Can we have a discussion on creepiness?

[Juche]

I posted this thread in the lounge last night, but had someone PM me and ask me to cross post it in GD. So here I am.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=9112407&mesg_id=9112407




----------------------------------------------


Anyone want to discuss this issue with me?

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/">Post

So I was reading this post and all the replies to it. I will grant you that if a guy does not seem to respect a woman's boundaries or needs, then that is a massive red flag that needs to be noticed. However that is not strictly a female on male issue. I am a male, and I remember a few weeks ago I was out with a male acquaintance and I noticed him doing some things that made me feel he had no interest in my needs or problems (I had a big problem, and he didn't seem to care). So I found an excuse to leave the situation (we'd been hanging out for several hours before that) and went home and never saw him again.

So my first criticism of the post that was made is that this whole issue of viewing someone as ignoring your boundaries or needs as a red flag is something that maybe women are better at picking up than men, but it is a red flag that transcends gender or type of interpersonal relationship (sexual, acquaintance, family, friend, professional, etc).

I guess another problem I have with some of the responses in that post (I am male btw in case you didn't know), is that the reality is if someone hurts you badly, it is probably going to be someone you trust enough to let into your life. It is not going to be 'the weird stranger who looks/acts different from me', it will be someone you've let into your life. And the truly dangerous predators know most people define 'dangerous' vs. 'safe' based on how normal a person is, and know how to act the part when necessary, be a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I remember reading something about Ted Bundy, and how some of his girlfriends couldn't understand how a guy they knew as a guy who respected their boundaries could turn around and be a sexual spree killer. One woman talked about how when she was on a date with him and gave a hint of not wanting things to advance beyond 2nd base, Bundy would stop. But the reality is the truly, truly dangerous people out there know enough about when to respect people's boundaries and needs vs when to ignore them. Socially awkward people are (in my experience) usually harmless.

I used to have severe psychosis as a teenager. As a result I went through a period where I had severe problems with boundaries and social skills. And I did a lot of things that would be considered creepy both during and for several years after my episode. But I never set out to hurt anyone. I just had trouble expressing my own needs and boundaries, and reading other peoples.

Based on the replies in the post I listed (which is closed for comments, hence me coming here), I am sure a few women over the years thought of me as a potential rapist because I was socially awkward and had trouble reading signals. But it seems that the women who think that are just looking for superficial social skills, not truly dangerous intent. I don't know how it sounds, but I don't want my sense of morality defined by people who define right and wrong strictly via social conformity.

Its like stranger sexual abuse of children. If you kid is sexually abused, it is probably going to be someone you trust enough to leave your kid alone with, not the 'weird stranger over there' who does it. And the true predators know that. They know how to get around the 'red flags' people have.

I just feel torn. On one hand I don't want to seem like a guy who is ridiculing or ignoring women's needs for safety. But on the other hand I think people are confusing superficial social skills and social status with predatory behavior. When the real predators probably know how to manipulate social skills and social status to take advantage of people.

I guess in conclusion (I'm drunk right now, so if I piss people off try to be nice) what I am trying to say is this.

1. People seem to confuse social awkwardness with being dangerous, which is insulting to those of us who are or have been socially awkward for various reasons (inexperience, neurological illness like autism, insecurity, etc).
2. The truly dangerous people know how to be socially normal, and know how to win the trust of people who feel that a person's level of danger is nothing more than a sign of how advance their social skills and social status are.
3. It is hard to have a discussion on this subject for fear it will descend into name calling.
4. Someone who ignores your boundaries and needs is a red flag for all genders in all relationships, not just men approaching women for romantic encounters. So yes, someone who ignores your needs and boundaries is a giant red flag. But it is a red flag for all interpersonal relationships. However, the truly dangerous know how to fake it.
5. Because of the life I've lived and the experiences I've had, I don't really respect most people enough to care what they think anymore. Which is making me really arrogant and I fear making me isolated. How can I be expected to respect judgments on human nature such as 'social skills are the best sign of how dangerous a person is'. Social skills are a sign of how well someone can socialize. The truly predatory are fully aware of how to respect boundaries when they need to, and how to ignore them when they need to.

I don't know. I know deep down inside some of the women who thought I was probably a rapist in college (not because I was a rapist, but because I was weird) probably ended up going on dates with guys who actually did try to date rape them. But because those guys had better social skills than I did, their defenses were down and even though they considered me a rapist, I am sure at least a few went on dates alone with guys who actually were rapists. How am I supposed to respect that kind of morality or thinking? I don't know. People whose sense of good vs evil doesn't extend beyond someone's social skills and who watch shows like dancing with the stars and pretend to read the bible but never do (because that is the religion this particular culture believes in) shouldn't be writing my morals for me.

