When soldiers ask to leave the Army, maybe the Army should let them leave

[FarCenter]

Apparently the "all volunteer" Army is still wedded to the concepts of involuntary servitude from the days of the draft.

[SammyWinstonJack]

1. K&R

[TwilightGardener]

2. How would you keep an army during war time, then? They'd all leave.

You have enlistments and commissions--committments that you either choose to renew or not. It's a big deal to take the oath of enlistment, or to receive a commission, and not something that can be broken without proof of extenuating circumstances. This man was obviously a poor fit for the Army, but they'd invested shitloads of money into his education, and needed him. His fellow officers should have reported the alarming behavior they witnessed to superiors.

[FarCenter]

4. Isn't there an abundance of volunteers eager to go wage war against the terrorists?

If not, maybe we shouldn't.

[Echo In Light]

10. True, that

[TwilightGardener]

14. Whenever there aren't enough volunteers, there's a draft. So be grateful

that there's enough volunteers to subject themselves to the whims of Uncle Sam, right or wrong. I am. I don't want my sons drafted.

[Echo In Light]

19. The establishment learned the draft only brings antiwar resistance to the forefront

... and for those interests, that = bad news because then they lose their primary weapon for thought control in 'democratic' society: winning hearts & minds. No surprise how we've seen the incredible growth of private mercenary outfits like Blackwater.

[TwilightGardener]

23. I agree--a draft may very well have prevented Iraq. I don't think it would

have prevented the start of Afghanistan--wouldn't have been necessary, at the beginning--the military had tons of young volunteers ready to go out and kill the terrorists or Muslims or whatever.

[Romulox]

49. A-fucking-men. nt

[Democracyinkind]

6. By only fighting wars that the people really do support?

But you do have a point that is undeniable. Now maybe if those wars weren't the illegal, inhuman quagmires that they are I would be able to fully agree with you. With things as they are, I can only admire any person leaving the army (that is without killing anyone of course)....

[Hepburn]

21. Well, that does solve the problem of how to end war. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

25. Yeah, but which war? Not all are unnecessary.

[FarCenter]

45. If a war is necessary, there will be volunteers to go fight

[TwilightGardener]

53. WW2 had a peacetime draft, if I remember that right.

I consider that war as having been necessary. Some others, not so much.

[Hepburn]

48. See Reply 45 below. n/t

[Fire1]

57. It was reported that this guy was just fine until learning of his

impending deployment and a low performance evaluation. Also reported, he had been asking for separation since last year. With all this it's really hard to determine what he was thinking.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FarCenter]

7. People do walk away from mortgages and car leases

Especially in the non-recourse mortgage states of CA, AZ, NV and FL, people just mail the keys to the bank and walk away. The bank has to get its money back by selling the house.

People also walk away from car leases. The repo man eventually comes for the car.

We don't force mortgagees and borrowers to risk their lives against their will.

[TwilightGardener]

15. Nobody forced these guys to do anything--they are volunteers.

Hasan wanted a free, Army-paid, expensive education--he ended up not wanting to pay the price for that, which was deployment.

[Hepburn]

24. In reading some of the articles, he volunteered to pay back the costs of his education.

So, IMO, it is not like he was looking for a free-bee medical degree.

JMHO

[TwilightGardener]

29. Yes, but the catch is, they also needed his services, desperately.

What SHOULD have happened is that his fellow officers, the ones who made remarks to the press about his anti-US comments and his difficulties and anger in coping with harrassment, should have reported their observations to superiors, and he should have been given a mental-health assessment.

[Hepburn]

47. I agree that he needed help and the Army should have known this.

Just swept it under the rug...and look at the horrible results.

[booley]

56. well no one forced them to sign up

They might not have been all that honest when convincing the person to sign up, but it is true no one held a gun to anybody's head.

Though once one signs up then yeah, they get forced to do stuff.

And that "free Army (or Navy or Marine) paid expensive education" is always what they advertise.

Certainly wasn't for me. Since I was in the Navy and I already had my basic course before signing up, I had to wait until after I left to go back to school. I got a GI Bill but that only paid a small fraction of my college bills after I got out.

