Quick Question: Is abortion covered under the Canadian plan or British NHS?

[Shagbark Hickory]

And if not then why don't we just take it out? I am pro choice but I don't think thing that aren't medically necessary should be covered. At least not at this stage of the game.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

1. Yes, down with recreational and cosmetic abortions.

Geez... "aren't medically necessary" is a hell of a phrase to toss around.

[Warpy]

7. Translation

Well, I am physically exempt from ever needing such an operation, so it must be a medically unnecessary thing.

Yeah, buddy, and so is Viagra when your pecker dies. I wish someone would add that to Stupid, er Stupak's amendment.

[imdjh]

22. A pregnancy is a disease or malfunction?

[Warpy]

61. It's a dangerous enterprise that shouldn't be accomplished unaided

I know men don't like to admit this part, it ruins the sex, but pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous. The fact that they are normal conditions is beside the point.

[me b zola]

65. I'll be happy when people no longer feel that they are entitled

to stick their big fat noses in a woman's exam room. Who the hell is anybody to presume to know what medical issues a woman faces except for that woman and her physician. :argh:

[imdjh]

71. A non sequitur.

[JerseygirlCT]

82. It's a condition

that may or may not be wanted. And that brings with it very real physical risks.

[Shagbark Hickory]

8. If I eat in my car and accidently spill food and drinks and stain my upholstery, should new ...

upholstery be covered by my auto insurance policy?

Lets try to be pragmatic here.

[PeaceNikki]

12. Are you kidding?

As long as abortion remains a legal, constitutionally protected medical procedure, it ought to be covered by insurance plans, private or public.

You're comparing a woman's choice to a fucking upholstery stain... are you?

[imdjh]

19. There are plenty of legal medical procedures which aren't covered by insurance.

If you break your nose playing softball, insurance will pay for a nose job which may or may not include a cosmetic improvement along the way. If you simply want a smaller nose, it won't pay.

[PeaceNikki]

21. So... are you saying abortion is like a cosmetic nose job or a broken nose nose job?

I don't see your point.

[imdjh]

25. There are elective abortions and medically necessary abortions.

These are not difficult terms.

[PeaceNikki]

34. And the pregnancy could also be deemed "elective".

[imdjh]

35. One you're pregnant, it's elected.

[PeaceNikki]

36. Not as long as we have "choice" in this country. But I see you're not a fan of that.

[imdjh]

41. I haven't said a word about choice.

You can legally choose to end the pregnancy. That doesn't make it medically necessary.

[PeaceNikki]

45. They are medically necessary. Or don't you consider a woman not wanting to carry the child

a necessity to terminate? You think it's in the best interest of the health of the mother and fetus for an unwanted pregnancy to go to term?

[noamnety]

90. Should insurance companies cover "elective" labor?

Since a woman can "elect" to terminate, or "elect" to carry a pregnancy to term, I guess (by your logic) prenatal care and labor and delivery shouldn't be covered either.

If they aren't going to cover expenses which aren't "medically necessary" one should remember that delivering a baby is not ever "medically necessary."

[Warren Stupidity]

37. There is a joke about upholstery stains here but I am so stunned

by the flaming ignorance and dullardry of some posters here that my ability to make light of the upthread attitude has vanished.

The rightwing has managed to turn many of us into rightwingers without being aware of the transformation.

[PeaceNikki]

48. An unwanted pregnancy is just like an upholstery stain.

It's a nuisance, ugly to look at and stuff... but you can just ignore it.

[Cass]

32. If you eat junk food all the time, should a heart bypass operation be

covered by your health insurance company?

That's where your argument leads. How about if you were skateboarding and fell and broke your leg. Should your health insurance policy cover that?

Many conditions are are due to a person's actions. Do you think coverage should be denied to people who do something to cause or exacerbate a condition?

[imdjh]

33. Thinking of pregnancy as a disease is pretty fucked up.

[PeaceNikki]

38. Thinking that you know better than a woman and her doctor is fucked up.

[Cass]

42. Nope, not saying that at all. Just pointing out that there are other conditions caused by one's

actions that also require medical procedures. Should coverage be dependent on whether or not the need for a procedure was caused by someone's actions?