I don't know. I worry I am starting to not respect people enough to care what they think anymore, which is probably bad in some ways. But then again, I think of some of the people I've met over the years and how shallow and useless they were, and I'm like 'what the fuck would I even want your approval for, what would it say about me if I had it'.

I feel torn. Part of me is disgusted by the superficial, easy to get around morality (social conformity = good, awkwardness = bad) of many people, the morality that truly dangerous people have no trouble getting around. But part of me feels I am being a dick for feeling that way, like I am being condescending.

Part of me feels I am self actualized ala Maslow in the sense that I have discovered my own values, goals and beliefs enough to not need social support. Part of me feels I am just an isolated, arrogant person and becoming moreso by the day.

Keep in mind when I say 'isolated' I do not mean people reject me. In fact, I get along fairly well with people. I mean I just don't feel a connection to many people because our outlooks, goals and values differ. I am 30, but the people I have felt connected to most strongly have usually been women over 60. Not in a sexual way, just in a human to human way.

I'm going to regret this post tomorrow when I'm sober. fml.

[TexasObserver]

1. As you said, You'll regret posting this tomorrow when you're sober.

Quote:

"I'm going to regret this post tomorrow when I'm sober. fml."

[Juche]

3. lol

I don't fucking care anymore. I'm having an existential crisis regarding how I relate to people.

[virgogal]

2. All I can say is you'd better lay off the booze.

[Juche]

4. Why

[TicketyBoo]

9. Especially

when posting online.

Look, there are programs available where social skills can be learned. It isn't easy, but it can be done, and you will be a happier person for doing it.

Lots of people have trouble picking up on non-verbal cues other people send out all the time, such as body language, hand gestures, and facial expressions. You're by no means alone.

[Juche]

17. I have decent social skills

Honestly. I don't know how it sounds, but my abilities are decent. I have read hundreds of books and articles on body language, social neuroscience, interpersonal communication, etc. I get along pretty well with people in person at this point in my life. I had trouble a few years ago, but I get along well with most people now.

I just am struggling because I feel like most people can't offer me the level of maturity, competence, tolerance and understanding I need to feel safe, secure and understood. And I'm starting to become alienated because I worry I'm painting all people with a bad brush. If anything I'm acting shallow because I'm writing people off because they aren't perfect. Nobody is perfect. But I worry I'm losing too much faith in people as they relate to me. And to address confusion, I'm not talking specifically about romantic relationships causing me to have these feelings, I'm talking about all relationships (professional, friends, romantic, family). I don't want to throw the good out with the bad.

[TicketyBoo]

52. I would think that someone

who defines himself as "creepy" is not all that confident about his social skills, and yet you say you are confident about yours?

Which is it? If you have good social skills, then I can't see how you would be "creepy."

Maybe you need some counseling to figure it out?

[Juche]

57. I'll clarify

I hate the word creepy, I find it insulting the same way gay people consider fag insulting. And aside from this thread I normally don't use it on myself or others.

I am not really awkward at this point in my life. When I was seriously mentally ill, and for several years afterwards I was awkward. But with time I became more centered, more aware and more self confident. So at this point, no I am not really awkward. But up until a few years ago, yes I was.

I really don't need counseling for this issue IMO. The issue I need counseling for is feelings of abandonment.

[Stevenmarc]

5. Apparently someone doesn't fall into the Happy Drunk category

[treestar]

6. #2 is probably quite true

[emulatorloo]

7. Interesting post -- I only had time to skim it but I think I understand your point

It is always good to see someone explain a perspective on issues in a direct and honest way.

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. Of course we can!

In fact, it's something of a compulsion.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. Thanks for editing the subject line.

But now my post makes even less sense.

[NYC_SKP]

10. EVERY person needs to respect EVERY other person's boundaries, regardless of sex, sexual orientation

and any goddamn other thing.

This is NOT a men only issue and your OP subject line is offensive, even if that is unintentional.

How would you like to read a subject line like:

Can we have a discussion on female creepiness?

:shrug:

[Prism]

11. The best way around it is discussion

While it doesn't seem to be quite to your degree, I do possess some level of social awkwardness in a different direction. I'm too shy, insular, quiet around people I don't know well. That has often been interpreted as stand-offishness, disinterest, or even dislike. I've had people who were very interested in dating who gave up because the cues I was giving off indicated to them a total lack reciprocity of feeling.

Eventually I learned discussing it with someone upfront sidestepped those problems. I had to learn to literally tell someone "I like you" and that they shouldn't interpret my manner negatively. People generally want some reassurance in their relationships. They want to know that other person reciprocates the platonic or romantic feelings.

If you find your manner is disruptive to forming connections, try discussing it with the other person, filling them in, making them aware of your personal nature. People are more open to that type of communication than you might think, and they appreciate it more when you're upfront. It saves a lot of wondering and insecurity down the road.

