I do not support this bill

[AllentownJake]

The mandate provision amounts nothing more than a tax on the middle class and working Americans, will do little to control costs, and is going to be a disaster politically.

Fining or jailing working Americans is not the answer to the Health Insurance issue. You have moved people who were in a bad financial situation into a worse one and the United States congress is about to vote to take more from them.

Futher, since it is impossible to control rate increases Americans will now be subject to a tax increase every year that they will not have voted for.

I pray if this passes the Supreme Court smacks it down as mandating Americans to purchase a product from the private market is unconstitutional and unprecedented.

This bill is a slap in the face, and it should fail.

[Sebastian Doyle]

1. Let me add my non-endorsement

National RomneyCare/mandatory rewarding corporate insurance criminals will be the death of the Democratic party, as the voters will turn on whoever voted for it. And deservedly so.

[BlueDemKev]

70. The bill is not perfect, however....

....no health reform bill can or will be perfect. This is an extremely complicated issue which is between 15-20 percent of the gross domestic product. It is not possible for everyone to agree with every single detail in a health care reform bill.

However, this bill is a big start to correcting the grave injustices in our health care system: banning pre-existing exclusions, a public option to keep insurance companies in line, no longer will anyone have to worry about having their coverage cut out just because they have become "too ill." Republicans have said that they believe this is the first step toward single-payer, universal care. If that's true, then why would any progressive be against passing this bill.

Health care reform is the central pillar of Obama's domestic agenda. If we fail to pass it, Obama's political clout will fall apart, and he will have no ability to persuade Congress to pass other critical legislation such as tougher environmental laws, banning discrimination against minorities, and more regulation of Wall Street's reckless behavior. The Republicans will sweep into the majority in next year's elections, and this country will be run by a bunch of tea-bagging, birthing, right-wing extremists. Would this be in our country's best interest?

Health care reform is more than 50 years overdue. Today we have a chance to do what should have done even before Obama was born. Let's not let this slip away because this particular bill, which isn't even the final one, is not 100% perfect.

Go to www.thehill.com, click on Updated House Whip Count, and CALL EVERY MEMBER OF THE UNDECIDEDS' OFFICES. The number is 202-224-3121. Consider the alternative. We have no choice but to pass this bill. Please get on the phone now.

[Sebastian Doyle]

71. "Not perfect" is way too charitable. This bill (and so called "public option") is a fucking JOKE.

A "public option" is useless if it's not open to everyone, because that is the whole POINT, of forcing the corporations into competition, and cleaning up their act.

This does just the opposite - it forces nearly everyone to buy corporate insurance and pay their CEO's ridiculous salaries.

It will be just like internet access.... you pay a hell of a lot more for it than they do in any other country and you get a much shittier product, because it's all going to some greedy corporate bastard. Except nobody dies from shitty internet access :evilfrown:

[BlueDemKev]

126. Listen to me & Listen CAREFULLY....

If this bill is defeated, we are GONE. Obama's presidency will be dealt a crippling, if not fatal blow. The tea-baggers will take over the Congress next year and they will run this country off a fucking cliff!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your attitude is the type of stubborness that prevents us from staying in power which would allow us to incrementally move towards progressive goals. If this health care reform effort fails, we'll have no one to blame but ourselves.

And BTW....if this House bill is SO pro-business, then why are the Republicans totally, 100 percent AGAINST it?????

[AllentownJake]

135. I think the five year prison sentence

some idiot put into this bill will do enough damage in 2010...I swear we have some idiots in congress.

[Sebastian Doyle]

136. With a Presidential electoral landslide last year and a supposed majority in both houses

..we shouldn't have to settle for a "incremental" approach to ANYTHING.

We should be able to pass single payer, and fuck what the Repukes, Teabaggers, or corporations think about it.

But we can't do that because FUCKING TREASONOUS COWARDS like the DLC and the Blue Cross Republidems are standing in our way.

And it's THEIR attitude that is the problem. Not those of us who want this country to catch up with the rest of the fucking planet.

[BlueDemKev]

144. Be Pragmatic in Your Goals.

Time and again whenever we try to push a progressive agenda too hard and/or too quickly, we run into huge public resistance, suffer election losses, and then our agenda gets set back for years. Sadly, there are more conservatives in America than there are liberals...roughly 34% conservative, 21% liberal, and 45% independents.

The truth is this: you can't just reform 18% of the nation's gross domestic product all at once without freaking people out. Our opponents capitalize on that fear and voters turn against us. But taking a step-by-step process, we can succeed in taking a huge task and fix it over a period of about 8 to 10 years. But let's at least start the process.

Remember, the 1957 Civil Rights Act was a little-known piece of legislation which Eisenhower signed into law. It didn't do nearly enough to bring about civil rights for blacks, but it BEGAN THE PROCESS and laid the groundwork for more civil rights legislation. Just seven years later, in 1964, Congress passed an sweeping, comprehensive civil rights bill and the days of segregation were history.

Had we began the process of fixing health care back in 1994, we could very well have had single-payer by now. But we pushed too hard, and the public pushed back. And then we lost our majority in Congress stalling needed efforts to the next 12 years. Let's not make that same mistake again. My God, we cannot afford to wait another 15-20 years to begin fixing our broken health care system. We need to start NOW. We need to pass this bill TONIGHT.

[backwoodsbob]

157. pragmatism isn't forcing people into private healthcare

this better not pass

[BlueDemKev]

161. If requiring people to carry insurance is wrong....

...that requiring hospitals to treat someone without insurance (and thus has no means to pay) is also wrong.

Congress has the constitutional authority to regulate commerce, and this is long overdue.

[harmonicon]

180. wow....

You really think that? Really?! Where in the constitution does it say that it is the duty of every American, under penalty of law, to participate in a capitalist economy?

[Chan790]

232. Do me a favor...

get bent and fuck off.

[BREMPRO]

198. excellent analysis and historical perspective BDK- i've been arguing these point for weeks

the hardcore left progressives here don't get it. Kennedy is the best example of this approach. Fight hard for your progressive principles, but accept compromise to the edge of what is politically feasible and fight the battle a new day. You can't push a sharply divided country and corporate behemoth too far without losing your majority. Thanks for adding your thoughtful perspective.

[bertman]

170. Thank you, Sebastian Doyle. You speak for me on this.

[harmonicon]

177. +1

[CoffeeCat]

147. The politicians are playing games...

The politicians met with the health-insurance lobby months before the healthcare legislation was penned.

The corporations donated money to our politicians, and promised them more money. In exchange, politicians
on both sides agreed that no meaningful healthcare reform would pass. Corporate profits were safe.

But...what about the public? The politicians knew they had to "play to the masses" and make it look like
they were slogging through the legislative process. The right screamed "socialism" and the left feigns
interest in public health.

Our politicians are bought and paid for. Our country is run by the corporations who broker deals through
our politicians. We don't matter. At all.

However, the politicians need to keep the game going. They need the Dems angry and afraid of the teabagging
freaks. Conversely, they need the teabaggers terrified of the "socialists" and "Marxists" who will destroy
this country.

We are all being played. We are all being played to.

It's all a lie.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

207. Wow, what a negative attitude. 100% accurate though.

The only change that I would make in your post is to replace the word (But..what about the) public with the word peasants.

That is how most politicians view the "common man & woman". The only time that we matter is during re-election years.