[imdjh]

47. That might be something to talk about if my position was "You got fucked now live with it." but ...

... it isn't. My position is that pregnancy is a healthy function of a healthy body. Ending such a pregnancy is the choice of the woman in question , but it is not the responsibility of the state and was not part of the issue of legal abortion.

[Cass]

68. My original comment was directed to another poster who was making the point that

it shouldn't be covered since the pregnancy was caused by their own action. My comments were not directed to you, except to answer your incorrect assertion that I think pregnancy is a disease.

[dsc]

53. actually my medical insurance refused to pay for an auto accident I was in recently

so I wonder if they would pay for the skateboard accident.

[Cass]

70. At this rate, I woudn't be surprised if they wouldn't.

Did they think your auto insurance should cover your injuries from your accident?

[dsc]

76. the other driver's insurance did cover since, thank God, it was nothing

but an urgent care visit.

[Cass]

80. Glad to hear it wasn't anything more serious, dsc, and that your treatment was

covered.

[Hepburn]

55. Jeeeeeeeeeez....

...I would call you a Peckerhead, but it's obvious whatever you are thinking with is limp.

The reproductive rights of women in your mind rates with stained auto interior?

Ummmmm...fuck you.

[Jazzgirl]

67. Two times.

n/t

[Jazzgirl]

66. And spilling food on your upholstery has what to do with

being pregant??!!?? Pragmatic my ass.

[niyad]

99. let's try not to be an idiot here--are you so freaking clueless that you really don't understand the

issues? "not medically necessary"? do you unnderstand about things like, say, ectopic pregnancies? rape? toxemia?

apparently you belong to the kyl crowd, "I can't get pregnant, so it isn't important."

I pray to the goddess that any woman with whom you are involved never has to face thinking about an abortion, because she sure isn't going to get any support from you.

remdi95

[imdjh]

17. What would be another way of saying it?

[slackmaster]

31. The proper term for an abortion that is not medically necessary is "elective abortion"

Just like any other elective procedure.

[sandnsea]

2. Stupak wants the Hyde Amendment

I think we should just leave it that way for now.

If a woman wants to have abortion coverage in her insurance, she ought to be able to get it. Same as a man gets erectile dysfunction help and that certainly isn't necessary.

[madfloridian]

4. No, he wants to go further than just the Hyde amendment.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/11/7/801804/-HCR-House-Debate:-How-Bad-Is-the-Stupak-Amendment

[Hello_Kitty]

3. If I get pregnant and don't want to have the baby, abortion is a medical necessity.

Covering childbirth but not abortion is outrageously unfair.

[Shagbark Hickory]

5. OK Bad choice of words but please either answer the question or have the debate somewhere else.

[madfloridian]

6. So you want to control women's choices in medical care?

[Shagbark Hickory]

11. NO! I advocate getting abortions. I think many more people should get them, believe me.

But at this stage, I don't see why they would be covered under a health insurance policy. If it's covered in canada and the UK then I'm cool with it. If it's not then why are we even having this discussion?

Women are in complete control to get an abortion and pay out of pocket.

[PeaceNikki]

13. As long as abortion remains a legal, constitutionally protected medical procedure,

it ought to be covered by insurance plans, private or public.

[Posteritatis]

18. *facepalm* (nt)

[Darth_Kitten]

97. Pay out of pocket? Well, ain't that some nerve.......

Get ready to pay some more, gals, what with your lower rates of pay and apparently already paying more for insurance than most men.

:sarcasm:

[imdjh]

20. That's called an elective abortion. Medically necessary would be if it were medically necessary.

[Lars39]

23. Not when every single pregnancy holds the risk of death or injury.

[imdjh]

27. dated rhetoric

Leftover rhetoric from the legalization battle. Being legal and being medically necessary are not the same thing. The discussion now is if it should be universally paid for, and the answer is no, no more so than any other procedure which isn't medically necessary.

[CTyankee]

40. Go to the Guttmacher Institute for the latest info on health risks in pregnancy/births vs. 1st

trimester abortions. I think you will find the difference. Pregnancy/childbirth is more risky to a woman's health than a first trimester abortion. It must be legal and it must be accessible. If it is not accessible, it will become more dangerous the further on with the pregnancy. There is a public health interest in keeping women healthy.

Please do some homework on this. We don't want to have women dying in ERs across the country because they self induced an abortion with a coat hanger (not because abortion was illegal but because it was not affordable).

