?

If you do you're an idiot of the highest order.

[theFrankFactor]

475. Posted Three Times in the Hopes of Penetrating the Blind Hatred.

[theFrankFactor]

476. Where''d the Huge Moran's Text Go?

[Johnboi70]

482. Your posts seem pretty hateful all by themselves. n/t

[billh58]

505. More like

perpetrating the blind devotion.

[billh58]

511. HR 676 was

first introduced in 2003 by John Conyers, and he has re-introduced it every year since:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Health_Insurance_Act

[WeDidIt]

2. FUCK Dennis Kucinich

His ass should now be primaried.

He is a traitor to his party every bit as much as the treasonous blue dogs.

Fuck his traitor ass.

[debbierlus]

9. Every last word he spoke is the truth...

Don't like it, don't kill the messenger.

Instead of bashing Kucinich, you might want to reserve your rage for the politicians who just sold your ass out to the corporate health industry giants.

[WeDidIt]

13. I'll be donating to his primary opponent

he's a dumb ass fuckhead.

All or nothing is a Republican game. He's a dumb shit.

[Maat]

183. Well, I'll double the amount of your donation ...

and donate to Dennis, for having the guts to vote the way he did.

[sabrina 1]

202. Me too and will use my email list to get as many others as I can

to do the same.

[DemBones DemBones]

235. So will I.

[Dr.Phool]

241. Dennis is the ONLY Congressman I donated to last year.

I'll double it this time. And, I live in Florida.

[ooglymoogly]

367. +1 nt

[ooglymoogly]

365. +1 nt

[spiritual_gunfighter]

293. I have already donated and will continue to do so

While you go on and continue to accept the status quo and call it Democratic.

[mod mom]

300. I will gladly continue to support Dennis because he repeatedly stands up to corporate interest

[billh58]

508. And may I ask

to what avail? What has DK actually accomplished with all of his petulant, indignant, grandstanding? That is, with the exception of his "folk hero" status among the 2% of Americans who blindly worship him?

[Loge23]

323. ...and what is the Democrat's game?

Make sure they don't offend any Republicans?
Play for the support of the same Republicans who would run them over if they had chance?
Water down every principle that Dems were elected on?

I voted for Health Care reform. Not a redirection of health care lobbyist money to Dems.

I pay $476 a month for garbage coverage. Thanks to this bill - and opinions such as yours - that will probably go up.

If the supporters of this party had any conscience, they would overwhelmingly support people like Dennis Kucinich who clearly does not drink the freakin' Koolaid of conciliatory politics.

But have no fear. The Repukes will soon be back in control (as if they ever were not).

[ooglymoogly]

368. +1 nt

[Cleita]

363. Wouldn't you be doing that anyway?n/t

[jgraz]

495. I'm guessing he'd usually be donating to his opponent in the general

We should take what little progress we can get with that one.

[ooglymoogly]

448. I'd say its more like nothing or nothing; Which shell is the pea

under, ooops you lose, you lose, you lose. Just wait till the masses learn there was never a pea under any of the shells to begin with; I'd guess torches and pitchforks will become the norm; And if the Whitehouse thinks the masses will not learn exactly how they have been sold down the river until 2013, in the last quarter of O's 8 years, is batting a sticky wicket that is covered in tar and feathers for the Dems if they continue on this path of who can eliminate the robust public option without getting caught; Burying calumny in a thousand pages just wont work.

[liberation]

453. Wow... who can argue with such a well composed and logical train of "thought"

... and I thought party uber alles was only a republican trait. LOL.

[Enthusiast]

462. I'll be donating to Dennis. nt

[tblue]

477. Uh huh. Sure you will.

[Better Believe It]

489. And that would be a "right-to-life" "centrist" Democrat who will vote with Republicans?

Now that's "smart" politics!

[jgraz]

493. All or nothing is definitely a Republican game

You play it well.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mithreal]

195. Treating fellow Progressives like this is boorish and adolescent

Would I be surprised if you try to apologize for just being overzealous or just all emotional?

Well others have strong feelings as well and your posts lately are destructive to the community.

[tblue]

479. Not to mention counterproductive.

[Xicano]

50. Tell it like it is debbierlus

Because some people around here love being slaves to wall street.

[slay]

186. Indeed debbierlus - yet watch the haters pile on

as Dennis stands up for what's right - instead they eagerly await the scraps that they, and the rest of us, will be "allowed" to have. It's like Michael Moore said: America has battered housewife syndrome. We just keep coming back for one more giant helping of corrupt corporate bullshit. Thank you sir, can I have another! Sigh. Dennis = a man ahead of his time. :patriot:

[debbierlus]

498. Amen

[tonysam]

398. It may be the truth, but he's not getting anything accomplished n/t

[provis99]

444. No, the Democrats who voted for this stupid bill are getting nothing accomplished.

[truedelphi]

411. Totally agree. But we are officially a society that cannot think straight.

"Hijackers" crash planes they don't know how to fly into buildings that can withstand such with no collapse -- American people must do something, anything. So we bomb to smithereens a country that had nothing to do with the attack. A nation that did not even have any "hijackers" naming that nation as their source.

Don't like our health care system? Hey, let's put together a 1,900 + page bill that mostly creates an "Insurance Industry Profit Protection Racket" and

While we are at it, let's include in that proposal red tape for those who need birth control, or abortion, or who miscarry. Let's see that women's rights are pushed back to the turn of the Twentieth Century. Women will now have to seek out the ghost of Margaret Sanger in order to get proper care.

[grytpype]

11. I despise that grandstanding little shit. He's our Michelle Bachman.

[HughMoran]

141. He's jumped the shark this time

I can't support his antics any more - this is unforgivable.

[Truth2Tell]

179. any more?

:rofl:

[John Q. Citizen]

312. I stand with Dennis Kucinich.

He actually votes the principles our party used to stand for.

Now, we seem to be more concerned with contributions from the health care industrial complex than we are about solving problems for middle and lower income Americans.

It's sad where have gone.

But, I'm confident if good men and women stand together and demand justice, we will get back to where we once were.

[John Q. Citizen]

If you want to spend your time hating, that's your decision.

Hope that works out real well for you.


Peace!

[Zambero]

491. I tend to agree with that analogy

Although "their" grandstanding piece of crap is exponentially worse than "ours".

[saracat]

12. Better a traitor to the party than a traitor to the people.

[WeDidIt]

15. He's a traitor to the people to

His bullshit asshole vote could ahve been responsible for 45,000 deaths next year.

The fuckiung treasonous asshole who wants blood on his fukced up hands.

[robinlynne]

76. NO actually the fighters like Dennis is the only reason there is ANY reform.

[WeDidIt]

105. BULLSHIT

Kucinich voted no. He gets precisely ZERO credit for health care reform.

[HughMoran]

109. Agreed

This is the final straw - I'm sick of his crap-on-Dems-faces grandstanding. Anybody who supports this little shit is auto-ignored from now on.

[Bluenorthwest]

261. Then please ignore me now

The 2008 Democratic Primary started for me with a speech from Dennis, in which everything he said was correct, and unlike Barack Obama, Dennis supports full equal rights for all, not just those approved by his superstitions and religion. Obama sees my family as less than equal, and you support him. Think that over as you think about how one builds an election win. Shall I use your standards, and ingnore all of his supporters and call him vicious names? Seems I have more reason to do it, as the man slanders my loved ones in the name of his 'god'. Think about how one holds an alliance. Or just puke on everybody, your choice.

[theFrankFactor]

321. Start With Me! I Don't Have a Taste For Sell-Out, Pussy-Ass Democrats Anymore.

Do what you have to do to get from here to there but don't forget where the fuck 'there' is!

[dixiegrrrrl]

355. Aww, gee. Guess i wll miss your other posts, they are often quite funny.

but...if you gotta put me on ignore, go for it.

Don't you see that by labeling the Health Bill argument as "Republicans are against it"
it made it almost impossible for good Dems to also vote against
"The Insurance Industry Profit Protection Act of 2009"

Since way back when, I have consistently written on these forums that we need is affordable Health CARE
NOT mandatory insurance premiums.

The whole screaming batshit insane tea bag crap was just a diversion to pass Pro-Insurance bills.
The Republicans may have voted no for the "wrong reasons", but a good reason to vote no was mandatory insurance profit.

Kucinich was one of the few who did not fall for it.

[RoccoR5955]

408. Put me on your fecal register.

I supported Kucinich in the primaries, and I support EVERYTHING he does for WE THE PEOPLE!

[Jim Lane]

419. I'm too late to be the first, but please add me to the list of Kucinich supporters

You might also consider that, if the progressives in the House automatically go along with any lame bill just because it has the veneer of reform, then the conservatives will have all the power. We need people like Dennis so that, in the conference, the House representatives can say, "No, we can't go along with that conservative provision in the Senate bill, or a few more progressives will side with Kucinich and we won't be able to pass the bill."

I'm really tired of how the leadership (including Obama) is always catering to the right-wingers because the right-wingers are willing to against the bill if they don't like it. I'm not angry at the right-wingers for exploiting this tendency -- I just wish our side would do it, too, to balance things out.

[kiva]

426. Please, put me on your list - thank you. n/t

[proReality]

433. I don't post that often, but...

add my name to your "auto-ignore" list. I support DK 150%.

[scarletwoman]

442. Add me to your list. I stand with Kucinich. (nt)

[tblue]

480. Me, too. Buh bye!!!

[Mithreal]

211. Zero credibility, I see your fellow whiner agrees. Big surprise there.

[bjb]

387. AMEN

[alarimer]

262. If you think this bill will actually help, you are delusional.

The "public option" (run by insurance companies) will make things WORSE, not better. This is a watered-down piece of shit bill that will not help ANYONE.

Fuck anyone who voted for this travesty.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Horse with no Name]

91. You actually might be more COMFORTABLE

at different websites since you seem to have problem with progressive ideals.
Another DU Buffoon, indeed.

[HughMoran]

99. Progress is getting healthcare reform passed

If Progressive means

stupid fucking grandstanding moron

... then no, I'm not with that. I've been a progressive for 40 years, so I don't need to listen to children.

[Algorem]

172. 40 years of progressivity and all you got is that photo of Saint Teddy.

[troubledamerican]

221. + 1

[Go2Peace]

237. Take some geritol grandpa and relax a bit

(I am an older guy to so don't think I am picking on you). But you are kind of going a little overboard and attack heavy.

[pattmarty]

250. A "true" liberal is a person with the ideals and beliefs of an................

..........FDR or LBJ. All you so called "progressives" think Hillary or Bill, or now even Obama is "progressive". Well you better get out your recent history books to see what a REAL liberal is. You "people" are DLC "progressives" and will be sorry maybe as soon as next November to see how shitty the final bill (YOU do know this is NOT the FINAL bill don't you?) is and how it will hurt the Dems. How soon you forget the "reform" of Medicare under Bush and how all the "progressives" were crying about huge give aways to Insurance companies? Well the final healthcare bill "this time" will be that bill on steroids. This is a fucking HUGE give away to insurance companies and it didn't have to be that way.

[theFrankFactor]

470. It Sure as Hell Doesn't Mean Sucking Corporate Dick and Calling it Progress!

A majority in both houses, a "Democrat" President and yet Max Bauchus is chairing this endeavor? Nancy The Shit-Head Pelosi and Harry the Bush-Lover Reid are "Progressives too huh? Some people are so used to the smell of BULL SHIT they can't smell it any more.

[nosmokes]

497. putting lipstick on a pig named Healthcare Reform doesn't make it

a healthcare reform bill worth passing.

[Unvanguard]

49. To betray the Party is usually to betray the people.

The exceptions are few and far between, and providing affordable health insurance to more people is not one of them.

[rapturedbyrobots]

345. that's just it.

it DOESN'T provide affordable health care to more people. the CBO's estimate is that the 'public option' will actually have higher premiums than private insurance...and it's supposed to be an option precisely for those who already can't afford private insurance. that kind of logic only makes sense to people in washington who don't give a shit about real people. so tell me again how people who can't afford insurance are supposed to magically come up with the cash to buy into this so-called public option?

[Unvanguard]

416. The public option is too weak to be very relevant. But there are other useful parts of the bill.

The subsidies, the exchange, the ban on discrimination on the basis of medical history.

The public option will have higher premiums because less-healthy people fearful of being poorly covered by private insurance will use it. It will not be a good option for people who have difficulty paying for it, unfortunately, but it will at least do some good for those it will cover.

[rapturedbyrobots]

461. again...

none of those things you mentioned guarantee anyone will get any health care. it only ensures health COVERAGE for a small percent of the un-covered population...and then not even at guaranteed affordable rates. in other words none of that means anything at all. the bill does however guarantee an expanded market for the insurance companies. this should rightly be called a health insurance reform, not health care reform. and i don't want to reform a private industry that exist solely to deny actual care for profit.

[Kitty Herder]

230. Yes. This isn't about the party.

It's about providing healthcare to those who need it. I don't believe this bill will do that.

[winyanstaz]

421. yup...

and especially when your party is rolling over and kissing ass and sticking it to the people.
Dennis votes on principles but it is easy to see some twits have no clue what principles are.

[Extend a Hand]

25. Dennis votes on principle

When mayor of Cleveland, Dennis stood up against the mob at great personal risk to keep the public utilities from being privatized. After the Enron debacle, people finally realized the great service he did for the city. I hope the incremental improvement model works out with this health care plan. Time will tell. I respect Dennis for his principled stand.

[WeDidIt]

29. Dennis votes like a Republican and claims principle

He's the worst Democrat on the Hill.

[Roland99]

35. Say WHAT?!?! Don't tell me you're a Blue Dog fan!

Kucinich is a PROGRESSIVE!

Not a corporatist, Repuke-lite!

[WeDidIt]

42. I'd take any Blue Dog on the hill over Kucinich

at least you have a chance to get one of their votes on the big ones.

You can always count on Kucinich to vote like a Republican on the important votes, then the little prick claims "principle".

I think he's really a Republican at heart and is just lying. His voting record certainly aligns with that belief.

[Roland99]

48. So, you're ok with a public option that isn't very public?

You're ok with MANDATES (which Obama campaigned AGAINST)?

[WeDidIt]

71. After over a century of talk, we finally get a bill passed in the House

I'll take it, no thanks to the prick, Kucinich (Elf-Keebler).

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeDidIt]

131. The last resort of one who has no argument

A Freeper accusation in flagrant violation of DU rules.

:eyes:

[Mithreal]

190. You have the audacity to mention DU rules?

[WeDidIt]

314. I violated nto a single rule of DU. n/t

[Mithreal]

378. Reread the rules, Einstein.

[WeDidIt]

427. Just reread for about the hundredth thime

not a single rule violated.

And none of my posts here deleted.

You stand corrected.

[Mithreal]

430. I question your comprehension skill

Lack of rule enforced does not prove innocence.