[TwilightGardener]

58. They did improve the GI Bill greatly last year--my husband is going

to transfer the benefits to my kids. It wasn't much, though, when he joined up--kinda skunky, as you found out.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sirveri]

37. Just because you sign up doesn't mean you understand the terms.

It also doesn't stop the recruiters from misrepresenting the service. I for one was not prepared for the massive ammounts of discrimination and border line hazing that I suffered while I was in the service. I also thought that the work hours wouldn't be abusive and completly based in 19th century work laws.

[TwilightGardener]

38. In this case, Hasan joined up to go through the military's medical school.

There's no way he didn't have the intellect to understand what he was doing, or what was required of him in exchange for a free medical degree.

[Sirveri]

78. I disagree, mainly because of the level of harasment.

It's not something that one would expect. The current military has major issues with espirit de corps, the average person arriving in such a position could not be assumed to anticipate the ammount of harassment they would recieve. The average person would expect that everyone would band together in order to accomplish the mission, but sadly in today's military climate this is not the case. It is marred by divisive incidents which serve only to drive away otherwise qualified applicants. I'm not sure where this group think punitive mentality arises from, but it has a delitirious effect on manpower retention. In my own case it was weight issues, however instead of attempting to help me overcome those issues I was instead targeted for harrassment. This incident definately strikes a cord with me when they mentioned his harasment over being a muslim.

[izquierdista]

13. Your friend Sarah left

And good riddance to her. She may yap, but she'll never hold office again.

[Winterblues]

46. People renegotiate contracts all the time

Why should people in the military be denied that same right?

[TwilightGardener]

54. They can breach it. But there are consequences.

[Romulox]

51. Er, ummmm...one can always breach a contract...

the consequence of doing so is not prison or your life.

[Ignis]

76. Maybe you should read up on the stop-loss policy. (nt)

[JonQ]

5. Volunteering for particular terms

then being held to those terms is not the same as involuntary servitude or the draft.

[FarCenter]

9. So giving guns and ammo to someone "held to those terms" is a good idea?

[JonQ]

33. Yes

I think you're overreacting to a very rare occurrence.

You wouldn't say we should do away with compulsory education because some students shoot up their classrooms would you?

And that is in fact against their will with no chance to volunteer.

[Jennicut]

8. If they show signs of being mentally ill, we should.

But, as in the VA tech murders, everyone seems to miss the warning signs.

[ShortnFiery]

31. It makes me shudder in horror at the disarray of the Mental Health System within

our Military Forces if they could NOT identify *a psychiatrist* as high risk for either suicide or violence. :scared:

I don't understand why this guy, if strung out, did not merely end his own life. Perhaps that's why they call it mental illness - it doesn't make sense.

[Jennicut]

36. I suffer from PMDD...and got undiagnosed for my entire teenage years until the age of 23.

That was 11 years of hell. PMDD is Premenstrual dysphoric disorder. I literally had suicidal thoughts right before my period. I have been on Zoloft, Prozac and Lexapro for it. The antidepressants make it better but not all the way. Health care sucks in this country but mental health care is horrifyingly terrible. The doctor I went to a few years ago recommended Lexapro and later I found out it was a deal with the drug maker and the Dr.'s office to promote Lexapro. Now I am stuck on a drug that gives me brain zaps, dizziness, and nausea if I don't take it for two days. Coming down off of it is just something I don't want to think about.
I have no doubt this man was mentally ill and the military ignored it out of a need for Dr.'s dealing with PTSD and because he owed the military for his medical degree. No one pays attention to mental illness in the US and to add to it, things go undiagnosed and then big pharma interferes and offers drugs that add to people's pain. I want to be drug free someday but the PMDD also scares me.

[FarCenter]

44. They probably recognized the problem at Walter Reed -- and transferred him out

A standard ploy for dealing with a "difficult" employee is to transfer him to another manager.

Never rely on the sending manager's glowing recommendations.

[Greyhound]

73. The military exits to kill people and destroy their ability to resist, so how do you

spot 'bad' crazy?

[TorchTheWitch]

11. how does that work?

You sign up for your free education and when expected to do something or go somewhere you don't want to you get to say no thanks? That's ridiculous.