[Hello_Kitty]

43. If I ever get pregnant, abortion will be a medical necessity.

What others consider to be a Miracle from Gawd I would consider a parasite and I'd want the little fucker removed, posthaste.

Sorry if that doesn't jive with anyone's sentimentality but that's my view on the matter.

[imdjh]

50. That's revolting.

What others consider to be a Miracle from Gawd I would consider a parasite and I'd want the little fucker removed, posthaste.

Quoted so you can read it again if you decide to edit it.

[Hello_Kitty]

54. Why the fuck would I edit it? You're the fetus-worshipper, not me.

In the first trimester an insensate collection of cells. And I'd damn sure never let a pregnancy progress beyond that.

[niyad]

100. biologically, that is EXACTLY what the fetus is--it requires a host to survive, and can cause

all manner of dangerous problems for that host, wanted or not.

[TorchTheWitch]

95. You and me both

That's exactly what I personally condider it - an unwanted parasite I will be extremely relieved once it's removed.

And I absolutely will not apologize for it nor should I.

[noamnety]

105. Woah, you are way out of line with that post.

You failed to note number 2 of the national Memo To Women:

------------------------------------------

1. If you need health care, the Whiteman's Club will let you know which procedures they will allow you to have.

2. If you become pregnant, the Whiteman's Club will let you know which emotions are an approved response to this event.

3. If you become pregnant, the Whiteman's Club will need you to document in writing what your state of mind was during the conception in order to assess whether or not you are worthy of the full range of health care, or whether you are a slut and need to be restricted to only certain procedures as punishment.

4. Please remember that if you get pregnant but are still morally pure (you resisted sex), you are only entitled to the full range of health care options if you followed proper protocol within 24 hours at a police station or ER to document that a) you had sex, and b) you resisted. Failure to document that you just-had-sex-but-aren't-a-slut within the required timeframe will negate any claims that you are a rape victim, and consent-after-the-fact will be presumed.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. We rank 41 in maternal death rates.

But I digress. Why in your rightwing perspective on health care morality should pregnancy be covered? After all, just as with abortion, it is merely a choice, and a far more expensive one, to carry the child to term and have a medically assisted delivery, than to spend a few hundred bucks on an abortion. So why exactly is the 'carry to term' choice covered but the 'abort the pregnancy' choice not covered?

[imdjh]

57. I've never understood why people see clear political alignment in the abortion issue

[PeaceNikki]

59. If you had a chance of getting pregnant, you might.

Or some common sense.

[imdjh]

72. Sorry. I thought you were asking other people to help pay for elective abortions. My mistake.

As long as you're paying for it, 100%, then it's really no one else's business.

[Hello_Kitty]

73. Other people already are helping women pay for elective abortions

Some private plans cover it now and MediCal covers abortion in CA.

[imdjh]

75. I'm really not interested in talking to you anymore.

[PeaceNikki]

77. But you're ok with you and the rest of "society" paying for prenatal care and delivery

of a completely unwanted pregnancy?

[imdjh]

78. ... or being tag teamed.

[PeaceNikki]

79. ??

mmmmkay.

Oh, I get it. You're feigning shock that your opinion is being challenged on DU by more than one person and think it's an organized attack against you. LOL

[Hello_Kitty]

84. We just don't share his love of the fetus. eom

[Warren Stupidity]

93. You are the victim here, aren't you?

Of course. Poor you.

[Warren Stupidity]

94. Oh I don't know, perhaps because it is one of the two favorite right wing wedge issues?

But you failed to even attempt to explain in your moralistic rightwing world view, why the choice of carrying to term should be covered while the choice of not carrying to term should not. Please do expain this odd inconsistency.

[imdjh]

98. You're asking me to explain the reasoning of caring for life rather than ending it?

How intellectually remote.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. Ah so then your original argument was a facade.

You appear to be admitting that the argument that abortion should not be covered because it is 'a choice' and not a 'medical necessity' is just smoke you are blowing in front of your opposition to abortion and your desire to impose your opposition on the women who cannot afford this medical procedure. For you abortion should not be covered because you are opposed on moral grounds to abortion, and it seems you are willing to push your opposition to the level of making false arguments to support your world view.


I find that rather dishonest on your part.