Your posts in these threads speak for themselves.

They are divisive, crude and uncivil.

Don't waste any more of my time with your childishness.

[WeDidIt]

437. My comments regarding Kucinich are nicer than those directed at Stupak

I remind you, Stupak is also a Democrat.

So there you go, you're setting a double standard. Comments about Democrats you don't like are fine but even less divisive comments about a Democrat you do like are not tolerated.

For the record, I hold Stupak in even higher contempt than I do Kucinich, but I believe BOTH MUST GO!

[Mithreal]

449. This response does not apply to my comments

[WeDidIt]

456. Yes, it did. n/t

[Mithreal]

459. Well, then an example of genuine irrelevance

Stupak is blatantly obvious in his attempts to push the American Taliban agenda, while Kucinich clearly voted for upholding Progressive principles.

So, you consider the two as similar in your argument? I can't tell if you are simply an ignorant type or willfully stupid.

[WeDidIt]

460. I consider the two IDENTICAL

in effect.

[Mithreal]

463. Then willfully stupid it is

[WeDidIt]

464. Apparently, you are.

This bill was all there was. IT was this bill or nothing.

Kucinich chose nothing just like the entire GOP caucus save one.

Kucinich and the blue dogs who voted against the bill are not a whit better than a Republican.

[CLANG]

483. DK was the only dem that pointed out the absurdity in this bill.

We need many more like him. Then we would get REAL change!

[WeDidIt]

486. The only absurdity near this bill

is Dennis Kucinich.

[Mithreal]

514. Proved my point unequivocally.

[tavalon]

228. The irony overfloweth

Please check the rules regarding talking down an elected Democrat.

[HughMoran]

299. Kind of a joke posting that

Since those promoting Dennis are talking down almost every Democrat BUT DK - lol.

[WeDidIt]

316. Primaries are sacrosanct

and criticism is perfectly fine under the rules.

Kucinich fucked up and deserve3s the Lieberman treatment. He is a phony and should be primaried next year.

[pattmarty]

252. Well that's great. You get shit, and declare fucking victory...................

...........Just REMEMBER, this is NOT THE FINAL BILL. Murphy's Law: If it can get worse, it will.

[John Q. Citizen]

302. Oh, poor baby. Did dennis get you all upset? Watch your blood pressure or

you might boil over and raise my health care costs.

Dennis won the only Republican seat in 1994.

He opposed NAFTA, which Clinton shoved down our throats and resulted in losing congress for the first time since Eisenhower.

I suggest learning history, and learning to appreciate how to vote in your own best interest.

It seems that's a problem for a lot of Americans, and not just for bush voters.

[harmonicon]

333. oh, nice - that's classy

Picking on someone's appearance who you don't agree with is always a way to win an argument. I guess you'd be ok DK if he'd said that he voted against the bill because everyone who was voting for it was a poo-poo face. That's an argument you'd understand, huh?

[winyanstaz]

420. a bill that kicks the tax payers in the teeth, is a give away to insurance companies..

and leaves women's health-care in the ditch.
And you are pathetically HAPPY for the crumbs.
sheesh...
And we can see by your post who the prick really is.

[Bluenorthwest]

263. It is also not optional

Not an option and not public, it is not a public option unless one is willing to say a dog is a doughnut for convenience as well.

[saracat]

98. So the Stupack voing dems were fine with you?

[WeDidIt]

108. The ones that voted yes on the final bill? YES!

Wihtout a start, you get nowhere, as evidenced by the last century.

Kucinich is as bad as any Republican when it comes to health care reform. He preferred the status quo to any passable reform, just like Republicans.

[saracat]

113. The ones that voted for Stupak.

[WeDidIt]

122. I'll take ANY Dem that voted for both Stupak AND the final Bill

over Kucinich any day of the week.

[saracat]

138. Okay. Just getting clear on that. So now Dems are supporting the

Hyde amendment, and banning the coverage of abortions by private insurers who participate in the exhange and making the Hyde amendment "permanent" are okay by you but any rep who doesn't like the HCR because it doesn't cover enough people is a jerk?

I acn understand Dems voting for HCR, though i believe it is a crappy bill. I understand why they had to do it but I cannot understand any Dem who voted for Stupak and I will peronally work with my pro-choice organizations to make sure they lose their seats no matter how they voted on HCR.

[WeDidIt]

157. Reality is, the bill would not have passed without Stupak

ergo, Stupak got the bill passed so that's fine by me.

No bill means no start. No start means we're right back where we were when Teddy Roosevelt first proposed health care reform.

I'll take a start over no start.

[saracat]

168. So Hyde being permanent is Okay? And private insurance banned from covering abortions under the

exchange is okay? I guess as a woman I really don't count. My health care doesn't have to be as good as a males. This can be viewed as the first step to abolishing reproductive rights as well. We are supporting that abortion be treated differently than any other medical procedure. I would have to pay for health care but reproductive care would have to be out of my own pocket. because the RW Loons of the Democratic Party think a medical procedure is unnecessary or immoral? Who made these creeps priests, or Doctors and why should the party support them? And the rest of the Democrats are okay with caving in to these people as political expediency.
I guess the democratic party really doesn't have any fundamental values left.It is really sad.

[WeDidIt]

309. Fighting the Hyde Amendment is a battle for another day. n/t

[sabrina 1]

210. You are exactly what is wrong with politics.

Your willingness to betray anyone, just to win, is why we never had healthcare for all Americans. You are far too timid, like the spineless Dems we elected, to be in politics.

Kucinich has the guts to fight for what is right, and it's a damn shame that he belongs to a sold out party of cowards, who even when they have a majority, are still too scared to do what the people wanted them to do.

Have you looked at the most recent polls regarding the Public Option among ALL Americans? This bill will keep many of the base of the party home in 2010 as it did last week. Dems lost the Virginia Governor's mostly because of Dem candidate not supporting the Public Option. Much of the base just stayed home.

Thanks for giving us a Republican Majority in 2010 and beyond. Ignoring the will of the people will cost them.

[WeDidIt]

311. Oh BULL SHIT!

Politics is the art of compromise in order to progress your agenda.

Kucinich is unwilling to compromise to progress the agenda of health care reform, ergo, Kucinich is an obstacle to health care reform and is doing more to help the insurance companies preserve their monopolies than any Democrat who voted Yes on Stupak and yes on the final bill.

In other words, Kucinich is the stooge of the insurance executives.

[sabrina 1]

393. The old talking points used by the DLCers.

'Politics is the art of compromise'. Only when you are in the minority. That's when you might have to compromise.

Politics is the art of convincing people to vote for you. That's the only 'art' that matters. Let them compromise to the people. But not once were the people even included in this whole process. Big mistake in politics.

However, that little phrase you just quoted comes from political operatives whose main goal is not to get the things done that need to be done. Their goal is to stay in power and to profit from it.

Please stop repeating it, it makes you look and sound like a DLC operative, like Rahm Emanuel and his ilk. But then, once the DLC was invited into this administration, this is exactly the kind of excuse we expected to hear. Thanks for confirming everyone's fears.

I am not a politician nor a professional political operative. I am not interested in their games. I am an ordidnary person, like millions of others, who expect those I support to work for ME. NOT to compromise with the rightwing that the people threw out.

These cliches are old and stupid. Dems were given a huge majority not to bow down to Corporations but to fight. They got this bill passed with no Republicans, they could have done the same with a Medicare for All bill. Even my family members who are Republicans, would have supported that. Face it, you've either been had, or you don't care. But those of us who care, cannot no longer be counted on to campaign for a party that compromises before they even begin to fight.

[billyoc]

423. Actually, those are the *current* DLC talking points.

:hi:

[WeDidIt]

428. Progressives ARE in the mnority

Progressives are even smaller a minority than conservatives.

You might want to look up the term "coalition" as broad coalitions are required for a party to enter a majority position.

And the DLC canard is just that, a bogey man pulled out when you have no argument.

[sabrina 1]

432. So where was this broad coalition in the passage of this bill?

Only one Republican could be persuaded, despite the numerous cave-ins to their demands, mandates eg, to support it?

How were Republicans when in the majority able to get their wars started, cut taxes, get their agenda passed, increase miliatry spending etc?

The answer is because they had Democrats supporting every vile bill they passed.

Your argument might work, if we ever saw some compromise from Republicans on bills they abhor.

Remember those 12 Democrats who voted for the abhorrent Military Commisssions Act? The bill that removed the right to Habeas Corpus? Why did they do that? What principle were they upholding when they got on board for such a vile piece of legislation? Was that 'the art of compromise' at work? Well, excuse me if I think standing up for Habeaus Corpus trumps compromise of that sort every time.

Would a single Republican compromise on something so against their core beliefs as that bill should have been to Democrats'?

The only compromising I ever see is from Democrats, whether they are in the majority or the minority. If this is the 'art of politics' I see only one party practicing it, and I see this country sliding even further to the right as a result of all this 'art'.

Show me a single important piece of legislation that has passed, that the Dems supported, where Republicans made the same kind of compromises Dems make all the time. And since the proof is there, in every single, rotten bill from Republicans that has Dem signatures on it, which all of them have, how is this working for us, this 'art of politics'? When it's practiced by only one party?

Let me know when both parties get that message. Until then, all I see is this country losing rights that were hard fought for and if this is your explanation for that state of affairs, I say it's time to make NEW rules, regarding the 'art of compromise' because it sure isn't working for us.

[WeDidIt]

434. The broad coalition was within the Democratic Caucus

Even some conservative Democrats voted for it.

The vast majority of the yes votes came from moderates as the vast majority of the Democratic caucus is moderate.

[sabrina 1]

452. The leadership, if it's worth anything at all, is supposed to be

able to get its own party's votes on important legislation. If someone refuses to do that, the party can primary them in the next election.

This phrase, 'compromise is the art of politics' is nothing more than DC rhetoric, unless you mean WE make the other guy compromise. Every time I hear this, it is supposed to make me feel good about Dems always being the ones to compromise.

And why, btw, since Dems as I pointed out above compromise ALL THE TIME, even when in the majority, can they not get more than ONE Republican to vote with them, and he only did so, I'm hearing now, because Dems compromised, once again, on abortion?

If this 'art' worked so well, Dems should have been able to make it work for them and get at least three or four Republicans to vote for their bill, shouldn't they?

How many Dems did Republicans get to vote for that abortion amendment? A LOT more than the one who voted for the Dem bill!!

Looks like this 'art' works well for the other side, which is why I'm all for abandoning it as a failed strategy. Otoh, I'm beginning to believe that Dems actually are not looking for compromise, as far too many of them actually agree with Republicans, which means their awful capitulating, eg, on the MCI, was not capitulating at all, but rather agreement.

[MessiahRp]

465. +1,000,000

No fucking shit!

Why the hell do we cave to Republicans on every single bill when they almost always vote a complete party line lockstep against the bill anyway?

Fuck that. If the bill is going to pass without a single Republican congressman then it should be a wholly progressive bill that isn't a giveaway to corporate interests and rather something that might actually work.

However HughMoran (so aptly named) and WeDidIt and the like are such clowns that they can't see the forest for the trees and would rather declare an empty victory than work for some sort of legitimate system change. And when the rest of us are FUCKED years down the road because of their idiotic simplistic "victory", it will be the Democrats' fault that a Republican plan is what passed.

Rp

[Duncan]

356. He voted how he said he would all along.

Thats all there is to it.

[TheCML]

198. Yep he sure votes like a Republican

Except that part about the Patriot Act, the Iraq war and gay rights. But who cares right? They are only minor details, the only thing that matters is that we pass a bill thats called "health care reform", who cares that there is going to be a huge chunk of people left out, as long as we can say we did something.

[sabrina 1]

207. Well, that explains your anger at Kucinich. You're a Blue Dog

supporter, and we know who they support. No wonder they got on board for this bill tonight. It is a Windfall for Private Industry.

[Go2Peace]

239. You sound like a child throwing a tantrum. You won't make your point like that.

[theFrankFactor]

327. Yes you will and you did. Blue Dog = SHITHEAD. Republican Moles - Get the fuck out already.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

282. OK, you have just placed yourself on the side of the bought-and-paid-for

corporate pseudo-Democrats.

Fine.

Thank you for being so honest.

[theFrankFactor]

329. Ha, ha... That's a Joke Right? Dennis a Republican! No one with a fucking ounce of grey matter would

say that seriously. Now, Blue Dogs? There's your fucking guarantee that Democrats can't form a true majority. Because they're not all Democrats! See?

[pattmarty]

251. Have any proof of that, Mr Republican? I call you that because............

.............you said he's the "worst Democrat", so you must be a Republican teabagger. Go on over to Worldnut daily, there they will welcome an errant "progressive" like yourself with open arms.

[Bluenorthwest]

264. Obama opposes equal civil rights for all

as do the Republicans. He is opposed to human rights. He favored the Patriot Act twice. He treats W like a peer not a parolee. Obama voted with the GOP and Video Frist about Terry Schiavo. He voted against the Uniting American Families Act.
Dennis supports equal rights for all, like a Democrat, he voted against the so called Patriot Act, and he is correct that the Insurance Companies are the problem. Obama is wrong about reform like he is wrong to favor discrimination against minorities he does not like. Dennis says we are all equal, Obama says we are not all equal.
Reality is not so easy to chew up and spit out on your neighbors as your spin might be.

[RoccoR5955]

412. Bite your tongue!

He is probably one of the most left leaning members of congress today!

[theFrankFactor]

471. Like Republican Health Care Plan HR 676 by Conyers and KUCINICH!!!???? Too Stupid to Believe!

[ecstatic]

40. You left out a lot of his Cleveland history, which is available for anyone to look up

[WeDidIt]

92. Oh, you measn back when he was anti-choice

:eyes:

[ecstatic]

95. That and much, much more nt

[NorthCarolina]

290. You just tipped your hand with that comment. Obviously a visitor from Free Republic n/t

[Ikonoklast]

330. And by doing so, he put the city into default, costing the taxpayers

of the city of Cleveland millions more in interest paid on high-risk bonds they had to issue, for years after that.


He stood on his principles then, too.

[Algorem]

60. really deep stuff.

[HughMoran]

110. Your in-depth rebuttal really added to the conversation as well

:P

[Sebastian Doyle]

65. So when a Democrat actually ACTS like a Democrat, you want to vote him out?

Sounds like you're the one with the problem, not Dennis.

[WeDidIt]

81. Yeah, because voting with Republicans is Soooooo Democratic

:eyes:

Fuck the little prick.

[Sebastian Doyle]

97. Democrats are NOT supposed to be the party of corporate fellation

And that's what just passed the House... one huge blowjob for United Healthcare, Cigna, BlueCross and the other fucking criminals.

[WeDidIt]

125. So you prefer the stattus quo?

Kucinich obviously does as evidenced by his vote along with the Republicans.

