How To Get Killed On A Bicycle

[Fumesucker]

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/11/how-to-get-killed-on-a-bike.php?dtc=th_rss_cars?dcitc=TH_sbr_cars



I always thought I was most likely to get killed by a "right hook", where a car blithely turns the corner without looking and the cyclist goes under the wheels. I lost a rowing buddy that way. Or the "door prize" where a driver opens a car door without looking to see if anyone is coming up beside them. But a new study of accidents in Fort Collins, Colorado, covered by Cyclelicious, tells a very different story.

In fact, what they call a "broadside" is far more common. They are defined as " any crash when a bicyclist hits or is hit by a car on a perpendicular road." Yokota at Cyclelicious clarifies it as "That's when a motorist goes straight through an intersection even when there's a bike right in front of him". 60.5% of the accidents were caused that way, compared to only 13% by the right hook.

But what is more disturbing, well over half of the broadsides happened with the cyclist riding against traffic. As Cyclelicious points out, you can imagine what all the drivers are saying in the comments in the Coloradoan.





And while only 8.5% of the accidents are "sideswipes" or "hit from behind", all the fatalities but one came from this- drivers just not looking where they are going and ploughing into the rear of cyclists. Although the report defines this as "Accidents where a bicyclist hits or is hit by a vehicle traveling in the same direction or opposite direction as the bicyclist or car is changing lanes, passing or weaving." and notwithstanding the image, only 4 out of 30 cyclists were travelling against traffic.

More at the link..

[seemunkee]

1. Thanks

I'll probably go out riding tomorrow. Good stuff to know.

[bertman]

177. here's another good thing to know: a bicycle's profile is very narrow. Many cars and

trucks have blind spots where the windshield meets the front door posts. It is very easy to miss seeing a bicyclist in the split second that one glances to check for oncoming traffic or pedestrians. Hell, I've even missed seeing full-sized cars if the angle and the light were just right (or just wrong, as the case might be).

I really appreciate the riders who wear yellow or orange because they stand out against the background and the other vehicles. Also appreciate the ones who use flashing head and tail lights at night.

Great post, fumesucker. You may have saved a life or two.

Rec.

[cliffordu]

2. I like to chase down the people who do these things and ask them if they are

cowards as well as bullies or just clueless.

Works every time.

[taterguy]

4. They're in vehicle that weighs a few thousand pounds. You're on a bike. What could go wrong?

YMMV of course.

[cliffordu]

5. I gets REAL close to the window so's they can't easily get me....

So far I've been Ok...Maybe one day not...such is living in the land of the predator.

[taterguy]

6. I just smile at the assholes. It confuses them.

[FightingIrish]

7. I've done that twice

Once the driver has a six pack beside him on the front seat and a beer can in his hand. I gave the sheriff a heads up. Another clown explained that he ran me off the road because he was looking at the cows.

[FightingIrish]

3. Most of my close calls and my one actual impact

have been drivers puling out of driveways or from curbside parking spaces. I've seen the case in he third diagram way too often and usually the driver was looking right at me like I wasn't supposed to be there.

[Fumesucker]

8. Ride in such a manner that if you were totally invisible you wouldn't get hit anyway..

Be prepared to take evasive maneuvers on instantaneous notice, always assume that drivers are going to do the absolute stupidest thing they could possibly do.

Part of the problem in the US, a big part, is the "fog mirror, get license" test we have in most (all?) states.

[Pab Sungenis]

9. It's more important that the car see the bicyclist than the bicyclist see the car.

When you're going the wrong way down a street, the car has a lot less time to react.

[Pab Sungenis]

14. Here, copying from an old blog entry of mine:

http://cnx.com/?p=389

RIDE WITH THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC, NOT AGAINST IT!

Not only is it the law in the State of New Jersey, and most other states, too, but there are some basic, sensible reasons for doing this.

* I am bigger than you.
* I am faster than you.
* I will suffer a lot less damage than you in our collision.

Thus it is infinitely more important that I see you than you see me!

If you are riding against the flow of traffic, you will be able to see the cars coming towards you, but you will be cutting down on both your own and the driver’s reaction times, believe it or not, which makes it more likely that a car will hit you before you can swerve out of its path.

Let me explain this somewhat scientifically. Here you are:



…and here I am:



(In the interests of verisimilitude, the surly guy hanging on to the back quarter panel may not be riding along with me all the time.)

Now, let’s say you come turning our of a driveway, right into my line of traffic, going five miles an hour (not unreasonable with some of the people I’ve seen on bikes). I’m proceeding at 25 miles an hour. You are 50 feet ahead of me.



Normally, if you were sitting still, this would give me a little over one and a quarter seconds to swerve and avoid you. However, your forward motion during that same time would carry you ten feet closer to me, shaving a quarter second off the time available to me. Any driving instructor will tell you that more than half of that will be eaten up by my eyes telling my brain you are there, and then my brain telling my foot to slam the brake or my hands to swerve.

Now, let’s pretend that you’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing, and travelling WITH the flow of traffic, and we’re going the same speeds.



With 50 feet between us, I have my second and a quarter. But, by the time I get to where you were, you’ll be an extra ten feet ahead of me. Thus, more reaction time, more margin for error.

It’s that simple. Riding with the flow keeps you alive. Riding against the flow, you’re taking a big risk. Keep yourself alive. Follow the law.

Thank you.

[Bucky]

10. Yeah, I took a broadside when I was 13. I was peddling up a sidewalk past a driveway...

... while the driver was pulling out of his driveway at a full clip. Crunched the hell out of my bike and I, thankfully, landed on top of the car's trunk with only a bad bruise where the handlebars hit my arm.

[Shagbark Hickory]

11. We need dedicated bike lanes. And I think I know just where to find the people to build them.

Wall street.

[Fumesucker]

12. I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter..

:evilgrin:

[Shagbark Hickory]

44. Thanks but I don't have a newsletter. Join my email list to find out when I come out with a newsletr

Oh shoot. I ain't got no email list neither.

('Cuz I'm a pothole.)

[L0oniX]

26. Like they would actually stay in those lanes or obey traffic signals like car drivers.

[elocs]

13. How to get killed on a bicycle: ride in traffic with cars and trucks.

Which is why in my city I legally ride on the sidewalk (except for a section of downtown where it is illegal and there is a lot of pedestrian traffic) whenever possible. My city is long and narrow and I have ridden on the sidewalk across town for 6 miles and only twice encountered any pedestrians (I can also encounter pedestrians on the rails to trails pathways).

My goal for staying safe while riding my bicycle is to avoid interaction with motor vehicles whenever possible whether it is riding on the sidewalk, or lightly traveled side streets that are marked as bikeways or on actual bike trails.

[AngryOldDem]

30. Or ride at night, dressed totally in black, with no reflectors on either you or your bike...

Came across one such genius the other night. I really don't know what people are thinking 99.9% of the time.

[elocs]

56. Funny, I saw one of those last night and he must have had a death wish.

Dark clothes and no reflectors on his bike. I only saw him because I saw his silhouette from a half block away.

Last summer I rode my bike across town in the dark (I have a headlight and a flashing tail light) and I was either on the sidewalk or on the sidestreets and in 6 miles from one end of the city to the other I only was on a street once when a car was there. It was a safe and nice ride on a beautiful night.

[lostnfound]

132. One of those on the road in front of me tonight. Scared the heck out of me.

I don't know if he was all in black, but there was nothing reflective about him and the road was dark so I barely saw him.