[imdjh]

104. There's no change or dishonesty to it.

You asked why (presumably I) reason that carrying to term ought to be covered when elective abortion shouldn't. When a woman is pregnant, medical care for her pregnancy and the health of the fetus is the maintenance of a natural and healthy process. Terminating the pregnancy for other than critical reasons, is not the maintenance of a natural and healthy process. You appear to be disingenuously making the case that removing a tumor and removing a healthy earlobe are the same because both involve separating tissue from the body which it doesn't need to survive. That is simply not the case. Removing the tumor is health care, removing the healthy earlobe is mutilation.

[Lars39]

85. Your neanderthal approach to women's healthcare has been noted.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. If I get pregnant I will NEED an abortion.

Get it through your head.

If they're going to MAKE women have insurance they goddamn well better cover medical procedures we need.

[The Straight Story]

9. We are America, and we do things better than those Canadians and Brits

So we should cover it whether they do or not ;)

[enlightenment]

10. Yes.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/abortion/Pages/Introduction.aspx
The Abortion Act 1967 covers the UK mainland (England, Scotland, and Wales), but not Northern Ireland. The law states that:

* Abortions must be carried out in a hospital or a specialised licensed clinic.
* Two doctors must agree that an abortion would cause less damage to a woman's physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy.

http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/postionpapers/02-Abortion-Clinics-Fully-Funded.PDF
Abortion services have been deemed "medically required" by all provinces. This means that all abortions must be publicly funded, regardless of where they are performed, in hospitals or clinics. Abortion clinics fall under the category of "hospitals" in the Canada Health Act because they deliver a medically-required hospital service.1


edited to remove snark.

[Shagbark Hickory]

14. Thank You. It should be covered then. Case Closed.

[csziggy]

28. Why should whether another country covers abortion make the decision here?

The US Supreme Court has held that a woman may legally get an abortion under certain circumstances in this country. Unless Roe vs. Wade is overturned, those criteria should be what determine whether or not abortion may be covered under a health care plan.

What the UK, Canada or any other country does or does not allow is irrelevant to what should be allowed here.

[Hello_Kitty]

16. The British rule raises an interesting thought

Two doctors must agree that an abortion would cause less damage to a woman's physical or mental health than continuing with the pregnancy.

Seems to me abortion would nearly always cause less damage to a woman's physical health than continuing a pregnancy.

[sandnsea]

24. An abortion panel, like we had 40 years ago

and part of what Roe v Wade did away with.

Yet some people think that's progress. Screwy.

[dustbunnie]

30. Not sure, but I think that's if you want to have an abortion at no cost.

Also, I've been told it's largely a formality, albeit one of inconvenience.

[sandnsea]

49. As it was for rich women in the 60s

It's absolutely ridiculous that anybody would pretend that an abortion panel for women on Medicaid would be acceptable, and absolutely outrageous that anybody would think it is acceptable. It's not. It would be preferable if abortion were considered a necessary medical treatment, then again I have no idea how much it would add to the cost of medical care and I don't think anybody would choose to bankrupt health care in order to provide abortions.

[imdjh]

56. When I was a kid, the guy was supposed to pay for the abortion.

[Hekate]

83. Only if he was a "gentleman" and didn't tell everyone you were a slut to get out of it...

The amount of social condemnation attached to out of wedlock pregnancy would stun anyone born after Roe.

Hekate

[enlightenment]

86. That would be my take on it - but hey, I'm just a woman

What do I know . . .?

It's actually not an odious process - no worse than the hoops that women have to jump through in this country (or so I understand from friends in the UK).

[BigBluenoser]

15. If I remember correctly...

They aren't all "free" in Canada - or they weren't a decade ago. I remember a guy I knew griping he had to come up with $300.00 to pay for one. I also remember other friends and people talking about paying for them. No idea what % of the cost of an abortion that covers.

I *think* you can get one done at the hospital for no out of pocket cost, but everyone I know that had one went to an abortion clinic so they could avoid the hassle of dealing with the hospital. Hospitals are just as the same sprawling mounds of white tile and pea green walls up there as they are in the US - just an unpleasant place to be in general. And my part of Canada ain't exactly high rollin' so I assume they had a good reason to them to drop the coin (discretion? comfort? convenience?).

[dustbunnie]

26. Hospitals and clinics are free. But paying for them out of pocket buys privacy.

Depends where in the country you are and what services are available. Someone who lives in a small town might prefer having it done at her gyno's private space rather than travel to a hospital where everyone's herded together into a room before and after.