[Sebastian Doyle]

130. No, I prefer REAL reform

see the signature.

[WeDidIt]

133. Nope, you prefer the status quo

because anything besides this bill is the status quo and nothing else would have passed.

What finally passed squeaked by on the most bare of margins,

I live in reality. Kucinich lives in fantasyland.

[Sebastian Doyle]

137. Don't tell me what I think

That shit might work in cheerleader training camp, but not with me, thanks.

[WeDidIt]

140. You supported voting no on this bill

ergo, you supported the status quo because nothing else would pass.

[rapturedbyrobots]

349. a few months ago

everyone said this wouldn't pass. and it did. so stop pretending you know what would and wouldn't happen if people actually grew a pair and stood up for true reform and real progressive principles they were elected to represent.

[dflprincess]

160. This bill just reenforces the status quo

by protecting the insurance companies.

[frylock]

373. dems vote with republicans all the time dumbnuts..

usapatriot, iwr, etc. you are truly an idiot.

[Ignis]

512. Bingo. We don't care what you're voting on...

As long as you vote for the right "team."

If Dennis voted against yet another war, he'd be a horrible, horrible person if the war had a (D) behind it. :eyes:

[Deja Q]

118. Well, if he reads what you just wrote, I doubt he'll want to have sex with you.

:shrug:

[HughMoran]

142. hah!

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

135. Right. Fuck him for putting people over politics.

What an inconvenient @ss.

[HughMoran]

144. He put his grandstanding selfish little troll self over HIS PARTY

Fuck him - he's not a Dem any more - now he's like most of his zombie followers in detaching himself from the Democratic party.

[dflprincess]

158. Party over principle?

I never liked that attitude much.

[HughMoran]

162. No PRINCIPAL & PARTY as ONE

Dennis stabbed his party in the back when we needed him most. If you're so obcessed with principal, you have to love the Republicans who state that all of their votes for hate are on "principal". No lame arguments are going to sway me - Dennis jumped the shark tonight and his star is fading.

[saracat]

169. Not anymore. there were no principle involved in the Stupak Amendment

or those that supported it.

[Bluenorthwest]

266. No partisan is a real patriot

And by the way, the word is spelled 'principle'. 'Principal' is a first, such as the head of a school. You can avoid that mistake in future by thinking of your school principal, who was a prince of a pal, get it?
The idea that principle and party are one is utterly bankrupt and in fact without principle.

[harmonicon]

334. if Kucinich's principles are not those of the party, I wouldn't be a Democratic voter

There are very few Dems who make me feel comfortable with the party, and Kucinich is one of them. It is because of his principles and those of Howard Dean that first made me feel any compulsion to vote for a Dem, and to continue to do so. Without people like them, I'd abandon the party, as would millions of other voters.

[brentspeak]

165. You've convinced me. I'll write out a check to the CEO of Blue Cross right now

And sign it "Total Sucker."

That'll show Kucinich not to flap his gums and badmouth insurance companies and Wall St.

[saracat]

173. Hey, I write a check to them every month for over $1200. I am a good

Democrat and my donations should count! I am helping out the party aren't I? I used to donate directly to the Democratic Party but now that I can't do both I just pay my premiums to Blue cross. It still counts. I know my candidates are being taken care of.:sarcasm: :rofl: But I do seriously write them a $1200 check and I have a huge deductable. And ain't nothin gonna change soon.

[autorank]

469. It will get worse

I have little "faith" in "change" unless Congress makes things worse for citizens, which they
have and will.

The two big issues here are corporate bailouts for the crappy insurance companies and the absolutely
cynical b.s. of the public option as portrayed.

It's all one party now, the Money Party wiht the Democratic and Republican wings. They could care
less about people and their needs. They're more interested in killing around the globe than they
are funding real health reform. 34,000 troops to Afghanistan but we get a lousy bill. Who do they
think that they're kidding.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

161. Kucinich is a hero; you, on the other hand, are a zero

[earth mom]

189. NO-FUCK The Insurance Industry and Corporate America who are the ones that REALLY run this country!

:puke:

[Mithreal]

191. Flamebaits and acts like a troll? Probably a socalled moderate.

[sabrina 1]

201. Your post just helped me remember to send him some

money, and to work hard to keep him in Congress even though I do not live in his District. Thanks for the reminder, we need more like him and if we had them, this bill would have been what every other country in the civilized world has, a Single Payer system.

This was a victory for the Private Insurance Industry. They got a windfall tonight, courtesy of the Democratics. The same Democrats who handed over a trillion dollars to Wall St.

I don't recognize this party anymore. Dennis is a true Democrat.

[Fading Captain]

203. LOL Traitor to the Party? The Party Fucked US AGAIN. LIKE NAFTA

And like all the other CORPORATE FUCK OVERS delivered by the Democratic Party since Clinton took office.

[Toucano]

271. +1

Dead on!

[davidwparker]

328. +2

[JackRiddler]

205. Notice how the fuck-fuck discussion of this subthread completely avoids...

any of the issues Kucinich brought up? He lays out exactly why mandates without a public option help to impoverish many so as to further enrich the very entities causing the problem in the first place.

One gets the impression many of the complainers didn't spend a minute to read the OP.

Juvenile scatalogy, cheerleading for an imaginary team, responses that take four seconds to write. Hit and run with maximum unpleasantness - just make a stinkbomb all around the heretic idea. Mission accomplished! Roll like trolls.

[Bluenorthwest]

267. I too have noted and pointed out the degeneration of

the lexicon of some posters. No facts, just fucks. No meaning, just being mean. Devoid of content, made of a fabric of adjectives and taunts.

[JackRiddler]

270. It also shows a bullying (if in this case powerless) spirit.

Thanks for your comment.

[Bluenorthwest]

273. the bully is always powerless

that is why they bully. The lashing out and the childish lexicon they begin to use springs up when they themselves can not find the center, the facts and reasons for their 'positions'. This leaves them frustrated and angry, having to promote a thing they do not understand, a thing they do not really support or like. So they say fuck.

[Greyhound]

214. It's a bi-annual tradition and he wins every time. His constituents love him because

they know he will never sell them out.

[murdoch]

229. "Traitor to the party"? Like Trotsky?

The Democratic party is awful, from the Blue Dogs to the DLC to whatever.

Like Al Sharpton said "We never got our 40 acres and a mule, so we rode this jackass as long as we could"

My loyalty is to working people not "the party", comrade.

[Go2Peace]

234. Why do the people that defend the reform bill the hardest always have to insult everyone?

Do you really think that helps you make your point?

[Bluenorthwest]

269. They have no points to make and do not know the facts

so they hurl epithets and vulgarities as an attempt to cover the lack of content or their ability to answer any questions about that which they promote with vigor.

[RadiationTherapy]

242. Yeah! FUCK his traitor ASS -- UUURRRRGGH!!

I look at what Dennis said and what you wrote, and I am pretty sure I am comfortable having Dennis as an elected congressperson and you as an anonymous, meaningless message board ranter.

I am not certain how much time and effort you put into conceiving your word choices, but image management is important.

[elias7]

254. You are so misguided. You must be new

DK is a champion of the people, always has been. He is the purist progressive we have. Don't say fuck him, as he is one of the few (like Feingold) who will not compromise the will of the people for political expediency.

[bstender]

322. rube

how can you feel any sense of accomplishment with the "public option"? do you really feel that the Dems fought for your interests here? sorry, but it is business as usual

[Cherchez la Femme]

343. is that Ted Kennedy on your icon?

Man, you have a LOT of nerve!

Some people here don't know bupkus, and still run their mouth
leaving no question as to their mental acuity, rather lack of. :puke:

[lxlxlxl]

382. who are you?

the bill is not the healthcare reform people were fighting for all of this time. either counter what dennis said or stop calling names

[Go2Peace]

386. I can't believe the mods have not deleted that post yet.

It is far beyond TOS.

[rollingrock]

388. The problem is, this bill is a big step backward

its not even a minor improvement. its a gift to the insurance companies and does nothing to help struggling Americans workers.

[RoccoR5955]

406. Your comment leads me to TRIPLE my donation to Kucinich.

Because you do not know a real stand-up guy, who works for WE THE PEOPLE, like Dennis Kucinich!

[ooglymoogly]

446. And may I return that kindly jesture of idiocy

with many, many returns

[Gman]

458. LOL! Couldn't agree more. I'm sick of the purists fucking this whole thing up

the purists could fuck up a 2 car funeral.

[ooglymoogly]

510. halfWedidit; I suppose having half your wits is better than having none

as long as you do not parade those few wits around the debating table.

[rwheeler31]

3. As much as I like Dennis that was stupid.

[Libertas1776]

4. Hear! Hear!

I tip my hat to the venerable congressman from Ohio.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Libertas1776]

16. You're entitled to your opinion.

but it's not like your gonna see this anyway.

[saltpoint]

5. I'm pretty much done defending Dennis Kucinich. I don't like brats and

Kucinich has been behaving like one for a while now.

[aquart]

6. Since we had the votes, I allow him his principles.

But all or nothing is NOT how democracy works.

[rapturedbyrobots]

350. isn't asking

EVERY democrat to vote the party line...wait for it...all or nothing?

[The Magistrate]

7. Of Course, Ma'am: He Might As Well Be A Republican On Most Important Votes

[HughMoran]

Absolutely

I'm sick of his antics - all for the support of some wild-eyed DUers and not much else.
:eyes:

[Algorem]

55. Vttt!

[The Magistrate]

68. Allow Me To Repeat, Sir: He Might As Well Be A Republican On Most Important Votes

He can no more be relied on for passing legislation than the lowest blue dog. My attitude towards people who will not vote as a bloc when the chips are down is the same whether their cavail comes from the right or the left.

[Algorem]

77. Vttt! II

[WeDidIt]

82. +1000 Sir

Primary Kucinich.

[Algorem]

111. been done,send all your monies to the next dino to try.

[The Magistrate]

128. By 'DINO', Sir, You Clearly Mean Rep. Kucinich, Who Certainly Does Often Vote With The Republicans

It would be good to replace him with someone who voted with the Party....

[debbierlus]

146. Oh good. Then, we can have a total corporate party with no voices of dissent

And, we can all march in lockstep to support 'The Party'....

How very Bushbot of you....

Silence the voices that speak the truth, and primary them with good soldiers.

That is DISGUSTING.

[The Magistrate]

151. A 'Dino' Is A 'DINO', Ma'am, Whether From the Right Or Left

Democrats who vote with the Republicans deserve denunciation: the 'Yea' and "Nay' columns have no space for 'reason why', and do not because it does not matter a tinker's damn. All that counts is the total in either column....

[Bushknew]

376. Stop being a Dembot, Sir. This bill helps the insurance companies more than the people.

The people are more important than the party, "Sir".

[The Magistrate]

379. The Bill, Sir, Has Many Flaws, But It Is What We Have Got, And Can Serve As A Start To Better Things

It is important to break the inertia, and contrive movement that must tend to the direction we all desire.

Rep. Kucinich ought to have cast a 'yea' vote. His 'nay' is no different from anyone else's.

[HughMoran]

152. Oh come on

Nobody believes the crap you're spewing - it's all inflammatory bullshit designed to insult our intelligence. Personally, I'm fucking sick of YOUR grandstanding.

[grantcart]

193. Oh the little Trotskyite brigade we have thinks its inspirational.

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Algorem]

181. those high class foods are clogging your brain tubes,your majesty.

[The Magistrate]

192. When You Manage To Construct An Argument, Sir, By All Means, Press On And Present It

It is a fact that Rep. Kucinich often votes with the Republicans on important Bills. When people like Schuler or Skelton do this, it angers me, and many others here, and we simply apply the same standard to Rep. Kucinich we do to any other member who votes with Republicans on an important bill.

Your job, if you are serious about disagreeing with this, is to present a reason why it is fine for one person to vote with the Republicans, but wrong for another to do so, that has sufficient weight to alter anyone's view.

[Algorem]

209. is it stuffy and dusty in here or is it just you?

[The Magistrate]

213. Still Cannot Fashion An Argument, Eh, Sir?

"For the Snark was a Boojum, you see...."

[Algorem]

504. argue with your ass. you don't even know what a dino is.

[The Magistrate]

516. It Took You All Of Sunday To Come Up With That Junior-High Sputter, Sir?

You need to find an outlet for your energies more suited to your capabilities....

[bahrbearian]

260. Madam you are plain wrong in linking DK to the Republicans

This Bill though written mainly by Dem's, has 74 Republican Amendments, gives control of everyones Health-Care to the Insurance Companies. Like the Repugs and DittoDems want. The Republicans voted No because this bill is doomed to fail. No real Competition, no relief to the Middle Class. When the voters turn on the Obama and the Dems in 2010, it will be the republicans pointing out the flaws in the bill and the flaws are the ones that they demanded and we bent over and handed them. You would think this party could at least make a stand against Corporate run Health Care

[The Magistrate]

375. Rep. Kucinich, Ma'am, Voted With the Republicans On this Crucial Legislative Trial Of Strength

People can try all they like to blink that away, but it is a fact, and will remain. People who think Democrats in Congress should vote with Democrats will be angered by his actions, just as much as they are by any other Democrat who cast a 'nay' vote along with the Republicans last night.

[Turborama]

478. "The Republicans voted No because this bill is doomed to fail."

No, the RepubliCONs voted no because they want President Obama to fail and will do anything they can to make that happen. They'll vote no on everything the Democrats put forward, whether it's good for the country or not.

[Unvanguard]

94. +1000 more.

This is ridiculous self-aggrandizement and nothing more. People who see more in it need to have driven home to them the difference between what would be best and what is actually possible--and the very real effects ignoring that difference has on people's lives.

[Barack_America]

129. .

:applause:

[Cherchez la Femme]

352. Vote for it becauses ir;s a Democratic bill

even though the bill is pure shit?

I care for the people, not the party
and Dem's don't seem to care much for the people anymore; even though they used to long ago.

Fortunately there IS another place to go,
and if there wasn't, one would surely spring up after watching Democratic antics these past few years.

[The Magistrate]

377. You Would Likely Not, Ma'am, Have Much Liked the Democratic Party Long Ago Either....

Politics is what it is, and functions within limits stricter by far then revolutionary aspirations. The bill is far from ideal, but it is a start, that can be built on in future. Rep. Kucinich should have voted for it. When the thing is tallied up, he behaved no differently than the lowest 'blue dog': he voted with Boehner and Cantor and with Army's mob of 'tea-baggers'.

[Cherchez la Femme]

436. MY Democratic Party

fought for, and won, Civil Rights, Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, et. al.
Yes, I DO approve of them.