For the majority of our elected officials, we're seen as nothing more than something that gets scraped off the bottoms of their shoes.

[Myrina]

211. +10

:applause:

[phasma ex machina]

229. +1 nt

[Go2Peace]

148. This bill has political risk. It won't solve the deeper problems and it may come back to bite

the Dems.

I am not entirely against the bill, if it is truly all we can do. But you are wrong thinking that this bill is a good thing politically. The Dems will be SAVAGED by all the weaknesses and by the fact that what they passed will cost a lot of money but not make the promised change.

It would be better for the leadership to relabel this bill, something along the lines of "Help Cover America", then call it for what it is.

[Laelth]

155. I disagree.

I believe that if this bill PASSES, then we are GONE. Passing this turd of a bill, and forcing the individual mandate on the uninsured, will cost the Democratic Party dearly in 2010. We will rightly be punished if we force this bad legislation on the American people.

The country and the Party would both be better off if we did not pass this bill.

:dem:

-Laelth

[BlueDemKev]

167. That's what we said back in the Summer of '94....

...and we lost 54 House seats and 9 Senate seats that November. Do you actually think that those who are against health care reform will go out and vote Democratic if we leave the status quo as it is?

[John Q. Citizen]

201. Ever hear of NAFTA? Clinton pushed it down our throats, minority of Dems supported it.

And the Unions stayed home then in 1994.

My Dem congressman was reelected. He opposed NAFTA

Kucinich took the only Republican seat that year. He opposed NAFTA.

Clinton lost congress by forcing the Republican idea, NAFTA. down our throats.

[Laelth]

238. I don't recall that being said in '94.

However, this is a very different time. California is on the verge of passing single-payer by themselves. They'll almost certainly do it in 2011. All they need is a Democratic Governor. The legislature has already passed the bill. Schwarzenegger vetoed it. Once California has single-payer, most (if not all) states will follow suit.

It's likely that if we pass a new law now, the new law will preempt single-payer, i.e. the Federal law will preempt state law and prevent states from enacting a single-payer system.

THIS is what the health insurance companies fear. THIS is what brought them to the bargaining table. THIS is why they are not fighting Obama's tepid reforms, and THIS is why it is extremely important that we do not pass any health insurance reform bill this year.

Let's not settle for a bail-out of the health insurance industry. Let's insist on the eradication of it. In all likelihood, California will lead the way in 2011 ... if we can just give them time.

:dem:

-Laelth

[robinlynne]

162. only becuase they want Obama to have "failed". no other reason.

They have said so from the beginning. They are voting no on EVERY bill he supports.period.

[ooglymoogly]

163. The reason the pukes are 100% against it is they want democrats

to fail at any endeavor we attempt. However if this bill is a fraud, folks will soon realize it and that will be the end of our majority. If it passes I will support it. If it fails we need to look at the back room dealing, that has turned off the grass roots, to find out why it failed. An Orwellian bill is not the mend all you think it is.
If we face this challenge with honesty instead of wheeling and dealing in bad faith in back rooms, we still can turn this around politically. The DLC'ers think that we dem proles are stupid because the pug proles are stupid but scream louder.

[JVS]

189. There is another reason the pukes are 100% against it.

They're going all in. They think this bill is going to suck and they want to be able to say "We tried to stop this" if and when the effects of this bill are unpopular.

[ooglymoogly]

193. Good point and exactly and that is just what will

happen if what I have read in the bill and read about this bill is true. Our majority will be gone in a flash and the pugs will crow from the rooftops and that will be the final curtain for this country as a democracy.

[Fading Captain]

195. We were GONE the minute we entertained supporting this weak-ass, bullshit corporate giveaway

NM

[pundaint]

209. I read carefully and I say

If my requirements are not being met, I don't care who is not meeting them, they should be replaced. You worry too much, nobody is going to take THIS Congress away from their corporate handlers, and that is why we must fire them all, except for Dennis. I hope Obama is challenged in the primary so I will have someone to vote for.

I don't want anybody to have Power over me. I want my public servants to serve me as part of the public, not private corporations. This congress is moving so incrementally, that we are falling further behind. Heading in the wrong direction, however slowly, is not progress.

Are you trying to make the case that Republicans act rationally? Maybe they're playing winning three-dimensional chess, wherein they poison a bill so badly during it's formation, that only a rube would fall for passing it, because at it's core it's indefensible. Republicans have been using this gambit for a while. Just yesterday Rep Wilson criticized the administration for not having the flu vaccine he voted against funding.

Not quite 100 percent. They've already gutted Health Insurance reform with the, the Democrats caving in before they were even asked, and continuing right through to the very night of passage with Stupak's amendment. Once the trap was set, they were able to mostly reject this piece of garbage, preserving their ability to run against it next year. Only Dennis was smart enough to keep out of their trap.

This is exactly different from sports - there it doesn't matter what they do, so who is number 1 is important, in Congress it only matters what they do, not who did it. If my guys are not working for me, they need to be fired. In this case, except for Dennis Kucinich, everybody needs to be fired. The Blue Dogs and Republicans, for writing a bad bill, and the rest for passing it.

[Chan790]

230. Frankly...

I don't give a damn anymore. One issue voter and he just choked on it. I care not a lick for the rest of his quisling agenda.

"No bill!" better than this bill!

[gorfle]

231. Pardon me if I don't cry a river for them.

If this bill is defeated, we are GONE. Obama's presidency will be dealt a crippling, if not fatal blow.

If they pissed away the most momentum we've seen for the Democrats in nearly a decade pardon me if I don't cry many tears of sympathy.

[SandWalker1984]

173. What good is pre-existing condition protection if they raise your premiums so high you can't pay?

Someone posted:
"However, this bill is a big start to correcting the grave injustices in our health care system: banning pre-existing exclusions, a public option to keep insurance companies in line, no longer will anyone have to worry about having their coverage cut out just because they have become "too ill."


If you've spent hours reading the legislation as I have, trying to understand the bill, you would know

(1) the public option is a farce meant to fail, and fail quickly. For it to be competition it must be open to all Americans, not just 2 or 3% and it must cost less than private insurance.

(2) forcing insurance corporations to cover pre-existing conditions without putting regulations on premium pricing will give the insurance corporations the loopholes to price these people out of the market. What's the difference if the insurance corporation drops you or you must drop the insurance due to costs? Either way, you lose your coverage. The insurance corporations will force these people to opt out to the "public option" plan, driving the costs of the public option sky high.


I fought long and hard to get Obama elected because he promised real change, real reform. Candidate Obama and President Obama are 2 entirely different people. I liked Candidate Obama. President Obama is turning out to be a another corporate toady.

[man4allcats]

233. I suspect you are right on this.

Leave it to the Democrats to turn sweeping electoral victories into a total disaster. There must be a market for that kind of skill, but it is beyond me to imagine what form such a market might take.

[emulatorloo]

2. If you can't afford it, you won't have to buy it.

From my understanding you will only have to buy if you can afford to buy it.

People in bad financial situations will be helped.

It is worth noting that the Insurance Companies hate this bill. They are spending tons of money to defeat it. There is a lot of disinformation out there. If it was so good for them, they would not be doing that.

[AllentownJake]

3. Define afford it

Congress likes to make those definitions for us.