[FarCenter]

12. We should not sign up soldiers who are primarily motivated by mercenary benefits

[TwilightGardener]

17. LOL. That's probably half the men and women in the military.

Medical benefits, secure employment, education assistance, training for another career--these are the reasons my husband joined up.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FarCenter]

26. When you offer several years education in return for a several year committment it's pretty clear

The recruit is offered a medical education in return for a multi-year committment.

So it is structured around the medical career benefit to the recruit.

[GreenPartyVoter]

63. I think if healthcare and higher education were publicly funded, you would see a significant

drop in people signing up. If you can get your health care and education needs met in other ways, I think the military would be whittled down to those who really want to serve for the sake of serving rather than people taking a gamble on getting health coverage and education while risking being sent off to war.

[JonQ]

34. The way to ensure that

is to cut benefits.

No pay, medical, education, retirement etc.

That's a good way to destroy a military in a hurry.

[SoCalDem]

20. They are signing a contract, even if they enter voluntarily

and their service exit, can affect them the rest of their lives.. If Subway fired you or you just quit showing up for work, it wouldn't dog you for the rest of your life, like a "bad" end to military service.

Hasan got a free medical degree with a masters and a pretty cushy job for many years.. after 9-11, he "changed" his allegiance, and could not get out "scot-free" as he wanted to. Even if he repaid the money (which they refused), he could not have escaped the taint of the way he would have left..

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. What if they gave a war and nobody came? I like it. k&r

[NYC_SKP]

27. The Sick and Crazy thing is that if you are there to serve the country honorably, but are gay...

...they have no problem dismissing you.

:shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

28. Especially someone in The Medical Corps who won't contribute to the combat forces.

I don't understand why this man could not continue serving Stateside. Medical officer, IMO, from past experience SUCK at target shooting when qualifying with their handguns. There's a reason for that - many folks from the medical field, if not outright pacifists, are not gung-ho about gun ownership.

I realize that I'm stereotyping but Medical staff serve to SAVE LIVES. That's much different from the Combat MOSs that serve. :shrug:

[optimator]

30. all soldiers should have the choice to refuse iraq/afghanistan

since neither of these "wars" are to protect the united states

[ShortnFiery]

32. Especially SUPPORT troops whose specialties serve NO function in combat. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

35. This man's specialty most certainly supported those in combat.

He wasn't in the Army to hand out towels at the fitness center.

[ShortnFiery]

59. Yes, but he could work to assist those suffering from PTSD stateside. He's SUPPORT not COMBAT.

[TwilightGardener]

60. He's combat support. They need him to get those kids fixed and send them back out.

[ShortnFiery]

65. He's a PSYCHIATRIST, a man who treats those soldiers seriously screwed up.

The one's who need psychotropic medication. It's the PSYCHOLOGISTS who are needed "on site" in Afghanistan and Iraq to "patch up" hurt feelings and neuroses.

Nope, there is no DEMAND for highly trained/specialized medical Psychiatrists unless you merely wish to hop clinically depressed people up on SSRIs and send them back out. That makes no sense.

People who have "coping difficulties" normally go to credentialed Social Workers with masters degrees and/or PhD. level Psychologists.

I worked for mental health within DOD. Counseled soldiers who abused alcohol within an Infantry Battalion. We NEVER saw Psychiatrists out in the field. They were always planted within the major hospitals and treated the severely mentally ill.

[TwilightGardener]

67. Assuming your distinction is correct, maybe they needed him to

command a mental health clinic, prescribe meds, deal with the worst cases...I agree with you that he should have been left stateside, or better yet released from service because of mental-health issues, but I can't blame the Army for deploying personnel where they are presumably needed.

[ShortnFiery]

70. No, and I don't either. However, there are many "quiet" people suffering in silence.

Not unlike the Virginia Tech shooter, this guy is a loner and the dysfunctional signs are everywhere IF ONE is paying attention.

I know that "the needs of the service" comes first, but especially with people who have FEW FRIENDS and tend to isolate themselves ... well, we need a way to reach out to them.

It's always dangerous to stereotype, but far too often the person who lashes out and kills his co-workers is the "freak" and "loner."