As for a "start" that's recent bullshit, just like the Medicare Prescription plan -- what's changed about that? I wrote downthread where AARP touted 'it's a start' too, and are now selling INSURANCE packages of their own attempting to make up what was taken away from the Medicare recipients. What's 'changed' from this 'start'? Nothing
except more insurance companies making more profits.
These 'too big to fail' corps who make crazy profits, plunder their own companies while screwing the lower echelon employees along with their clients, then get bailed out by THE TAXPAYERS - WE THE PEOPLE
while we continue to individually get fucked.

And nothing will change in the future with this bill either, except after the Senate gets through with it it'll be even worse.

You either do it RIGHT or don't do it at all!
And just because Kucinich voted No doesn't mean he voted for the same reasons the Repukes did.
Is that too complex for some morans to comprehend??

Otherwise it's all bullshit, it's just another huge gift to corporations, FORCING us to buy something at their accelerating, profit-driven rates. Mark my words, rates will just exponentially increase.
I'm next expecting to see a Dem bill mandating that everyone become millionaires or they'll be fined or imprisoned... same penalties you'll receive if you don't, by law, purchase this load of hogwash from for-profit insurance companies.
It makes as much sense as this pathetic charade instead of just providing the populace with Medicare.
But no, we the taxpayers aren't supposed to reap any benefits of which we actually PAY for!

Democrats used to stand for something, now they just ape what the soulless bosses tell them all for lining their own pockets. Stealing from the poor to pay the rich.
These god-damned new Democrats act just like the god-damned Republicans did: quote talking points and propaganda, vote party line, vilify the opposition and above all DON'T THINK -- I hated them for those actions, and I should praise Dems for it?

Not in this lifetime.

[The Magistrate]

440. You Might, Ma'am, Want To Look Back a Little On Your Own

And read some of the criticism from the left directed at President Johnson's 'Great Society' measures, and the reach and form of the Civil Rights Acts, and also the extensive criticism from the left directed at President Roosevelt's New Deal....

"The song remains the same...."

[Cherchez la Femme]

466. Sure it remains the same

There was bitching, but GOOD stuff actually went through that even the most rabid RW'ers would scream to high heavens if any was taken away from them.

Look Mr. M, we have all 3 branches of government now, and THIS was the best we could do?!
That is what is most unbelievable.

You don't think that is in the least bit incredible and worth of strong remark?

And I'll bet you $100 bucks right now that in the future Dennis Kucinich will be praised for this vote -- just as he was for the Iraq vote and many others which our Dem pol's were in lockstep behind.
And that's a very sad thing


And please kindly notice I have not even begun to voice what this bill has done to women... I'm avoiding it because it will be very, very unpleasant to read here.

But it is not forgotten nor forgiven.

[Prana69]

488. That's a BS argument ....

By that logic, if the House Democrats proposed a bill that stated that every 10 yead old child bend over and take one up the a** for Uncle Sam, Democratic House members would be bound by party affiliation to support it.

Your logic gives no consideration to the substance and content of the bill in question. Only that Democrats proposed it, so Democrats must vote for it.

It assumes that the bill has outcomes of value to the people. That is questionable.

Kucinich has been clear and consistent in his opposition to this bill. And he remained clear and consistent right up to the vote. He knows this is BS legislation that will not improve health outcomes for anyone.

To suggest that "anything is better than nothing", and "we can work on improving health care in future" is delusional. How about actually working on improving it now?

P69er

[The Magistrate]

492. No, Sir, Unlike Your Imagings of Wholesale Of Child-Rape, It Is A Cogent Argument

When yu have something to say that is not a masturbatory fantasy, feel free to try again.

"My god, man, slap yourself and thing!"

[Prana69]

496. Confirms it.

Ad hominem argument in response.

That all you've got isn't it?

P69er

[The Magistrate]

503. If You Say So, Sir....

"I'm going home now. Someone bring me some frogs and some bourbon."

[HamdenRice]

243. EXACTLY! +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1

[Selatius]

244. He voted correctly on some very big issues. He voted against going to war in Iraq.

While many other Democrats simply went along.

[Bluenorthwest]

272. So when Obama voted with GOP on Terry Schaivo

and with the GOP against the Uniting American Families Act, for the Patriot Act, and when he speaks against my family as if we are not a real family according to his superstitions, all of that is what? Being a Democrat? Schaivo? Remember that one?
And Obama opposes equal civil rights for all Americans. Supports for others what he would have rejected for his own.
Dennis does not think my family is evil, Obama does, so you stand with that if it makes you feel cozy. I'll stand with the non bigoted Dennis and Elizabeth. You and the Obamas can go to Church and pray my gay away, ok?
Affectations are not the same as content. Sir.

[JetCityLiberal]

338. Prove it

Link it.

Any good moderator would require links to broad brush attacks like yours.

Link me the important votes he votes with rethugs on and link his responses to his votes with rethugs.

[Major Hogwash]

348. No, you're wrong - some Republicans voted with Dennis; not the other way around

And when making sense in America returns, the Republicans will once again agree with Dennis.

Dennis doesn't vote party line votes.
Never has, never will.

He votes for what is right, a lot more than ANY Republican.

[The Magistrate]

381. No, Major: He Voted With Them

In doing so, he acted no differently than the lowest 'blue dog', by the only measure which counts in a Legislature, the final tally of yeas and nays.

[Jim Lane]

445. I disagree with you because not all "No" votes are the same.

First, I thank you for expressing your position rationally, without resorting to the "Fuck you Dennis" mode of so many of those who agree with you. I promise, in return, not to call you a DLC troll, but to try to explain my disagreement.

You write, "In doing so, he acted no differently than the lowest 'blue dog', by the only measure which counts in a Legislature, the final tally of yeas and nays."

First, this wasn't a final tally. There is not the slightest chance that the Senate will pass this bill in precisely this form. The Senate will probably pass something, but it will be different, and the matter will then go to a conference committee.

If the conservative Democrats are willing to defy the party and vote against a bill they don't like, while the progressives feel obligated to vote for any piece of trash that's labeled "public option" and/or is endorsed by Obama, then the conference will be all about placating the conservatives. With Dennis's vote, at least the House conferees have some basis for saying, "We can't move this any further to the right or other progressives will join Kucinich and bolt, and we won't be able to pass it."

Jim Cooper said, "This bill will get better in the Senate." () And people call Kucinich unrealistic! The Senate Finance Committee bill didn't have a public option at all, not even the enfeebled one in the House bill. There's a real danger that what comes out of the conference committee -- the bill on which we will see "the final tally of yeas and nays" -- will be worse than the House bill. Kucinich has done what he could to avert that danger. "No" votes aren't all the same at this intermediate step because their effect depends on part on the legislator's stated reasons for voting "No".

Second, there's the more difficult question of how legislators should vote in the actual final tally. Here there are two main issues. First, would this bill, examined in isolation, do more good than harm? It would impose some reforms on the for-profit insurers but also force everyone (or almost everyone) to submit to the will of those buccaneers. Reasonable people can disagree about whether this is an improvement.

Beyond that, we can't examine the bill in isolation; it's also important to consider what effect it would have on the health-care struggle down the road. Would it be a first step, smoothing the way toward a better system and eventually speeding the establishment of single-payer? Or would it entrench the private-insurance-based system of health care, making the insurance companies bigger and more powerful (and with more employees and more revenue from which to make campaign contributions), while helping so few people as to give any governmental involvement a bad name? On this point, I'm regretfully inclined to be pessimistic. When people go to the polls in 2010 and 2012, most will have felt the burdens of this bill and few will have enjoyed significant benefits. I think that Republicans and Blue Dogs who opposed it are going to be crowing that they were right, and that their crowing will find many a receptive ear. The result will be that some progressives will be defeated and some borderline Dems will scurry to the right in panic. Any attempt to improve health care in the near future will be answered by, "Let's see how well the 2009 reform works first."

Politically, I would rather be in the position of having a good reform bill lose, so that we could go after the Blue Dogs who wouldn't support a genuine public option. Yes, that would sacrifice whatever short-term improvements might result if this bill were passed, but it's far from clear that there would be any net improvement, even aside from the longer-term effects.

[The Magistrate]

494. We Would Seem In Agreement On Some Points, Sir

There is much that is unwholesome about the Bill. It may be improved somewhat by the Conference, but it may not be, or even emerge worse.

One of the points we differ on is what value can be assigned to Rep. Kucinch's vote against it. The value of this seems to me to be nil. He is not in any sense a leader or bell-weather of the Progressive caucus. No one will look at his vote and go, all right, here is the line past which the Progressives will not be pushed. The Progressive Caucus did very well for us in the negotiations; the useful seed of a 'public option' in this Bill owes wholly to their discipline and tenacity. If the Bill emerging from Conference lacks this, they must stand by their threat and scuttle the thing: that would be the proper course, and it would be the proper course because they would have been betrayed in or dealt out of the negotiations for such an outcome to eventuate, and so what emerged would not and could not rank as an acceptable compromise the whole Democratic Caucus could be expected to support.

[LSK]

487. Like the Iraq War??? n/t

[Politicub]

8. That's sad and small of him. This is only a first step to reform

Like medicare and social security, and paraphrasing what Paul Begala said, this bill is part of a movement, it's not a monument.

[niyad]

22. and obama said he wanted to be the last president to deal with health care-- well, this bill

and the one in the senate are far from single payer, far from universal health care. and he thinks this is sufficient? I don't. it doesn't even come close.

[dflprincess]

30. Do you really think Congress or Obama is going to do any more

about health care any time soon?

We're going to be stuck with the POS for years and now the states won't even have the option of finding their own solution to the mess.

This is just another bailout for corporate America that we're being forced to fund without any guarantees that we'll get better access to care.

[flvegan]

115. Shhh. You'll upset the delusional.

[dflprincess]

174. It is sad when you see voters who have been so badly abused

over the last 30 years that they can't conceive of anything different and thank Congress for continuing the abuse.

[Skittles]

501. it's beyond sad

it is making me seriously question the education of Americans - it's fucking pathetic

[NoUsername]

164. We might be stuck with it for awhile but I'm sure it will be completely revised

to give the people what they truly want in a health care bill and eliminate the taxpayer handouts to the corporations. All we need for that to happen is a Dem in the WH and a Dem majority in the House and Senate. Oh wait...

[debbierlus]

14. Interesting how those angry with Dennis don't seem to have much to say about the content

Of what he said...

Just bashing the politician...But, that is what people do when they can't logically counter an argument.

Kill the messenger.

[WeDidIt]

20. His bullshit would ahve gotten exactly fifty votes

You don't pass legislation shooting for the sky,.

Dennis Kucinich is the most fucked up Democrat on the Hill. I'd take ANY Blue dog over his dumb ass.

[951-Riverside]

52. I assume you've read his statement so which part do you disagree with?

[robinlynne]

84. good question. but then preferring blue dogs already answers it partially.

[WeDidIt]

114. The entire fucking thing

I live in reality, not some bullshit fantasyland like Kucinich.

[GreenArrow]

149. "You don't pass legislation shooting for the sky"

Just ask George W. Bush about that.

"If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them".

[HughMoran]

24. OK

some jerk had to post this fucking piece of fucking grandstanding motherfucking bullshit within minutes of one of our greatest victories in my lifetime.

You have no sense of rapport here - no wonder you bring out the WORST in people!

[Libertas1776]

27. Right you are, debbierlus

Easier to berate a man that stands for his principles than dare to actually stop and listen.

[Unvanguard]

38. He's standing for his ego, not for his principles.

Principled people want justice to actually happen. Kucinich wants to maintain pristine ideological purity. It's bullshit.

[Libertas1776]

51. So

having universal health care for every American citizen is "pristine ideological purity?" :eyes:

[Unvanguard]

54. In some possible world where Congress is going to vote for single-payer, no, it is not

but in this one, insisting on it or nothing is.

[Libertas1776]

70. Of course

Congress isn't going to vote for single payer since it was taken off the table before the "great debate" on health care even began. Hell, even the chance for individual state's to exercise their rights to initiate their own form of single payer was stripped away without a chance for a vote.

[Unvanguard]

85. I have a more relevant and immediate counterfactual for you.

If this bill had failed--if, say, three progressive Democrats had joined Kucinich in the "no" column--do you seriously think we would see a single-payer proposal come into being, and passing? In a political atmosphere where even an extremely mild public option inspires such vitriol and opposition, from more conservative Democrats as well as Republicans?

It would be attacked and demonized as "socialist", with (in the public eye) rather more credibility this time: especially since it would break Obama's commitment to not interfering with existing insurance plans except by individual choice.

[Libertas1776]

101. Better to have the most extreme

position of single payer health care berated and compromise yourself down to a truly strong, viable public option, nay, Medicare for All buy in or something of that sort, than start the debate with an already compromised position of taking single payer off the table. When you compromise from an already compromised position, you end up with a weak, sorry excuse for a "public option" i.e. bupkis.

[Unvanguard]

116. Yes, maybe, if we had begun with that back several months ago

though again, maybe not: Obama can't control Congress, and there's little indication that enough of the Democratic Congressmembers were inclined toward single-payer to make that plan feasible.

Regardless, though, that's another possible world. It's not how it happened in this one. At this point in the health care debate, suddenly talking about getting rid of the private insurance industry is certainly not going to fly: not in Congress, not to the public. That's the reality. If Kucinich had derailed this, the only thing he would have accomplished is a continuation of the disaster that is the present system. That makes his act one of betrayal: to the Democratic Party, to the public, and to social justice itself.

[tonysam]

401. He voted with the GOP

No amount of New Age mumbo jumbo grandstanding is going to change the fact Kucinich voted with the GOP.

Now if voters in his district would only get a clue...

[Cherchez la Femme]

358. :"pristine ideological purity"

Just like the founding fathers... what fuckheads :sarcasm:

[Unvanguard]

410. The Founding Fathers compromised on the retention of slavery and the slave trade.

Nothing in the health care reform bill even remotely resembles that kind of pact with the Devil.

Read http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=570">William Lloyd Garrison on the subject. He was a rather more eloquent fellow than Dennis Kucinich, and more fiery too.

[Cherchez la Femme]

447. Whoever responded to me

you're Ignored, and rightfully so,
so just keep blathering away... who cares?

In fact it give me quite a chuckle to see "ignored" under a comment
one of the few laughs today... keep up the bullshit, it's funny

[debbierlus]

64. The demonization of Kucinich for speaking truth is a disgusting spectacle

Today -

The democrats sold out women's rights.

The democrats put corporate interests above the people.

Let them eat their damn cake.

[Individualist]

72. DLC hates him

[robinlynne]

89. I'm with you.

[HughMoran]

102. HE started by coming out with this disgusting spectacle

...directly after our greatest victory in a long time.

You just have no sense of timing - though what else is new, right?

[troubledamerican]

223. Calling it quits. The United States is a wasteland.

The race to the bottom lowest-common-denominator?

With Republicans, there is no commonality. If we offer to exterminate races on their behalf, they'll still be demanding more.

Yet half of Democrats have gone insane, yearning to compromise with the abyss.