I'm sure they will be taking into consideration Americans who are currently underwater in their house and paying massive debt to the bankers that were bailed out.

[emulatorloo]

12. NOt my job. However there are precedents -- people who qualify for assistance (help with rent, food

stamps) qualify for those programs based on guidelines that apparently are not that onerous.

[Kansas Wyatt]

176. The Government's definition of poverty rate is a fucking joke.

It always has been and always will be.

If you lower the bar, you can DENY a problem exists and you DON'T have to do anything about it.

And yes, that is why they place the poverty rate so low.

[saracat]

199. Not your job? But it is your job to tell us to support this?

I know by what has been done so far I will not qualify for this under any circumstances.The only way most of us could get any real assistance is to completely divest themselves of any assets.What is affordable means different things to different people and for different reasons.

[pattmarty]

218. Well, evidently you never had to "qualify for assistance"...........

Nowadays you have to be dead and in debt for a gazillion dollars and to not had a job for 100 yrs. I am being facetious, but obviously making 75K per yr does not make you poor OR working class. I just love "you" armchair "progressives".

[LibDemAlways]

172. I agree. It's impossible to determine what's "affordable." It depends

not only on how much money a family has, but where they live, what their monthly expenses are, how many people in the family, etc. Determining by some bullshit calculation what's "affordable" and then fining people for not purchasing insurance because the truth is they can't afford it is political suicide. Mandates, if enacted, will lead to massive loss of Dem seats in Congress. If the unemployment situation doesn't improve by next year, the Dems will already be on the chopping block. A really shitty health care bill requiring people to stuff the coffers of the insurance companies or face penalties will absolutely be the death knell of the Democratic-controlled Congress.

[tridim]

5. And the OP is right there on the Insurance Company bandwagon.

They thank you for your support.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[AllentownJake]

17. I'm against this particular bill

The GOP could create a bill and call it Health Care reform, I'd probably be against that bill too.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AllentownJake]

23. I'm sorry

I'm against a bad bill. I don't give a shit which political party introduces it. I support the democratic party when they support democratic principles.

Democrats voted for the Iraq war, I didn't support that either.

[emulatorloo]

27. Grayson and Weiner are behind this bill and will be voting for it. Just because it isnt perfect

doesn't mean it is bad. What is bad is the STATUS QUO.

I will remind you that medicare and social security have both been expanded from what they were when they were originally passed.

[Chan790]

234. This bill is worse than the status quo.

I believe they are well-meaning and wrong. Both have taken the incorrect position that any reform is better than no reform, which is simply not true.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[AllentownJake]

44. I do more work for the democratic party than most on this board

in 15 minutes I'm leaving to help set up a kick off event for a candidate next year...if you want to kick me out of the party...go ahead. I'd be more than happy to piss outside of the tent.

[tridim]

45. Are you going to tell your candidate that you don't support Democratic principles?

And that you don't support HCR?

Which candidate? I'd like to have a talk with him or her.

[AllentownJake]

47. I've already had this conversation

I'm not a single issue voter...you want to call Patrick Slattery or John Callahan and tell them they don't need me as a volunteer next year go right ahead.

That being said, they do that, next time I get a phone call, Jake can you run this here, or Jake can you work this booth for an hour or Jake can you do this or that...I'll say no.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AllentownJake]

50. How am I working for the GOP

There are 40 democratic congressman who will vote against this bill today...maybe you should be more concerned about them than a grassroots volunteer.

I'm actually doing work for democratic candidates do you do that?

:rofl:

[JVS]

52. Big tent means that there are perfectly good democrats that insist on single payer only.

[AllentownJake]

54. No the Big Tent is only for Pro-Life, Pro-Wall Street Democrats, Pro-War Democrats

The liberals are worse than Hitler don't you know?

[JVS]

59. Well that seems positively fascist!

[tridim]

62. True, but ATJ isn't one of them. The bill is being voted on today.

This isn't some abstract idea, it's our fucking future.

AllentownJake is fighting against the Democratic bill.

[AllentownJake]

81. "Fighting against the bill"

I posted something on DU and on my Facebook page and deleted the email from OFA this morning. I didn't know my opinion is now subject to the the thought police.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

212. Your statements are a perfect example as to why

elected Democrats can continue to serve their corporate masters without reprimand by the voters. If they can do the bidding of the insurance companies and other corporate masters and at the same time have people that vote for them defend their actions. It makes it very easy for them to operate. Thank you for continuing to accept the status quo, it only insures nothing will ever change.

[Scarsdale Vibe]

68. There aren't perfectly good Democrats that insist only on single-payer.

Those people are essentially arguing for the deaths of hundreds of thousands Americans because of their ideological intransigence. Government policy has consequences, and when you argue against a policy that will save lives, you are a sociopath. I'm not sure how Alan Grayson became a hero to the ideologues on the left, he probably thinks they're just as murderous as their Republican brethren that want to kill the House/Senate bills.

[JVS]

69. Sorry. You lose. We allowed supporters of wars that have killed millions into the party for the...

sake of the big tent, and the blood on their hands is much more direct than the tenuous claim you make. Big tent!

[BOG PERSON]

98. It's actually the other way around

War-supporters and racist trash have always been the core of the party, but for the sake of "the big tent", the would-be reformers, incrementalists and peaceniks were allowed in.

[Chan790]

235. Gladly...

want to save me the step and give me campaign office phone numbers too.

I'm not kidding, I want to expel the DLC/centrist/corporatist bloc from this party at any cost. It's time the tent got a little smaller. You might be a loyal foot-soldier but you're not special and if you cannot see clear to support the working class of this country against the hegemonic forces of unrestrained capitalism, we don't need you.

Any of you.

Blue Dogs, go home.

[Hutzpa]

55. You always say that

like it's some sort of holy grail, do you know how many people on
this forum do work for Democrats? do you know how many people on this
board work for charities? Do you see them put it on a pedestal
every time they get the chance...no, they let there work
speak for it self.

What type of work have you done for democrats? if you're so incline
to mention it every given time you get asked a question?

It's like you're using that argument to deter any further discussion
from whatever topic a member might have cornered you on. :puke:
Self praise, let other folks acknowledge your work, if there is
any you can show us that is.

So...go on, show us your work that you have done for Democrats?

[AllentownJake]

56. Cornered?

:rofl:

Ok, I gotta go, I seriously have to help someone set up an event...have fun with your flame wars.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AllentownJake]

78. Ok back

It is going to be a wonderful event.

Anyway, back to what you were accusing me of was it Treason, hating the President, or wanting Republicans to get elected.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raineyb]

101. This bill doesn't make it affordable!

It's a sloppy wet kiss to the goddamn insurance companies. It seems more selfish to me to be for a bill just to say you passed something no matter how big a turd it is rather than trying to get something at will actually serve the people. But doing that is too hard so we'll get crap that doesn't do a think and then the Democratic party will wonder why people aren't running to the polls to vote for them.

Keep fighting for crumbs while the fat cats dine well. They thank you for it.

[alarimer]

73. It's a piece of shit bill

It will actually make things WORSE than they are now. Why should we support this shit? It is a corporate giveaway, nothing more.

Fuck Democratic lockstep bullshit.