[Odin2005]

12. Ugh, I know all about the "confuse social awkwardness with being dangerous" thing.

:banghead:

[Juche]

16. You've got aspergers, right?

I think I remember you saying that a few times. So I wouldn't be surprised if you've had people react badly to you.

I don't know. I really think I need to see a psychologist about these feelings I have.

Just to vent, when I was 17 I started having (I am 30 now) severe psychosis. And psychosis responds really well to anti-psychotics because those control positive symptoms which I was having really badly (delusions, thought disorders). But everyone let me down. I was 17, and my parents, family, aunts/uncles, friends, the teachers, the principals, etc. They all let me down. I was 17 and had a severe neurological illness. I couldn't take care of myself. And all the adults in my life let me down. I expect kids to let me down (I was a senior in high school at the time), but adults did too. And my symptoms were so severe that it was obvious something was wrong. Everyone knew something was wrong. Maybe it was the bystander effect, which psychologists coined after the murder of Kitty Genovese.

And sometimes I would get so lonely that I would try to reach out to people, then they would become extremely creeped out or abusive because of how weird I was. Which made me even more isolated. I wasn't a bad person, I was just isolated. I just started feeling like most people are useless during the bad times in life. All they care about is social status and social skills, and I had low status and poor skills at the time.

I think deep deep down inside I fear many people are useless, or actively destructive, when push comes to shove. And I have worked like hell on myself to be able to function well in normal society by taking care of myself.

And its hard. Because I'm reaching a point where I fear I don't really respect people enough to want or need them anymore. And I want to want and need the minority of competent, useful people out there. Because I've met them, and when you find people who truly are deep, competent and mature they make you feel safe and understood in ways you could never feel on your own. Which is what I meant by me being 30, but relating to people in their 60s really well.

I've met some really amazing people in my life. And I've met some good people. And I've met people with good and bad. And I've met bad people. And I fear I'm letting the people who can't offer me what I need taint my perspective of everyone else.

[Odin2005]

32. Yes, Asperger's

Damn, that sucks. :( :hug:

[TwilightGardener]

33. Intriguing words to describe people: "competent", "useful", "useless".

I think of co-workers and bosses that way sometimes, but those aren't qualities that come to mind in terms of personal and romantic relationships.

[Juche]

35. I'm bitter

Bitter, bitter, bitter. I'm like coffee, except white.

You'd have to have lived my life to understand why I use words like 'useless' to describe many people.

[TwilightGardener]

37. Well, maybe people pick up on that bitterness. And anger.

And when you say you're looking for competent, "useful" people--well, that's what you look for in a plumber or an accountant. Not a friend or romantic partner. I've read enough of your post to see that you've been disappointed by just about everyone in life, that they didn't fulfill your needs and that you don't trust them to do so. It sounds like you need some therapy--maybe your expectations of what friendships and family and romantic partners are supposed to do for you, or make you feel, are unrealistic. Maybe you focus on yourself too much, on your own behavior or insecurities, and not enough on simply enjoying the company of others. Good luck to you.

[Juche]

42. I am working on that

Trust me, I am. And maybe my standards are high, but I think I should be able to live a life knowing if I have a serious illness at least one person will be able to get me effective help if I cannot take care of myself. Its really not a high standard to cross I am asking of the people I am close to. I am saying I want to be around people who bring seriously ill 17 year olds who can't take care of themselves to the doctor or a therapist for effective medical and psychosocial treatment instead of just feeling sorry for them, making fun of them or psychologically assaulting them for being weird. I'm sick of having to solve my own problems by myself because I think other people aren't competent enough to help. That is where my handle "Juche" comes from (long story, I covered it before). Then again I know most victims of sexual abuse (as an example) go their whole lives and nobody ever really notices or cares enough to ask about it. We can be a selfish species, myself included.

I have worked hard to build a network of people and places I can go to for help. I know which centers to go to if I get sick again, and have enough in savings to fund the trip and the treatments. I have a network of people I can talk to if I need help. I can take care of myself now. But that wasn't always the case. And it won't always be the case. I will be an old man some day.

But these feelings come up now and again. However everyone has issues. Everyone has anger, insecurity or hurt somewhere that can come out in the right situation.

I've made progress on this issue, but its something that will be with me a long time.

[TwilightGardener]

49. I'd guess that most people are afraid of ending up alone, or sick and alone--

that's universal, and there's no guarantee that it won't happen, for any of us. But it sounds like that fear is really driving the bus for you. It's commendable and responsible to arrange for your own future treatment, should you need it--you know you can take care of yourself, let that lend you a sense of security and self-confidence. But keep caretaking out of the realm of seeking a new friendship or romantic partner, at least for a while. You say you might need someone to take care of you in the future, and you are tired of dealing with your problems on your own--that's not necessarily selfish, but it's an unrealistic burden on new personal relationships to expect to find someone who is willing to take on someone else's personal challenges and needs. That only comes with love and/or friendship, that takes time to build, and it takes a true interest in someone other than yourself--maybe you are either scaring people off with neediness or self-absorption, or rejecting them too soon, before a bond can forged. You are right, we've all got scars, and issues, and coping mechanisms--it's good you are aware of them and working on them, many are not able to. Hope things look up for you.