When half of Democrats have gone insane, it's time to move on. The United States is a wasteland.

[glitch]

303. The DK thread swarms seem orchestrated. I think the "centrists" fear him,

ordinarily that would surprise since he doesn't have a lot of power. Their extreme venom is either the fear-based seeking out something, anyone to fear OR, they know they've compromised something important and they feel guilty about it.

Either way, Dennis makes them look like the appeasers they are and they hate that.

[tonysam]

402. It isn't fear--it's disgust. Either Kucinich is a Democrat or he isn't

And if he is, he doesn't vote with the Republican bloc.

[glitch]

438. Fear and binary "logic" go very well together. In fact they appear inseparable. nt

[Cherchez la Femme]

357. Principles? In the Democratic Party?

Maybe a decade or two ago... not now.
Now they're too busy hauling in corporatist lobbying money

oh yeah, and "keeping their powder dry" :puke:

[Unvanguard]

33. Yes, obviously, it will help insurance companies in some ways

and obviously insurance companies are a huge part of the problem, and this bill does not fix that.

But it also helps ensure that millions more Americans are covered. I support that. And the only practical effect of his vote is to oppose it.

[glinda]

17. Dennis is right. I think he should continue pushing for this.

[HughMoran]

34. Yes, losing is what we're after

Who doesn't want to be a loser who sticks to their principals after all?

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: v

[HughMoran]

58. Driving us into the gutter?

Fuck him and his motherfucking grandstanding right after our greatest victory.

That motherfucking piece of shit is dead to me now. All of his psychotic ass-hole supporters here can fucking burn in hell for all I care.

[glinda]

66. Either you are a Republican or you are unable to take into account the good that he also does.

[HughMoran]

73. He doesn't do any good

Calling me a Republican is 1) against the rules and 2) gets your wild-eyed self put onto ignore.

Burn.

[NorthCarolina]

259. Dead to you NOW? I'd love to see the links to all your prior pro-DK postings

I'm sure there are literally volumes of them :eyes:

[harmonicon]

339. what about his sane, spell-check enabled, supporters?

Do we burn in hell too? (psst - it's made up)

[AndyA]

19. I like Dennis, and I normally align pretty closely with him.

But I think this was the only way health care reform was going to get moving. If this had failed, we'd be looking at another decade without doing anything. How many people would have died during that time?

This can be revisited. The public option can be expanded, to save more money, once things are underway. If the insurance companies are still up to their old tricks, there will be more pressure to go to single payer down the road. And that might have been the plan all along.

Politics. :puke: I'm proud to state that NO ONE in my family has EVER been a POLITICIAN!

[niyad]

31. and do you seriously think anything on your list is actually going to happen in, say, the next ten

or twenty years? I wouldn't hold my breath.

[bjb]

391. Spot On! Andy

[Danger Mouse]

21. What he said is basically right.

...
sigh.

[Unvanguard]

23. And undoubtedly if only Pelosi had casted a magic spell we would have gotten single-payer

so why all this nonsense about compromising to get it passed?

:eyes:

[Xicano]

26. Tell it like it is Dennis...

Speaking truth to power.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TicketyBoo]

28. It's a good thing all of the Democrats

didn't feel that way.

I can't help but think that this is certainly better than nothing. I just hope that much of it survives through the Senate.

[Individualist]

32. K&R

[ecstatic]

36. He's no better than Lieberman

Kucinich: Kiss my ass! Or better yet, just fuck off. Seriously. Your worthless.

[harmonicon]

342. what is it?

Why is it that so many like you who have nothing but dirty words for DK don't seem to be able to spell correctly (despite DU having a spell check) or use proper grammar? Is it the same anti-intellectual stance that the teabaggers espouse? It seems that there must be a connection between the (non)argument and the way it is conveyed - or maybe I'm just overanalyzing things.

[LatteLibertine]

37. I look

at it as a first step and an opening of the door for further reform. Having it go down would just take a lot of force and effectiveness away from President Obama for the rest of his term. It would have been a political victory for the Republicans. Yes, HCR isn't done and needs a lot of work. I like and admire Dennis and I'm going to disagree with him on this one.

Honestly, I don't think we could have passed anything more robust this time around. If we had went that path we'd just be listening to Republicans holler and crow about how Americans rejected a "government take over of health care".

[StarfarerBill]

41. Dennis is an idealist...

...who backs up his words with actions. How many other politicians in the Democratic Party can say that? Damned few...

[ecstatic]

45. Well that idealist has healthcare and wants to hold up the process

for millions of people with pre-existing conditions. Fck him and his idealism.

[Unvanguard]

53. Real idealists want to try to bring reality closer to their ideal.

Kucinich, apparently, wants to grandstand pointlessly. He is a poseur, not an idealist: that is a form of selfishness, not principle.

[HughMoran]

62. He's now stabbing his party in the back

Fuck him and his ass-hole grandstanding.

[TheCML]

200. interesting.

If Dennis is an asshole for truly wanting health care for all, and you support a bill out of party loyalty that is going to leave a significant population of Americans out, what does that make you?

[Kermitt Gribble]

43. K&R! Funny how

the party loyalists can't refute one thing from Dennis's statement - just name calling.

[HughMoran]

69. .

:eyes:

Who gives a fuck what that backstabbing grandstander says? For you to support this vile attack after our greatest victory means only one thing - off to the iggy pile.

[Kermitt Gribble]

103. Oh, no!!! Please don't put me on ignore!!!

"Our greatest victory" - what a joke. Your priority is a 'victory' for the party. I welcome being ignored by the likes of you.

[Individualist]

107. You'll cry all night, won't you!

:thumbsup: :rofl:

[Feron]

44. I'll admit that the bill is imperfect, but we need a starting point.

This bill is good enough for that. It can be tweaked later on.

So thanks for nothing Dennis. As much as I would like single payer, I also know that it wouldn't pass right now.

[debbierlus]

75. This isn't a starting point - it is a government mandate of a corrupt, unethical corporate system

This bill expands the very corporate system that created this health care crisis.

[glitch]

307. Not only is it not a starting point it is a huge step backwards.

Think Nixon.

[Cherchez la Femme]

369. That's what AARP said when Medicare was changed

Now there are commercials selling dozens of AARP pay-for plans touting 'extra medicare insurance' for what medicare now doesn't cover.
Now they're making insurance money off of it, and people actually think anything is going to change?

And that this POS bill is going to change?

It's all bullshit, this government, whether a D or R after their names (save a VERY few), is not for the good of the people but for corporations.

It's plain as the nose on your face.

[newspeak]

383. by the time the senate gets done with it

this bill may more than be obscene. I understand why Kucinich did not vote for this bill. I remember when that "screw senior citizens big pharma bill" was voted in Congress. Those repug congresscritters (one's with a conscience)that didn't tow the party line (because they knew it was a screwing of seniors and a pile of bullshite) were threatened and coerced by the administration and other repugs.

Now Kucinich is saying that this bill is not really reform for us, I believe he's right. It's looking like a major corporate giveaway and some of you on your bandwagon think that everyone should all lockstep like you. At least he is against the bill for all of the right reasons. And, some think that they're going to get reform on the backs of this bill, like single payer-it ain't gonna happen. After they open pandora's box, just like the war, it will be twice as difficult to put war or insurance influence (cause it's going to grow more with a captive consumer base) back in the box.

[mmonk]

46. There isn't anything Dennis says in that which isn't true.

Maybe we can get there in my sons' lifetimes. There is something wrong with a society that insists every detail in every facit of life has to pass through some corporate entity's bank account.

[dixiegrrrrl]

360. That was stated. Nice phrase. and so true.

[denem]

56. delete

[t0dd]

57. I love all the babies in this thread whining because Kucinich didn't toe the party line

Sorry he actually stands for something and doesn't fall in lockstep like the rest of you do. To the people throwing fits of rage that anyone would go against a watered down beyond recognition health care "reform" bill: save your temper tantrums. Not all of us drink the same Kool-Aid you do.

Bravo, Mr. Kucinich. I'm glad not every Dem supported the "Insurance Profit Protection Act of 2009" But I'm sure Rahm and company won't hesitate to stamp this as a win. Too bad it's only a win for the greedy insurance mafia.

[Unvanguard]

61. The "babies" are the people who believe reality will magically alter to suit their preference

if only they speak "truth to power" enough times.

It is an immature delusion, dangerous and naive.

[Individualist]

63. +1

[951-Riverside]

79. +1

[HughMoran]

93. You agree with that insanity?

Fuck that - off to ignore.

[HughMoran]

83. He stands for failure

and his timing SUCKS. bye.

[t0dd]

87. LOL, your temper tantrums are hilarious. Are you an adult?

You could certainly fool me and everyone else here.

[Individualist]

154. His 20+ posts in this one thread are certainly an indication of hysteria out of control.

:crazy:

[Cherchez la Femme]

372. One things right

the name sure fits :D

[bvar22]

332. +1

"Bravo, Mr. Kucinich. I'm glad not every Dem supported the "Insurance Profit Protection Act of 2009" But I'm sure Rahm and company won't hesitate to stamp this as a win. Too bad it's only a win for the greedy insurance mafia."

Exactly.

The only "winner" is the Health Insurance Industry.

[flvegan]

59. As usual, he's right.

Yet "dems" will continue to be "tears of joy" thrilled to be tossed the smallest bone available because "we won" whatever the fuck that means.

Anyone that thinks these miserable shits will ever revisit this and advance upon it are delusional. They'll stamp "health care" with a big "DONE!" and never look back while we remain under the bus.

[HughMoran]

80. You've been against this for a long time

You're against anything Dem - so off to ignore with another hater.

[flvegan]

90. Awesome, thank you!

Since you can't see this, fuck you.

I'm against bullshit politics. You feel free to suck it all down while they point and laugh at the very likes of you.

[MuseRider]

127. 100% with you.

He voted as I expected he would and I agree with everything he says.

Lots of thin skins around here, you would think it was personal or something rather than a process involving many varied opinions. Sounds much like what we hate in the Republican party. No thought, no individuality just blind and mindless party line. Would be OK I suppose if the party gave one small crap about us.

[HughMoran]

156. He stabbed us in the back with a knife

...on our most important vote in a long, long time.

I'll never forgive him ever and I will no longer have any patience for his lockstep zombie supporters.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

67. .

[Libertas1776]

78. How appropriate.

When you can't win an argument, simply berate someone's physical appearance.:eyes:

[HughMoran]

88. & I always called him "the Romulan"

:rofl:

[mmonk]

126. .

[bluestateguy]

74. What a petulant little child

A 63 year old flower child of the 1960's who just never grew up.

Sad.

[Horse with no Name]

86. One great thing about this thread

It sure illuminates agendas.
Good job Debbie.

[EFerrari]

147. Yep.

[leftstreet]

197. +1

[liberal_at_heart]

96. I guess we have to take whatever crumbs they are willing to give us

I guess something is better than nothing, but I agree with Kucinich.

[debbierlus]

100. Until we have the courage to stand with the likes of Dennis, we will never see true change

To all those who are waiting for that one magical day when we will finally move to a more progressive and enlightened America....

It is YOU who are standing in our way.

All of you who always say the time is not right. The country is not ready. It isn't possible.

You are standing in our way.

Everyone who accepts defeat without lifting a finger to fight and decries those who speak truth that you do not want to know....

You are standing in our way.

Until we realize that change will ONLY come when we stop enabling the corporate political puppets and stand with those who truly stand with the people, change can not come.

Dennis is the best democrat in the house. He stands for what could be, if we only had the same courage and passion as he. And, the true courage of our convictions.

[HughMoran]

104. More garbage

you hate Dems

[Kansas Wyatt]

119. Do you work for the Insurance Industry?

Just asking a question, because you seem to dislike anyone who wants to tell the Insurance Industry to go to hell.

[HughMoran]

123. I fucking despise the insurance companies

I stated over and over again here that we should ransack their headquarters for thinking they can play god based on MONETARY GAIN.

So, don't go ASSuming shit.

[Kansas Wyatt]

143. I said that I was just asking.

I just don't see how anyone could be happy with Death Merchants having a seat at the table for negotiations on what kind of Bill was going to come out. I despise the Insurance Industry, and still think they should have been kicked out of the building, before anything began.

[HughMoran]

148. So do I

I fucking HATE insurance people. The sad part is that we can't just shut down the industry that serves 1/6th of our GDP - it's just NOT POSSIBLE at this time. At least we're in the process of creating an alternative - you'd think people would be happy with this - it's been 60 YEARS!! in the making!!!

[Kansas Wyatt]

170. Sorry, I just see it a lot like...

Bush's Medicare Prescription Plan, which was a giveaway to the Pharmaceutical Industry.

This Bill is NOT going to be right, until Death Merchants are kicked off of it. I've seen almost 30 years from a patient's perspective, and after getting screwed by these fuckers all along, it's an insult to have these Death Merchants involved in any way whatsoever.

Happy? I guess if you work in the Insurance Industry or haven't had experience with the greedy mother fuckers, but I don't see how anyone can be happy about Death Merchants getting to name their obscene profit they want extracted from Americans.

Shut Down the Insurance Industry? Well then maybe the rest of us would extra money again. The Insurance Industry does NOT provide me with any business, but a bunch of my money goes to them. Oh, if that were to happen, I'm sure the government would step up to workers to offer jobs. They would have to live without the bonuses to toss Granny out of the hospital and deny coverage to people though.

[Libertas1776]

124. I was wondering the same thing, Kansas Wyatt

[Kansas Wyatt]

139. What would give you that idea?

Especially since I got to witness, from strictly a patient's perspective, the Insurance Industry's growth and climax, since 1981.

And, the fact that I routinely call them Death Merchants that needed to be kicked out of the building, instead of given a seat at the table.

Oh, but don't let me get in the way of any rejoicing about a deal struck with the Insurance Industry. For some reason, I got it in my head that Congress put the needs of the people first.

[Libertas1776]

150. I was agreeing with you

about the poster HughMoran working for the insurance industry. I didn't mean you. I'm sorry it came off as otherwise.

[Kansas Wyatt]

171. Sorry, I misread it.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

106. They need something to bitch about.

If they wanted real change...oh, nevermind. Enablers rule!!!!

[ecstatic]

112. Wake up. He's using you

He knows he'll get donations tonight from the "purists." He's just playing a role.

[mmonk]

232. He won't be getting all that Insurance lobby money the dem "heroes"

are getting.

[WeDidIt]

120. Kucinich followers are to the Democratic Party what Tancredo followers are to the GOP

Fantasyland does not interesect reality.

[NorthCarolina]

286. +1

:applause:

[glitch]

310. This deserves its own thread.

You are inexhaustible debbierlus and incredibly tolerant, far more than I can be.