[Oregone]

46. You're foolish if you believe insurance companies don't want mandated & subsidized reform

[Sebastian Doyle]

72. Anybody notice that the Cheerleader takeover of GD has begun?

GDP wasn't enough for them apparently. They're trying to crush any form of dissent here too.

[Individualist]

76. It's impossible not to notice

They're swarming today.

[AllentownJake]

80. Really isn't a take over

More like a migration because GDP is becoming a dust ball and an echo chamber.

[Sebastian Doyle]

83. Yeah that was evident eariler in the week

When a thread full of cut and paste spam which made absolutely No Sense got 300 recommends from the phantom DLC basement accounts. :puke:

[AllentownJake]

87. Meh

I'm still in the positive rec territory. I'm not looking to be on the front page, just want an outlet where people can discuss or vent their approval/disapproval.

Must say though, I have really gotten no you are wrong because...mostly personal attacks.

[Go2Peace]

151. There are a lot of cheerleaders adding accounts and trying to shift discussion on DU in recent month

(months). I think it is a coordinated effort. DU is a primary place that progressives go and I think it is being targeted.

A hundred loyalists could have a pretty large affect if they stay on message on a site like this.

It is just a shame though, because it would be far better for us to really solve problems, than to try and change perceptions.

[pattmarty]

219. You again? Take a couple more hits off the pipe and we'll see ya later.

[emulatorloo]

7. See my post 12 above

[AllentownJake]

13. actually they are pretty onerous

thanks to Bill Clinton.

[emulatorloo]

22. and yet people still receive assistance if they need it. n/t

[AllentownJake]

25. Some of the time nt

[Hello_Kitty]

138. Right. That's why thousands of people are living in their cars and tents right now. eom

[sabrina 1]

The only part of this bill the Insurance Companies don't like

is that the fines on the poor who cannot afford to pay for their private, shoddy product, are not high enough.

Mandated Insurance is a windfall for the Private Insurance Industry.

[closeupready]

109. $5,000 per year would send me and many others right into Chapter 7.

Sorry, Obama said that taxes on the middle class would not rise one penny. As I recall, GHWB did this, too. Oh, well, that's the way it goes, I guess.

[Political Heretic]

158. The Federal guidlines defining "afford it" are a joke - and least many of us screwed.

[KG]

4. steaming pile that does nothing to address the structural problems of health care.

[emulatorloo]

24. tell that to someone with a pre-existing condition or somebody who has had insurance cut off because

they were sick.

None of you who call this a "steaming pile" can answer this simple question:

IF the bill is so bad, WHY ARE THE INSURANCE COMPANIES TRYING SO DAMNED HARD TO KILL IT?

[debbierlus]

92. I'll answer your question...

In regard to your first comment, it is a good thing that people with preexisting conditions can't be denied insurance because they are sick. However, this bill doesn't prohibit the zillion other tactics the insurance companies use to deny care. For example, my mother just spent over a year fighting to get thousands of dollars of medical tests for my father paid for from her insurance company. The reason for denial - the tests couldn't be given on the same day. It was pure bs. It would actually be MORE expensive to have these test performed on seperate days for the insurance companies because it would mean paying for an additional office visit. The denial had no basis in anything other then being a made up rule to deny paying the claim. My aunt just spent two months fighting her insurance company to receive a second dose of chemotherapy for thyroid cancer. The reason for denial; not medically necessary, according to THEM. The bill does nothing to stop these abuses.

Even if they can't deny a person the right to buy a policy due to one set reason, it does not mean that actual health care can't be denied. It is utter insanity to mandate people to buy a insurance policy that can deny coverage when it is needed.

In regard to your question, the insurance companies WROTE this legislation. As did big pharm. And, other large corporate interests in the health care industry. They were the ones who were invited to the Senate Finance Hearing committee while the doctors and nurses who showed up protesting for ONE representative for single payer were arrested. The President met behind closed doors with big pharm and struck deals that basically allow them to charge mafia type prices for prescription drugs and extend patents to keep generics off the market. Here is a post link and comment from July regarding this issue:


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/debbierlus/28... (lots more at actual link)

(note the original link from yahoo is expired but I cut and pasted the story into the post)....

Here is the specific comment relevant to your claim from a health industry insider....

"There is a way out of it — a bipartisan compromise_ but so far the liberals have found that to be anathema," said Robert Laszewski, a health care industry consultant.

Laszewski is pessimistic about the prospects for overhaul legislation this year. But he thinks insurers in particular look like they're in a win-win situation.

"The health insurance industry is in a fantastic position," he said. Democratic liberals overreached and can't move a bill over the objections of their moderate and conservative colleagues.

"Democrats can't blame the industry if this goes down," Laszewski added. "So the health insurance industry is happy to let this thing take its course."

......The health insurance companies are fighting because they don't want even the paltry and toothless legislation that is in this bill to dictate how they rape the consumers of money. That is why you see ads against the bill. However, that does not change the fact that this legislation was crafted by them, for them, and largely benefits THEM. They only got 95% of their terms met, not the 100% they wanted, so they are protesting. That doesn't make it a good bill for the people.

[theFrankFactor]

226. Exactly!!!!!! But This is Like Rocket Science to the Party of Lowered Expectations

[spanone]

6. then you support doing nothing, that exactly what will happen if this is voted down.

[Xithras]

121. If the choice is between a step backwards and no step at all...

And forcing people, under the threat of prison, to spend thousands of dollars a year on healthcare they can't afford, in the middle of one of the greatest economic contractions in American history, is a step backwards.

No cost controls, no public option for average Americans, and nothing but a goddamned handout for the insurance companies. This isn't progress, it's a fucking joke.

[Kansas Wyatt]

182. I support withdrawing this shit and coming back next year.

And actually putting a bill through that the people want, with a Strong Public Option, without any hand-outs to the Insurance Industry.

65% - 70% of Americans want that. If the Democrats rammed it through before an election, the Democrats would take more seats when the election rolled around. The American People would get behind them even more, so other problems could be resolved quickly.

But oh no, let's play, 'monkey fucking a football' just because this is a 'foot in the door.'

[Fading Captain]

196. Use your head

Why support doing "something" instead of nothing?
Looks like something is going to cost the middle class and sour the country on health reform once and for all.

[JVS]

8. Aye, the bill sucks blue whale

[cry baby]

9. it's certainly your right to oppose this dem bill. nt

[berni_mccoy]

10. France has a mandate and the premiums are deducted from people's pay checks.

It's also not a single payer system. All your criticisms apply to be the best health care system in the world.

[AllentownJake]

19. You are honestly comparing this bill to the French system

:rofl:

I need to get a job selling things to gullible people.

[Mass]

40. No, no mandate in france. It is a single payer where healthcare is financed by payroll taxes and

income taxes. And it is a single payer system (one of the reasons prices are so much lower than here).

Not to say I oppose the bill. It could be a lot better than it is, we all know that, but something needs to be done. The status quo is unacceptable.

[Hello_Kitty]

139. It's also non-profit. eom

[berni_mccoy]

142. Nope. There are for profit providers as well as for-profit insurance in France.

[Raineyb]

166. For profit insurers do not cover basic health they offer supplementals

No company that offers basic health care is allowed to be for profit.

You are absolutely wrong on that.

[emilyg]

15. k/r

[DainBramaged]

16. Hmmmm, it's called compromise in conference committee

my bet is the provision never makes it into the bill, so you can tamp down your angst.

