I am so ashamed of my community

[RamblingRose]

I live in the northern suburbs of Atlanta in a very diverse predominantly middle class area. My daughter's 7th grade social studies class has been studying the middle east and a speaker from the Islamic Speakers' Bureau was going to the school today to educate students about Islam and Muslims' lives. This event was scheduled well before yesterday's tragic event.

7th Grade Islam Presentation
All 7th grade social studies will be attending the Islamic Speakers’
Bureau’s sixth annual “Islam 101” presentation at Trickum during regular
class times on Friday, November 6th. The Islamic Speakers Bureau of
Atlanta (ISBA) provides understanding through education and dialogue. The
program is designed to educate students in metro Atlanta about Islam and
Muslims’ lives. The speakers cover a variety of topics such as Islamic
history, demographics, culture, beliefs, practices and how they relate to
everyday life in America, as well as Islamic holidays and celebrations.
The goal is to educate students about Islam and Muslims. Through
face-to-face interaction among the speaker, students and teachers, the
presentation brings classroom readings to life.

Sadly, I noticed the following signs posted around the community today.


<a href="" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[RamblingRose]

1. How do I fix the illegal code??

[barbtries]

6. i'm not sure of the reason for it

but to post a graphic in DU all you do is past the URL including http://

[Toucano]

88. Too late to edit, but in the future you could just put this:

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz248/mapattillo/IMG_0681.jpg

for the first one and it will render (see followup below)

[Toucano]

89. Follow-up

[no_hypocrisy]

2. What a shameful demonstration of ignorance.

[timeforpeace]

156. If the Bible-thumpers get to do this, they should too. Do the Bible-thumpers get to do this?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

22. Are Christians oppressed? Would it make you feel better if they were and so got a forum? I AM

Christian, btw.

DU may not be the place for your ignorant bigotry.

[MattBaggins]

26. What opposing veiws

What is with you freepers and the mindless repeating of "opposing views"?

Not every thing has to have opposing views. You can have members of a myriad number of organizations speak at various places, each just introducing themselves and giving a bit of history and background; with absolutely no need for some else to come and disparage them.

Stop being an idiot.

[wolfgangmo]

101. Appose - noun, to place side by side.

I'm pretty sure you made a typo but it kind of works out your way too.

[Bertha Venation]

4. "equal forum not provided"?

It's not a debate. Jesus.

People are idiots.

[Toucano]

82. They can't get past their own proselytizing natures to understand that some just want to inform.

I took an Islamic studies course as an undergrad or I would have never learned about Islam and Muslims at all.

But these are the same idiots who want creationism to be given "equal forum" in a biology class.

[barbtries]

5. closed minded people

very sad.

[Codeine]

36. So if an evangelical Christian group

wanted to have a presentation at school on their religion, it's opposition to abortion and homosexuality, and how it's a vibrant cultural force to be respected you'd be ok with that?

I wouldn't.

[barbtries]

67. no i would not

and that is not what is being proposed here. what they're doing is providing a cultural exchange to expand the children's horizon and teach them about the other in a NON-threatening manner.

ISB-Atlanta is an apolitical, non partisan educational organization and a local affiliate of ING (Islamic Networks Group), the leading outreach institution providing education about Islam and Muslim culture since 1993, with affiliates both nationally and in England.

not exactly Westboro Baptist Church.

[mamaleah]

69. So Islam and Muslim culture is fine and dandy to teach about?

But not any others?

Wow. No double standard at all.

[Malikshah]

80. False equivalency here. Very poor argument.

Teaching about Islam and Muslim culture can deal with a wide range of issues. Most people are functionally illiterate about a huge portion of the world's population and their belief/culture.

To respond to a response to a question which is premised on a false equivalency by accusing the person of double standards is disingenuous at best, and willfully ignorant at worst.

[LeftishBrit]

108. Well, in the UK ALL major religions are studied

Children are taught about the basic themes and customs of the religions, and engage in activities celebrating Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Hindu festivals. Except in faith schools (a separate issue), they are not expected to practice any of the religions, just to learn about them. Britain is far more secular than America, and I've never heard of a child being converted to any of these religions just by learning about them. I'm an atheist myself, but religions are so important to world culture and history that it's important to know the basic themes. JMO.

[wolfgangmo]

111. Um -

I'm lost. Where did you get the information that they kids never hear about other cultures and religions? This was just about a bunch o bigots freaking out about this one incident.

So where is the link?

[barbtries]

119. i never said not any others

who you talking to?

[Codeine]

72. Absolute bullshit. You can't pick and choose

which religions "expand the children's horizon" and which do not.

[barbtries]

118. these people are not a threat.

and i would be just as supportive if they were jewish, buddhist, shinto. it is a cultural exchange. that's my take on it and you calling bullshit doesn't make it bullshit.

[Mixopterus]

130. Christian, then? Perhaps even fundamentalist Chrisian?

Either tolerance has its limits or it doesn't. If it is the case that it does, I would ask you to provide that you think those limits ought to be.

[barbtries]

137. i draw the line at proselytizing

as far as i can tell this is designed to be an educational experience. fundies of any stripe are where i draw the line. i have never met a fundamentalist christian who was capable of keeping the preach out of their conversation with me let alone with a room full of children. you're talking apples and oranges. the proposed event is not about converting the students, it is about educating them. i would draw the line if i thought the people were going into the classroom to try and convert the kids to fundamental islam. but i don't believe that is what it's about. it's about educating them about the way some other people live. to describe their holy days, their rites, why they pray the way they do. to take the fear and the mystery out of the way of life. millions and millions of people in this world are practicing muslims and they are not terrorists and not warmongers. the goal is to increase understanding and love for everyone.

[Mixopterus]

145. And what if

The hypothetical christian fundamentalist approached the issue in a scholarly way, which is what I am getting at. If you are going to treat tolerance as an innate good (it isn't, only intent can be good in of itself) you have to give equal time to all religions regardless of how you feel, perhaps even ones you passionately disagree with. I agree with the notion of tolerance as a way to prevent human suffering, but treating tolerance of religion (of all things) as a good in of itself is a stretch, and one you pay quite a price for.

[barbtries]

148. these are not fundamentalists.

i'm talking about what is going on, not a hypothetical. i already said i draw the line at proselytizing. i believe that the holocaust should be taught to schoolchildren, not that nazis should be given a forum to discuss their beliefs as if they are valid. what is your point? where do you stand?

[EndersDame]

133. When I went to school in South Texas They Invited Jewish Org to come and Talk

There were literally no Jews in my elementary school It was not until Highschool did I meet one. I think it was so that we could meet and learn about new cultures instead of being left with a hazy idea. This was also around the time of South Park and alot of the kids picked of Cartman's Jew Bashing. I even heard one girl complain that her name sounded too Jewish.