:patriot:

[ProSense]

121. Remember when Kucinich voted yes for Christmas and Christianity?

Some of Kucinich's principled votes:

Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad. (May 2001)

Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes. (Apr 2001)

Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions. (Apr 2000)

Voted YES on constitutional amendment prohibiting flag desecration. (Jun 2003)

Voted NO on end offshore tax havens and promote small business. (Oct 2004)

In 2007, Kucinich also voted yes on Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.

[HughMoran]

132. He's finally jumped the shark this time

I forgave him for some of his "principled" votes in the past (in fact I often cheered for him), but after what he did today, I'll never see him in the same light again.

[Bjorn Against]

384. I certainly disagree with him on those votes, but you just killed any claim that he is a "purist"

[redqueen]

439. Wow... those last two really surprise me.

:(

The first ones I knew about... he only stopped being anti-choice shortly before running for president.

The flag desecration thing is just WTF.

[Odin2005]

134. Oh FUCK YOU DENNIS!!! You are no liberal, you are an attention-seeking bastard!

You were Anti-Choice, then "conveniently" changed your mind when in 2003 when you started running for president, Dennis. "Principles" my ass.

[Go2Peace]

240. What is it with all the childish outvbursts and republican talking points from these guys?

Disagree, by all means, but it is really tiring that you have to post profanely and insult everyone around you. Do you really think you convince anyone that way?

[Bluenorthwest]

280. All they have is mindless rage

And a love of being part of a majority.

[Individualist]

296. That's standard behavior for DLC.

[glitch]

315. It's the Third Way. Halfway less offensive than Republicans. Triangulation, doncha know. nt

[Odin2005]

331. I get pissed of because people annoint this hypocrite as a saint.

I respect consistent left-wingers like Sanders, not opportunistic grand-standers like Kucinich.

Like like said, was only became pro-choice when he started trying running for president. He was no right to criticize others about "principles".

[Go2Peace]

403. No, they just understand nuance and that DK provides a needed contrast

[Scarsdale Vibe]

145. Kucinich is a sociopath.

Voting against HR 3962 is the practical equivalent of voting yes on a bill that would have the government randomly execute 1 out of 20,000 Americans. Sad to see so many on DU support the silent genocide of the uninsured and underinsured in America. Good to know your ideological purity is more valuable than human life.

[HughMoran]

167. He's let his 'cult' status go to his head - that's for sure

This was a bad mistake though - his star is fading starting today.

[juno jones]

153. Dennis is right again, if not exactly popular for it.

Right now over 30% of premiums goes for the lifestyles of the rich amd famous. The overhead in public programs is something like 3%. While we are out 'perfecting' things, why don't we just continue to 'perfect' medicare by extending it to all? After all,as we are constantly reminded, it wasn't perfect when it passed and has been steadily improved all these years...except for medicare advantage and that pesky donut whole (sic).

[bertman]

155. Rep. Kucinich is one of the FEW who are willing to stand up and tell the truth, despite

the immense political pressure applied to coerce them to conform.

Bless you, Dennis Kucinich. Don't worry, I'll send your campaign some money to offset the assholes who say they want to primary you.

[knixphan]

177. Me too.

I'm pretty damn sure he knew they had the votes anyway...

Even though I believe baby steps are necessary, SOMEBODY still has to be an idealist. 'Progress depends on the unreasonable man", and all that.

Now if it turns out he didn't know the vote was in the bag, then I'll wave my finger at him.

While donating to his campaign.

[slipslidingaway]

163. They're Winning - Private insurance companies push for 'individual mandate' - June 2009

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6083122&mesg_id=6083122

"As momentum gains for reforms, insurers hope to turn it to their advantage by supporting a proposal that everyone buy coverage. It would be a boost for the industry, which has seen enrollment decline.


...But this time, it turns out, the health insurance industry has good reason to support at least some change: It needs it. Private health insurance faces a bleak future if the proposal they champion most vigorously -- a requirement that everyone buy medical coverage -- is not adopted.

...Insurers do not embrace all of the healthcare restructuring proposals. But they are fighting hard for a purchase requirement, sweetened with taxpayer-funded subsidies for customers who can't afford to buy it on their own, and enforced with fines.


...The industry's real trouble begins in 2011, when 79 million baby boomers begin turning 65. Health insurers stand to lose a huge slice of their commercially insured enrollment (estimated at 162 million to 172 million people) over the next two decades to Medicare, the government-funded health insurance program for seniors..."


For insurers, getting "run over" would be the adoption of a so-called single-payer plan, where the government pays all medical bills. Such a plan would wreak havoc on the private insurance market, and is widely viewed as politically unfeasible this year. So the best way for the industry to preserve the private insurance market -- and derail the campaign for a single-payer system -- may be to go along with more palatable proposals on the table now, said Jeffrey Miles, a healthcare analyst and president of the Miles Organization, a Los Angeles insurance brokerage firm...

"If healthcare goes down this year, you are going to end up with single-payer care much sooner than anyone expected," he said." ("he" is "Jeffrey Miles, a healthcare analyst and president of the Miles Organization, a Los Angeles insurance brokerage firm."

[debbierlus]

166. Excellent post - it deserves its own thread

[slipslidingaway]

178. Health plans' profits decline along with membership numbers - they need customers

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/08/24/bisb0824.htm

"...Part of the problem is shrinking membership. Aetna, Cigna, Coventry Health Care, Health Net, Humana, WellPoint and United covered a collective 117.7 million people during the second quarter of 2008. That number was about 2 million less for the same period this year..."

:hi:

[zoff]

301. 2MM x $500/month average premium

$100 million a month ... (fill in your own expletive)

[liberal_at_heart]

176. it's true, the insurance companies are the real winners with this bill

[slipslidingaway]

180. They sure are :( n/t

[bertman]

326. Thanks for posting this, slipslidingaway. Please post as a separate thread.

It's amazing to me how so many Democrats cannot see the influence that the insurance companies have wielded during this entire process. Yet, because we have A BILL, A SHITTY BILL, they are ecstatic.

[Algorem]

175. Who's 5 foot 7 and is going to lose his job

first? Rahm The Finger Emanuel or Dennis Don't Join Them Beat Them Kucinich?

[impik]

182. Purity Troll

That's what he is. This guy has absolutely no sense of reality. Nothing. He lives in hin pure fantasy world and if we were waiting for him - Nothing would ever get done.

[slipslidingaway]

184. Many bills were passed without him and the support of several Democrats...

Patriot Act
Iraq War Resolution
China MFN
Wall Street Bailout

....

[Truth2Tell]

187. Well, nothing bad would ever get done anyway. nt

[Fading Captain]

204. You;re sickening

Someone decides not to sell out to the corporate fuckers who've been fucking us over for 30 years, and they are a purity troll?

People like you disgust me.

[Desertrose]

185. I agree with him, too.

"During the debate, when the interests of insurance companies would have been effectively challenged, that challenge was turned back. The “robust public option” which would have offered a modicum of competition to a monopolistic industry was whittled down from an initial potential enrollment of 129 million Americans to 6 million. An amendment which would have protected the rights of states to pursue single-payer health care was stripped from the bill at the request of the Administration. Looking ahead, we cringe at the prospect of even greater favors for insurance companies."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

188. Some of you are as bad as the Republicans--no principles, just party loyalty

Sickening.

You're the lame apologists who said it was ok for Dems to vote for the Iraq War Resolution "because it was going to pass anyway" and defended those who voted for it against the wishes of their constituents and in a misguided attempt to save their electoral hides.

You said it was all worth it to maintain a Democratic majority so that the Dems could pass all this wonderful legislation.

And so what do they do with their new-found majority?

Pass a bill full of sops to the Republicans, who then don't vote for the bill anyway.

You know, it's possible to oppose the same bill for different reasons. I oppose it because the public option isn't open to everyone and because most people will be forced to buy private insurance, but yet, the insurance companies will be under no obligation to provide affordable or useful policies. They will still be able to discriminate on the basis of age, which is a real sore spot for anyone over 50. Many provisions don't even go into effect until 2013.

Those corrupt, spineless Dems who can bail out the banks in record time with no questions asked or conditions imposed all of a sudden start dithering and fretting about how "impossible" it is to enact a public option that is open to everyone on a sliding scale (as in normal, humane, sensible countries, as opposed to here).

You're all a bunch of codependents when it comes to the Democratic Party. You're like the battered wife who thinks everything is just fine because her husband took her to dinner at Applebees after beating her up.

And you hate Kucinich because he actually votes on what he believes in, not on how the cool kids are voting.

Too bad everybody doesn't do that. Too bad the majority of Dems, like the Republicans, are bought and paid for and probably no longer even know what their principles are other than to stay in office by any means necessary.

[ProSense]

194. Yup, we think just like these "Republicans":

Barbara Lee Releases Statement On Passage of Health Care for America Act

Washington D.C. – Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA) released the following statement today after the House of Representatives approved H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act:

“Today’s historic vote is one step forward in our quest to provide health care to all Americans.

“While there is still much work to do, I applaud President Obama, Democratic Leadership and the Chairmen of the Tri-Committees for their efforts to bring us to this point.

“I also want to thank in the Tri-Caucus, Progressives Caucus and particularly the 42 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. Together we have led the fight for a strong public option, which is included in the health care bill that the House approved today.

“When others were pronouncing health reform dying—and the public option dead and buried—we kept on fighting! And we will keep fighting until a final health care bill is on the president’s desk that includes not only a strong public option, but provisions to achieve health equity, eliminate health disparities and to limit the rate of increase for those with private plans.

“We have and will continue to champion issues such as the need for support for patients with end stage renal disease, for children’s mental health, and dental care, workforce pipeline issues, and expansion of community health centers.

“These provisions and others attack the many causes of health disparities, and we fought to get them in. Under the leadership of Congresswoman Donna M. Christensen, we have also championed expansion of the Office of Minority Health because we need a comprehensive way to address minority health across agencies.

“Finally, because we know that 85 percent of Americans are in private insurance, under the leadership of Rep. Donna Edwards, we fought to have included cost containment provisions to keep premiums reasonable. We know that the American people want and deserve affordable health care. We also know that this bill is cost effective for our country, and for American families watching their budgets.

“This was a historic vote, but we must keep up the fight until we have a final bill on the president’s desk. Health care should not just be a privilege for a few; it should and must be a basic human right in the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world.”

CONGRESSMAN GRAYSON PROUDLY SUPPORTS AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE FOR AMERICA ACT

November 7, 2009 9:18 PM (Washington, DC) – Congressman Alan Grayson voted tonight in favor of the Affordable Health Care for America Act. The bill (H.R. 3962) will deliver life, health, and peace of mind to the tens of millions of people in the United States who do not have health insurance.

Congressman Grayson said, “I promised from the start to vote for any bill that saves money and saves lives. This bill does both. This bill will help save the lives of the nearly 45,000 Americans who die every year because they do not have health insurance,” Congressman Grayson said.

Congressman Grayson never wavered in his support of health care reform. Leading up to the vote, he personally spoke with hundreds of constituents, to listen to their concerns and answer their questions. Since August, he has held three health care town halls, a health care telephone town hall meeting, and dozens of other open meetings; consulted with the members of his Health Care Advisory Board; and considered the overwhelming number of calls and emails from constituents.

Congressman Grayson said, “A lot of people say they love America. To them I say, ‘it’s not enough to love what’s in America. You cannot just love the Appalachian Mountains, the Mohave Desert, or the Gulf Coast. You need to love Americans as well. And loving people means taking care of them, sheltering the homeless, feeding the hungry, and healing the sick.’”

The Affordable Health Care for America Act received broad support from hundreds of important and influential organizations including the AARP, American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, U.S. Women’s Chamber of Commerce, and Voto Latino.

Conyers: House Health Care Bill Will Save Lives While Fight for Single Payer Continues

WASHINGTON D.C. — Congressman John Conyers, Jr (D-MI) issued the following statement today applauding the passage of H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act.

“Today, I joined my Democratic colleagues in support of the Affordable Healthcare for America Act. While the bill is far from perfect, I supported it because it will expand access to health insurance to 96 percent of Americans, end discrimination based on pre-existing conditions, help our seniors by closing the prescription drug benefit donut hole, and increase competition and choice with a public insurance option.”

In the near term, these reforms will improve and save American lives while we continue to fight for single payer health care at the state and national levels. I will vote for this bill because the cost of inaction is too high. Each year, 44,000 people die because they do not have access to insurance. Without reform, this number will rise, Americans will be at greater risk of losing their coverage, and our business community will continue to fall behind international competitors as their future profits are drained by burdensome health care costs.

Grijalva explained a couple of the highlights he says are in the bill. He told us there's no pre-existing condition denial, meaning if a person has a pre-existing condition they can't be denied services. He also said this bill will extend benefits to millions of American's who don't otherwise have an opportunity to receive health care coverage.

Representative Grijalva said, "It's not as strong as many of us wanted it, but it does provide for private insurances a competitive competition that will keep costs lower and make some of the premiums we see and some of the costs that we see from private insurance carriers are going to have to reduce their costs to compete with this public option."

link

RW hacks.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

196. Yeah, but by and large, it was a bill that the Republicans could have supported

if they hadn't been so devoted to their political theater of playing The Party of No.

It's an adaptation of Romneycare as known and hated in Massachusetts, only with about 1900 extra pages of complications.

Like the Democratic Party itself, the party loyalists (and interns and paid operatives) are too willing to settle for less.

Imagine if the Republicans were in charge. They would have imposed Romneycare on the nation unanimously and successfully made the DLC Dems feel guilty for voting against it.

The Republicans wouldn't have gone through this wimpy, "Oh, we have to go slowly so that people who won't vote for it anyway are mollified."

I'm sorry, but I've seen the Dems cave in, compromise with themselves, go along with the Republicanites just to be nice, and undershoot their goals continually over the past thirty years, and I'm damned sick of it.

This is not a victory. This is a sorry half-assed attempt to pretend to reform health care while keeping the current system intact.

[ProSense]

199. All, but one, Republican voted against it. Kucinich is in good company. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

212. The Republican opposition was THEATER

Red meat for their knuckle draggers.

[ProSense]

220. I'm sure had McCain won they would have rallied to pass health reform with a public option. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

274. Like this bill actually has a real public option that would be available to all comers?

Don't pretend that this feeble "public option," which will be available to only 2% of the people and doesn't even start for four years, is a major liberal victory.

[G_j]

224. exactly

of course.. duh

:think:

[Desertrose]

208. And if a Dem wasn't in office, they'd have vote a big yes on it.

Right from the get-go the Dems sucked up to the repubs all the time knowing they'd try to stop it from going ahead just to screw with the Dems in office. Make em look bad with this bill as it will inevitably FAIL for most Americans and guess who gets the blame?

I am so glad Dennis voted NO.