[emulatorloo]

32. interesting point n/t

[AllentownJake]

36. The Senate is more pro-mandates than the House

But that is wishful thinking.

[dsc]

75. that is a bet I will gladly take

the mandate is the one and only part of the bill that no one in Washington is complaining about.

[anonymous171]

18. It's designed to fail. The GOP will be running on this for years

[Go2Peace]

153. That has been my point. At the least we should "repackage" and re-brand. This could set us up

and really hurt Health care in the long run, because it WILL NOT deliver on the promise it was brought in on.

[Nikki Stone1]

21. Agreed. I hope mandates will be found unconstitutional.

,,

[kelly1mm]

26. I also cannot support this bill. Too many compromises. I know

that it failing to pass will be a political hit on the President but I can't, in good conscious, support it for that reason alone.

[emulatorloo]

30. The Insurance companies hate it. So there must be something good in it.

[anonymous171]

34. Hint: Any attempt to reform the system will be met with heavy resistance by the PTB

[kelly1mm]

53. There is in fact some good in the bill - no preexisting condition

exclusion for one. I certainly would support that as a stand alone bill. However, I am not prepared to take the rest of the bill just for limited good things in the bill. Would you support a bill that outlawed abortion if it also banned corporate donations to political campaigns? There would be something good in such a bill as well.

[Go2Peace]

154. That's a lie. They are not fighting hard right now and where they are it is

to make sure that a true public option does not reappear.

[stray cat]

29. So you clearly prefer the status quo to the bill?

that seems to be the choice - no bill - then no change in discriminating against pre-existing conditions and no pools for small businesses and ok to drop sick people.

[tridim]

37. Allentown jake prefers the GOP plan. No healthcare reform for anyone, ever..

Keep sending your increased premiums to the insurance companies, don't get sick, and die quickly.

[AllentownJake]

39. Yes because this bill is going to stop insurance premiums from flowing

to the Insurance industry :rofl:

I think I have a new term...democratic tea baggers...people who scream illogical nonsensical things without articulating a real point of view.

[tridim]

42. I'm not the one supporting the insurance industry.

That would be you.

I'm supporting the Democratic HCR bill.

[AllentownJake]

43. I'm not supporting the Insurance Industry either

However, you'd like to use your George W. Bush for us or against us logic.

[C_Lawyer09]

111. In Fairness

There have been alternatives put forth by some Republicans. Why put words into Allentown Jakes mouth, he didn't say he prefers what you outlined.

[akwapez]

33. I agree, the mandate has to go

However, if this bill fails, then what? HCR fails completely?
My hope is that this bill passes but the mandate is not in the final bill Obama signs.

[Hutzpa]

35. Of course you don't

it will be surprising to see you support anything this President does.

[AllentownJake]

38. Again

Broad Brush statements and accusations instead of actually articulating a clear point.

[Hutzpa]

48. You speak of broad brush when

it is you making the broad brush statement.

Maybe you're in favor of the STUPAK bill.

[AllentownJake]

51. Yes because I object to insurance mandates

I'm obviously a supporter of that.

[Hutzpa]

57. Do you know what the STUPAK bill is?

:shrug:

[MaineDem]

58. Obviously not. n/t

[AllentownJake]

60. Sorry don't follow the minutia of every thing going on

Just looked it up...I'll have to brush up on my politicians from Michigan.

Now seriously, flame me in 5 hours.

Kisses.

[Hutzpa]

67. As you've rightly admited

you don't follow whats going on, but you're just on this forum
to post flamebait after flamebait....right(?)

[notesdev]

64. I second that motion -nt

[grantcart]

65. You are 100% wrong on the mandates.

All systems that eliminate discrimination or rate differentiation based on preexisting conditions, by definition, must have mandated participation.


Simply put if you don't have mandates, and don't allow the provider to decide who to accept or allow them to charge more, people will simply not buy any health insurance until they need it. They will then drop it afterwards.


This is true whether you have a single payer system, a private system, or a hybrid system with a public option.


Without a mandate you will be creating "regulatory adverse selection" and the system will collapse - be it public or private.


It is discussed in more detail here


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/229


I know of no economist of any ideological stripe that argues that "regulatory adverse selection" this large would not create a fatal blow to any system - again public or private.

[Hello_Kitty]

86. Dude, you don't need to explain how insurance works to us.

Really. We get it. What we're objecting to is being forced by law to enter into a contract with a private corporation that is not accountable to us.

[AllentownJake]

89. +10,000

Couldn't have articulated that better!

[dana_b]

96. that's right!

being mandated to buy insurance just or "being" is b.s.

[bvar22]

143. Nail on the Head!

"What we're objecting to is being forced by law to enter into a contract with a private corporation that is not accountable to us."

:patriot:

[BeHereNow]

164. +1,000,000 n/t

bhn

[woo me with science]

217. Thank you. nt

[woo me with science]

222. and kicking. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

236. Totally!

And he maybe should have given that lecture to candidate Obama, who ran stridently opposed to the mandates Clinton supported. Where was he then? When Obama was so simple minded?

[Prism]

66. You're not for further burdening a crushed working class?

How dare you!

No, but seriously, I feel like I missed the collective meltdown of the Democratic Party where putting devastating financial burdens on the middle and working classes in the middle of the most serious economic downturn in 70 years is now seen as a good thing.

I cannot think of a more naked example of raw political power trumping the interests of the American people.

And you know the worst part? In five to ten years, as families buckle under these mandates, as the rot in the health system becomes more apparent, all these sycophants and power-worshippers will be bouncing around message boards much like this one explaining how it's all the Republicans' fault. They will refuse to recognize their own role in further eroding the working and middle classes and contributing trillions of future dollars to corporations. They'll insist to the very last that they are better people because they give a damn about the downtrodden, without stopping for one instant to reflect on how their devotion to party and a charismatic figure contributed to the devastation this new system will cause.

Who said only Republicans marched in mindless lockstep behind their leaders?

[Hello_Kitty]

88. [phone]

This is nothing but a transfer of what little wealth the middle and working classes have left to the coffers of the ultra-rich.

[leftstreet]

237. [phone]

[Nite Owl]

74. Not only is this bill

bad it's only going to get worse by the time they finish with it in the Senate and then reconciliation.
I resent that our tax money will be going to corporate CEO care.

That this is the best they can do says an awful lot about the democratic party.

[debbierlus]

77. I don't support it either. The dems sold us out

BIG TIME!

The whole thing has been one sorry ass song and dance to keep the insurance companies and big pharm profiteering off our misery.

[HughMoran]

84. Really Debbie!?

Now there's a surprise!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Go2Peace]

156. HughMoran, you are Stalking Debbie across boards.. cut it out!

I thought you were going to put her on your ignore list. That would be a more appropriate way to deal with your disagreement since you can't seem to keep from getting personal.

[Mithreal]

175. self-delete

Moran walked it back a little later on in discussion, but would be nice if mods would treat stalking like it is against the rules.

[Individualist]

79. This bill is a DLC wet dream,

a gift to the insurance companies. :puke:

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AllentownJake]

85. LOL

I didn't know posting a thread on DU was rage...I also baked some brownies today and went out to a barn with a candidate to scope out the plan for his kick-off next week.

But, I guess I'm walking around with a whole lot of rage.

Seems to me others on here just don't like anything that questions their world view.