[barbtries]

138. exactly.

i think it is entirely valid and would welcome my children having an opportunity to learn. the world is big, they should know about it. that's a priceless product of a decent education.

[EndersDame]

144. I totally do not feel indoctrinated after an afternoon of learning about another culture and playing

with dreidels

[Warpy]

7. Darlin', you live in the Babble Belt

and those narrow minded bigots would freak out even if yesterday's shooting hadn't happened or had been carried out by a babble toting Southern Baptist preacher who'd gone around the bend for some reason.

Likely the speaker is well aware s/he is surrounded by bigots and won't be surprised by those signs.

Just roll your eyes and say "bless their hearts," in the southern sense and tell the kid to enjoy the speech.

[wolfgangmo]

113. Bwahahahahahahahaha. That is funny.

Southerners can say "bless their heart' in such a manner that the meaning of "you are dumb (or much worse" is evident.

I had forgotten about that.

[Hissyspit]

8. Host a "Say 'No' To Stupidity" forum.

Talk about the whacko white Christians who have shot up people.

[RamblingRose]

9. I sent an email to the principal thanking her for her leadership in teaching our students about

diversity and the importance of tolerance of other cultures and religion. I encourage anyone else in the area to do the same. I am sure she will receive a lot of complaints for having the speaker come to the school. This is a very strong republican "christian" area.

[bobbolink]

128. That's the important thing to do. You're right... she will be harrassed for doing the right thing.

[One of Many]

10. Cowards

Plain and simple

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Wouldn't the 'equal forum' be the other 364 days of the year? nt

[JonQ]

12. Seems unneccessary to have the speaker

I wouldn't expect a curriculum on the middle-ages in europe to include officials from the catholic church.

[Kalyke]

13. Huh?

There is no one alive today who lived during the Middle Ages that could speak to the atrocities; however, Islam is a current, vibrant and valid religion that few seem to understand.

I think all schools, particularly those in homogeneous areas, should have speakers of other faiths and cultures come into speak. When you expose people to other cultures of which they are not familiar, you lessen the fear and misinformation that tends to spring up as a result of this fear.

That's called Anti-Bigotry 101.

[JonQ]

21. How is it a valid religion?

Does that mean it wasn't made up like all the others? I disagree.

And christianity didn't exactly end in the middle ages, it's still around, so still a current, vibrant and valid religion that few understand.

Do you support christian missionaries going to predominately muslim and jewish schools?

[Kalyke]

39. First, I don't agree with your premise that the entirety of all religions

are made up - but we're not arguing that point.

In the poster's neighborhood, per his/her admission, most of the people are Christian. They may not understand all the nuances of Christianity, but they know what it is. They don't need to be "exposed" to it. They don't, however, know the cultural morays of Islam or Judaism or Buddhism or insert religion/culture here, which is why they need to be exposed to something other than the same-ole, same-old.

Finally, where are these Muslim and Jewish schools? If they're in the United States, I'm guessing they see Christianity on a daily basis, anyway as most Americans identify themselves as Christian. If these schools are in the Middle East and/or Israel, then... oh wait... that's right, these children are exposed to Christianity because it is the basis for Islam (although there are a few instances where it is taught incorrectly and as a pariah) and is also a fairly predominant religion in Israel.

The United States, my friend, is far behind even Middle Eastern countries when it comes to exposure of various religions and cultures.

[proteus_lives]

90. What?

"The United States, my friend, is far behind even Middle Eastern countries when it comes to exposure of various religions and cultures."

In this country we have freedom of religion. Go to Saudi Arabia and try to open a church. See what happens.

The stupidity burns.

[smalll]

107. Um, cultural "morays" ???

These are "morays" --



I think the word you're looking for, dear, is "mores."

(On edit: Also, that should be "exposure to" not "exposure of.")

[JonQ]

153. Ah, so they don't understand everything about christianity but they are aware of it

so they need no further education.

And yet they have never heard of islam at all so need to be taught about it? Unlikely that anyone has never heard of islam. They may not "understand all the nuances" but they know what it is.

And there are parts of this country dominated by muslim or jewish immigrants so that most people in a school will be muslim or jewish. Could you imagine the outrage if this same logic were applied to sending christians to go preach at those schools?

I suppose many of those schools do teach about christianity and judiasm, of course it's often stereotypical nonsense that if said about muslims would be grounds for more outrage.

"The United States, my friend, is far behind even Middle Eastern countries when it comes to exposure of various religions and cultures."

Yeah, go to saudi arabia and suggest sending christians in to muslim schools. See how that goes.

I'll watch for you on the news.

[spoony]

61. Why do you think this speaker is a "missionary"?

And yes, kids from one culture SHOULD be learning about and even, gasp, interacting with people from others.

[JonQ]

154. And you believe public school is a good place to have religious indoctrination?

Imagine if they had say the 10 commandments out front. Think anyone would have a problem with that?

And those are central to 3 of the worlds major religions, not specific to any one.


This is a major double standard on DU that needs to be addressed; christians = evil, scary bigots and superstitious morons. Muslims = enlightened, peaceful and wise.

Both are superstitious, both for the most part support bigotry. It is unfair to condemn one and praise the other.

[Malikshah]

83. Where to begin with the logical fallacies and willfully ignorant assumptions in our post?

Nah...it's not worth it to address someone who merely wishes to foment dispute and hatred through ignorance.

[JonQ]

159. I'm sorry you didn't understand my post

really I am, I try to use simple language to make it easy to interpret.

Here, I'll make it simpler. Imagine this was a school in a predominately muslim community, and they were bringing in christians to lecture them on how great christianity is. Ok, now cue the righteous outrage, here I'll get you started: separation of church and state, no religious indoctrination, RACISM!!!!!(a classic), and so on.

[Malikshah]

160. Love the hypothetical balderdash.

Imagine a school filled with pseudo-intellectuals with thinly veiled bigotry running through their veins. Cue the righteous outrage when others call them on it....

[JonQ]

163. Ok, you still aren't getting it

do you think public education funds should be used to teach religion?

[Malikshah]

164. Getting it? Oh, I get it alright-- someone who changes the argument just to

be difficult.

Nothing like a "contrarion" with a keyboard to lift my spirits.

[JonQ]

166. I'm sorry if my secular beliefs offend you

perhaps you could try a country where secularism is considered a disease and all schools are taught from a religious stance. I hear saudi arabia is beautiful this time of year.

[Better Today]

16. I agree with your premise, tolerance for and intolerance of religion is a familial issue.

I want(ed) my children to grow up having a healthy disrespect for any religion. Tolerance of the individual, but not the idea of big bad parent shaking it's ever loving finger at humans. Nor the pie in the sky, all good is good bs either. No matter the "good" some negative will come of it for someone or something along the line.