:hi:Lydia

[Fading Captain]

206. The Dittocratic Party

Fuck the Dittocrats

[sabrina 1]

222. Couldn't agree more. We heard the same excuses for

Democrats when they voted for the MCI, for the war supplementals, for the War in Iraq itself, for Bush's SC nominees, and his other vile nominees. For the Fisa Bill and on and on.

They were able to pass this bill without Republicans, yet we were told that they couldn't pass anything without Republicans being on board.

They just bailed out the Private Insurance Industry and handed them millions of new customers without whom that parasitic industry might finally have collapsed. Just as they bailed out Wall St and left Main St to fend for itself.

This is a bil that Republicans could have supported, probably do for the most part. The only reason they didn't vote for it is they didn't need to, the Dems bailed out their corporate buddies for them. I am beginning to think it's all just a game.

We criticized Republicans for blindly supporting their party, right or wrong. Now we are being told that we, and people like Kucinich ought to do the same thing.

[DemBones DemBones]

238. One of the best DU posts ever!

"You're all a bunch of codependents when it comes to the Democratic Party. You're like the battered wife who thinks everything is just fine because her husband took her to dinner at Applebees after beating her up."

"And you hate Kucinich because he actually votes on what he believes in, not on how the cool kids are voting."

You are so right about all of it.

[Individualist]

298. +1

[tonysam]

407. And if it means not accomplishing a damned thing and voting with the GOP,

then so be it.

If those are "principles," fuck principles. We don't need those type of principles.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

450. Yeah, we do

Loyalty to a watered-down, pre-compromised bill that will only get watered down further in the Senate and designed by a bunch of bought-and-paid-for corporate errand boys and errand girls is no virtue.

You can oppose something for different reasons.

For example, Libertarians oppose the Iraq War because it's "big government." Leftists oppose the war because it's wrong.

In a vote to defund the war, Libertarians and leftists would vote the same. That doesn't mean that the leftists are Libertarians or vice versa.

Should be a simple concept to grasp if you understand anything beyond "Hurray for our side."

[dana_b]

215. k&r

thanks for posting this.

[earth mom]

216. Go Dennis!

:yourock:

[Greyhound]

217. Where Dennis and the party separate, he believes people are worth fighting for.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was some sort of political organization that resolved to work for the working people of the United States?

[wroberts189]

218. KNR!

[BREMPRO]

219. many of the complaints Kucinich rails on are addressed in this bill- i'm weary of his grandstanding

Weiner who also offered a similar amendment to Kucinich and fought just as hard and passionately for single payer and a robust public option voted for this bill. Gov.Dean, a progressive who knows more about health care than anyone on this site supported it. They both recognized political reality and that there is value in passing this imperfect, but substantial reform bill, both for its content and politically for the Democrats and Obama. Trashing this effort at reform and the Democratic leadership only helps the Republicans and tea-baggers.

[bkozumplik]

227. f that

this bill is shite.

ill take no bill over a dick sandwhich every time.

people who settle for slop deserve what they get.

[lonestarnot]

225. Sorry Dennis, but I have to disagree this time.

[dschis]

390. Look someone in the party had to say it

We all know what needed to done to get this 'reform' passed. At the same time some high profile person had to vote against it and make the other side know that we are out here. Someone had to voice our real opinion and he was picked or he volunteered. Whatever the case, by this act he has effectively put the insurance companies,repugs and dinos on notice that we are out here. We will be voting and working for their demise

[Vidar]

231. The party betrayed Dennis & the people with this stinking bill.

[ProSense]

233. Actually, the party stood up for the people despite Kucinich. n/t

[Roland99]

246. By wanting to fine us and/or put us in jail if we don't buy insurance?

You going to pay my $405/mo. premium PLUS my $5000 deductible AND my co-pays AND the 20% co-insurance?


Under HR 676, I'd pay $250/mo and have NO deductible, NO co-pay, and NO co-insurance.


So, tell me, what have I "won"?

[Echo In Light]

248. Yeah, but that doesn't matter when there's an opportunity to hate on DK!

K&R for DK

[Bluenorthwest]

275. Whose going to buy my family's insurance? You?

Obama? McClurkin? The bigots want to tear American families to shreds to serve Insurance profits. Put your money where you mouth is, pay up the difference between what Bigot Approved Families will pay and what we will pay to please the bigots.
Those who support this bill support discrimination and bigotry and they do so for their own benefit without thought for others. Deal with it. And understand, I would never do this to your family, what you and yours will do to mine without so much as a thought.

[GreenArrow]

359. no, it didn't. N/T

.

[tonysam]

409. Dennis has betrayed the party and has for years

Dennis believes only in himself.

[Mari333]

236. knr right on Kucinich

right as usual. not a sellout who begs for scraps from the Insurance company master's tables.

[pjt7]

245. I don't get why this bill FORCES people to BUY

Insurance?

[Bluenorthwest]

276. Because the Insuance Companies wanted it that way

And Congress and the White House are all owned people, save for Dennis and a few. The rest are property of Big Insurance.

[malaise]

247. Dennis may well be right but

it is a start.

[murdoch]

249. Dennis is the only center-leftist in Congress

The Democrats who voted for the bill are centrists.

The Democrats who voted against the bill are center-right.

The Republicans (except Cao, who is right wing) are far right.

Half of DU is up in arms over the solitary left wing vote in Congress.

[Sky Masterson]

253. If the bill fell one vote short I'd be pissed.

It didn't.
Let it go.. Move on.

[reprehensor]

255. I agree with Dennis, but...

my hope is that Congress will return to this debate, and use this victory as a stepping-stone for some real change.

I realize that a lot of people are pissed at Dennis right now, but he's not bullshitting. The "Health Care" industry doesn't seem to be losing much, and stands to make yet another killing, at the expense of the US taxpayer.

[ncteechur]

256. Would he have voted NO if he had been 218? Easy to throw stones from the cheap seats.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

257. k&r!

[Orwellian_Ghost]

258. K&R

[lib2DaBone]

265. Kucinich is one of the very few in Congress not owned by big corporations

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

268. lotta corpora-phagists here, though

The only reason this bill passed was because the insurance companies allowed it. Requiring people to buy private coverage is madness.

[glitch]

318. I like to spell it corprophagist (it just just fits so well on so many levels) Welcome to DU! nt

[still_one]

277. and by the time Kucinich's ideal of a healthcare bill comes to be, how many will have died? /nt

[thesquanderer]

278. I agree with everything he said, but...

I agree with everything he said, but in the end, I'd have voted for the bill. I'm guessing he might have also, if he had determined that his No would have prevented passage. It's that old thing about not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Or if not good, then at least still a whole lot better than what we have now, and probably as good as anything that could actually pass. Still I"m very glad there are people like him out there fighting for the perfect, or else we'd probably have ended up with something even worse than what we're getting!

[woo me with science]

279. Even if you favor the bill as a first step,, you have to admire his principles. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

281. Here lies the answer to a lot of America's problems:

The result is that since 1970, the number of physicians has increased by less than 200% while the number of administrators has increased by 3000%.

It's not just in the medical field. Administrative bloat has occurred in every field that I'm aware of, while the numbers of people who actually WORK has held steady or fallen.

[AzDar]

283. Dennis is right.

:cry:

[sellitman]

284. Dennis should be our President.

My donations to his re-election will be double what it was last time.

[saltpoint]

285. He's tried twice and was stomped.

Write all the checks you want; where he is now is his last stop.

[sellitman]

287. He is one of the few fighting for us.

Your sense of outrage is misplaced.

[saltpoint]

289. No outrage. But I wouldn't hand the ball over to someone who can't

carry it.

The work of any political party -- whether it's one you and I like or don't like -- is done inside, and it's done with elbowing and negotiation, and collaboration, and cooperation.

It most certainly is not done the way Kucinich operates and Democratic primary voters have been telling him that for about a decade now.

[sellitman]

292. One man's "elbowing and negotiation, and collaboration" is another's man's SELLOUT

Dennis won't SELL OUT.

The bill that passed will be watered down even more...... IF....... it makes it through the Senate, making it a win for Republican's and a boom to the Insurance companies.

You are cheering on the wrong side.

[saltpoint]

294. The Speaker of the House is a Democrat. Kucinich bolted with his

oppositional-defiant vote last night.

Shame on him.

[sellitman]

467. Your labels are real cool.

The Speaker is a sell out and no Democrat in my eyes. Paid for shill for the insurance companies is all she is.

Dennis is the one with Democratic morals and principles.

Shame on you!

[slipslidingaway]

288. No support from the corporations, there is no way anyone would ever be...

elelcted without that support.

[saltpoint]

291. Sad to say it is a significant component in electoral victories, at least in

many cases; some would say too many cases.

It is a rare, rare thing in all history when someone does an end-run around a standing, entrenched reality.

Certainly Dennis Kucinich has tried and has not succeeded.

Legislation is messy and unsatisfying and often incomplete, but that's not cue for Kucinich to abandon ship.

His vote last evening was dismaying.

[tonysam]

413. God forbid

The last thing we need is some New Age weirdo spouting nonsense and having a record of no real accomplishment other thank bankrupting Cleveland when he was mayor.

[jotsy]

295. I feel like Alice in underhanded land!

Great original post, some of the following comments, not so much. Among the many misgivings I have about what's going on, high on the list is the question of why millions of us are about to be mandated to buy products from organized serial mass murderers for profit.

There is no redeeming value to the public in the system that exists, the insurance industry is an irrelevant middleman who sucks the most money off the top, yet participate in the actual delivery of services the least.

As for all the Kucinich bashers I've read here, I gotta disagree, sometimes true leadership is about standing on your own, and not falling in line behind a bought party's will. Every issue he spoke to in this statement are bothersome truths and IMO the most sensible solution is to eliminate, not handcuff us to our abusers.

[Duval]

297. Corporate America would not let Kucinich get near becoming

a viable candidate for President. Why? Because he is for the people and against the Corporations. Our "corporate media" trashed him, as did some Democrats. I trust Kucinich and I think he is right about our health care. Just wait and see. No one believed Perot and that "giant sucking sound is jobs going South", regarding NAFTA. :think:

[John Q. Citizen]

304. Dennis is America's Congressperson.

He's a tireless fighter for the little guy, for the average working American.

He has my unyielding respect and he is one of the few politicians I will support in 08 with cash contributions.

Go Dennis. Stay true to our country, our principles and the principles that our party once stood for.

[SnoopDog]

305. Most people don't understand Dennis, because he is a man of the people...

Yes, he votes on how it will benefit People not corporations. Most people, including democrats, think
you have to 'give in' - well if more people in Congress and the Senate view things like Dennis, our
country would be far better of.

He is a real representative of the People - just like the framers of our Constitution wanted.

[Honeycombe8]

306. He voted NO because he's a one-man party of NO? How will that vote help the 40,000 dying

this year because of no health insurance? Keeping the status quo won't prevent their deaths. Standing on a soap box yelling for something that you know will not happen - that won't prevent their deaths.

Once again, DK is his own one man party of no, seeking to be different, seeking the limelight, instead of seriously trying to help those who desperately need health ins. Yes, Dennis, even if a bill isn't good, and even if it helps "bad companies," if goes a small way towards relieving the suffering of some American citizens, and possibly forms a stepping stone for future actions...wouldn't that be worthy of at least serious consideration? Of course it would. If relieving suffering is the goal. What is your goal, Dennis?

[Skittles]

499. he's saying don't settle for garbage and call it progress

[L0oniX]

308. SPHC or nothing.

[davidwparker]

313. I agree. What came of this was removal of pre-existing conditions and

I believe doing away with lifetime caps -- so that some doesn't have to hurry up and die.

[ProSense]

319. Thanks Kucinich for voting against:

Starting next year, private insurers could no longer deny anyone coverage based on preexisting conditions, place lifetime limits on coverage or abandon people when they become ill. Insurers would be required to disclose and justify proposed premium increases to regulators, and could not remove adult children younger than 27 from their parents’ family policies.

For the elderly, the group that has been most skeptical of Obama’s initiative, the House package would immediately offer discounts on prescription drugs and reduce a gap in Medicare prescription drug coverage, closing it entirely by 2019. Uninsured people who cannot get coverage could join temporary high-risk insurance pools, and unemployed workers would be permitted to keep their COBRA benefits until the public plan and insurance exchanges started in 2013.

link

“For all Americans, this legislation makes a big difference: no discrimination for pre-existing medical conditions, no dropped coverage if you are sick, no co-pays for preventive care. There is a cap on what you pay in but there is no cap on the benefits that you receive. It works for seniors closing the donut hole, offering better primary care, and strengthening Medicare for years to come. It works for women preventing insurance companies from charging women more than men for the same coverage. No longer will being a woman be a pre-existing medical condition.

link

Supporters of gay rights have long been trying to change the tax treatment of health benefits provided by employers to the domestic partners of their employees. In effect, such benefits are now treated as taxable income for the employee, and the employer may owe payroll taxes on their fair-market value.

Under the bill, such benefits would be tax-free, just like health benefits provided to the family of an employee married to a person of the opposite sex.

Representative Jim McDermott, Democrat of Washington, who proposed the change, said it would “correct a longstanding injustice, end a blatant inequity in the tax code and help make health care coverage more affordable for more Americans.”

Joseph R. Solmonese, president of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights advocacy group, said federal tax law had not kept up with changes in the workplace.

link

[Mass]

320. Said by a person who insurance is subsidized by our tax dollars.

Thank you for your support to all people with preexisting conditions

[Bjorn Against]

389. And a person who is trying to get all Americans the same health care he has

Under the system he is advocating not only would all preexisting conditions be covered, but people would not be treated as criminals if they chose not to pay the salaries of health insurance CEOs.

[Mass]

455. So, do these people have to wait until Kucinich can decide enough of his colleagues.

Some cannot. It is their life he is playing with.

The bill is not that great, but nothing is worse.

I agree 100 % with his reasoning, but it will not happen, and, in the meantime, this bill will allow people who are sick and unable to access care to do so (too slowly, too little, but it is already something). Some people cannot wait. Some people will become sick and treated too late if nothing is done. This bill is far from perfect. I would prefer single payer, but the fact is that it brings something to people. If it went through the Senate like that, it would be something positive.

Sorry, no sympathy for him. A lot for Grivalja and Conyers, though, who understood the difference between a perfect bill and a bill that gives progress.

[scentopine]

324. He is right - democrats are unprincipaled - this is obvious to voters

and THE primary reason why republicans win elections. Republican principals, as repugnant as they are, are well articulated and they stand their ground. Democrats on the other hand have become spineless manipulators of their party supporters, and they are following in the slip stream created by right-wing blow hards - hoping to pick up the right wing rejects. They spend all day smooching the asses of corporate America and then come back and ask the rank and file for support.

Fuck them. After 30 years of straight dem tickets, I realize I have been a simple fool for supporting democrats. This is not an easy thing to admit, however, it is true. I was foolish with labor and donations to democrats. I made bad choices. Things are simply out of control in both parties and both parties are just different shades of "free-market" conservatives.