[imdjh]

29. The real answer is that they'll just find something else. I would throw abortion under the bus...

... in a heartbeat for Single Payer. But the Republicans and other sellout jackasses won't vote for Single Payer if you take out abortion, they'll find some other reason to oppose it. Same with Public Option. That's because they are liars. They aren't trying to save the taxpayers money, they are trying to serve their masters in the insurance industry.

[buzzard]

39. This is the latest info from Canada and for the most part they are covered.

"In Canada, access to health services is guaranteed by the Canada Health Act. Abortion is considered a safe, legal, insured and funded service, meaning that a woman should not have to pay for abortion services in Canada."



http://www.prochoice.org/canada/access.html

[sandnsea]

51. It varies

http://www.prochoice.org/canada/regional.html

[Hepburn]

52. Wow...the OP is a MALE....

....whodda guessed.... :sarcasm:

When you grow a womb, then you get an opinion on abortion. Until then ~~ STFU.

[dsc]

58. uh sorry but when you demand that he pays for it then he gets an opinion

If you pay for the abortion then you have a point but if you expect socieity, made up of both males and females to do so, then you give those males a say.

[PeaceNikki]

60. They had a "say" when they had sex and risked pregnancy.

If not abortion, "society" would pay for the prenatal care and delivery.... so I am not buying that argument. Should "society" get involved of other medical decisions? Birth control? The proper treatment for diabetes?

ETA... I rec'd the thread you started in which YOU said "Imagine if Jesse Helms could have banned private insurers from paying for AZT. ".

[dsc]

62. To some extent yes, and it should be noted we do already get involved in those decisions

I can't buy needles, needed to take insulin, without a prescription due to government regulation for example. I am sure people with diabetes would prefer to get needles without prescriptions but they can't.

On edit, I actually strongly disagree with the amendment the House is apparently about to pass, because I feel that medical decisions should be made by medical professionals and not Congressmen, but I do think that purely elective abortions shouldn't be directly funded by the government and that once you have government funding any abortions then males do get some say just like females get a say over war policy despite not being draftable.

[imdjh]

74. Sounds like you're saying that if he'd kept his knees together, he wouldn't be in trouble. LOL!

[Hepburn]

64. Well, does that UNlogic go for my tax dollars and the stinking wars?

Just curious...:eyes:

[dsc]

69. Yes I have never, not a single solitary time, seen any poster at this site told they

don't have a right to have an opinion about those subjects due to gender. If you can find someone being told that on this site I will condemn it.

[Oregone]

63. Under the British Columbian MSP, abortions are free

Medications needed after surgery may be out of pocket. I think it is like that in most of the other provinces of Canada too

[Blue_Tires]

81. because if you take it out; if you keep ceding ground issue by issue,

the gop and blue dog shills simply find something else to contest and THEY WILL STILL VOTE AGAINST IT ANYWAY

[CraftyGal]

87. I can answer for the Canadian Law.

Legality

The Supreme Court of Canada has deemed abortion a criminal law matter that is within Federal jurisdiction. Consequently, provincial legislatures have very little power to regulate abortion, even if done indirectly. Thus, the discussion on the law on abortion in Canada turns almost entirely around the state of the criminal law.

Section 287 of the Criminal Code is the abortion provision drafted by Pierre Trudeau and passed in 1969. Prior to 1969, taking steps to cause an abortion was an offence liable to life imprisonment.<3> However, the Trudeau scheme made an exception for abortions performed in a hospital with the approval of that hospital’s three-doctor therapeutic abortion committee. The committee would have to certify that the pregnancy would be likely to endanger the life or health of the pregnant woman. The term health was not defined, and therapeutic abortion committees were free to develop their own theories as to when a likely danger to “health” (which might include psychological health) would justify a therapeutic abortion.

In 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada decision in Her Majesty, The Queen in Right of Canada v. Dr. Henry Morgentaler, Dr. Leslie Frank Smoling and Dr. Robert Scott, indexed by the court as R. v. Morgentaler, declared this entire section to be of no force or effect because it was held to violate section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 7 states that: “Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.”