[HughMoran]

90. Well, it's more of a long-time pattern that we get used to

There are very few posters who loudly and frequently post vehement objections to a plan that the majority of Americans would LOVE to have. This is more than I was expecting when we started this and especially when the mood soured in September. I never expected a perfect bill after 60 years of trying, but this is a very good bill. I'm sorry it's not everything you wanted.

[AllentownJake]

91. I actually spend 95% of my post bitching about

Wall Street and Tim Geithner...

[HughMoran]

94. Yeah, I know

I disagree with you often, but I always read what you have to say. Perhaps I'm a little hard on you at times - but that's my style :hug:

[AllentownJake]

95. You are one of the good posters on here

Which is why I was surprised with the statement...you normally debate. Lets get this disaster over so the party can spend some time building for 2010 :hug:

[HughMoran]

97. My fault - I conflated you with a couple of other posters from earlier today

I'm kind of fired up today so I overreacted to your post. I am actually somewhat excited in the belly thinking about this bill passing - perfect or otherwise - it's a MAJOR milestone IMO.

[AllentownJake]

99. I don't think the provision I don't like is going to survive

the court....and I can't believe that some idiot put a prison sentence for non-compliance in the bill (I can see the ads and the mail next year)....get this over with and move-on....it has been killing us for 7 months.

[HughMoran]

100. Jail is a ridiculous outcome for not carrying insurance

I hope the "affordability" index is in line with what people feel they can afford. I do know that reform can't and won't work without having everybody buy into it (literally). I really want this to succeed - it's clear when reading the bill that a lot of thought went into it.

[AllentownJake]

102. I see it as a fresh coat of paint over a rotting wall

but we are free to disagree.

[HughMoran]

103. I hope you're being overly pessimistic

I also hope that it can be modified as needed in the future to fix areas that were "miscalculated". I think part of the long phase-in period is to allow time for adjustments & for people to adapt to the changes (including, unfortunately, the criminal enterprises known as 'insurance companies'.

[Hello_Kitty]

104. But "everybody" isn't buying into it if undocumented immigrants aren't covered.

That's millions of people right there. And a giant hole in the "necessity of mandates" argument. "OMGZ!!1! IT WILL NEVER WORK UNLESS EVERYONE IS FORCED INTO IT!!1!ELEVENTY" on the one hand but "Oh but we can exclude this (rather large) group over here." It's not like immigrants ever need health care or anything. :sarcasm:

[HughMoran]

105. Blame the fuckpublicans and Blue Meanie Democrats for that

I'm sure Dems would have preferred to use common sense and cover illegals (and have them contribute as well), but Republican racist ignoramus bigots can't allow anything common sense to happen (I am including Blue Dogs as Republicans.)

[Hello_Kitty]

106. And at the end of the day it means that everyone is not covered. eom

[HughMoran]

107. Clearly that's not technically possible at this time

We'll get there - this is just the beginning.

[Hello_Kitty]

117. So you're admitting that EVERYONE doesn't have to be covered.

Thanks! :hi:

[HughMoran]

119. I wasn't being literal when I previously used the word "everybody"

When I stated that everybody needed to contribute, I was justifying mandates.

I think you know that. I understand the point you are making and I actually agree with you that it's a problem that needs to be resolved in the future.

[Hello_Kitty]

122. Either everybody means everybody or it doesn't.

Currently, 85% of Americans have insurance coverage. That's close to everybody. Why doesn't it seem to be working very well for a lot of people?

[HughMoran]

123. Never mind

You're just looking to start an argument - have fun...

[Hello_Kitty]

127. Um, I thought that's why DU was here. eom

[ProSense]

114. Undocumented immigrants aren't covered anywhere.

Kucinich's bill included a provision about path to legal status (which is the whole idea behind immigration reform), but until then, they're not covered. Currently, there is emergency Medicaid.

Which country provides coverage for undocumented immigrants?

[Hello_Kitty]

116. So I guess you're admitting that EVERYONE doesn't have to be covered for a health plan to work.

Thanks. :)

[ProSense]

118. No, you need to deal with reality. America is behind every other industrialized country and

none of them cover undocumented immigrants. We're on the verge of significantly transforming health care, and expecting it to suddenly become the best in the world is completely unrealistic.

[Hello_Kitty]

124. And again, you're acknowledging that EVERYONE doesn't need to be in the plan.

And yet, the mandate seems to be the only thing about the plan that is non-negotiable. Well, except for undocumented immigrants, that is.

[ProSense]

130. Again, you're ignoring reality. n/t

[harmonicon]

188. you are the one ignoring reality - see my response above

Did you just assume this position that you're stating as fact, or are you purposefully lying and hoping that no one would catch it? The US is behind first world countries in almost every area, but especially in healthcare. Maybe we should take a page from those countries and see how it works, because what we're doing now sure as hell isn't working.

[harmonicon]

185. The UK for one - probably many others

If you go into a UK hospital, you get treated, no questions asked. When I signed up with the local doctors' office (everyone on the NHS is supposed to be registered with their closest GP) I think they asked for my address and phone number on the paperwork I had to fill out.... definitely didn't ask to see my visa.

[ChiciB1]

93. I'm Just Chiming In To Support You AllentownJake... n/t

[Starry Messenger]

108. Wow the martyred moderates are out in force today

I had no idea that Democrats wanted another shit sandwich so soon after the Bush years. I guess some people got to liking the taste as long as someone else is making it.

[ProSense]

110. It figures, more nonsensical crap

The RW already tried the nonsensical unconstitutional argument

History is being made despite the silliness.

Facts.

[AllentownJake]

112. There you are

:hi:

How you doing tonight?

[bluestateguy]

113. Then you and Michelle Bachman and Virginia Foxx can meet together to plot strategy

Since you are all favoring the same outcome--defeat of the bill.

[AllentownJake]

115. Dick Cheney and Barack Obama want more troops in Afganistan

But nice straw man.

[mike_c]

120. I agree-- dems have pulled a classic bait and switch....

I sincerely believe that most people who support this turkey think they're supporting something completely different.

[paulk]

125. while I agree with you that the bill is a piece of crap,

I think it would be an even bigger "disaster politically" to end up with nothing. To be defeated with a bad bill does not mean that a better bill will come out of it - it means the opposite, imo. If we lose this round the Democrats will not have the courage to approach healthcare reform for another generation.

I'd been sitting on the fence, but I've finally decided to support the bill. It's a foot in the door, and that, perhaps, is the best we can expect at this time. If it fails to work, then it fails to work, and we can move on - but at least it's an acknowledgment that the status quo is not acceptable.

[AllentownJake]

131. I'm not voting today

I voted in November. I'm not making any phone calls for this bill either.

I don't make calls to support shit.

[mdmc]

128. It has Obama's support

I guess it was the best he could do..

[Nikki Stone1]

129. It has his support but it wasn't the best they could have done.

And I think this is the new framework for Medicare. It will be transferred over to this system before GenX retires.

[mdmc]

133. This is the new framework for medicare..no doubt in my mind..

I support single payer but will take what Obama can get us..

[Nikki Stone1]

141. It's a shift in philosophy towards the North American Union

The NAFTA board (3 non-elected people) can override our elected officials.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

132. I can't wait until this passes so that I can watch the all or nothing crowd and the

teabagging pukes stroke out over it. It's a two-fer...