[lostnfound]

133. One of those on the road in front of me tonight. Scared the heck out of me.

I don't know if he was all in black, but there was nothing reflective about him and the road was dark so I barely saw him.

[NoUsername]

138. I've seen those on the bike paths and almost crashed into them more

than once on my way to work. I'm lit up like a friggin' Christmas tree when I commute in the dark and man, I hate it when I come across those types. We used to call them "Ninja cyclists" but decided that name was too cool and might only encourage that type of behavior so we coined the term "darkwads" for them instead. I think it's more fitting.

[bertman]

176. Good lord, it must be an epidemic. The same thing happened to me two nights ago.

[tonysam]

38. I stay off of sidewalks because drivers aren't looking for cyclists there

My dad always told me to give cyclists lots and lots of room, not to cut them off. It was sage advice.

[EndersDame]

64. I ride illegally on the side walk

we need more bike lanes! Also Drivers and cyclists who pay attention

[gtar100]

139. Visit Paris sometime.

Cars, trucks, bicycles, scooters, motorcycles, taxis, buses, and pedestrians. I think the only thing that holds it together is the one rule that apparently exists - don't hit anyone and don't get hit.

[Gormy Cuss]

167. Sidewalk riding is illegally on all but one road near me. On that road I use the sidewalk

because when the city goes to the trouble of encouraging bicyclists to ride on the sidewalk you just KNOW that riding on the road is a very bad idea.

I also make it a practice to dismount and act like a pedestrian at busy, complex intersections with pedestrian controls.

There are plenty of bike lanes around here and I think that drivers are more attuned to bicyclists on those roads than on the ones without them. I'd still rather be on the paved bike trails but they're not without hazardous because of the intersections. Oddly enough the small side street intersections are the most dangerous because drivers aren't pay attention on these low traffic roads.

[Ignis]

15. My own accident tally from 5 years of biking in SF:

3 x right hook
- 2 x SUV
- 1 x cargo van

3 x broadside
- 1 x SUV rolling through a stop sign
- 1 x car rolling through a stop sign
- 1 x mini-van lurching out of a blind alley into traffic

1 x door prize
- I'm very careful to avoid these, but hard to see right after you turn a corner

It's amazing I'm still so pretty after all the time I've spent sliding on the asphalt. B-)

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

16. Are you suggesting cyclists should follow the rules of the road?

Automobile Apartheid! How dare you sir!

A friend of mine had a cyclist come through their windshield about six years ago, asshole was riding on the wrong side of the road at dusk. According to the CHP the same moron had been hit two years earlier on the PCH doing the exact same thing and had successfully sued a driver who hit him once earlier!

A darwin award if there ever was one, but my friend is still fucked up from the accident years later.

[seabeyond]

17. i see at least one diagram where blane is on cyclist. riding against traffic. nt

[dysfunctional press]

97. in the first one- the cyclist is also in the wrong- passing on the right.

bicyclists are required to use the same rules of the road as car-drivers.

[seabeyond]

117. i thought so too. the only reasons i thought maybe not was cause positioned

ahead of the car and maybe acting like aprt of the lane.

[dysfunctional press]

122. i've encountered that same situation plenty of times in the city...

luckily, it never resulted in me flattening anyone. what happens is that the bike-rider zips along the right-hand side of the rode, totally oblivious to the idea that cars might turn right.
if the bicyclist in the picture were ahead of the car as pictured, he wouldn't be hit, as the car would have to slow to turn, and the bike, already ahead of the car would continue on, even farther ahead.

i lived on a one-way street, with a stop sign on the corner, at the intersection of another one-way street where i would make a right-hand turn just about anytime i left the house in the car. the biggest danger, and the thing you really had to be careful of- were the bicyclists that would pass on the right, and then blow thru the stop sign. for some reason, a lot of bicyclists don't seem to think that stop signs apply to them, too. :shrug:

[Telly Savalas]

119. We don't know that.

In the picture the bicycle is in front of the car. The bicycle may have just passed the car on the right or the bicycle may have been in front of the car the whole time. Granted such an accident is much more likely to happen in the former case, but there are enough inattentive dickholes on the road that the latter case can easily happen too.

[dysfunctional press]

120. if the bike were in front of the car the whole time, he wouldn't be hit.

he would be continuing on thru the intersection, while the car would be doing a right hand turn, and would also most likely have to slow down to turn, which would put the bike even farther ahead.

you're right about the inattentive dickhole part, tho- they just pedal along, listening to ipods & blowing thru stop signs, totally oblivious to cars or pedestrians. some of them need to realize that a stryofoam brain-bucket and a titanium ally frame don't make you indestructible- just a menace.

[gorfle]

18. Time to get flamed.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyway:

I don't care what the law says, bicycles don't belong on the streets with cars, and people who choose to do it are taking their lives in their hands.

There needs to be more sidewalks or bicycle lanes. Bikes don't belong on streets. It's dangerous for the riders, and they hinder the normal flow of motorized traffic.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

19. Dennis Leary put it best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHpoHFAPjY

[Ron Green]

49. I don't think I've ever seen a bigger asshole than that guy.

What a jerk.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

76. he doesn't deny it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzoPTtTfcrA&feature=related

[Odin2005]

20. Yes, because we all must worship on the altar of the almighty automobile!

:sarcasm:

Making driving a pain is a good thing, it encourages high-density development, less sprawl, and more mass transit use.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

23. Then move to Manhattan and leave the rest of us alone

I love California because I can have some fucking space.

[Odin2005]

27. Yeah, fuck the planet, I want my SPRAWL!!!

:puke:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

34. I will make an extra effort to recycle my inkjet cartridges

The type of communities you imagine would be unaffordable to most of the population since most adults don't wish to live like broke college students their entire lives.

[tabasco]

84. Hahahahahaha!

Self loathing fat slob.

[gorfle]

46. What gives anyone the right?

Where I live you see one bicycle on the road for perhaps every 1000 or more cars.

What gives so few people the right to inconvenience everyone else on the road?

Yes, I know it's the law, but I don't think it's right.

The roads are for transportation. Most of that transport is by motor vehicle. That's the reality.

[Ron Green]

51. Where you live is the past. Take a look at Portland, Oregon or Davis, CA.

That's the future, or it better be, if there's gonna be a future.

[gorfle]

66. The past?

In my future we use technology to satisfy our conveniences.

[Ron Green]

68. Nothing very technological about lots of distracted and dim-witted drivers

piloting big cars that use lots of resources.

[gorfle]

75. So...

Nothing very technological about lots of distracted and dim-witted drivers piloting big cars that use lots of resources.

So is the answer to go back to 18th century technology and pedal around on human-powered machines, or use technology to produce vehicles that give us the convenience we enjoy today while using renewable resources?

[Ron Green]

145. "Convenience we enjoy today" is part of the problem.

The individual conveyance that is operated by amateurs, takes up lots of space and uses massive amounts of resources is not a sustainable item, and also represents a society seriously out of balance.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

146. damn living in America sucks, I wish I could commute by hanging off the side of a train

Americans, like the people of most advanced countries have achieved a high standard of living by global standards for most citizens - this is NOT a bad thing.

[gorfle]

161. So balance it without compromise.

I am not one of those "back to the woods" people who think humanity is a scourge on the earth.

There is no reason to give up the convenience of individual conveyance.

There is no reason why such conveyance need use up massive amounts of resources.