[Juche]

51. I have met people who can give me what I want

I am extremely self absorbed (and arrogant, since we are on the subjet), but I don't think I am needy per se. What I'm saying is this, for all intents and purposes. There are some people on this planet who have the experience, maturity and competence that I know if something really, really bad happens to me and I cannot take care of myself, that they will be both willing and able to help. I felt like nobody was both willing and able to help me when I was a teenager in a meaningful way.

I've found people like that though. Usually they are liberals in their 50s and 60s who have had personal crisis's (family problems, etc) and who have struggled with their own demons and overcome them. However I'm not necessarily looking to them to take care of me, I am just looking to know they will be competent to step in if I need it. And I do the same for them.

A friend of mine on another board who is 66 recently started having memory problems and she was afraid it was Alzheimer's. So I dug up a bunch of info on Alzheimer's (early detection tools, various ways to slow progression, cutting edge research to look into, supplements and lifestyle changes that cut the risk, etc) and gave it to her to read. It is tit for tat. If I had a severe mental illness she'd step in to protect me. And if she is descending into Alzheimer's I will step in to protect her. I did not ignore her fears, and I didn't make fun of her for having memory problems. I took her seriously and made concrete steps as her friend to help protect her. And I know she'd do the same for me. If I was in a living hell, she wouldn't just feel sorry for me for a few seconds and then walk away. She'd make concrete efforts to protect me.

Another person was a woman in her 70s at a church. All she did was listen to me for 20 minutes, but it really meant a lot to me and I'll never forget it. I'm not asking people to babysit me or solve all my problems for me. I'm asking them to not give up w/o a fight when I need help, or to abandon me when I lose social status.

Anyway, I do appreciate the honest responses.

[TicketyBoo]

53. The simple fact is

that you can't change people. You can only do what you can do for yourself. You can choose to be around people who don't make you feel inferior or anxious or depressed, and if that means being alone, you can accept that it's okay to be alone for awhile.

The first step in others accepting you is to accept yourself, not necessarily be content, because we all need to work to be our better selves, but to keep the Serenity Prayer in mind.

God grant me the Serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the Courage to change the things I can;
and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Now, even if you are a non-believer, you can still take this to heart. It is the way to peace of mind. And we don't have to depend on anyone else for that. It comes from within. Once you can be happy and at peace with yourself, it will show, and you may find that relationships are easier to come by.

[ipfilter]

13. Maybe your just an introvert.

Do you feel mentally exhausted after being around people? Extroverts gain energy from social gathering where introverts feel emotionally drained by social events.

I'm an introvert. When I was a kid people thought I was shy. I'm not shy at all, I just don't say much in a crowd. After family and other social events I feel emotionally drained and love to go back to the peace and solitude of my own home.

[Juche]

36. I'm slightly extroverted

According to the factor 5 personality test. I actually feel renewed and energized after socializing if I have been alone too much. But I like private time. So I am slightly extroverted.

[Hannah Bell]

14. you're right. it's true. don't regret expressing the truth.

[ZombieHorde]

15. K&R

[NYC_SKP]

18. Thank you....

...for making the subject line less specific.

What people seem to lack is:

Others are different from them, what is acceptable to them or their immediate friends may not be to others; and'

the ability (or willingness) to pick up cues and clues that they are not behaving well.

How one is raised, an explanation for the first part, is not excuse when considering the second part.

Having said that...There are men and women who are not well socialized and seem predisposed to act with alarm when no real threat is presented, and this is unfortunate.

Just some brief global thoughts about interactions and perceptions.

There's a lot going on in your OP, sorry I can't take more time.

Take care.

NYC_SKP

[redqueen]

20. People who have been abused also are predisposed to react with alarm

when there is no real threat.

[NYC_SKP]

27. True, this too, is something about which many are not aware.

File it under, be aware, understand that others don't share the same experience, stuff like that.

Empathy, even when you don't know what another's experience is, imagine what it might be and be compassionate for what MIGHT be behind that anger or fear.

And listen, and be aware.

I swear I my last dog was the pick of the litter because, unlike the others sleeping or frolicking, she was sitting and looking and listening and trying to get a read on the stranger in the room, me.

I could go on, but it's not necessary, Bridgette was most special and lived a long life.

[Juche]

26. I'm sorry if I was offensive

I guess that is one of the things that bothered me, is that the discussion on that site seemed to feel that this kind of behavior was only male on female, and only occurred in romantic relationships. However boundary violations and ignoring other people's needs occur in all relationships. However I do not think that really makes a person dangerous. Truly dangerous people know how to avoid setting off red flags until it it too late.