:hi:

[AllentownJake]

134. I'll shrug my shoulders and eat a brownie

than I'll probably smoke a cigarette and drink a beer and think about how I can help my friend become a state rep.

:shrug:

[Go2Peace]

159. I guess for some of us it is not a spectator sport.

And your comparison is not accurate. Most of those here who are concerned want **stronger** measures and less insurance industry involvement.

sigh.. it would be so nice if even amongst liberals people could keep from trying to pidgeon others into pre-conceived labels.

And if you read through the thread most of the personal name calling is by the proponents. So if folks are going to tag a "comparison" label, which side is acting more like "Teabaggers" anyway?

[highplainsdem]

137. K&R. I agree completely.

[Gravel Democrat]

140. When asked by a little known news org where the constitution...

...Authorizes Congress to order Americans to buy Health Insurance, Pelosi Says: 'Are You Serious?'

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/55971

"Pelosi's press secretary later responded to written follow-up questions from CNSNews.com by emailing CNSNews.com a press release on the “Constitutionality of Health Insurance Reform,” that argues that Congress derives the authority to mandate that people purchase health insurance from its constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce..."

Whoa! The basis of the "Drug War!

Note that in the last 6 months of debate, it took CNS News (whatever that is i've never heard of them before) to ask one of the Most Important Questions regarding this entire "Insurance Reform". Not ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN,, MSNBC, or FOX.

This illustrates the complete breakdown of the Fourth Estate.

And I'm Serious.

“You can put this on the record,” said Elshami (Pelosis spokestool). “That is not a serious question. That is not a serious question.”

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."
--Thomas Jefferson

"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
--James Madison

Of course the Constitution was meant to be Amended, see the 18th for example!

And if it's good enough for booze, well then surely something as important as "Health Insurance Reform" would qualify.

[ProSense]

145. "a little known news org" CNS News?

CNS News is wingnut central.

[CoffeeCat]

146. Now, the Repubs can say--See! Healthcare reform is EVIL!!

I knew they would do this. Pass a sucky, horrible bill that makes the healthcare situation worse--and
does nothing to address the fact that for-profit companies control our healthcare system.

FUDGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is the WORST CASE SCENARIO for healthcare reform---come to life, in full technicolor.

We have a Dem President and a majority in the House and Senate--and that is the nonsense we get.

OUTRAGEOUS.

[ZombieHorde]

149. "Fining or jailing working Americans is not the answer to the Health Insurance issue."

I am saddened this sentence needs to said.

[Grassy Knoll]

150. WOW I have never seen so many deletes , " MY POINT" no "MY POINT " HA

[Laelth]

152. Hear, hear. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[nc4bo]

160. If I could express how I really feel inside, I'd be put in prison.

It's a game, we're the toys. I resent these mofo'ers for thinking I'm/we're stupid. I am not stupid, neither are any of you.

K&R.

[dflprincess]

165. And now it has passed and we're going to have to watch Pelosi and the other

corporate whores congratulating themselves and acting like they actually did something for us When all they did was make sure their campaign donors are safe.

The only thing historic about this "reform" is that so many of them didn't even try to pretend they haven't been bought - but at least they were honest.

[jgraz]

168. I'd like to avoid a tombstone this evening, so I'll just say K&R.

:banghead:

[waiting for hope]

169. K&R

"mandating Americans to purchase a product from the private market is unconstitutional and unprecedented."

That's criminal - and it only benefits the Insurance industry, not the individual who couldn't afford it before.

[bertman]

171. Thank you, Jake. I agree wholeheartedly.

What's almost funny--if it weren't so pitiful, is all the folks who are saying that if we don't get THIS healthcare reform bill passed RIGHT NOW, the Democrats will lose in 2010. Well, here's a newsflash. They've ALREADY lost me.

I will not support the DLC, DNC, or DCCC with my money or my efforts. Period.

There are many Democratic candidates and currently-serving elected officials whom I will support. But there are a lot of them who I will work HARD to beat.

Anyone who is proud of what the Democratic party has done in this endeavour, has not been paying attention.

[juno jones]

174. K&R! n/t

[yodoobo]

178. They why don't you go to Free Republic and discuss it there

You'll find plenty who agree with you there.

[AllentownJake]

179. Sure and I'm sure you'd find plenty looking for escalation on the war in Afghanistan there

as well.....however I'm against that.

See this is called a straw man bullshit argument and false moral equivalency.

[yodoobo]

181. You cannot escape the fact that you now agree with your enemy

You have joined forces with the people that hate you most.

Just something to think about.


This kind of support, only empowers our enemies.

[AllentownJake]

183. You are with us or against us

[yodoobo]

187. Now you are posting Bush propaganda?

Well you've made yourself quite clear.

[AllentownJake]

191. No I'm comparing your statement

to Bush. See I'm saying that your false reasoning is just as offensive as Chimpy.

[sellitman]

214. You don't understand

Our enemies have won. This bill has No Public Option.

This bill is a sham.

[brentspeak]

220. Why don't you take a trip over to K-Street, and party it up in celebration over there?

Why is the OP's criticism of the bill any less valid simply because Freepers don't like the bill for entirely different reasons?

[TheWebHead]

184. absolutely correct

this mandate is a disaster. It should have been a tax credit if you purchase rather than a penalty if you don't. This will never make it past the senate, but will likely be a huge issue for Democrats next fall in the house who voted for it.

[AllentownJake]

186. That is funny

because that is what I supported in the primary...when I voted for Senator Obama.

[rtassi]

190. Agreed! with a rec n/t

[autorank]

192. Preach brother!

I won't repeat myself Special Health Reform Series

[dgibby]

194. Thanks, ATJ

I agree.

K&R

[earth mom]

197. Word. Yet people here on DU can't see the major ripoff and massive giveaway this shitty "reform" is!

:wow:

[tomm2thumbs]

200. all the nay sayers will be the ones signing up - including Repubs

Good luck with dropping a turd in the punch bowl - the party has moved down the street already

[ProSense]

202. "it should fail." It passed with the support of these people

Barbara Lee Releases Statement On Passage of Health Care for America Act

Washington D.C. – Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA) released the following statement today after the House of Representatives approved H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act:

“Today’s historic vote is one step forward in our quest to provide health care to all Americans.

“While there is still much work to do, I applaud President Obama, Democratic Leadership and the Chairmen of the Tri-Committees for their efforts to bring us to this point.

“I also want to thank in the Tri-Caucus, Progressives Caucus and particularly the 42 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. Together we have led the fight for a strong public option, which is included in the health care bill that the House approved today.

“When others were pronouncing health reform dying—and the public option dead and buried—we kept on fighting! And we will keep fighting until a final health care bill is on the president’s desk that includes not only a strong public option, but provisions to achieve health equity, eliminate health disparities and to limit the rate of increase for those with private plans.

“We have and will continue to champion issues such as the need for support for patients with end stage renal disease, for children’s mental health, and dental care, workforce pipeline issues, and expansion of community health centers.

“These provisions and others attack the many causes of health disparities, and we fought to get them in. Under the leadership of Congresswoman Donna M. Christensen, we have also championed expansion of the Office of Minority Health because we need a comprehensive way to address minority health across agencies.