That's why I encourage my daughter in high school NOT to make fun of those who are "different" ... it's a cruel world but even "odd ducks" should know that someone, somewhere ... some entity cares for them. Perhaps then they will not de-compensate and do such horrific acts? :shrug:

[Romulox]

52. Don't agree on that. If it's too dangerous for support troops, it's too dangerous for all of them.

[ShortnFiery]

62. Well, I can concur up to a point. However, when we're talking about medical personnel

there should be a mechanism for them to serve stateside. Many of these folks are NOT the type who would support war in general, much less a senseless occupation. If I were still on active duty, I would promptly resign my commission.

It's a tragedy that he could not get help from someone else. The Virginia Tech shooter was also a loner. We should not let these private people fall through the cracks. We could have prevented both tragedies IF they would have received HELP, mandatory or otherwise.

Further, there should be a mechanism where soldiers who don't condone "an occupation" may serve stateside ... it's not like Congress has declared War? :shrug:

[951-Riverside]

39. He could have left on his own if he wanted to.

If he only told the Army that he wanted to do what he did instead of actually doing it they would have relieved him and likely had him mentally evaluated. He probably wouldn't have spent any jail time.

or he could have ran around the base with his pants down.

[TwilightGardener]

41. That's a real shame, that he didn't talk to his fellow shrinks and tell them his

disturbing inner thoughts. They would have flagged him as unfit to deploy, and maybe unfit to serve.

[Lost-in-FL]

40. A draft would take care of the situation as soldiers would not have 5 tours of duty.

And the likeliness of wars of choice would lessen considerably.

It is unfair to place the burden on a few.

[MH1]

43. +1

but be prepared to duck. Got your flamesuit on?

[tekisui]

50. The burden is not only on the few, but largely on the poor.

[Lost-in-FL]

71. Yup. Unfortunately a few will buy their way out like Cheney and co. nt

[Critters2]

42. Maybe we should stop using violence to solve problems,

nationally and individually.

It doesn't seem to work.

[Pavulon]

55. If everyone respected please, no blood would be shed.

Until then, violence is an extension of diplomacy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

61. If he'd only claimed he was gay... nt

[TwilightGardener]

64. I wonder what that might have cost him in terms of his religion.

(I'd actually thought of that too).

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. Generally, lying is considered a lesser sin than killing.

I'm surprised more don't do it - it's as if they're afraid they'll be asked to prove it.

[TwilightGardener]

69. Right, but what would declaring himself a homosexual do to his standing

in the Muslim community, is what I was wondering.

[DemBones DemBones]

66. The Army paid his way through med school,

for which he had agreed to serve a certain number of years as an Army doctor. It's a good deal for people who want to go to med school. Military doctors are well-paid and are commissioned officers, which means they get the best base housing, access to the officers' club, good benefits, other perks. I have a couple of friends who've gone this route and one was lucky enough to be stationed in Japan for two years.

Nidal Hasan had only served one year at Walter Reed after becoming an M.D., plus whatever time he'd spent at Ft. Hood, so he was a few years from finishing his commitment, after which he could have gone into private practice with no med school debts hanging over him.

Before he went to med school, he had served as an Army enlisted man for several years after college so he surely understood the contract that's made when you join the military and the one that's made when the military puts you through med school. Future doctors aren't required to go to the military med school, my friends didn't, but Hasan did, so he had several more years' experience in a military setting, then practiced at a military hospital (Walter Reed.)

If we allowed people to simply walk away from the military whenever they felt like it, we'd undermine our military, which we do need for defense. Not many people want to go to war but when you enlist, you have to realize you might have to, even if there is no war going on when you enlist. There are a lot of National Guardsmen who signed up to be weekend warriors and make some extra cash, wound up having to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, and they're not even regular military, are mostly earning far less than Hasan, a major. Still, they should have realized when they signed up that they could be called up to fight in a war.

[stray cat]

72. First I want to be paid back the 500,000 we spent on his medical degree

[ShortnFiery]

74. According to his Aunt, he was offering to make arrangements to do just that.

:shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. or maybe they ought to screen prospects better.

[roody]

77. Then we could end war.

[bridgit]

79. I want the army with the condos dammit!

I knew I should have volunteered for four star general :(

[DavidDvorkin]

80. Marching up and down the square

A Monty Python classic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780