So to me any attempt to teach my children tolerance for any given religion or religion in general would annoy the crap out of me. Teaching tolerance for people of the ME wouldn't bother me at all. We are told that their societies are all based on Islam in some form or fashion, so I guess it becomes a bit of a catch-22. It can be done though, as evidenced by my children (now grown) who can appreciate and befriend locals without being swayed by the extreme Mormonism of the region and most of those locals.

[JonQ]

19. Exactly

And I've noticed a double standard on here where if christianity is involved the people should always be villified, treated as extremists and idiots. But if it's islam then we should be respectful, tolerant, and try to learn from and appreciate their culture. And I get that much of that is in response to the perceived backlash against muslims in this country following 9/11 and more recent events. But still, just because someone is being picked on doesn't mean their made up belief system is more legitimate than the made up belief system of the person doing the picking. Victimhood should evoke tolerance and support, but not necessarily agreement with everything the victim believes.

Any proposal to bring in christian or jewish leaders to share their beliefs would be met with harsh criticism here. And so should this.

Teach tolerance of all people in general terms. You don't have to like or agree with them, just tolerate their existence and never resort to violence over trivial differences between us. That doesn't mean you have to embrace and support their beliefs.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

23. She should have spoken about Mid-Eastern culture, not specifically Islam.

[Kalyke]

40. The two are very much intertwined, though.

Maybe the speaker was speaking of the culture, but one has to understand a bit of the religion to understand the culture.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

73. the article could have been biased... I agree... maybe she WAS speaking about the culture

and the newspaper reported she was speaking on a religion.

I don't know.


I just know that if she was headlined for speaking about Islam, I don't approve; I wouldn't approve about Christians, Jews, or any other religion either.

I do approve of educating our children on the differences in cultures though. I know that I was clueless about MANY things 10 years ago.

I'm still learning.. we all are.

[amandabeech]

43. It is a good idea to keep all religion out of the public schools.

There may be a Constitutional issue, as well. Our founders weren't stupid.

[MattBaggins]

27. Your view point is the very reason for doing this.

I don't want my kids being taught tolerance to Scotch-Irish or to Italians. They can teach them all about religions but I want my kids to grow up distrusting the Irish and Italians.

Why don't we just give in to every parent that wants their kids to hate certain other groups.

[JonQ]

31. I didn't realize ethnicity was the same as religion.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

75. +1

Religion is a choice.

Ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, economic class you were born in...



are not a choice.

[provis99]

146. nonsense. Jewishness is not a choice.

And Christians and Muslims are no more likely to change their religion than they are to change their nationality.

[JonQ]

152. I'd say a person is far more likely to change their religion than

their skin color or gender.

[Toucano]

84. Invalid analogy.

Officials from the Catholic Church are not experts on the middle-ages, and we wouldn't expect a representative from the middle ages to attend because they're all dead.

The analogy rightly is if the curriculum were studying the Amish, I think it would enhance the experience to have an Amish speaker appear to address the class.

Would these people still call for an equal forum for Baptists? I seriously doubt it.

[theHandpuppet]

14. Most places have laws against nailing signs to utility poles

So I would feel free to remove it. Consider it a public service.

[Obamanaut]

15. I think it is interesting that we get our knickers in a bunch if one of

christian sects wants to make a presentation in a school, or if we see the ten commandments in a courthouse, but we embrace a presentation on islamic history.

Inasmuch as allah and the christian god are based loosely on the same set of myths, why not shun them both OR have presentations so that both can be understood.

Are there presentations on the less mainstream religions? Do we have a person to speak on wiccan, or shinto, or anything else?

Why must we become familiar with the one, and not all?

"The goal is to educate students about Islam and Muslims." Is there a similar goal to educate students about _________ (fill in blank)?

[Better Today]

17. Exactly and that course should be clearly designated as Theology.

[Barack_America]

18. Our current textbooks do a pretty good job of covering Christian history.

I don't recall much mention of Islamic contributions to society or Muslim way of life.

[JonQ]

20. You know, mormons are often villified and misunderstood in our culture

perhaps they should send some representatives to our schools to discuss their beliefs and culture so that our children might learn from them and come to cherish mormon beliefs.

In many parts of the country you're less likely to have run in to a mormon than than a muslim so they are certainly underrepresented and misunderstood.

I wonder how that proposal would go over here?

Oh but that's completely different, mormons historically haven't treated women and homosexuals well, nor tolerated religious diversity within their communities so they should not be allowed to speak in schools, unlike muslims.

[mamaleah]

25. Geez...Re-read the manual.

It's all laid out clearly. If it's not Christianity, it's ok. Well, as long as it's not Judaism either. All other religions should be taught and tolerated in schools. Christianity should be mocked. Judaism never really comes up but if it does, remind students that the Jews are the cause of all ME woe.

[kctim]

24. My kids would NOT attend

that religious propaganda BS and I would do everything I could to keep others from having such nonsense forced upon them.

[CoffeeCat]

29. Learning about other religions of the world...

...is not "propaganda bs"...it's educating children about the real world.

No one is advocating that these children become Muslims. They're just educating
them on what these people believe.

If we've stopped evolving as a species--to the point where other cultures and religions are viewed
as "nonsense" then I guess ignorance, fear and stupidity rule the day.

"No Billy! You're staying home from school! I won't have you learning about the world beyond the
end of your own nose! Others who are not like us are BAD!"

How in the hell different is that attitude from what the Taliban is?

[mamaleah]

30. So you have no problem then with

Christian leaders teaching kids about Christianity?

Suuuuuuure.

[kctim]

38. Actually, I have a HUGE problem

with Christian leaders teaching kids about Christianity in school.

[mamaleah]

45. No I meant the poster who said they had no problem

with someone coming to lecture about Islam. Why is ok to teach about Islam and not Christianity?

Really, someone must have an answer. But I am certain the answer is just the standard "If it's Christianity or observant Judaism it's bad everything else is a-ok" BS.

[Toucano]

92. I would have no problem with it, and would actually encourage it.

The only way I learned about Judaism was when a bunch of kids were absent for Yom Kuppur! :)

I didn't know much about Catholicism until very late in my education either. I still don't entirely get the Amish and I lived among them for years.

Learning what the various faiths believe and practice and their histories and cultures is not the same as promoting one religion (or religion) over another.

[Codeine]

33. All religions are nonsense.

Islam is fucking stupid. Christianity is fucking stupid. Judaism is fucking stupid. It's all stupid and doesn't need to be in a school.

Grow out of superstitions.

[Kalyke]

42. Atheism is stupid, too.

It's an I'm-right-and-you-suck hateful "religion," whose sole existence seems to be passing judgment on those who don't believe exactly as you.

Sounds a lot like Fundie Christians and Wahhabi Islam and Zionist Judaism to me.

:eyes:

[Codeine]

55. You can believe whatever mythology yu'd like.

Worship whichever invisible skydaddy fills you with the most delicious fear.

Just keep that filth out of the public school system.

[spoony]

62. And it apparently makes people dislike education

and sound like teabaggers. "I ain't lettin ma kid here that Izzlam stuff!"

[Toucano]

116. "Lessin they give that ole Pat Robertson a chance to sit the fax strate!" n-t

[mitchum]

66. Despite your use of the very popular rightwing talking point...

it is NOT a "religion"
And it is NOT predicated on belief. Belief is the province of the magic woo woo people.

[spoony]

70. The right wing crap in this thread

is coming entirely from those who are terrified by kids hearing about Islam, or Christianity or any other belief system besides their own. It's fucking SCHOOL that's what is supposed to happen there.

[kctim]

68. Most of us just want to be left alone

and it has nothing in common with those extremes you mention. Why? Because passing judgement with words means nothing, while forcing beliefs with laws means ruin.

[LeftishBrit]

105. Not true.

There are haters among atheists as among other groups, but to say that 'atheism is a hateful religion' is as wrong as saying that Christianity or Judaism or Islam is 'a hateful religion'.

At any rate atheists don't think that everyone else deserves to go to hell, unlike some representatives of some other religions.

[kctim]

35. My kids do not go to school to learn religion

you can choose what religion you want taught to your kids at school if you want, but I won't. I'm an atheist, not a hypocrite.

[Codeine]

37. +1 nt

[spoony]

63. Better just homeschool them.

I mean, they might be exposed to things you personally don't like if they go to school. Like other people's beliefs. Scary, I know.

[kctim]

71. Naw, not scary at all really

seeing how I don't give a shit about what other people believe. But there is a huge difference between being 'exposed' to something and being taught something, especially if its against your will.

[Obamanaut]

64. People on this very forum get bent out of shape about bible reading

or prayer in school, or a prayer before a football game.

"This activity has no place in the school" they say. "Kids should be taught religion in their homes or churches" they whine. But these teachings are generally one of the christian sects.

BUT, now we read on this very forum that the kids should be educated, in school, concerning other religions.

Doesn't this seem somehow, well, strange? Maybe not consistent?

edited to add: If religion must be taught in schools, let it be limited to a theology class, an elective, and have it address ALL religions.

[uppityperson]

147. I agree. Learning about different religions is educating kids/people about the world

I am not saying have any fundy preacher of any religion come try to indoctrinate anyone, but teaching them about different religions seems a responsible thing to do. Teach them about all sorts of different religions and cultural things.

[harun]

32. Horrible attitude.

[Codeine]

34. Exactly.

I'd not have them attend a Christian talk at school, or a presentation on Mormonism, so why the fuck am supposed to embrace some other idiotic belief system? Religion does not belong at a public school.

[Kalyke]

47. Why?

Religion is the cause of many historical events - from the Crusades to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand to the dissecting of Palestine to form Israel to 9/11 to the murder of abortion doctors.

I think the peripheral study of religion in public schools is fine as long as it doesn't break down into a sermon or proselytizing and is focused upon how it defines cultures and attitudes.

The syllabus/announcement posted above looks like the speaker plans to do that on a seventh grade level.

[mamaleah]

48. Hmmm, you listed many negative issues.

Are you going to point out the negatives in Islam too?

Oh wait...forgot...where the hell is that PC handbook?

[Kalyke]

51. Did you not see the 9/11 event in my list?

I'm pretty sure bastardizing a religion to teach young men that terrorism is OK as long as it's driven by "their" religious beliefs qualifies as a negative.

While you've gone to get the so-called PC handbook, why don't you see if you can dust off your version of Reading Comprehension 101.

[mamaleah]

52. Yes I did miss it.

However, I think all those issues are covered in school without the help of someone coming in to lecture about their beliefs.

[Kalyke]

57. My point is that by leaving out the religious reasoning behind

those issues (or, in the case of 9/11, bastardizing all of Islam for the extremist beliefs of a few) doesn't give children all the tools necessary to form educated opinions about these events so they can prevent them from happening again (or at least try).

Heck, I think a theology class that teaches all religions would be a fantastic elective course in high school. No sermonizing, no conversions, no proselytizing - just good, healthy discussions about the origins of these regions, their impact on the cultures of the people who follow them and the role of religion in history.

I will admit, however, that I think schools that are offering the Bible as History courses are woefully lacking by including only one religion. I do agree it should be all or none.

[Mixopterus]

81. Yawn

You'll find that violence is part and parcel of the religious experience, there were even Buddhist leaders in India that conquered and murdered to spread the faith. Japanese Buddhists mucked about with Japanese peasantry, sometimes driving them to starvation, the early Jews butchered the original occupants of their holy land, Byzantine christianity waged a near genocidal war with the Sassanids, the Muslims waged a war of conquest (actually genocide as recent evidence has shown) on the Arabian peninsula in addition to massacring a great deal of whatever population they touched and invaded Europe for no reason but greed under the pretenses of spreading the faith. The last action would lead to Roman Christianity and their crusades and spark a violent and oppressive tone in Iberian Christianity up until the modern era. And then there is the multitude of small barbarities committed by the followers of polytheistic religions, Germanic and Hellenic alike. Looks to me like the whole religious experience is just an excuse to gain power and spill blood without the guilt associated with an honesty of intent and purpose.

So no, no religion in school whatsoever. None.

Ah, small tip regarding modern religions. In the west they are all (save the fundies) put through an Enlightenment filter. That is why normally aggressive and frankly, violent, religions like Islam seem OK.

[spoony]

94. First, the dismissive "yawn" is obnoxious

Second, is that myopic understanding of societies the "examination of history" you want to teach children? Sounds a lot like the filter in place is not so much the Enlightenment but your focus on a part of social history that you're intent on singling out for blame.

[Mixopterus]

99. The yawn is necessary

I tire of PC handbook types who don't know the history. Religion is a powerful tool and a force to be reckoned with, my point was that you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking the actions of the 9/11 hijackers are the actions of a radical few, as the religion as a whole has a rich and bloody history of violence. You should note that the predominately Muslim nations that seem "OK" to you are actually -Westernized- Muslim nations who put their religion and society (they are very much tied together in Islam) through an Enlightenment filter. What you are admiring is actually a modern, Western philosophical concept that serves to moderate an ancient, powerful, but ultimately violent religion. As twisted as the modern fundamentalists are, they are far closer to the medieval notion of Islam, especially post-Mongol, than you may feel comfortable admitting.

Believe me, I hold disdain for Catholicism and Protestantism (ALL religions, actually) just as much. They have their fair share of blood on their hands, and post schism Christianity and Iberian Christianity were (and still are, see modern American right wing Protestantism) intolerant and violent religions.

Religion in a world ruled by reason should be seen as an ancient and dangerous tool of unification in a more primitive time, my hope is that eventually we will overcome such things and view the abuse of religion like the abuse of government or economic institutions.

[mdmc]

126. really?

I would think that the more you know about the worlds religions, the better off you and your kids would be..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. Looks like your kids are missing out on a lot of things.

[pitohui]

28. not sure what you expect us to say -- is this public school?

there should not be speakers from ANY religious viewpoint

plenty of us would be goddamn angry if our kids had to sit in public school and listen to somebody from the southern baptist convention talk about the lives of baptists in the south or somebody from the catholic church talk about the lives of catholics in vatican city

religious stuff doesn't belong on school property

there shouldn't be a pass for "some" religions, the rules should be the same for all

admittedly the sign posters are prob. fascist/bigot/racists but there's either freedom for/from religion in the public schools or there isn't

can my priestess speak at your school and educate the kids about celtic/wiccan traditions? can my friend's shaman speak and educate the kids about native american traditions? um, nope, don't think so

[Bucky]

41. Understanding others is a threat to some peoples' life styles.

Instead of being ashamed of your community because of a couple of bonehead sign makers, try going to that meeting and see how many neighbors you can be proud of.

[mamaleah]

46. Does that include understanding all others or just the PC Flavor of the Day others?

Do others include Maronite Christians in Lebanon? Breslov Chasidim? Or just Muslims?

[Kalyke]

49. I'd have no problem with any of them speaking in a public school

as long as they focused on how religion defines their cultures and attitudes.

Excluding religion from public schools essentially keeps public school children from learning how many historical events began since there have been so many major events linked to some form of religion.

As long as no one is giving a sermon, I think religion is a valid course subject and all religions should be given exposure on some level.

[mamaleah]

53. They are all taught on a completely historical level.

And that's where it should end in a public school.

Explaining prayer times and Halal laws is as pertinent to a public school education as explaining the rosary.

[Bucky]

74. I'm a history teacher. You can bet your sweet bippy we learn about religions in school

You can't study human beings without exploring the impact of their thought systems on their behavior. Obviously I don't advocate one viewpoint over another. I take pains to hide my opinions, in fact. But I do promote understanding of all people.

Well, except for Maronite Christians... they're just gross.

[era veteran]

44. Imagine no religion

[Codeine]

54. If only, my friend. nt

[The Midway Rebel]

87. You forgot the rest of the words and quoted those incorrectly.

Taking those four words of that beautiful song and quoting them incorrectly and out of context and applying them to this thread makes the song seem an anti-religion, anti-muslim hateful rant when I know it ai'nt. I am sure John Lennon would not approve. So hear ya' go!

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[Codeine]

127. Responded to the wrong poster, tiger. nt

[era veteran]

150. And no religion too

I was paraphrasing, it is in context. Peace Richard

[frogmarch]

50. Islam is a religion, as is

Christianity. Religious teaching/indoctrination do not belong in American public schools.

quote:

"The program is designed to educate students in metro Atlanta about Islam and
Muslims’ lives." :thumbsdown:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. The Supreme Court never outlawed--and indeed encouraged--factual teaching about religion

as long as it wasn't proselytizing.

If I were teaching Japanese in a public school, I would have to teach the students something about Buddhism and Shinto, simply so they could understand the culture.

Given all the anti-Muslim bigotry that's prevalent in Talk Radio Land, it would be helpful for kids in the suburbs of Atlanta to learn that Muslims are not terrorists.

Factual information is not the same as proselytizing. I've attended two Episcopal churches now that had speakers from non-Christian religions (Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan) come in and give informative talks about their beliefs.

[Kalyke]

59. +1+1

Thank you for understanding the point of what I believe the Atlanta school was attempting to do.

[spoony]

76. +1 Human contact is the best way

for people to be REALLY educated about other cultures and traditions. Cheers to you and everyone willing to learn about and from others.

[frogmarch]

77. Factual information doesn't

need to include discussing or explaining the dogma of various religious belief systems. I'm not opposed to students learning the role and history of religion pertaining to civilization (The Christian Crusades for instance), as would be presented by historians (which I believe is what the Supreme Court is OK with too), but I am against teaching about religious beliefs in public schools.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

110. So you'd be ok with students believing false things about religions?

You'd be OK with students believing that Islam calls for the slaughter or forced conversion of all non-Muslims?

You know, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

On the one hand, you think that religion is total nonsense and no rational person would believe it.

On the other hand, you think that it's so powerful that merely hearing the descriptions of a certain religion's beliefs is going to turn schoolchildren into followers of that religion.

Anyway, the Supreme Court disagrees with you.

[frogmarch]

117. Huh? I didn't say that.

I said I'm an atheist. Period. You read the "total nonsense" stuff into it. I didn't say it. All that my stating that I'm an atheist implies is that I don't believe in gods. But infer away, if it makes you happy.

I didn't say that I myself thought that children hearing about a religion would convert them to that religion. I said that I could understand why King, a Baptist minister, would be nervous about it.

The Supreme Court disagrees with me. Got a link?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

125. You said:

"I'm not opposed to students learning the role and history of religion pertaining to civilization (The Christian Crusades for instance), as would be presented by historians (which I believe is what the Supreme Court is OK with too), but I am against teaching about religious beliefs in public schools."


Why would you be opposed to factual descriptions of what Muslims/Buddhists/Hindus/Jews/Christians/Wiccans believe if you weren't afraid that the kids would be indoctrinated?

You often need to explain what a religion believes in order to explain its role in history and culture, such as the question of why Buddhism and Shinto coexist the way they do in Japan or why the Romans exempted the Jews from the requirement to offer incense to the emperor's statue.

[RamblingRose]

79. "Gwinnett: Islam Controversy" - WSB Radio

(WSB Radio) -- A Gwinnett County church is urging its members who have seventh graders at Trickum Middle School not to let them participate in Friday's special presentation on the religion of Islam.

Richard King, youth minister at Mountain Park First Baptist, sent out an email warning of the event, asking for prayers that it not go forward, and urging parents to let their children opt out if it does.

"In middle school, those are formative years and they take a lot of things to heart that they hear and they're processing a lot of information," he tells WSB's Sandra Parrish.

King says while students are also taught about Christianity and Judaism as part of the study of Middle Eastern religions, no speakers are brought in for those as they are for the "Islam 101" presentation.

"My concern is that it was not a balanced approach and I think that someone from the Christian community and the Jewish community should have the opportunity to speak," he says.

Sloan Roach, a spokesperson for the Gwinnett County school system, says most students are already familiar with the other two religions. The presentation, which she says has been going on for seven years, includes speakers on the history of Islam, its beliefs, culture, and practices.

Roach says parents who do not want their children to participate can choose for them not to participate.


I respect the right of parents to choose not to have their child participate. However, I think posting signs stating "Say No To Islam Speaker" all over town teaches hate and intolerance. I think had it been a priest, Rabbi, mormon, etc. it would not have elicited the same response. My daughter said that almost all of the students that did not listen to the speaker did so because their preachers and parents did not want them to hear a non-christian speaker and not because they felt religion should not be in the schools. She said the speaker was very good and that she really enjoyed the speech. I will admit that I don't know anything about Islam and the culture and traditions. My daughter is already teaching me a lot, including that I am mispronouncing muslim. I am looking forward to hearing more about the speech from her.

[frogmarch]

95. I see King's point. As a Baptist youth minister,

he certainly wouldn't want any Christian children taking the teachings of Islam to heart.

I taught my kids the basic tenets of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Judaism at home, in a nonjudgmental way. My family includes members of all these religions (and a few others as well), and although my husband and I are atheists, we wanted our children to know something about the belief systems of their relatives. I would have objected if they'd been introduced to any form of religious dogma at school. It doesn't belong there. As I said in another post, I don't object to public school students learning about the impact religion has had on human civilization through the ages, but I'm vehemently against their being taught dogma specifics in public school.

[RamblingRose]

98. I understand your objection but would you put up signs around town to protest? n/t

[frogmarch]

104. No. If anyone asked my opinion on

the matter, I'd have simply replied that I didn't approve of religion being discussed with children in a public school setting.

[Toucano]

97. "...educate students...about Islam and Muslims' lives." is a far cry from teaching or indoctrination

If a world civilization student asks, "What is 'Islam'?" after she sees the word in her readings, what should be done?

Teaching about religion and teaching religion are two different things.

Being able to meet a representative who is well informed can only enhance the learning experience, and promote tolerance and understanding.

[frogmarch]

114. Yes, they are two different things.

Teaching about religion is fine, up to a point. If the speaker explains that Islam is a religion based on the teachings contained in Islam's main religious book, the Qur'an, which adherents consider to be the word of their god, Allah - as well as on the teachings of their prophet, Mohammed, fine. If a world civilization student wants to delve into the study of Islam, that's fine too, but public elementary school isn't the place for it, in my opinion.

[Toucano]

115. I thought 7th graders were junior high. Maybe it's different in different places.

No matter. I think this wouldn't offend you since it says:

"The speakers cover a variety of topics such as Islamic
history, demographics, culture, beliefs, practices and how they relate to
everyday life in America, as well as Islamic holidays and celebrations."

It seems like everything I would find in an encyclopedia article to me, but with the enhancement of being presented by a living person.

[frogmarch]

120. My mistake. Jr. High

(called Middle School where I live) is not elementary school. Regardless, Jr. High is still a public school, and religion should stay out.

The only real problem I have with the description of the topics covered in the speech is the "beliefs" topic. If the speaker is very general in talking about Islamic beliefs, I would place the "beliefs" topic in the "facts about Islam" category, which is all right. But there's a fine line separating a speech "about" Islam and a preachy one.

[Toucano]

124. Right.

There is definitely a line.

If the speaker says, "We believe (yada, yada, yada)..." that's informative.

If the speaker says, "You should join us!", that's proselytizing.

It seems like a good organization.

From their website:

ISBA’s programs are based on the following principles:

* We are educators and a bridge between Islam and Americans of other faiths
* We emphasize sustainable local outreach and building honest and long-term relationships as an effective process for understanding Islam and Muslims
* We stress face-to-face interaction, an approach that is most powerful in overcoming stereotypes and prejudices
* Our programs help promote religious understanding and facilitate interaction between public institutions and Muslim-Americans
* We work as a trusted source of information on Islam

http://www.isbatlanta.org/AboutPrinciples.aspx

[LWolf]

162. We don't "teach Islam."

We are required, in my state, to teach this:

SS.08.HS.05.03 Understand the importance of the rise of Islam and its interaction with Europe.

You can find that standard on page 8:

http://www.ode.state.or.us/teachlearn/real/standards/sbd.aspx

Just like we are required to teach SS.08.HS.05.05 Understand the major developments and societal impact of feudalism, the church, and the rise of cities in the European Middle Ages.

Both states I've taught in had similar standards.

As a matter of fact, it's hard to teach any kind of history without looking at the part that religion plays in historical events. It's also irresponsible to teach history without teaching students to recognize patterns, to recognize cause and effect relationships, and to connect the past to the present.

[Stinky The Clown]

58. Dumbfuckistan is not a place. It is a state of mind.

Georgia may have a few more of its citizens than other places, but not dramatically so.

Dumbfuckistanians, unfortunately, walk among all of us.

Don't think it is just your community. It isn't. And you're not at all alone. :hug:

[spoony]

60. Pretty stunned by the responses

I mean, what the hell? This speaker isn't there to convert people, it's to promote understanding and tolerance. People who shield their kids from others' cultures are going to raise small-minded teabaggers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. Yes, Muslim immigrants are in every major city

Americans need to get used to it and learn the truth about the wide range of practices in Islam (depending on the country, from ultraconservative Saudi Arabia to more liberal countries like Tunisia, Turkey, Bangladesh, and Indonesia) instead of depending on talk radio to spread outright lies. ("They're all part of sleeper cells meant to kill us.")

[Mixopterus]

86. The issue

Is that religion has NO PLACE in public education, kids can learn about cultures via a thorough examination of history.

[spoony]

91. Then public education will be even worse than it is now

How do you plan on examining history and culture without exposing students to religion? It's so bloody juvenile to try to protect kids by not letting them learn about things. Some of these posts sound like abstinence-only sex ed supporters.

[Mixopterus]

100. Uh

You can teach the students religion in a secular fashion, see the treatment of Hellenic religions in modern school curriculum.

Sorry, you don't need the propaganda apparatus present to teach the idea and how it fits into a historical context.

[spoony]

103. Muslim speaker = "propaganda apparatus"?

It seems you're only alright with a religion being brought up if there's no one around who believes it. And history is NOT the only area where students need to be aware of others' cultures and traditions. Current events demand that they are given access to those cultures to know enough to balance out the shrieking maniacs on cable news and radio.

[Mixopterus]

109. Strange

I achieved my low opinion of Islam via reading historical accounts and obtaining knowledge regarding the flow of events, it also helps that I have a medieval scholar as a brother. Before this intellectual journey I was actually quite tolerant in my ignorance, until "peripeteia" happened. Things were not as I thought they were, necessitating a reversal of opinion to stay intellectually consistent.

And yes, I do believe people should learn of religion and its place in history as if a myth. I'm almost certain that the myths of Jesus Christ or the warrior prophet Mohammad are just as valid as Apollo or Dionysus. There is no reason we need to treat a religion with respect, or even as if it was true. They likely are not, just as every other religion to come about has been false.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

158. Um, how do you teach about Graeco-Roman religion without

mentioning what they believed?

[The Midway Rebel]

78. Apparently, some folks have enough hate, ignorance and intolerance in their own heart....

to start an anti-religion religion all their own. After reading this thread, I too am ashamed of some of the folks in my community.

[Mixopterus]

93. Perhaps

But you must first ask yourself what the essence of tolerance is, and is it innately good? Or, is it only good when applied with reason and not as a rule?

Second, you must reconcile your desire for all religions to get equal time with your liberal, Enlightenment values. Many religions, most actually, are in direct opposition to such a system, some are even so opposed as to actively seek the destruction of enlightenment values. Do those systems deserve equal time?

[The Midway Rebel]

106. Did you even read the OP?

Here let me help you.

"The Islamic Speakers Bureau of Atlanta (ISBA) provides understanding through education and dialogue. The
program is designed to educate students in metro Atlanta about Islam and
Muslims’ lives. The speakers cover a variety of topics such as Islamic
history, demographics, culture, beliefs, practices and how they relate to
everyday life in America, as well as Islamic holidays and celebrations.
The goal is to educate students about Islam and Muslims. Through
face-to-face interaction among the speaker, students and teachers, the
presentation brings classroom readings to life."

OMG WTF the horrors of the children talking face to face with a (gasp) Muslim!

(sarcasm off)

I'd say the essence of tolerance is listening with your ears not talking with your mouth.

You, despite your pseudo-intellectual and condescending tone, apparently do not know shit about Islam. Hint: all Islam ain't the Taliban just like all Christians don't go to Westboro Baptist Church. BTW without Islam there would be no Enlightenment. Get a history book and a dictionary and look these things up before you pretend to teach to me.


I am sure the children of Atlanta get plenty of exposure to the other two major world religions so I say fuck your request for "equal time".

[Mixopterus]

112. Oh my

So the essence of tolerance is listening and not speaking? How does one then deal with the information they receive via listening? Is tolerance entirely passive?

You have also not addressed whether or not is is an innate good, being a good in of itself, or a good made so through reason.

I've also read plenty on migration period/medieval history, including the role Islam played. I assume you are talking about the influx of Byzantine scholars when the Turks took Constantinople, one of the theories regarding the origins of the European Renaissance. It's a interesting theory, but it places the origin point a little late, the commonly accepted origins were in the Italian cities about a hundred years prior. Or are you referring to the fact that Europe had to engage in overseas exploration to get past the Ottoman stranglehold on land trade? It doesn't particularly matter, as revering an origin point because it is an origin point is shallow to the extreme, and smacks of a linear assessment of history. Should I feel beholden to Adolf Hitler because he was the reason my Jewish great grandparents had to leave and therefore a necessary cause of my very existence? Seems a little silly when you work it out that way, doesn't it?

EDIT: To further illustrate the problem with that assessment of history would be the personal issue of my SO, her very existence is predicated upon the Empire of Japan and the United States going to war with one another, and arguably the United States dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan to prevent the wholesale decimation of the Japanese population. If the bombs were not dropped, the probability that her grandma would have ended up burning to death in a firebomb attack or crushed by debris rises dramatically, meaning she doesn't get to meet that enamored G.I. and go to America to have a daughter who will give birth to someone whose very existence likely depends on the dropping of atomic weapons. ALL of our existences are tied to a strict chronological order, but that doesn't mean we are beholden to those events and that we cannot criticize them.

[The Midway Rebel]

122. You can feel beholden to Hitler if you want to!

Straw man much?

Tolerance + reason = good. Perhaps you can point to where this is NOT the case in this particular issue?

Listening and tolerance = active processes that require the human traits of thinking, assessing, analyzing, empathy, sympathy, learning. This implies discussion (sometimes face to face with a Muslim). Why are you playing dumb here? Surely, Kafka would understand this.

I was not referring to either of those theories regarding Islam's influence on the Enlightenment but, they are damn good ones (that you likely just Googled). I was more referencing how Islamic scholars preserved traditional Greek philosophies, and advanced medicine, math, geography, education and art while most all of Europe was in Dark Age shitter so to speak. It is OK to disagree with those theories but good luck finding good evidence to prove them wrong. Your brother's opinions do not count for much to me unless he is published and peer reviewed.

And, despite its flaws, I will stick to my "shallow to the extreme linear assessment of history" and continue to blame it all on Cain.

[Mixopterus]

129. it's not a straw man

It's an illustration demonstrating how silly the notion is that we should hold any amount of reverence for events in the past simply because they happened. As I showed, it renders the most egregious of behaviors correct regardless of their actual ethical worth. It's not a good or even a logically coherent position to hold.

Alright, back to the issue of tolerance. You say that tolerance is not innately good, then, and therefore not a good unto itself but that we must exercise reason to obtain good from tolerance, yes? This would place it within the realm of concepts such as law and courage, yes? Does it not then follow that we must treat tolerance like law and courage and exercise our powers of reason to determine what one should do in all situations as a universal because tolerance is not an innately good universal and some work must be done to make it so? If that is true then it necessitates equal time if that is the rule to all religions, as in a blind rule of fairness, or we are in fact picking and choosing religions that we deem either palatable or worthy in some way. Is this not correct?

At any rate, tolerance is then an active process, ok. What you are saying is that tolerance is a dialogue then? We have dialogues with one another all the time, and in these dialogues some hold untruths to be true, while others, knowing their position is lie or even folly, intentionally strive to win as to gain rewards material or otherwise. Is it the dialogue itself which is so valuable, or the nature of the participants, then?

I'll also note that the dark age "shitter" attitude as well as the primitive medieval Europeans is an old and, frankly, outdated attitude in history. It's largely Victorian in origin, but that's a discussion for another thread. I'll also note that Byzantium had much of the same learning that the Islamic world did, save maybe a depth of knowledge regarding the Hellenistic philosophies.

[The Midway Rebel]

135. Dude, *TLDR.

*too long, didn't read


Jes kiddin'.

Firstly, respect does not mean the same thing as revere. Unless, you want to throw that baby out with the bath water too. Secondly, if you cannot separate in your mind the study of a religion's history, customs, holidays and people from the adherence to the tenants of and participation in that religion, no amount of dialog or study of tolerance is going to help you or anyone else of your peculiar mindset. You seem to cheer for isolationism and willful ignorance. Lastly, according to internet law, you lost this debate the instant you brought up Hitler and the Nazis.

Have a good weekend!

[Mixopterus]

136. So you would rather not carry on the conversation?

I honestly want to get down to the root of what this all means, we were going somewhere!

I'm ethnically Jewish, that is why I brought up the Hitler/Nazi example as a colorful example of the logical absurdity of it. I don't think Godwin's law applies to a philosophical discussion about chronological events and historical analysis, but more to ad hominem attacks labeling the opposition a Nazi when they are not.

Please, let us not shy away from discovery when we are at the brink of it, what is the essence of tolerance?

[The Midway Rebel]

140. In this case, the essence of tolerance would be results as exhibited

in posts #133, #131 and #134.

[Mixopterus]

143. But

That's kind of a tautology, you are saying that "these examples of tolerance are what tolerance is"

I'm asking you when the essence of it is, is it innately good or determined by reason. You suggested the latter, but do we give time to all religions out of general fairness or are there some kind of criteria we use via reason to select what we tolerate?

[The Midway Rebel]

149. Let's have it your two reasoned ways for a metaphorical moment.

Option one, all religions get a seminar. Bring the Jews, the Baptists, the Buddhist, the Zoroaster dudes, the pantheist, atheist--every stripe and color gets a shot at the young seventh grade minds at Trickum Middle School in suburban north Atlanta, GA. The problem is that this proposal is unrealistic, unreasonable, in fact quite impossible due to space, time, travel constraints (at the least). Not to mention they aren't likely studying EVERY established religion. Likely, they are studying the main ones that they know little about and those that are likely to impact their future if not certainly their present.

Option two, fuck it. If everybody don't get a shot to speak, than by gawd, nobody gets a shot. Everybody stay home, don't nobody talk to no one else. This proposal is very possible to do but it only benefits those with some agenda to thwart peace and understanding between all humans. In fact, this proposal is likely a bad idea.

Now, let's have it the way it likely happened. The guy came and spoke and people learned and are thus more tolerant, reasonable and understanding of other cultures and religions. We now have better educated citizens of the world.

What is the problem that you have with that occurence? Oh wait...earlier in the thread you said this: "I achieved my low opinion of Islam via reading historical accounts and obtaining knowledge regarding the flow of events, it also helps that I have a medieval scholar as a brother."

So, never mind -- I think I see your problem. Perhaps, in your quest for equal time, you can convince the seventh graders at Trickum to allow you or your scholar brother to give a seminar on how Islam sucks. In this case, and considering your opinion of Islam, I doubt that the "criteria we use via reason to select what we tolerate" will allow you to speak a feakin' word at that school.

[Mixopterus]

157. And you still have not answered my question

I can acknowledge my limitations of knowledge, can you? Perhaps you do not understand what tolerance is as much as you think you do.

By the way, the scenario you gave was a false dilemma. We already learn about religions in a secular manner while studying history, we don't need religious figures telling us their biased account.

I look forward to talking to you again in the future about the nature of tolerance, hopefully we can make more progress in the future than we have today.

[Shagbark Hickory]

85. Got a couple of sign code violations there. Call code enforcement.

& Howdy neighbor, btw.

[The Midway Rebel]

141. Yes, call code enforcement. It is illegal and in fact, probably quite legal to...

rip that hideous turd ball down.

[RamblingRose]

96. Building Bridges Award

Columnist award with “Building Bridges Award”

ATLANTA, GA–Columnist Sally Satterthwaite was honored by the Islamic Speakers Bureau (ISB) for promoting inter-religious and multi-ethnic dialogue in Georgia. The ISB is one of the largest Muslim organization in Atlanta.

Dr. Carlos Cardoza-Orlandi of Columbia Theological Seminary, Trickum Middle School also received the award. Both Satterthwaite and Cardoza-Orlandi are being recognized for their active roles in breaking stereotypes and improving relations among Georgia’s ethnic and religious communities.

“This event is a great opportunity to give due respect and honor to those who, everyday, try to strengthen the diverse fabric of our society through education and understanding,” says Soumaya Khalifa, ISB Executive Director.

ISB is an apolitical, non-partisan educational organization and a local affiliate of ING (Islamic Networks Group), the leading outreach institution providing education about Islam and Muslim culture since 1993, with affiliates both nationally and in England.

[marshall]

102. You can at least be proud that somebody has the freedom to post a sign like that

In some countries making such a public statement would get you thrown in jail, or worse.

[The Midway Rebel]

123. Ummm yeah, those signs make me real proud to be an American. NOT!

It makes me ashamed that plenty of Americans are proud of the right to be FEARFUL, STUPID, INTOLERANT, ASSHOLES!

[marshall]

139. My point is to be proud of the FREEDOM, not the content of the sign

But I'm a glass is half full type of person.

[The Midway Rebel]

142. In many cities, signs like that are against ordinances.

So, freedom to be a litter bug ain't much to bust a button over.

[marshall]

151. Again, I'm not talking about the sign, I'm talking about freedom to express an IDEA

It's not tangible.

The thing to do is to educate the neighborhood about the positive aspects of Islamic culture and religion. CAIR among others was extremely quick to act, decrying the act at Ft. Hood as senseless and immoral. Sadly they live with the reality of opinions like what this sign expresses, and the best thing that can help that situation is information.

[Iris]

121. .

[elshiva]

131. I think public schools SHOULD be allowed to address Islam.

I grew up in public schools and we talked about Hannukah and Kwanzaa, for instance. It was good to hear so real facts instead of "Jews eat Christian babies" and bullshit about African-Americans secretly cannabalizing white kids. Let's hear the truth and not hate spew. It's damage control.

[EndersDame]

134. Everybody Who is Against This; Would You Also Be Against This?

I grew up in South Texas (my mom said it was stuck in the early 1960s) in the Rio Grande Valley just north of Mexico.The area is not that racially diverse. Mostly Hispanic with a large Anglo minority. I did not encounter a black student until 8th grade. So when SouthPark came out every one decided that Cartman's Jew bashing was so frickin cool. I even heard one class mate complain that her name sounded too Jewish and she hated it. My school decided to invite a Jewish Organization to come all the way from Corpus Christie to speak so we would learn about different cultures and not be stuck with some hazy idea. I do not feel indoctrinated because we learned about a different culture and played with dreidels for an afternoon

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

161. I had numerous parent complaints

last month because my 7th graders were reading from their history books about the rise and spread of Islam.

State standards say we teach it.

In this little rural fundie area, not a year goes by that we don't get phone calls.

[Xenotime]

165. So sad. People look for any opportunity to be racist.