There is no reason why such conveyance can't be sustainable.

There is no reason why such conveyance can't be available in a society in balance.

Some folks just want to "go back to the woods" and forget the convenience of technology. Most people, myself included, will never stand for that.

[Occulus]

148. If you ban everything but cars on the roads, you need to be prepared to make

driving a right, rather than a privilege. That means no more revocations of licenses for any particular offense, because there would be no licenses.

Because driving, under your scenario, would have to be a right and not a privilege, mandatory auto insurance for drivers would also have to be a thing of the past.

Why does driving have to a be a right, rather than a privilege, for your scenario to come true?

Because not everyone drives everywhere, but roads are paid for by everyone. Therefore, everyone driving a legal vehicle may use the roads, and in many cases pedestrians may as well. Now, if you want to talk about a very cheap bicycle license as a local ordinance, I might listen. Educated cyclists are living cyclists.

[gorfle]

163. Whatever.

Because not everyone drives everywhere, but roads are paid for by everyone.

Roads are paid for by everyone, because nearly everyone drives everywhere. The last person I knew who never drove died 15 years ago.

[Xithras]

22. I agree, bikes and cars don't belong on the same roads.

So I say we take about 25% of the roads, kick the cars off of them, and dedicate them to either nonmotorized transport, or to transport with powerplants underneath a certain limit (I don't mind sharing bike roads with scooter riders).

[Odin2005]

28. I agree with this.

It will also make less room for cars on the roads, which will make driving more unpleasant and thus encourage high-density development and mass transit. Easy driving = Sprawl = Bad.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

31. no, it will encourage people to get as far away from cities as possible

the "urban lifestyle" is unworkable for the vast majority of people

[Odin2005]

35. I suggest you read "Green Metropolis"

Manhattan is the most Green place per-capita in the US. If we are to whip global warming in the bud we should try to live more like New Yorkers.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

42. You can keep Bloomberg's ''luxury city'' but I appreicate you proving my point

Manhattan shouldn't be a model for anything - if you think we have poverty now, just wait till you need to make $100,000 a year to live indoors AND afford your bus pass.

[Luminous Animal]

111. The vast majority of people can't walk

a quarter to a half mile? They can't bike a mile or 5? If I take you literally, then the vast majority of people are lazy fucks.

When I walk out my door, and I live in the heart of San Francisco, I have 8 books stores within 5 blocks of my apartment. Two hardware store and 2 other stores that sell hardware. I have 5 pharmacies. Two supermarkets. A produce market, 3 bakeries, a farmer's market on Wednesdays, a gazillion restaurants & cafes, a gazillion places to drink, a dozen churches/synagogues/mosques, 5 used furniture stores, 7 new furniture stores, 5 outrageously chi chi furniture stores, a paint store, a fabric store, 3 pet stores, a vet with a 24 hour hospital attached, a tool lending library, a book library, 3 bicycle shops, 4 laundramats, 7 dry cleaners... you get the picture.

What's unworkable?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

115. The vast majority of people can't afford to live in the heart of San Francisco

The only ordinary people I know who live in SF are living in houses they inherited and Proposition 13 keeps them from being taxed out of.

[Luminous Animal]

123. Really.

Only 30% of the people who live in San Francisco own their house or condo. The rest of us are renters. All my friends are ordinary people. They are bar tenders and car mechanics, school teachers and city gardeners, bookkeepers and artists. I've lived here for 20 years and I've only hung out with one person who inherited property.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

131. And what would rent be on say a 1500 square foot place suitible for a family?

Anywhere else in the country outside of NY that 30% would be considered a crisis.

[Luminous Animal]

136. There are plenty of families in the city.

I've raised one (she's 19 now). She has oodles of friends who were born and raised here and happily so in housing much smaller than 1500 square feet.

And there is a butt load of people who own property right now who consider doing so, a crisis. The last time I looked, there were a lot of folks being evicted or being upside down on their loans.

There is a lot more to happiness than a quarter of an acre of land and a lifetime of maintenance.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

172. and once again, the price of that housing?

[yodoobo]

134. Sounds very crowded

To folks who enjoy living in an apartment in a city, my hat is off to them.

Me? I can't stand living jammed in with so many other people.

[dysfunctional press]

153. what's unworkable?

the costs, the population density, and the living space, for starters.

my garden alone has more square footage than most city apartments.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

171. my master bathroom is larger than a friends Manhattan apartment

and they make almost $100,000 a year

[tonysam]

40. There really needs to be good, clean bike paths

whether alongside regular roads that are lightly traveled or on full blown bike paths.

I always try to stay away from congested areas. And, if I am going to ride where there are cars, confine it to the weekends anymore. I try and use bike paths other times, although Reno's aren't very good.

Southern Oregon has a pretty good bike path along the Greenway, which is way better than anything in Reno, and runs I believe about 24 miles one way (it might be a little bit shorter) from Central Point to Ashland. I used it a lot when I was in Oregon these past six months and will be using a lot more often when I finally moved out of Reno for good.

[gorfle]

47. Why?

If 25% of the current vehicle traffic was made up of bicycles, I could see doing that. But it's about 1 bicycle for every 1000 cars at the moment. Your plan makes no sense.

[taterguy]

29. How do you suggest I get to work?

This is a serious question.

My office is 3 miles from my house.

Walking it would take much more time and would require considerably more exertion since bicycles are remarkably efficient machines.

And no, mass transit is not an option in my town.

I look forward to your wise reply.

[gorfle]

50. In a manner that does not inconvenience others.

I don't care how you get to work, as long as you don't inconvenience others doing it.

[Odin2005]

53. Ah yes, bicyclists need to know their place, you're not a Real American if you don't drive!

:sarcasm:

[taterguy]

57. Doesn't everyone who travels inconvenience others in some way?

I could drive to work at 90+ mph and get there 90 seconds faster.

If there was no one else on the road.

And when I fly it would be much easier to get through airport security.

If there was no one else in line.

[MajorChode]

61. If a frog had wings, it would still be screwed

But wouldn't it be cool?

[taterguy]

62. A frog with wings would just freak me out

YMMV

Obviously

[gorfle]

67. Apples to oranges.

I could drive to work at 90+ mph and get there 90 seconds faster.

If there was no one else on the road.

And when I fly it would be much easier to get through airport security.

If there was no one else in line.

Just because things would be better if there was no other traffic does not justify traffic that is far slower than every other motor vehicle on the road.

[taterguy]

73. You're just trying to bait me aren't you?

What the hell; I've had a few.

I find it "inconvenient" that we're slaughtering countless innocents in oil wars.

Why?

So that people can get work a few seconds faster while they wait for a safe opportunity to pass me while I'm riding my bike.

In the grand scheme of things what's more important:

Getting to work a few seconds earlier or a world where people didn't kill each other over oil?

[gorfle]

78. False dichotomy.

I find it "inconvenient" that we're slaughtering countless innocents in oil wars.

Why?

So that people can get work a few seconds faster while they wait for a safe opportunity to pass me while I'm riding my bike.

In the grand scheme of things what's more important:

Getting to work a few seconds earlier or a world where people didn't kill each other over oil?

I also hate the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Make no mistake - these wars aren't about ENERGY, they are about MONEY and CONTROL.

If we had invested the amount of money we spent on wars to secure access to oil instead on clean, renewable energy we wouldn't have to choose between convenience and war.

In the end, it's a self-solving problem. Squished bicycle riders.

[Shell Beau]

80. He is actually helping the planet by riding a bike instead of driving

3 miles to and from work every day. I don't have that option. I have to take my baby to day care that is at least 15 miles from my home, then drive another 5 or so to get to work. But if it is feasible, it is a great way to help the planet while getting exercise. What needs to be done is to make it easier for those who want to use a bike. Everyone wins.

[gorfle]

82. I agree.

There need to be more roads for bicycles.

[Luminous Animal]

89. If there was a bike path,

you wouldn't be inconvenienced. It's been a process in San Francisco but with our expanded bike lanes and well marked bike routes and bike racks on buses, more people have started riding their bikes to work and for pleasure.

[Hannah Bell]

90. cars inconvenience me.

[gorfle]

102. It's a matter of numbers.

If there was one car for every 1000 cyclists, I could see how we would expect the people in cars to put up with it.

But since it's one cyclist for ever car, I expect the cyclists to put up with it.

[Hannah Bell]

114. better/more bike lanes/paths = more riders.

just like better/more roads = more cars.

the current situation is a historical policy choice, not a mandate either from consumers or from god.

[gorfle]

155. I have no problem with that.

There needs to be more bicycle lanes and sidewalks.

[tavalon]

150. I agree with you, tonight especially

I live too far from work to ride a bike and tonight, as I was driving on the highway, my car was struck by another driver. I walked away from it but I don't feel much like a fan of cars right at the moment.

[Bill McBlueState]

185. what is this right not to be inconvenienced that you speak of?

It must not apply in my jurisdiction -- various people inconvenience me every hour of the day. Having to pass a cyclist from time to time is pretty low on my list of concerns.

[MajorChode]

41. Here's the part you're missing

Sidewalks and even bike trails have the potential to be even more dangerous, for various reasons, but most notably because they still have to cross the traffic lanes at some point and when doing so they are in an even more precarious position than they would be if they were in the traffic lane. As the OP illustrates, the vast majority of accidents happen at intersections. Your response is typical of the misunderstandings that surround bike riding in that you think they will be safer if they are off 'your' road.

[gorfle]

52. Precisely.

Your response is typical of the misunderstandings that surround bike riding in that you think they will be safer if they are off 'your' road.

If they were off my road, and that includes intersections on my roads, they would be safer. So would the rest of us that have to weave and dodge and hit the brakes because of them.

[taterguy]

59. If it's "your" road would you be willing to pay for it?

That is, do you think that roads should be completely financed by taxes and fees paid by motorists and no one else?

How much do you think that would add to what it costs you to drive?

[gorfle]

69. Sure!

If it's "your" road would you be willing to pay for it?

I'll be willing to pay for it if the cyclists are willing to match the share paid by the motor vehicle users.

Otherwise, we'll keep paying for it the way we are, and I expect people who use the road not to cause traffic problems.

[taterguy]

77. Please answer the second part of my question. How much extra would it cost you?

[gorfle]

81. I have no idea.

I have no idea. Nor do I care.

[taterguy]

87. So what makes them "your" roads?

[gorfle]

103. Numbers.

There are far more motorists than cyclists.

[taterguy]

151. Tyranny of the majority was repudiated in this country a long long time ago

Please continue this discussion after you've passed a course in basic civics.

[gorfle]

159. Thanks for establishing that.

At least we've established that you think it's OK for one out of every 1000 people on the road to inconvenience everyone around them just because they can. Heaven forbid we have a "tyranny of the majority".

"I'm gonna do what I want and fuck everyone else!" - bicyclist mantra.

[taterguy]

165. I bike to work because it's the most sensible option

Using an automobile to travel three miles would be a vast waste of resources, both my own and the resources of the planet in general.

I'm one of those weirdos that likes things like clean air.

It also keeps me in decent physical condition which lowers the strain on our nation's health care system.

Lastly, I don't concede your claim that I'm inconveniencing anyone.

My commute has relatively wide roads and lots of stop lights. If I was in a car the lines at the lights would be longer and fewer people would make it through the lights. The time I save them by biking exceeds any few seconds that someone has to wait to pass me.

[Luminous Animal]

95. Why should bicyclists...

match the share of motorists? The toll exacted on pavement and the amount of pavement necessary to accommodate an automobile far exceeds what would be necessary to accommodate a bike. Not too mentions the savings in pollution control and related illnesses due to pollution.

[gorfle]

104. If you want to share it equally you pay equally.

Otherwise stay out of the way.

[Luminous Animal]

125. But bicyclists don't share the road equally.

They only take up a small part of it and there's far more to road maintenance than space. There is wear & tear. Highways that have heavy semi use deteriorate at a much faster rate than roads that are mostly used by automobiles. Bicyclists should be taxed in proportion to their impact. And drivers should be, as well, for both the public space that they usurp and their environmental impact. If drivers were required to pay-as-they-go, gas would cost $7-$8 a gallon.

[gorfle]

156. I don't see it that way.

I'm not talking about wear and tear. Bicyclists demand equal use rights of the road on par with everyone else, despite the fact that they cannot move as quickly as everyone else, and despite the fact that there is like one of them for every thousand motorists.

[Luminous Animal]

94. Sure.

If you are willing to require that each driver be assessed with a user fee equivalent to the cost of maintaining the roads and infrastructure. Walkers, bicyclists, & mass transportation users already do pay for the roads that we may not use. While gas taxes and fees support both auto and mass transit, much of the infrastructure is supported through general funds... things like policing, signs, pothole repair, traffic lights, etc. There is a great book called Asphalt nation that itemized the subsidies towards go towards our highway infrastructure. Individual drivers pay as little as 40% but only as much as 65% (depending where you live) to cover the costs necessary to provide the with individual transportation.

[NoUsername]

135. I've always read that 85% of the money for roads and infrastructure

comes from the general funds. I don't have a link handy and it's rather late so I'm not inclined to hunt one down but that's the figure that I've always seen.
Also, many people that ride bikes also own a car and pay the same vehicle fees and gas taxes as others. Of course, cyclists use less gas than people that drive all the time and thus their gas bill is lower but they still pay gas taxes every time they fill the tank.

My commute by car is 12 miles each way. By bike, it's 15 each way. I bike most of the time but in the winter when they don't plow the bike lanes and/or it's below zero, I take the bus. I obey all traffic laws and always always always ride defensively. I'm very fortunate in that I have a great route to work. About 5 miles is dedicated bike path, 7 miles is on roads with bike lanes, and the rest is on roads with no bike lanes. In my experience, 99% of the drivers are absolutely fantastic. They are extremely courteous and very considerate of sharing the road. I always get the feeling that they see my panniers and know that I'm just going to and from work like they are and that they fully respect my chosen mode of transportation. In the event that I need to "take the lane" in order to go around a utility truck or whatever that is blocking the bike lan, I look over my shoulder and signal my intent to move left. If there is a car coming up, they invariably slow down to let me take the lane. I get around the obstruction as quickly as possible, move back into the bike lane, and give a friendly wave and thumbs-up to the car behind me. I never ever fail to receive a friendly wave back. If I need to make a left turn, same thing. Bikes and cars can indeed co-exist peacefully. Everyone just needs to chill out and share the road.

Now as for the other 1%, in my experience, lots them are just inattentative drivers. They're often talking on their cell phones while eating fast food and fiddling with the radio. They just can't be bothered to look at the road. But I've found that the biggest danger is often caused by a driver misjudging the speed of a cyclist. The see a bike and think "Oh, it's just a bike. They're probably going like 3 MPH" and then make a left in right front of me. Since I'm actually traveling anywhere from 15-20 MPH, I have to slam on the brakes in order to avoid smacking directly into the passenger side of the car. Usually by the time I'm stopped, there is anywhere from 1-3 feet from my front tire to the passenger door of the car and the driver has a very surprised look on his/her face. Aside from those types of drivers, there is a very, very small percentage of drivers that intentionally try to run cyclists off the road. Those are the scary ones. They would kill you in a heartbeat for being on "their" road if they thought they could get away with it. Best thing to do with those kind is to memorize their license plate and report them if your state provides a means by which to do so.

So, while there is that 1% out there that can kill me, it's the 99% that are extremely courteous drivers that I always choose to remember. Maybe I'm just really lucky but I've logged many thousands of miles and have never been hit. Or maybe it's just that the drivers where I live totally rawk. Or maybe it's a bit of both.

I wish other cyclists had it as good as I do. I really feel for those that don't.

[MajorChode]

60. If a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's ass

It ain't your road anymore than it's their road. If you lack the skills and ability to share it safely, then I would suggest you stay at home and stay off everyone's road, but I don't hold out any hope for that one either.

[gorfle]

71. I did not claim it was.

If you lack the skills and ability to share it safely, then I would suggest you stay at home and stay off everyone's road, but I don't hold out any hope for that one either.

It's all about mutual respect. When you pedal along at 20 MPH stacking up traffic and causing people to weave into oncoming traffic to get around you you are showing no respect for motor vehicle drivers. Why, then, should I respect you?

If you can't keep up with the flow of traffic and not cause traffic problems, then I suggest you stay at home and stay off everyone's road, but I don't hold out any hope for that one, either.

[MajorChode]

91. Oh, please

I've only been driving for north of 30 years now and I've never once seen a cyclist holding up traffic for more than a few seconds.

So it has a lot more to do with maturity than it ever will about your claim of mutual respect. If you can't learn to live with being occassionally inconvenienced for the time of one good beer fart, you should probably better evaluate yourself or seek professional help. That type of Type A bullshit mentality leads to road rage or at the very least your own shortened life span and has no place on the road. Find some music you like and sit back and enjoy the ride instead of worrying about getting to work 20 seconds sooner and winning your rat race.

[gorfle]

100. Like I said.

If you can't learn to live with being occassionally inconvenienced for the time of one good beer fart, you should probably better evaluate yourself or seek professional help. That type of Type A bullshit mentality leads to road rage or at the very least your own shortened life span and has no place on the road. Find some music you like and sit back and enjoy the ride instead of worrying about getting to work 20 seconds sooner and winning your rat race.

It's not about the length of the inconvenience. It's the attitude that you somehow have the right to inconvenience everyone and we all just have to deal with it. The very fact that you think it's acceptable to inconvenience other drivers at all is extremely arrogant.

[MajorChode]

112. You certainly don't have to deal with it

You can die of congestive heart failure at a relatively early age if you like.

[gorfle]

157. Of course I have to deal with it.

I drive everywhere. When I encounter bicyclists, I have to deal with it. Not sure what this has to do with congestive heart failure.

[MajorChode]

160. You should learn

Obviously you have no idea how much you're revealing about yourself.

Symptoms of Type A Behavior

1. An intrinsic insecurity or insufficient level of self-esteem, which is considered to be the root cause of the syndrome. This is believed to be covert and therefore less observable.
2. Time urgency and impatience, which causes irritation and exasperation.
3. Free floating hostility, which can be triggered by even minor incidents.

...

Health implications

Type A behavior was first described as a potential risk factor in coronary disease in the 1950s by cardiologists Meyer Friedman and R. H. Rosenman. After a nine-year study of over 3000 healthy men, aged 35-59, Friedman & Rosenman estimated that Type A behavior doubles the risk of coronary heart disease in otherwise healthy individuals. This research had an enormous effect in stimulating the development of the field of health psychology, in which psychologists look at how a person's mental state affects his or her physical health.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_A_personality#Health_implications


Have a nice day.

[gorfle]

164. I'll take my chances.

At least I'm not inconveniencing others while risking my life.

[MajorChode]

166. The irony here is no less than completely fucking hilarious

You call bike riders fools for riding on public roads even though the reality is their risks are only slightly higher than smug fools who think they are safe inside their rolling cage. Apparently you lack the ability to understand that it's only the Type A douchebags who see it as an inconvenience in the first place. So chances are the bike rider will be bouncing his great grandchildren on his lap well into his 80s or beyond, the Type As will have been worm food long ago.

So feel free to express your righteous indignation all you want. At least there's some entertainment value involved.

Cheers!

[gorfle]

170. Like I said, take your chances.

You call bike riders fools for riding on public roads even though the reality is their risks are only slightly higher than smug fools who think they are safe inside their rolling cage.

Mmmhmm. Have any other bridges for sale?

Apparently you lack the ability to understand that it's only the Type A douchebags who see it as an inconvenience in the first place.

I'm sure everyone who weaves around them in traffic finds it all fine and dandy, and they smile happily as they try and judge oncoming traffic while not knocking the widdle pedewer off the side of the road.

So chances are the bike rider will be bouncing his great grandchildren on his lap well into his 80s or beyond, the Type As will have been worm food long ago.

Squish.

[MajorChode]

173. Spend your life living in irrational fear if you like

If you factor out bicycle accidents with kids, those who ride against traffic, on sidewalks, at night without lights, and drunk, bicycling on public roads becomes a relatively safe activity which is at least comparable with driving a motorcycle and arguably safer. So believe whatever you want to believe. I'm not selling you anything. I do all sorts of things people think are risky, but I prefer to make my decisions based on reality and reason rather than irrational fear. Obviously YMMV. I'd also rather actually get out and enjoy living my life rather than sitting inside a cage with a false sense of security getting so upset over shit that most people don't give a 2nd thought about. Obviously, YMMV.

Have a nice life.

[Shell Beau]

83. I am glad they are your roads. Glad we got that part straight.

Whew!

[gorfle]

105. Wasn't my term.

I simply adopted MajorChode's terminology. He said they were my roads.

[MajorChode]

175. Not quite

You ridiculously suggested that cars have more entitlement to roads than bikes when such flies in the face of the laws of every state in the union and you also ridiculously suggested that bikes use sidewalks when such is illegal in probably every locality in the US (for good reason). So your implication was quite clear and you were more than happy to run with it.

Glad I could clear that one up for you.

[NoUsername]

143. Exactly. The statistics show that a cyclist is 2.5 times more likely

to get into an accident on a bike path than on the road. Bike paths have pedestrians, people walking dogs, joggers, rollerbladers etc., many of whom are listening to their iPods and thus don't hear you call out "on your left" when passing. They also tend to be rather inattentive. I've had a lot of close calls with pedestrians that are walking towards me, listening to tunes, and staring at the ground while wandering all over a 6-foot-wide bike path. It's even more annoying considering there is a dedicated pedestrian path 3 feet over but they can't bother to read the signs. That said, while a cyclist is mroe likely to get in a accident on a bike path, the injuries tend to be minor whereas if they're in an accident on the road, the injuries are often more serious for reasons which should be obvious.

Road crossings on a bike paths are definite danger spots. Luckily, the bike path I take for 5 miles of my commute has only a couple of road crossings. It's actually better than the road in that respect as the road has a number of traffic lights but the bike path is between the road and the river and thus is straight-through whereas traffic on the road has to stop for the lights. It's kind of like a freeway for bikes. ;)

[Ignis]

92. I'm guessing you're from Bumfuck, Nowhere? (nt)

[gorfle]

106. Depends on your definition.

If you consider Huntsville Alabama bumfuck nowhere, I guess so.

[U4ikLefty]

96. I am a Professional Engineer in roadway design & you my freind

are a DOUCHE!!!

The "streets with cars" were desinged for ALL acceptable modes of trasporation.

I know you "don't care what the law says" beacuse YOU are special...prick!!!

[gorfle]

107. I'm no the one looking for special treatment.

The "streets with cars" were desinged for ALL acceptable modes of trasporation.

That may be. Nonetheless, most of us drive in cars, and expect to be able to drive within the speed limit and capabilities of such vehicles.

know you "don't care what the law says" beacuse YOU are special...prick!!!

I'm not the one asking everyone to drive specially to meet my special needs.

[Luminous Animal]

141. The speed limit is the maximum allowed. It's not a mandate.

The minimum is based on the conditions of the road. If there is a bicyclist ahead, the minimum rules apply. Where I grew up, after an ice storm and before the road crew cleared the road, those who drove the maximum allowed would either be dead from an accident, or dead from being beaten up by their very irate neighbors.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

147. The CHP doesn't see it that way and I have the ticket to prove it

[gorfle]

154. As I already said.

The minimum is based on the conditions of the road. If there is a bicyclist ahead, the minimum rules apply.

As I already said, I understand the laws. This does not change the fact that less than 1 out of every thousand people on the road are altering the usual driving conditions for everyone else. It's very inconsiderate.

[Odin2005]

21. Drivers need to learn to treat bicyclists with respect instead of acting like assholes.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

24. and cyclists need to learn the rules of the road,

[Gman2]

39. Motorcyclists folow the rules, and you run our asses down the same way.

[gorfle]

72. Which is why

Which is why you are a fool to take to the road on a bicycle.

[MajorChode]

110. It was kind of fun watching his point sail over your head

[MajorChode]

108. And drivers don't?

The whole worn out "cyclists need to learn the rules of the road" bullshit meme is little more than what some narrowminded people use to justify their hate of all cyclists. They see one or a few cyclists running a stop sign and they think that entitles them to some sense of high-minded superiority over them. For every one cyclist in that situation, there are thousands of drivers that can't drive their thumbs up their ass with a road map which more than equalizes the stupidity.

[Telly Savalas]

118. So do drivers

I can't drive more than a couple minutes without seeing some dickhead driving on the yellow line in the middle of the road, failing to use their turn signal, tailgating, driving without their lights on when it's dark, or running a stop sign.

Oh yeah, and that rule of the road that says when the light turns green you don't spend 15 seconds pondering the nature of the universe. You fucking put your foot on the accelerator and move your goddamn vehicle.

There aren't too many bicyclists around here and that's mostly because you'd have to have a death wish to try to share the road with the inattentive assholes operating motor vehicles on these streets.

[gorfle]

65. Hmm.

Drivers need to learn to treat bicyclists with respect instead of acting like assholes.

Strange that you would say that. Cyclists expect everyone to conform to their lowest common denominator. I would say causing traffic to slow down below the posted speed limit, causing traffic to have to weave around you in traffic would be the very definition of "acting like an asshole".

[Shell Beau]

85. I hate being backed up in traffic as much as anyone, but I also

know that biking to places is a good idea if it is possible. Instead of getting all pissy about bikers, get pissy that there are no good places for them to use their bikes.

[gorfle]

109. I did.

I already said we need more sidewalks and bicycle lanes.

[NoUsername]

140. Cyclists aren't "causing traffic to slow down."

Cyclists *are* traffic.

[gorfle]

158. Right.

Sure. Cyclists are traffic. Traffic that hinders the flow of traffic around them.

If I drove my car on the road like a bicyclist does I'd be given a ticket.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

174. I have been given a ticket for trying to avoid cyclists

for keeping my distance from a flock of fucktards riding on the PCH just south of Malibu, got a $45 ticket for obstruction of traffic.

I know the PCH is beautiful, but to ride a bike there you have to have a death wish. The bunch of them who decided that stopping around a relatively sharp turn to piss were especially stupid. The best part is the same cop who gave me a ticket for obstructing traffic cited them for public urination.

[KG]

25. i ride like eveybody in a car is out to kill me.

i don't assume anything. i wear bright colors.

ride on sidewalks where roads aren't safe (narrow, ditches on both sides, hi traffic). don't ride certain roads.

stay on back streets when i can.

no ear buds, proper peddling shoes.

[XOKCowboy]

43. Good idea. I used it when I rode motorcycles and it keeps you alive

People just don't "see" bikes of any type. Never assume they see you even if you have eye contact with them. Good luck and be safe out there.

[frazzled]

32. You don't need a car to get killed on a bicycle

(Although it helps).

I live in a family of addicted cyclists. Not commuter cyclists, but road bikers. You know, the tight Italian pants and the expensive bikes with skinny wheels. My dad started the craze when he was in his 60s and took it up, cycling 40 miles a day until, boom, he swerved and hit a curb cut out and broke his hip when he was in his late 80s. He's 93 now, and most spends his bike time on a stationary bicycle at the gym (1 1/2 hours each day), though he still can do 20 miles or so if the weather is nice. My husband used to ride 25-30 miles every morning before dawn (before the cars are out) with a small group of neighbors. He ended up in the ICU with broken ribs, punctured lung, his head cut open, and contusions everywhere. It had nothing to do with a car: the gas company had left a small cover open after doing some work at the bottom of a hill on the road. His front tire hit it and he ended up body surfing down the tar for about a hundred yards till his head hit the curb. He still bikes almost daily in the good weather, but in a new city ... so he does 19 miles before work.

Just the other week, my brother, an avid cyclist, ended up in the hospital too. A dog ran out in front of another cyclist, who swerved, sending my brother flying over a ravine: broken collarbone, complete set of broken ribs, punctured lung, concussion, etc. It's a good thing the season is over, but I expect him back on his bicycle next spring.

Now all three of my guys would be dead or vegetables now if they weren't wearing helmets, which they wouldn't think of riding without. But all these accidents have convinced me that cycling is an extremely dangerous sport. Sooner or later you are going to end up very seriously injured, despite your expertise. And a car doesn't have to even come near you. I hold my breath every day: It's just a matter of time before my son ends up in the hospital.

As you can tell, at the moment, I'm not a happy bicycling widow, sister, daughter, mother. I wish I could get them to take up tennis. You may pull some tendons, but you're unlikely to risk your life.

[Fumesucker]

54. I note that none of the accidents you relate were fatal..

http://energetich20.blogspot.com/2008/02/cycling-is-six-times-safer-than-living.html

Failure Associates, Inc. (now know as Exponent, which performs accident and failure testing, came up with the following figures a more complete list can be found at the OCBC web site):

Fatalities per Million Exposure Hours

Skydiving 128.71
General Flying 15.58
Motorcycling 8.80
Scuba Diving 1.98
Living 1.53
Swimming 1.07
Snowmobiling .88
Motoring .47
Water skiing .28
Bicycling .26
Airline Flying .15
Hunting .08
Data compiled by Failure Analysis Associates, Inc.