The majority of the Court held that “the structure of the system regulating access to therapeutic abortions is manifestly unfair. It contains so many potential barriers to its own operation that the it creates will in many circumstances be practically unavailable to women who would prima facie qualify”. As such, the provision was held to violate the principles of fundamental justice and was struck down, leaving Canada with a legislative vacuum to this day.

Access throughout Canada

Abortions in Canada are provided on request and funded by Medicare, to Canadian citizens and permanent residents (as with most medical procedures) in hospitals across the country. Abortion funding for hospitals comes from the various provincial governments (their overall health expenses are however paid for in part by the federal government). One-third of hospitals perform abortions, and these perform two-thirds of abortions in the country. The remaining abortions are performed by public and private-for-profit clinics.

Medical abortion is available in Canada on a limited basis using methotrexate and misoprostol; mifepristone (more widely known as RU-486) is not legally approved, and importation of that drug in Canada is currently illegal. Clinical trials were done in 2000 in various Canadian cities comparing methotrexate to mifepristone, after approbation by the federal government. While both drugs had overall similar results, mifepristone was found to act faster.<4> As of May 2005, it is unclear whether or when RU-486 will be approved for use in Canada.

Here are two pieces of information about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada">abortion in Canada. I am glad that Dr. Morgentaler fought all the way to the supreme court, otherwise I would have had 4 children under the age of 5. When my daughter was only 4 months old I had an abortion, which was one of the hardest decisions of my life. The father had left it all in my hands and didn't want to step up to the plate with his baby. My daughter had sleep apnea and she almost died because I didn't hear the heat monitor, yet the securoity person did. Thankfully they had a key and were trained in infant CPR so they were able to save her.

I remember going to the hopsital to have the abortion and being accosted with words such as "baby killer", "you have choice", etc. I finally stopped in my tracks looked at every single person in the eyes and said so who is going to help with the infant at home, while I am on bed rest as I am a high risk pregnancy? Who was going to make sure that my infant had home didn't die because I was so tired that I slept through a piercing alarm? They went quiet and I turned around and walked into the hospital to have the abortion. If anyone says that abortion is easy, it isn't. I was an emotional reck for a long time afterward. I will always be pro-choice because I will never now what is going on for a woman that has to make that choice.

CraftyGal

[SoCalDem]

88. At the core, the objections are FINANCIAL

If the procedure is not paid for with public money, a lot of the zealots "go away".. why?

because they would never KNOW... which is as it should be.

A woman should be able to decide on her own, with her doctor, and if it's legal (which it currently is) it's NO ONE'S BUSINESS, any more than any other medical procedure.

If it's used as a "birth control mechanism", that's another issue that can/could be dealt with separately.

Women do not choose abortion lightly, and the decision to have one should always be a TWO-party event..the woman and her doctor. IF the father is in the mix, should also be up to the woman.

Politicized abortion is the most insane thing I have ever seen.. and once politicians can wash their hands of the whole issue, we will all be better off.

Illegal abortions meant unsafe conditions, but it rarely stopped them from happening, any more than speed limit signs stopped people from speeding. Women will always have unwanted pregnancies, and people will always speed.

The fierce anti-abortion people are all about control..many (most?) of them don't even advocate jail sentences for people who would break their proposed laws (except they are ok for death sentences, by their own hands, of the doctors)

[tinrobot]

89. It's politics, pure and simple

Sadly, abortion was the political compromise that had to be made for this bill to pass.

I don't agree with it, but it's the way the system works. Hopefully, someday this will be rectified, but I'm still happy the bill passed.

[Sparkly]

91. "Medically necessary" -- the HEALTH of the woman is NOT protected with this.

This is a major setback.

[ipaint]

92. Aid to women overseas for abortions

but no taxpayer insurance subsidies for women here????

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/24/us/politics/24obama.html

[Darth_Kitten]

96. I think men who don't carry their weight in the home in regards to children shouldn't be covered.

There. :eyes:

[EndersDame]

101. I being most sincere when I say , why don't you go volunteer at planned parenthood as a handholder

after meeting women(from 14 year old high school student to 45 year old dishwasher with 5 kids) having this procedure and going through the steps . I bet you would change your mind and see why it is needed

[Heidi]

102. It's covered in Switzerland. And guess what? A doctor is better positioned to decide

what's "medically necessary" than you are. In fact, I as a woman am better prepared to decide what's "medically necessary" for me than you are. :hi: