In hoc signo vinces, Allahu Akbar, the Battle of Lepanto and God

[rug]

God did not command Constantine to kill Maxentius in his name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Milvian_Bridge

Saint Michael, Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret did not command Joan to kill Englishmen for the sake of the Dauphin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

Mary did not command the Holy League to drown Ottomans in the Mediterranean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_(1571)

Allah did not command Major Hasan to shoot 43 people.

A God that commands killing is not a God at all. A religion that praises killing is not a religion at all.

It is time for believers to repudiate bloodmongers.

It is time for nonbelievers and believers both to repudiate the nationalism, racism and imperialism that has infested all religions for centuries.

This is not about God or religion. It is all about the politics and economics that hide behind religion and divide people into arguing over bullshit.

[Dreamer Tatum]

1. Which of those deals with events within the last 400 years? nt

[rug]

2. Here's another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty_Years_War

It's been going on since people could speak. When will it become clear that politics and economics use every form of human endeavor, including religion, to make gains?

[DemBones DemBones]

5. Yes, in 1618-1648!!! VERY close to four hundred years ago.

Three hundred and sixty-one years ago, to be specific.

Come on, rug, this is silly.

[rug]

10. Religion continues to be used for violence and wars.

As is race, patriotism, and oil. The point is, religious wars and religious violence are not really about religion at all.

[hvn_nbr_2]

25. Kill a Commie for Christ.

Kill a commie/slope/dink/hate-term-of-your-choice for Christ.

[Ozymanithrax]

3. If people believe God ordered to kill in his/her/its name, then that is reality.

It has been the reality for a very long time, and will continue to be the reality as long as our species are capable of religion and violence.

People should assume that either God doesn't exist, or God/Gods suffers from multiple personality syndrome and can love you and murder you without a whiff of cognitive dissonance.

[rug]

8. People are ordered - or volunteer - to kill for their country far more often.

To treat these cases as an opportunity to attack or blame religion ignores the reality that these wars are fought for political, economic and class reasons. Religion is simply a gloss.

The answer to political and economic violence is not atheist snark.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. "Gott Mit Uns" (God is with us) was inscribed on the belt buckles of the Wehrmacht in WWI and WWII.

[DemBones DemBones]

6. But Hitler was really into the occult, only

purported to be Christian to win favor with the people, like some recent presidents I could name.

In WWI, the Kaiser may have been a believer, I don't recall, but I'd guess it was mostly to win the favor of the German people.

[juno jones]

7. But medieval christianity and its defamation of jews

set the stage for the holocaust, which was the modern version of the 12th century pogrom. The Nazis and Hitler might not have been x-tian (they were more properly said to be following some aryan nordic wanna-be throwback paganism which had racial purity as one of it's tenets, one or two were occultists and this has been conflated to all of them) most of their populations were still culturally christian and welcomed the return of the pogrom. Having churchmen like the pope turn a blind eye to the situation gave the tacit agreement of major x-tian leaders.

[rug]

11. Exactly right. But no one can credibly claim they were religious wars.

[chaplainM]

9. Well duh.

Tinkerbell, Fred Flintstone, and the Flying Nun didn't command anyone to slaughter, either.

[Taverner]

12. Invisible Friends say whatever the person thinks they say

So I think the real problem here is invisible friends that many of us never grew out of...

I don't mean to trivialize this, but whether its St Catherine talking to Joan of Arc, or Allah telling the Ft Hood Killer to kill infidels - the problem is still the same.

And the fact that most religions promote this kind of insanity as a "gift of faith" is dangerous

Its about time we as a species ditch the "invisible friends" for reality

[rug]

14. The problem with that analysis is it ignores the reality behind these conflicts.

Be my guest, trash religion all you want, but you will be ignoring the real reasons these wars were fought. And it ain't religion.

[Taverner]

16. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand there is always a subtext beyond this shit

Why do you think Religions are so eager to promote talking to your invisible friend on a daily basis?

It keeps the sheep from thinking rationally

[rug]

17. I see. People who pray are irrational.

Sorry, that's an intellectual dead end.

[Taverner]

18. Yes - yes they are

Think about it for a second - these people really believe they are talking to Jesus/Mary/Allah/Saint Quack! They aren't doing it out of respect, or just going through the motions for traditions' sake - but they HONESTLY THINK THERE IS SOME INVISIBLE GUY OR GIRL IN THE ROOM LISTENING TO THEM.

If that's not irrational, I don't know what is

[rug]

19. Oh ffs, just read some William James.

Here's the pdf.

http://www.pinkmonkey.com/dl/library1/book1126.pdf

[Taverner]

20. Man you are doing serious backflips to protect Religion

What gives?

They really don't deserve any more respect than the practice of throwing virgins into volcanoes...

[rug]

21. I'm more interested in protecting political reality.

[Taverner]

22. William James' rejection of Evidencialism was his biggest flaw

Without evidence you have nothing and if it cannot be quantified, then it does not exist.

Thing is I don't propose any sort of purge of the believer. I just think irrationality has to be discouraged in schools. And yes, I think we should close every religious private school and ban homeschooling.

[anonymous171]

13. If we did that, the elites would start supporting atheism.

Which wouldn't be that bad, now that I think about it.

[rug]

15. Think that through.

[UTUSN]

23. Religion is humanity's first invention and will be its ultimate downfall. "God" (who?!1) has nothing

to do with it.

[anonymous171]

24. You are right. Greed and hate are nothing compared to the power of religion

Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and the countless other delusions will be the death of us all.