Based on these figures, bicycling is nearly six times as safe as living! What does that mean? It means that the risk of dying from some other cause (more about these other risks later) is six times as great as the risk from bicycling on an hourly basis, even though we face these other risks 24 hours a day, not just the one or two hours that a regular cyclist would spend on a bicycle. We can also see from these figures that cycling is only 55% as dangerous as traveling in an automobile per hour.

[frazzled]

128. Your statistics are not very meaningful to me

Of the extended members of my family, none has ever been hurt in general flying, motorcycling (my husband used to ride a Triumph back in the day), swimming, motoring, airline flying. They don't do any of the rest, so I can't speak to skydiving or scuba diving. I have had family members die from "living." But then we all do, don't we. I will say that I think motorcycling is the most dangerous of the common activities, and I have known a few people who have had bad accidents.

No, none of the injuries my family members sustained while bicycling were fatal. But they were extremely debilitating, involved expensive hospital stays and long recuperations. So I guess we could say that they cost you, the average health insurance consumer, some bucks. My husband still has a disfiguring scar on his forehead. My father walks with a limp from his broken hip, and my brother (who broke his collarbone biking twice before this latest time) now maintains a disconcerting tilted posture.

What a stupid list. Living doesn't even belong on the list, since 100% of people who live eventually die. Compare the number of bicyclists to the number of skydivers, and I think you'll also find a dubious statistic, for comparison's sake.

As the poster below states, bicycling is one of the most injury-prone sports.

[NoUsername]

144. I've logged many thousands of miles on my bicycle and have never been

injured. However, I was rear-ended while driving and that resulted in a shoulder injury which required 2 surgeries and resulted in permanent damage. Everybody's experience is different. I prefer to ride my bike rather than drive. It keeps me healthy which keeps health insurance costs down, doesn't pollute the environment, it's way cheaper than driving, and it cuts down on oil dependency, all of which are important to me. YMMV.

Nonethless, I'm really sorry to hear of all the injuries your family members have sustained.

[Mopar151]

58. The track manager at NHIS (And formerly Bryar) at Loudon

(where they have held weekly criteriums for 30 years +)
Told me that the bicycists get hurt more than any of the motorsport groups who use the place - MX, Flattrack (at the old track), Superbikes,Go-karts, SCCA, Nascar, et al. And that's a very controlled enviroment compared to the street....

[Iggo]

33. That works for motorcycles, too. (n/t)

[Hassin Bin Sober]

36. I almost clipped some asshole on a bike the other day.

I was turning right and the jag-off was passing me on the right - squeezing between me and parked cars.

Luckily, I head-checked right before I turned. I don't know why I did it.

If bikers want to ride in traffic, they need to follow ALL rules. That means stopping at ALL lights and ALL stop-signs. Got momentum going and don't want to stop for traffic signs and signals? Too fucking bad.

[MajorChode]

45. I would say the same thing about cage drivers

The vast majority of bike-auto accidents are not the fault of the bike rider, but instead are the fault of car drivers who want to talk on the phone, put on makeup, pick their ass, or whatever else they are doing besides following the #1 rule of the road which is to pay attention.

Lane splitting is legal all over Europe. It's also legal in some states in the US.

[Karenina]

37. In my town we have red-brick BIKE PATHS

bike traffic signals and white lines painted on the asphalt. There's also lots of bike parking.

[ThomWV]

48. About two months ago an old fart in a pickup just plain ran over a bicyclist in front of me

I was riding my motorcycle and following a pickup with and old fart driving it. We came up on a bicycleist who was riding on the edge of the road moving in the same direction as we. There was no oncoming traffic. The old fart ran right over the guy on the bike. Never so much as hit the brakes until after the bike went down. I saw it coming 200 yards away (about 40 mph) and couldn't do a thing but slow down so as not to hit what was going to be left of the poor guy myself.

[Fumesucker]

55. According to the study that is the most common cause of bicycle fatalaties..

Run over a bicyclist from behind..

[The Midway Rebel]

63. Yup. One incident convinced me.

Perfect day, clear roads, no traffic, dressed like a freakin' traffic cone with a flashing red blinker,red helemet and day glow vest, and some jerk whips past me doing 65 mph missing me by an inch. WHOOSH! I would have not had a chance in hell to survive. It has haunted me to this day and I no longer ride that road alone. 99.99% of drivers give me a wide berth out here on these country roads but it only takes that one time to end your life.

I sure would like to meet that driver fella' someday.

[AllieB]

70. Try cycling in the Boston area.

I bike, take the commuter rail to work, and drive on weekends (though not very far). I grew up in Cambridge and Boston, and I have witnessed two bike fatalities, and several bike accidents. a city like Boston, no matter what you do to make it bike-friendly, you can't redraw 17th-century streets and teach Boston drivers to not be assholes.

In both fatalities that I witnessed, the cyclist was not obeying the road rules. I admit I don't always obey the rules either, but I know better than to run a light on Mass Ave. As someone pointed out above, we're contending with people texting, talking on the phone, and generally not paying attention when they're driving. When you're biking, you better obey the rules, because most drivers are not.

[Ignis]

93. Wow, I can't even imagine.

SF has some tiny streets and alleys with blind corners, but it's got nothing on Boston in that regard.

:scared:

[AllieB]

113. And we have idiots on motor scooters who use the bike lane.

That's always fun. :eyes: It really is chaos sometimes.

[Jakey]

74. Perhaps I'm obstinate but...

As a youth in the 1950's, I was instructed to ride against traffic to better observe potential threats from vehicular traffic. Interesting to read that...

...only 4 out of 30 cyclists (involved in those Ft. Collins accidents) were travelling against traffic.

Made sense then...makes sense now.

Where I live, "state law" requires byciclists to ride with the flow of traffic. Go figger.

I break that law daily.

[seabeyond]

88. people making right hand turn is looking to the left, watching traffic. not forward

to see if something is there that isnt suppose to be there.

[Luminous Animal]

129. Bikes are supposed to be there.

Drivers should share the road. And drivers should always see if something is ahead of them before moving forward. Otherwise, a driver could plow right over a pedestrian who is legally crossing with the light. It is really simple. Stop and look before turning then look ahead towards the direction you are driving. Look in your right hand mirror before making a right. Look in your left hand mirror before opening your door.

[seabeyond]

162. no they are not. it is the biker taking life in hand.... why would you want

to pretend a situation like that is not dangerous. at the least, be aware when a person is pulling into traffic, they are going to keep eye on the threat, oncoming traffic. not an area where there is not anything that is suppose to be there

[dysfunctional press]

99. bicyclists are required to follow the same rules of the road as cars.

here's a website that explains why it's much safer for all concerned-

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/traffic/wrong.htm

[tencats]

79. I've seen two bicyclists hit by vehicles this year

Both were hit fairly hard and with both what I first saw was just the body airborne. It was only shortly later that as I passed the scene of the accident that I saw it had been a bicyclist. Its sad but both accidents evidently were caused by a vehicle speeding around stalled traffic by swerving into the marked bicycle lane. Then just last last month there was this one in that same area. http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=331391

[Fumesucker]

86. That's why bike lanes can be very dangerous..

Drivers say bicyclists should follow the rules of the road and yet so many drivers don't do that either.

In fact the great majority of bicyclists in the USA are drivers also, at least the adults are.

[dysfunctional press]

98. in the first two diagrams shown- the cyclist is in the wrong.

diagram 1- passing on the right.

diagram 2- going against traffic.

cyclists have to obey the same rules of the road as drivers.