Brace yourselves- heath care, like savings and loan disaster, torture disaster, wire tapping disaster, Enron disaster, Wall Street disaster, two wars in Asia disaster is only going to get worse with Democrats "helping" to fix things like they did in ALL of these previous cases of "reform" as they spread "free" market democracy.

Democrats remain unprincipled to the core, beholden only to their corporate masters and republicans. Time for a new political party.

The next chapter of free market disasters is being completed. As Wall Street CEOs rake in billions from this plan, the rest of us will go broke. It is nothing more than a mandated transfer of wealth from your bank account to a Wall Street CEOs very deep pockets.

In spite of the crocodile tears, corporatists have played this as brilliantly as ever, they are getting exactly what they want.

[quiet.american]

325. Misplaced idealism, the result of which, if successful, would have still left people to suffer.

All the lofty words in the world don't change that.

[man4allcats]

335. I just read this email from Dennis

and signed the accompanying petition to express my continued support of H.R. 676 Single Payer Health Care. Not that I am at all surprised, but with H.R. 3962 we are clearly being sold down the river again. Politicians and the corporations that own them are masters at dishing up shit for Americans to consume. What amazes me is that so many of us seem to have such an appetite for it. It is a sad commentary on this nation that truly representative government in this country has been reduced to a mere handful of elected representatives with the courage and foresight to stand up for what is right. Thank you, Dennis, for always being there.

[bvar22]

336. Thank You, Dennis Kucinich.

This bill is a Step in the WRONG direction.

It further entrenches the Health Insurance Industry.
This bill does NOT "open the door to Single Payer."
Obama HIMSELF was instrumental in stripping out the amendment that would have actually done that.

This bill channels Mega-Billions of Public dollars into the pockets of the For Profit Insurance racket.

The "Centrist" Democrats are doing what the Republicans could only dream about....
Forcing every American to BUY a shoddy product from a For Profit Corporation.
A "Uniquely American Solution".....indeed.

The Democratic Party has wisely delayed implementation until AFTER the 2012 elections.
America will NOT like this "reform" once the REALITY hits.
America WILL blame The Democrats....and rightly so.


There are not too many REAL Democrats left in the Democratic Party.
Dennis is one.

”Unlike other candidates, I am not funded by those corporate interests.
I owe them no loyalty, and they have no influence over me or my policies.” ---Dennis Kucinich

[Bushknew]

443. Exactly, this bill is worse than what we have now. Change we can vomit on.

[RBInMaine]

337. Yeah yeah yeah, bla bla bla, it's NOT intended to be the end but a BEGINNING ! SUPPORT IT YOU FOOL!

[Aramchek]

340. Dennis is a selfish little man.

[Patriot 76]

341. If Dennis' principles lead him to vote with republicans, that's his choice.

Voting with republicans against health care? Did he think this through? We all know the Bill isn't going to perfect, but for him to side with the pukes, makes me want to puke.

I hope he can up with some solutions to the problems within the Bill instead siding with the opposition.

[hulka38]

344. WeDidIt and HughMoran, you couldn't sound more Republican if you tried.

You must think you're tough guys by swearing all the time, a very conservative characteristic that I have to put up with on a regular basis. And you're repeating the same point over and over. You don't like DK. We understood that a long time ago.

[dschis]

394. Naw just DLC types. They're pretty close thoough

[roody]

346. Thank you, Dennis.

[Stumbler]

347. An articulate, well-thought response to this corporate giveaway nonsense

Keep up the fight for We the People, Dennis. Look's like I'll be sending you my Congressman's donations next year.

[Duncan]

351. Good for him.

.

[billh58]

353. Once again

Mr. 2% gets his 15 minutes in the press for taking a "controversial" position. Like most on the Far Left, Dennis spends most of his time and energy being against most things, and for very little.

[Bushknew]

354. Kudos for Dennis for not wanting to eat this shit sandwich.

[inna]

362. here's the part that kills me:

"An amendment which would have protected the rights of states to pursue single-payer health care was stripped from the bill at the request of the Administration."

I think it's nothing short of a betrayal/backstabbing on the Administration's part. I'm beyond disappointed.

[Duncan]

364. I hope Obama does likewise and stands by his word.

And vetoes this bill if it gets to his desk in its current worst than useless form.
I'm not cheering for a team that is trying to score a goal for the wrong side just because they are scoring a goal. "TURN AROUND - YOU ARE GOING THE WRONG WAY" is what all true fans of the blue team should be yelling.

[Cleita]

366. Another K&R

[Gregorian]

370. It's a shame that America isn't mature enough for Dennis Kucinich.

At least now I know why Bush wasn't impeached. If we can't even pass a strong health care bill, then we are truly a right leaning country. But I already knew that.

[dschis]

395. I'm moving to Europe I guess

This place is going to the dogs

[Gregorian]

425. Rome is always burning. Europeans have more history, but they have their problems.

England is one nation under CCTV.

We have a dumbed down population, but a very high potential.

I personally believe that what we are seeing is global. We crossed the point where the ratio of resources per capita are now lending to a world at war. Hardly anyone seems to see this. I argue endlessly with even those on a liberal forum such as this one. But world population is going to cause a lot of troubles, starting about 30 years ago. Only now are we beginning to see the effects. Global warming and politics, and population are not unrelated. Economy equals consumption. That is at the bottom of all that we are discussing. It relates to health care in that we are just too stupid to spend our money on what counts.

[dschis]

513. I know

I have relatives in Germany. They think we're crazy. Matter of fact, one my nieces went back...she didn't like the people here and to keep it short the way things go. And yes, there are mostly pacifists

[Gregorian]

515. My favorite forum on the internet is British.

First of all, I have never felt at home with Americans. I would have much rather lived in a society that values cycling. This place is car-centric. Our values suck. Our food is crap. Well, I don't want to start on my list, as I'll come across as just a negative person. I'm actually very social and happy. But not here.

The things I love in my life don't come from America. And I'm only here because my grandparents escaped a genocide by running from their mansion with nothing but their clothes.

The British forum has captivated me for nearly a decade. Their educational system is reflected in a group of people who know Latin, history, language, and just an array of things that make my head spin. I'm enthusiastic and inspired to be able to watch them in action. And I would love to be among them.

Man, I could go on. And it really does sound like I hate this country. The media, the drug war, the lazy nature of citizens who would allow what has happened to happen.

It's little things like how when I left Silicon valley for a place to call home, once that area was destroyed by concrete. And what I found was poverty. I've owned gorgeous pieces of property, but with vast emptiness of culture. It's because this is the last place to be settled. Even the remote places of Europe have some sense of culture. Or am I just being too general. I lived in Oregon, and the town was Cheese Whiz and puffy white bread. I see the crowds standing along the roads as the Tour de France passes places in the middle of nowhere that have great cheese, bread, wines. We're uncultured.

Yikes, this post is liable to get me shouted down. I'm actually not all that intelligent myself if I generalize this way. I just know what we could have been. A melting pot that forgot where it's alloys came from.

I really wouldn't mind Belgium. I'm part Welsh, but the jokes about how uncultured they are make me wonder how wrong I may be in my observations about the rest of the civilized world.

[tonysam]

415. It's a shame Kucinich isn't mature enough for America n/t

[Gregorian]

422. You know that's not true. He authored the bill to impeach Cheney.

He's just too good for the corporate zombies. And I shouldn't say that, because Diebold helped get Bush into his second term. But still, if Americans weren't so duped and addicted and lazy, Fox wouldn't exist, Limbaugh would never have been, no Bushes would have been elected, the military budget would be less than that of health care, etc.

[madrchsod]

374. ah... the know nothings...

they think they are smarter than the person who has done more research and has a better understanding of the healthcare issues in america.

americans are to afraid to join the rest of the first world when it comes to healthcare. it`s their gain and our loss.

[lxlxlxl]

385. I wish I had a number of total number of health insurance employees in the country

Me thinks there are some PR flacks here on DU.

[Zambero]

392. The Rule of 80-20

Politics has been defined as the art of the possible. In a perfect world one gets 100% of what's needed all of the time, but no such world has ever existed, so you strive for what can be accomplished today and hope for more tomorrow. The late Sen. Ted Kennedy understood the need to make incremental progress toward a final goal. That is where we are at today with health care reform. Striving for the elusive 100% will almost always yield 0% results. Going down to defeat in ideological glory might provide Kucinich and others with a fleeting feel-good moment but it also smacks of Ralph Naderism at its worst -- the most surefire and divisive way to assure that the status quo prevails and NOTHING positive is accomplished, not now, not later, not ever.

[dschis]

396. Ahh, but we need the voice of opposition

We need to let the other side know that this isn't good enough. We need to revisit in the NEAR future. If everyone laid down and went with the status quo then the other side would think they have gotten away with this. Dennis did the right (probably re arranged) thing to let those corporate interests know... the masses are still out here. Too bad Teddy Roosevelt isn't alive we could use him

[kurtzapril4]

431. the rule of 80/20

We can hope all we want that this will be revisited in the future.

But *you* know in your heart of hearts, as I know in mine, that it's not going to be. Ever. This is as good as it's going to get. And maybe only 25,000 Americans will die every year because they have no access to health care! Who cares? It's an improvement!

Checked EPA regulations under the last 3 administrations? They didn't make progress...they regressed. And that is exactly what is going to happen with this sham of a reform bill. It'll start where it starts...and things will get stripped out of it, until it's less than worthless.

I am most dis-heartened to learn that I will be required to buy health insurance. I make $8.50/hr and I work 12 hours a week. Please, someone tell me how I am going to afford a $400/mo. premium? Or the fine? I can't even afford the medicine ($1325/mo.)I need.

As the owner of a really fine neurological disease, MS, perhaps you can imagine how this crap-tastic bill worries me. Do I get to go to jail for being too poor to buy health insurance?

Kudoes to Kucinich for standing up for what's right. At least he's not a sell out.

[dschis]

397. I have relatives in Germany

One of my nieces is a cardiac surgeon. They all think we nuts for not having the government more involved. Oh, and they live better than we do. One just went back and didn't have a lot of good things to say about how things are run over here

[LWolf]

399. k & r for the best Democrat standing, bar none. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

400. God Bless you, Dennis

You've nailed every point.

[RoccoR5955]

414. Kucinich/Sanders '12 Take Back America!

WTG Dennis. A true patriot who works for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations.

[gholtron]

417. The Problem is that If Kucinich's amendment was in the bill

would it pass in the House let alone the Senate? With all due
respect to Dennis Kucinich, If we move too much, we will not
be any where. Until you change the people in Congress with
true Progressives, HCR will not have passed this year. I
understand what Rep. Kucinich is saying but it will never pass
this year in either house of Congress. Take a look at the
Senate? Do you honestly think that Kucinich's amendment would
pass the Senate? I think we have to craw before we can walk.
We have to get rid of the DINO's and find people that are not
bought by the industry THEN we can enact Kucinich's amendment.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

451. Good grief, what a bunch of low-ambition codependents we have on this thread

You don't settle for what you THINK your opponent will accept.

You start out by asking for more than what you really want.

THEN you start bargaining. You don't give away the store before the robber has asked for it, which is exactly what the Dems did in this case.

AAARRGGGGH!

[Skittles]

502. I share your frustration

we've been tossed a bone and DUers are celebrating like it is a freaking buffet

[winyanstaz]

418. K & R...again...Dennis Kucinich was right on..

This bill sucks and it especially sucks for women.

[JaneFordA]

424. Some friends of mine just said...

... that Dennis and people like me (who support Kucinich drawing this line in the sane) are stubborn as mules. Well, we all know bad things about mules so I was a little put out with that.

BUT they don't stop until they drop, do they?

Fellow (mule???) progressives, I offer this as a theme song: MULE TRAIN, sung by the one, the only, the late great Tennessee Ernie Ford.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyl_3O6Y1ms

Jane the Pain//stubborn as a mule, I guess

[Shagbark Hickory]

429. Forgetting just one or two things though.

You can't make a profit selling health insurance if you actually pay the claims. There's just far too many people that need expensive healthcare procedures.
And
if you jack up the rates too much, the employers will not go for it either. Pay the fines or start their own insurance companies just for their employees.

[twitomy]

435. Amen Kucinich!

Lets stop this travesty in the Senate! And who would of thunk the far right and many progressives are both against this, albeit for completely different reasons. No prob with me; the enemy of my enemy is my friend. This common enemy is this debacle.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

441. As a person in the UK said today "what's the matter with them in America?"

meaing why are they stopping themselves having a fair health system

[Mithreal]

454. All the folks who criticized Kucinich for saying

a real public option was dead about a month ago should apologize to the community.

Propagandists don't apologize. Ever.

[Eyerish]

457. K&R

Thank you Dennis for standing up for the good of the American People. We need more like him for any real "change" to ever occur.

[autorank]

468. I support Dennins k*r

He's right on all points.

It's all about The Money Party and the relentless acquisition of everything that isn't mailed
down by the ultra rich.

If people don't like what Dennis did, they need to search inside and satisfy themselves that
they're really supporting a party that cares for the people. They can't so, so we hear a lot
of hate and derision. That's not an answer to selling out the citizens for the preservation
of the health insurance industry.

[pa28]

481. He provided reasons and voted with his principles.

I'm not sure why that earns him the flood of insults I've seen on this thread.

After all we've experienced in recent history an active citizen should be willing to think critically and ask whose interests are really being represented at public expense. Knowing we have people like DeFazio and D.K. willing to speak out against the party line if they see something wrong is a comforting thing IMO.

We all appreciate party loyalty, we're all Democrats presumably, but those who cross the border from party support to unquestioning boosterism are just asking to have their interests bought and sold.

[Laelth]

484. k&r for the Honorable Dennis Kucinich.

At least one person in this party is looking out for the interests of the people.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Zambero]

490. Sorry Dennis, I'm not buying it. Not one iota

Dennis "It's not perfect enough so I'll vote with the GOP & Blue Dogs" Kucinich will have amassed a solid wingnut voting record at this rate. Will he be out campaigning for fellow naysayer Michele Bachman before too much longer? I think there's still a ways to go with health care reform, but given political realities, half a pie is still better than none. Hat's off to Nancy Pelosi for pulling this off. Harry Reid has a tough act to follow!

[Skittles]

500. you don't fucking get it

because someone votes AGAINST something does not mean they're voting AGAINST it for the same reasons as everyone else. Repukes would vote no on ANY healthcare reform because they don't even admit there is a problem with healthcare in America. Kucinich voted no because this bill is NOT what the American people want. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

[billh58]

506. No, DK voted against

the HC Bill because he knew it would gain him points with his 2% Far Left following, and would not affect the outcome of the final tally. In the end, it was a contrarian publicity ploy worthy of Lyin' Joe and other grandstanding politicians who vote on faux "principles."