“Finally, because we know that 85 percent of Americans are in private insurance, under the leadership of Rep. Donna Edwards, we fought to have included cost containment provisions to keep premiums reasonable. We know that the American people want and deserve affordable health care. We also know that this bill is cost effective for our country, and for American families watching their budgets.

“This was a historic vote, but we must keep up the fight until we have a final bill on the president’s desk. Health care should not just be a privilege for a few; it should and must be a basic human right in the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world.”

CONGRESSMAN GRAYSON PROUDLY SUPPORTS AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE FOR AMERICA ACT

November 7, 2009 9:18 PM (Washington, DC) – Congressman Alan Grayson voted tonight in favor of the Affordable Health Care for America Act. The bill (H.R. 3962) will deliver life, health, and peace of mind to the tens of millions of people in the United States who do not have health insurance.

Congressman Grayson said, “I promised from the start to vote for any bill that saves money and saves lives. This bill does both. This bill will help save the lives of the nearly 45,000 Americans who die every year because they do not have health insurance,” Congressman Grayson said.

Congressman Grayson never wavered in his support of health care reform. Leading up to the vote, he personally spoke with hundreds of constituents, to listen to their concerns and answer their questions. Since August, he has held three health care town halls, a health care telephone town hall meeting, and dozens of other open meetings; consulted with the members of his Health Care Advisory Board; and considered the overwhelming number of calls and emails from constituents.

Congressman Grayson said, “A lot of people say they love America. To them I say, ‘it’s not enough to love what’s in America. You cannot just love the Appalachian Mountains, the Mohave Desert, or the Gulf Coast. You need to love Americans as well. And loving people means taking care of them, sheltering the homeless, feeding the hungry, and healing the sick.’”

The Affordable Health Care for America Act received broad support from hundreds of important and influential organizations including the AARP, American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, U.S. Women’s Chamber of Commerce, and Voto Latino.

Conyers: House Health Care Bill Will Save Lives While Fight for Single Payer Continues

WASHINGTON D.C. — Congressman John Conyers, Jr (D-MI) issued the following statement today applauding the passage of H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act.

“Today, I joined my Democratic colleagues in support of the Affordable Healthcare for America Act. While the bill is far from perfect, I supported it because it will expand access to health insurance to 96 percent of Americans, end discrimination based on pre-existing conditions, help our seniors by closing the prescription drug benefit donut hole, and increase competition and choice with a public insurance option.”

In the near term, these reforms will improve and save American lives while we continue to fight for single payer health care at the state and national levels. I will vote for this bill because the cost of inaction is too high. Each year, 44,000 people die because they do not have access to insurance. Without reform, this number will rise, Americans will be at greater risk of losing their coverage, and our business community will continue to fall behind international competitors as their future profits are drained by burdensome health care costs.

Grijalva explained a couple of the highlights he says are in the bill. He told us there's no pre-existing condition denial, meaning if a person has a pre-existing condition they can't be denied services. He also said this bill will extend benefits to millions of American's who don't otherwise have an opportunity to receive health care coverage.

Representative Grijalva said, "It's not as strong as many of us wanted it, but it does provide for private insurances a competitive competition that will keep costs lower and make some of the premiums we see and some of the costs that we see from private insurance carriers are going to have to reduce their costs to compete with this public option."

link

[JCMach1]

203. Did we not essentialy get the Dole bill of 1993...?

With a little window-dressing...

This is not change we can believe in... it's change we could have had with the Republican bill of 1993-4...

[Vidar]

204. K&R

[winyanstaz]

205. I agree...

It also leaves out women's health care in regards to abortion. A slap in the face to all women everywhere. Once again the religious right is writing the laws.
With families struggling so hard already..this will push many over the edge and distroy lives.

[DemBones DemBones]

206. I do not support it, either, for

the reasons you cited, plus I think insurers will raise premiums bigtime, and they are already too high.

[TorchTheWitch]

208. I totally agree - this shit "reform" will destroy me financially

and I still won't have healthcare.

[freddie mertz]

210. K & R. It was bad enough before the atrocious abortion amendment

It is an obscenity as it stands now.

Kill the bill.

[Echo In Light]

213. "Fining or jailing working Americans is not the answer to the Health Insurance issue"

Uniquely American, isn't it?

Rec!

[IsItJustMe]

215. I have a serious problem with this mandate. People try to compare it to car insurance. The fact of

the matter is that a person does not have to own a car or drive for that matter. What this bill does is create a situation in this country whereby it costs you just to be alive and breathe.

Something bad wrong with that.

[sellitman]

216. This bill is a sham.

Those applauding it are either blind, ignorant of what it has inside of it or not paying attention.

No public option and a boon to Insurance Companies isn't change.

[Fire1]

221. We know. n/t

[theFrankFactor]

223. A Piece of Shit Delivered By Industy Owner Opeators of Dem Congressional Heads

C'mon! This is what "our party" did with majorities in both houses and the "Hope & Change" President. Next he'll be calling himself a "uniter not a divider"!

[theFrankFactor]

224. Agreed and I Support You AJ

[Honeycombe8]

225. The fed. will subsidize payments for the health ins. But yes, all Americans need

health care and/or health ins. coverage, so that the rest of us don't end up paying for their "emergency" medical bills.

I don't want a mandate, either. Who does? I wish they hadn't done it THAT way. But in the end, it doesn't affect most Americans, since we either have insurance (poor though the coverage may be sometimes) through our employers, or we purchase it individually.

For the working poor, their children will be covered through SCHIP, so those parents will not have to worry about purchasing policies for them (I hope). Only for themselves. And they need coverage, in order to get medicine for diabetes or high blood pressure or whatever, so they don't end up in emergency care costing the taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars (this happened to my sister).

In the case of people like my sister, who was unemployed without a penny to her name, I suppose the government would have subsidized her health ins. totally, since she was in the poverty category. Medicaid? Well, she would've qualified for that (and did), but there weren't any doctors around who would see Medicaid patients. So she ended up in a charity hospital for weeks for complications arising from diabetes (she didn't know she had diabetes). That cost the taxpayer tens of thousands of dollars, at least. Later, she had a stroke. So she is in an institution now, costing the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. IF she'd had regular healthcare, all that could've been avoided, maybe.

It's complicated. I don't know the best solution, really. Single payer, of course, but since that won't happen, I don't know the best solution after that. I do know that we have to do SOMETHING, or the problem will get increasingly worse every year. Doing nothing is not an option.

[emald]

227. This bill sounds good,

even the phrase of "Public Option" is in there. Ohhh, let's all come all over ourselves. Then we get the bill. One third of my income is not free to line the pocket of an insurance company. Guess it's jail for me. Jesus, where has my country gone? Only two percent covered, and they will be charged up the ass, you can count on that, and we call it some sort of help for those who need health care? Insurance is not health care. Period.
I want to see health care. Until that occurs the rest of this is BS corporate enrichment.
Jail time? For not paying for insurance? Really? I'm just shaking my head. Unreal.
All PRAISE the Democrats, for what they have wrought. corporate fools.

[scentopine]

228. Democrats continue to slit their own throats...

this is the next "free market" experiment that will end in disaster. How much more can the middle class continue to give to the rich? We'll find out soon enough.

Jesus- is there anyone in America left who represents Working class people? Once again I will be burdened with more taxes to fund the lifestyles of the rich and famous.