Here is an example. I knew a guy on another board who has a masters degree, is really attractive, has a good job and great social skills (this was another board). And I remember he once was talking and he said 'type in the words drunk and rape in a porn site, and you get some great videos'. So this guy that women were throwing themselves at was watching porn where drunk women were getting raped. And it is bothersome. I feel like a lot of the women on that post I listed earlier, even though they were patting themselves on the back by believing everyone with Aspergers is a potential rapist, many of them would've gladly gone out on a date with the guy I am talking about because he was attractive, educated, had good social skills and a good income. He talked about how he got dates all the time. But he watched porn videos where drunk women were getting raped.

It seems when people are looking for red flags they look for 3 things. Social skills, social status and how well you know someone. So someone you know with good social skills and social standing is safe. But a total stranger with a weird personality is a threat. However, truly dangerous people know how to get around that. Ted Bundy knew how to get around that. He had a degree in psychology. He knew how to get strange women to get into his car. Child molesters with 20+ victims know how to avoid throwing up red flags. I remember once reading that true predators seek out positions of trust and authority, since that makes it easier to victimize people. So while people pat themselves on the back and talk about how smart they are because they've labeled everyone with autism as a rapist, the real predators are still out there because they know how to avoid setting off red flags.

In my experience, most people who engage in boundary violations either have poor social skills, have been abused and have trouble understanding the concept or are just nervous. Yes, some are dangerous. But most are fairly harmless. When I was 'creepy' (I fucking hate that word. This must be what black people feel like when someone uses the N word), it was because I'd been badly abused and isolated, and had trouble communicating because if it. And I needed help, understanding, compassion and tolerance. I didn't need to be isolated further because years of abuse and isolation made me weird. And its hard for me to respect people in general when I feel they act like this. I want to believe people are decent and helpful. And it is hard sometimes. And I'm not talking solely about women in romantic relationships. I'm talking about all people in all relationships. I know there are really decent, good people out there. And I know there are good (but not great people out there). And there are people that are good in some areas but bad in others. And I worry I am writing them off because I am becoming too cynical.

[Odin2005]

34. Those people that said that us Aspies are potential rapists are assholes!

That's pathetic. I've been there for a good friend who was raped several months ago. I volunteer at a rape and abuse crisis center. Bastards! :grr:

[Boojatta]

19. Did you notice this reply?

(...)

the only thing I can see it achieving is showing the bad men how to appear not creepy without actually changing anything about how they really view women and their interactions with them. It might enable them to convince the woman long enough to get close to them and still be just as dangerous.

There will be decent guys who might just be a bit socially awkward and not read the situation properly, or simply just not realize what they are doing, and they might benefit from this. I imagine those are the ones this article targets, but I believe the men falling in that category to be very small in number.

(...)

I’ll have to think about it some more and hopefully come up with some more coherent thoughts. Something just doesn't sit right with me on this.

[redqueen]

21. Those 'fast seduction' sites already teach the bad men how to do this.

So... no big deal on that one.

[Boojatta]

24. I posted it because it initially seemed to express a point of view

similar to what is expressed in the Original Post of this thread. However, re-reading it, it's difficult for me to put my finger on the similarity, assuming that there is a similarity.

[Boojatta]

22. Another reply puts forward a counter-argument:

I’m linking to one of his reports, as it shows very clearly that Starling has done an outstanding job of delineating WHY boundary violations, even seemingly minor ones, are in fact actually good indicators that you are not dealing with a nice guy, but a NG(TM).

If Nice Guys for real start to respect women’s boundaries on a regular basis, it provides LESS cover for NG(TM)s, not more. It makes us MORE safe, not LESS.

[coti]

23. A drunken, worthwhile post.

You're right that the people whose opinions truly matter will understand what you're saying.

[liberal_at_heart]

28. you make an awful lot of sense for a person who is drunk

I agree. My son has autism and is socially awkward, but he is a very caring, sweet, and funny person. I also agree that most people who violate or harm others usually knows how to act normal, the Green River Killer comes to mind as an example. As a woman I always keep my guard up and am always cautious. I'm always aware of my surroundings. When out for a walk, I walk on the sidewalk. I never walk alone in wooded jogging paths. No matter where I am, I usually keep a look out for things within my reach ie my keys, screwdriver, or blunt heavy object I could use as a weapon in case someone where to attack me. But I try not to let fear keep me from being tolerant of people who I may find different or strange. Fear leads to anger, suspicion, prejudice, hate, and violence. I try as best I can to live without fear.

[Juche]

30. I have no idea what that is like

I think that is where a lot of the back biting is coming from. As a man, I have no idea what it is like to have to live that way. I am 6', muscular and male. I have never been afraid to walk alone unless it was in a dangerous neighborhood at night. So I think the fact that having to keep your guard up like that (ie, walking in such a way that you always have a weapon nearby in case you need it) is something we men really don't understand and can't relate to. And I think confusion about that is where a good deal of the anger in that post I linked to was coming from.

[seabeyond]

38. men really don't understand and can't relate to... true that. i have a brother 6'3", muscular

linebacker into college. loves to fight.

tell me once, stupid to be afraid of stuff, or some such rot

ya... his position, easy to say. lol

[AllenVanAllen]

50. "Stupid to be afraid of stuff, or some such rot..."

I love that! :hi:

[Boojatta]

29. "So I was reading this post and all the replies to it."

Here's one of those replies:

This seems to be conflating two things: people who are socially awkward/inability to discern social cues such in the case of Aspberger's and "low grade creepy" I guess I’m not sure what is meant by this. Could you clarify because some of the behaviors you stated sound a lot like folks I know who are on the spectrum and equating their "lack" in social skills with creepiness or rape culture in general feels pretty fucked up to me.

Isn't that similar to the point that you're making?

[Juche]

31. It is part of it

Here is my point:

1. Most people who have trouble with social skills and boundaries are likely harmless. Either they have been abused, or they are weird, or they are insecure/anxious, or they have an illness, etc.

2. Truly dangerous people know most people, when looking for red flags, are likely just looking for low social status, bad social skills and fear of strangers. So the truly dangerous know how to get around that. They have good social skills, high social status and they know how to make people feel comfortable with them. Most truly dangerous sexual predators go after people who they can make feel safe enough being alone with them. It is only when they have their prey isolated that they act. Truly dangerous people know how to groom their victims and how to avoid setting off alarms until it it too late.

3. It is offensive and hurtful to all of us who are weird to know that we are going to be labeled as rapists merely because of social awkwardness. It is doubly offensive and hurtful because some of us know the women who are labeling us as rapists and child molesters will be easy prey for the real predators out there, who know how to avoid setting off red flags. While these women pat themselves on the back for labeling every lonely person or person with Aspergers as a rapist, the real rapists would likely have little/no trouble getting them alone and vulnerable.

4. I have a history of mental illness, and I felt totally abandoned and forgotten when I was sick. And the illness made me awkward. Instead of seeing my awkwardness for what it was (a sign that I was confused and isolated) some people saw it as a threat and I felt even more isolated. Now that I'm much healthier, it is hard for me to trust that other people are competent and mature enough to deserve my friendship. And its hard to find people who I feel are competent, trustworthy, mature, compassionate and understanding enough to feel I can rely on them. And posts like the one I linked to brought those feelings of isolation up inside of me.

[seabeyond]

40. very interesting stuff. it took me reading a lot of yours posts to get a feel for what you are

saying. but well worth it. it is good for me to hear this. to be more aware of not excluding because of oddity.

my oldest son has something. havent had him disagnosed. but something. his interaction with others is not inspiring, but he does ok. he gets along with adults and is more comfortable with adults, always has.

i am kinda drawn to the odd in life. not fearful of odd. but i do think there is a feel to the evil, or to the person who is hiding.... i think if a person opens their sense they feel something.

the last couple decades i have stretched the accepted societal norms and it works for me.

thanks for sharing.

reminds me of a person. my husbands college friends. one of the guys brother, really socially inept. i had only met him briefly once, but i had stories told so an impression was left. we went out in a group and i was sitting next to him. polite to him, but that was about it. my husband says to the group, my wife is against iraq war and sits back and crosses arms, and waits... (this was years ago and i live in ultra conservative texas). they all went after me. after a time this guy turns to me and says something, i forget.... but was so insigtful, so beyond the others in thought, so embracing of me. i am sure my mouth just dropped open. but in all his awkwardness, he was the shining lite. told hubby afterwards, way more to this guy than yawl give credit.

[Gwendolyn]

39. When it comes to people, it's really a crapshoot.

Socially awkward people are just as likely to commit a crime as are sociopathic, social butterflies. Sometimes the mentally ill lash out and kill someone. They struggle to find a way in the world, then one day go out and shoot or stab a stranger to death. Ed Gein and Phillip Garrido were both considered weird oddballs by neighbors. Both were dangerous. Nancy Eaton was a great comfort and help to her antisocial, troubled friend and he thanked her for it by viciously stabbing her multiple times and then raping her as she died in agony. Socially awkward people, oddball misfits don't all have a heart of gold underneath either. That's a myth. Some are selfish, self-absorbed horrible people who would walk over you if you lay dying on the street. There is no rulebook for assessing character. People really end up having to trust their instincts when it comes to trusting/befriending others.

[Withywindle]

41. I am socially awkward. I have no doubt many people over the years have considered me "creepy."

And looking back on it, I think, well, what can you do? If someone found me offputting, what that means is that we just weren't compatible.

It depends on what you mean by "social skills." The skills I'm looking for in a friend or lover aren't something that can be learned out of a book. It's not really even a skill at all - it's just, basically, at the heart of it: "do I enjoy this person's company and do they sincerely enjoy mine?" Do we interact in a compatible style, do we have similar senses of humor, some common interests, a similar sense of when to nuzzle close and when to be independent, etcetera?

Someone who's wildly different from me in these areas might ping me as "creepy", or s/he might just have totally different, incompatible styles of relating.

Toward the end of your post, a lot of passive-aggressive "fuck the people who judged me" stuff is starting to come out, and you sound very angry. Which is justifiable--but is also offputting. Chances are, the people who think were making judgments on you weren't judging you at all--they just didn't feel the "click" and moved on. That's not necessarily judgmental, just a fact that all of us have limited time on Earth to find "our people."

I'm awkward. All my friends are awkward too in one way or another, that's part of why we're friends. (But a small part. The bigger part is that we crack each other up and stick together over years and understand and forgive each other's bullshit.)

[Mixopterus]

43. Don't let that site get you down

her argument is fundamentally flawed and it's swarming with lazy charlatans.

I would point out that you really shouldn't internalize anything stated by a third wave feminist if you are a man, they thrive on endless gender warfare, not a rational dialogue or even a philosophically sound approach. I view them with the same scorn I view Randians, to be frank.

[seabeyond]

44. whats a third wave feminist? nt

[Mixopterus]

45. It's a feminist movement

That started in the 80's (The most recent form of feminism) that sought to correct the more esoteric aspects of gender inequality. The main problem is they lacked a rigorous philosophical basis for what that could be, and it became an increasingly self-referential and autocratic movement that served mostly (in my opinion) to enable power grasping by middle-upper/upper class women one hand, and a tool of obfuscation on the other to prevent external criticism of the circus that was increasingly becoming the reality of modern feminism.

[Juche]

46. You know, I never bothered to even check the source

Shit. Shit, shit, shit.

Something really seemed off about some of the women there. They seemed like they were circling the wagons and had a very strong sense of entitlement and "I'm right, you're wrong".

Many of them seemed like ok people. However some seemed really angry and entitled.

[Mixopterus]

48. Common mistake, don't sweat it

The reality of the intellectual foundations of third wave feminism is a little arcane, but the criticism of such is all but verboten with most critics coming from a variety of philosophical disciplines. You should note the relative disdain they have for philosophy as a result, evidenced in their using of the term "philosopher" as a pejorative.

Angry and entitled about sums it up, most of these are well to do women who have never really experienced gender inequality in the same severity that lives in their minds. There is a certain hysteria about the situation, only made worse by their willfulness in rejecting philosophical tools as basic as modern logic.

The worse thing you can, as I said, is internalize the madness that lives within them, not you. Treating every human you meet as an enemy is no way to live, that much is certain.

[seabeyond]

47. interesting. i just googled it. you have it

right on per wiki.

thanks.

[smalll]

54. You are not alone. You're a single 30-year-old guy -- there's many of us far LESS socially awkward

than you who also get nowhere just about never. Today's dating scene is a world of de-facto polygamy. (Part of the reason why there are such bad feelings between the sexes these days.)

[TicketyBoo]

55. Here is another thing to think about.

Nobody I know is "normal." We all have our idiosyncrasies.

So if you expect people to forgive yours, you're going to have to forgive theirs, too.

You are a physically large person, so if somebody finds you "creepy" or "weird," they may find you scary, too.

A friendly smile (but not a big grin) and a cheery (but not too loud), "Hi," may help. It is just so hard to know how anyone is going to take anyone else.

As I said, I don't know anyone who is "normal." We're all a little bit strange, each in our own way. If you keep that in mind, you may not feel quite so isolated.

[Juche]

56. I think people are misinterpreting things a bit

By that I mean this:

I get the impression people think I am still really awkward and scary. I used to be, but at this point in my life I am not. If anything I have pretty good insight into human nature and the people I know in person many seem to enjoy my company. I have read hundreds of books and articles on interpersonal communication, body language, social neuroscience, nutritional psychology, psychology, sociology, etc while I was relearning social skills after being mentally ill. As a result I actually get along really well with people.

Although I used to drive women away, at this point I actually find they seem to like me a lot more. My older brother's wife keeps hitting on me (which is bothersome). My younger brothers girlfriend said some really flattering things to me. At my old job there were 4 women I worked with regularly. Of them all 4 independently said they wish they had friends to set me up with (3 are over 50 though, so they don't know anyone. The forth tried to set me up but I wasn't interested). However I don't want to be set up, because I feel like I've lost my ability to trust people are willing and able to protect, understand and guard me when I need it. I'm not asking people to always solve all my problems for me. But sometimes I cannot solve them myself. And even if I could solve all my problems by myself, I'd rather not. Its not just that I have this problem in romantic relationships. I think it taints my friendships and family relationships too.


My point is that, I get the impression people are thinking this thread is about being rejected by women because I am socially abnormal. Which really isn't the case. That used to bother me.

What really bothers me is that I feel unprotected, misunderstood and unguarded. And it is hard for me to trust that people close to me are willing and able to protect me if I really need to be protected. The discussion on creepiness was just a trigger.


Martin Buber and Daniel Goleman wrote about something called 'I-you' vs 'I-it' relationships. The point is that in our interpersonal relationships we can either see other people as an object that has certain responsibilities and obligations who we are free to treat merely as an object (or a a threat) or we can see them as an individual with needs, feelings and boundaries of their own.

As an example, assume a bunch of kids are bullying another kid. The bullying victim is either a 'you' or an 'it'. If he is an it (which the bullies see him as) that means he is just an object they can subjugate and humiliate for the sense of enjoyment it gives them. He has no needs or personality of his own and therefore is not worthy of empathy. If he is a 'you' that means he is a human being who is vulnerable, ashamed and hurt. He is worthy of empathy and it'll be impossible to hurt him without making yourself suffer at the same time (due to guilt or shame).

Everyone has It vs You relationships all the time. This is hard to write, and I'm pressed for time. So I"ll try to clarify quickly.


Here is what I mean:


When I was a teenager I had a serious mental illness and I suffered severe psychological distress because of it. Even though it was obvious I was really sick, nobody really intervened in any meaningful way to protect me. People cared, but nobody knew how to protect me. So the illness ran its course and caused severe suffering.

After I was no longer ill and was recovering, I had severe problems with social skills and boundaries. In that period people could either see me as an 'it' or as a 'you'. As a 'you' I was someone who had been deeply traumatized and felt isolated, and was having trouble dealing with it. As an 'it' I was an individual who was failing to fulfill his obligations to society (aka being weird and creepy) and who needed to be avoided and ridiculed because of it. The reasons for my behavior and my isolation were all meaningless, all that mattered was my inability to be normal.

Imagine a woman is severely sexually abused by a family member. And assume the other family members (hell assume the entire high school she goes to) knows it is happening, but nobody does anything meaningful to intervene. She feels really forgotten, worthless and unprotected. Now assume because of the abuse she has trouble with boundaries, self worth and relating to people for a while. Many of the people she meets will just treat her as an 'it' (a slut, a whore, etc) and either ridicule her or abuse her further rather than seeing her as a 'you' and seeing the confused, vulnerable person inside who needs help.

Now assume she eventually relearns those boundaries and social skills she lost, makes relative peace with her past, tries to surround herself with mature protective people (people who she feels will intervene to protect her if she ever needs it, and who she feels she will intervene to protect if they ever need it too) and is a high functioning person. She goes onto a message board and sees a bunch of men referring to 'cheap whores who fuck on the first date' or something like that and all the feelings of being forgotten & objectified come to the surface.


At the same time I realize nobody is perfect. I wish I could sit here and say 'I am one of the good ones, not one of those bad people over there'. Everyone has good and bad traits to varying degrees in varying relationships. I have been a gigantic asshole in some situations. And I know some of the people who made me feel forgotten and unprotected are amazing parents or amazing family members.

But in a way that just adds to the confusion. You can't label a certain segment of society 'bad' and avoid them. We are all good and bad to varying degrees based on varying situations and motivations. Like Zimbardo said, it is not a question of bad apples, it is a question of bad barrels.

Like I said, this issue is going to haunt me for years. And I know there are tons of people on this planet who would consider my problems a cake walk compared to what they have faced. So everyone has been through bad things and I am not some person suffering in a world where everyone else is perfect and safe, or a world where nobodies needs but mine matter. However these are the bad things I've faced and I felt the need to talk about them. And when other people on this board have problems and I see the thread I try to say things to help. So its not like I feel only my life and problems matter and nobody else's do. I am saying that we all have problems, and we all need help at times. And right now I need it.

Everyone has problems. Everyone fails. Everyone feels unprotected and forgotten at times, and everyone does things to make other people feel that way at times. And nobody is perfect. And you can't demonize the 'them' over there because sometimes you are 'them' to somebody else.

[TicketyBoo]

58. I'm not sure anyone

can really protect anyone else.

You need to have enough confidence and independence not to feel the need to be protected.

I can feel secure within myself, but I'm not certain any person can make me feel that way. It has to come from inside, knowing that whatever happens, I will be okay.

After all, even if you have a significant other in your life, things happen that are out of your control, out of the other person's control. So security and a sense of being protected are an illusion, because it can all end with a heart attack or an accident at any moment, you see?

Security isn't all that secure. It's nice while it lasts, but it's not something you can count on.