[Luminous Animal]

121. In San Francisco

the bicyclist is following the law. That is, the bicyclist is to the right of auto traffic and moving straight through the intersection. The driver would be negligent for making a right into the bicyclist.

[dysfunctional press]

126. you might want to peruse your california driver handbook in regard to that-

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm

Operation on Roadway

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

if the bike in the picture had been in front of the car the entire time- they wouldn't be hit, as they'd be continuing on thru the intersection,

[Luminous Animal]

127. There is no evidence in that picture

that the bicyclist was overtaking and passing the car. In fact, the illustration clearly shows the bike ahead of the car and the car making a turn regardless. I've experienced numerous times a car turning into me even though I've been positioned in that same configuration as the illustration, that is, ahead of the car. I've not passed the car. I am in my traffic lane traveling with the flow (which is fairly easy to do in city commute traffic). What you are proposing is that it would be okay for a car in the middle lane to make a right turn into a car in the right lane.

[Warren Stupidity]

169. I'm stunned at the Stupidity shown here. I didn't know I had so many offspring.

Diagram one is pretty damn clear. The car overtakes the bike and turns into it. The bicyclist is peddling as per all regulations.

For the record: I have been hit by doing exactly what stupid proposed: passing a car on the left. Also hit by the right hook and by the perpendicular onslaught and had the door prize awarded. Riding against traffic is indeed wrong, although it does give the bicyclist the false security of seeing who is coming to hit him or her. Assume you are invisible and proceed accordingly. I now prefer bike paths, but they have their own problems, generally involving children not in control of anything.

[BillDU]

101. There's more than one way.

Driving defensively and having respect for traffic, (courtesy), has resulted in me escaping alot of bicycle mishaps, as I ride mine.
Curiously the only time I really had a situation, was when Washington was dominated by Republicans and I said something that did not coincide nicely with their opinion.
Then all of a sudden mishaps were commin at me.

[unkachuck]

116. with all the Tarping, Stimulus....

....and wall street money out there, why aren't we spending billions on a nationwide system of bike/trails/MUPs? Put some of them along existing highways, out of harms way, if necessary....

....people would/could travel locally and across the country....it would be GREEN, its construction would create jobs, it would keep cyclists and hikers safe, it would create business opportunities along popular routes for services, it would help make Americans healthier, it would help spur the creation of new human powered vehicle designs, it would be fun and entertaining to travel along!

....maybe we'll get an interstate bike/MUP highway system as soon as the corporate politicians figure out how to maximize their graft and corruption....

[Kazak]

124. I can't ride without a mirror.

You can't have enough eyes. It's nice to know what's coming up behind you, and if they're giving you enough space.

[1]

130. i don't mind bicyclists as long as they remember their place and stay there...

ride your little bike along the side of the road, with the flow, and follow traffic laws like the rest of us do.

did you ever have one of these peddling along frantically in the middle of an automobile lane as if it were a car? all funny looking in spandex with that attitude?

drop the attitude. move over to where you belong. follow traffic laws. and know your place in the transportation food chain.

everything then will be just fine...

[Kaleva]

137. As a bicycle will always lose a fight with a car, I don't ride bikes.

[taterguy]

180. We'd all be speaking German if people had that mentality in 1942

[Kaleva]

184. Hitler thought his bike could beat the Allied car. Hitler lost.

[taterguy]

186. Hitler lost because people made sacrifices for the common good instead of cowering in fear

[underseasurveyor]

142. It's the pack mentality that gets me going.

It isn't the one or two bike riders or the family out riding around or even those few weekend road warriors that I mind and for the most part they're very mindful and courteous riders. I don't mind sharing the road with anyone willing to or wanting to ride their bike. Hell we enjoy riding ours about town.

No, it's those huge packs of roaders, I mean the 20, 30, 40, and even up to 50 or more riders when they pack up they are seemingly oblivious to their surroundings and traffic and traffic laws. Riding three and four abreast meandering in and out of traffic lanes, running stop lights, zooming out of a side street onto a main thouroughfare, etc., with a fuck you attitude that goes along with it, cuz if you hit me with your car I'll sue the crap outta you.

When we ride our bikes we both just automatically assume that drivers aren't going to see us and we ride accordingly and we take no foolish chances. We don't take our flesh, blood and bones or our lives for granted given the fact that cars weigh a hell of a lot more than we do it's not worth getting run over because we were too complacent or arrogant enough to imagine that even if we did have the right of way, in a one on one with a car... we'd somehow come out the winner.

If both sides were a little more mindful and courteous of each other we could all share the same roads in relative peace and harmony.

I've spoken my peace:-) Ride and drive careful out there:hi:

[B Calm]

149. When making a wide right turn in a semi, it's not smart to drive along

side of his passenger side. . .

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

152. I had a horrible shock one day when a cyclist rode right in front of me as I was making

a right hand turn. I was stopped at a stop sign, waiting for traffic to clear before I could turn right onto a road that was all going right (two lanes in that direction, huge grass median, 2 lanes in other direction) . I was looking to my left because that was the only conceivable place traffic could be coming from - WRONG! Just as I was about to make the turn, a cyclist going in the opposite direction shot in front of me. He came off of a small walking path to my right - (bumpy, dirt, hardly used, not used of or thought of as a bike path) I almost broadsided him! But fortunately by a hair we missed each other.

I was grateful for the experience, because it taught me to expect the unexpected from any direction.

[Liberal_in_LA]

181. I have the green light. Bicyclist coming perpendicular on the red just blows thru his red

light. I honk at him and he looks at me like I'm crazy. His look says "I have the right to ignore traffic lights." OMG.

[madmom]

168. Had a incident just last week with a cyclist passing cars on the right...four

lane road narrowed because of a bridge. Cyclist passed several cars (enough where the last car could not see what was going on) there was a barrier on right side of the road because of some road malfunction. The cyclist whipped right in between the cars without hesitation to see if it was safe, everyone behind him had to slam on brakes, this was at rush hour.

[Strelnikov_]

178. ..

[undeterred]

179. Ride at night with no reflectors that will make you more visible.

That is my chief complaint about bicyclists.

[NoodleyAppendage]

182. Bible thumpers are the only group more sanctimonious than bicyclists.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO RISK DEATH, then DO NOT ride on 20 lbs of light framing materials in the midst of 2 ton cars. Simple. If you don't like that solution, then organize and construct bike paths or trails to suit your purposes. Here in the NC Triangle hundreds of miles of unused railroad lines are being repurposed for this very reason.

J

[taterguy]

183. As others have pointed out in this thread, cycling is not that deadly

No one knows what the rate of death for cyclists is, since no one knows how many miles cyclists actually bike.

I sincerely believe that cycling increases my life expectancy by helping me stay in good physical condition.

As for construction of bike paths, it would be impossible to build a network that would allow every person to get from their home to the places they need to go.

And I have tried. I've gone to lots of mind-numbingly boring, unproductive meetings. In some areas there's just no interest in investing money for new and upgraded facilities for cyclists. The railroad company wants a few million for the right-of-way for their tracks that they're not using anyway. Sorry, I don't have a few million in my checking account.

However, our existing roads are generally just fine, as long as people use common sense and courtesy.

And I mean both cyclists and motorists.

There's a simple rule I learned in high school: "Don't be a dick."

If everyone adhered to that rule the world would be a much better place.