Allahu Akbar means "God is great".

[Barack_America]

or "God is greatest".

It is an exclamation of praise, joy and also a call for God's help. It is a part of Muslim prayers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takbir

Would our culture fault someone for saying, "God help me!" before committing a crime? (though we would certainly fault the crime itself) We would take it to mean the criminal was either doing something he did not want to do, yet felt compelled to, or that he was doing something he did not expect to survive. No?


There should be no "shit, shit, shit" reaction to a Muslim man having said this. The expression does not mean, "Jihad time". It means the man is calling for God's help and, of course, Muslims and Christian basically share the same concept of who "God" is.

Really, the only thing of interest in Major Hasan saying, "Allahu Akbar", is that it would have been so rational for him to have done so. It may suggest he felt his impending actions would require God's help or, perhaps, God's forgiveness. That could give insight towards his state of mind, and sanity, at the time of the attack.

[Dreamer Tatum]

1. It's a shame he wasn't a Christian

because if he were screaming "PRAISE JESUS" with every shot, there'd be significantly less ambivalence here about his meaning and intent.

[Barack_America]

5. I think it's a shame we know so little about Muslim culture.

That our collective response to the friction between our two cultures is "kill them", rather than a desire to learn more about the conflict itself.

(I'm not speaking of you specifically, of course)

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Desertrose]

35. and thus nothing will ever change. n/t

[JonQ]

64. Sure it will

this guy won't be hurting anyone again, that's a positive change.

You can't reason with insane people.

Tell you what though, if some nutjob starts shooting up the place near where you live, why don't you walk up to him and try to find out why he's so angry?

[DemBones DemBones]

80. It will if Islam evolves into a modern religion that

does not preach violence against "infidels."

Islam does not mean "peace," it means "submission" and that includes the submission of "infidels" like us to the will of Muslims.

They're not content to believe that "Allah is the true god and Muhammad is his prophet", they insist that everyone else believe it or die. What other religion says "Believe this or we'll kill you"?

Read the Koran.

[brooklynite]

93. Because "modern" religions don't allow conflict?

I seem to recall that religious Christians in Northern Ireland were shooting and bombing each other until a few years ago?

Don't get me wrong; I think Islam needs to move into the 20th century in any number of ways, if for no other reason than to acknowledge the fundamental rights of all of its adherents. But modernizing Islam, or any other religion isn't going to change the fact that the religious adherent believes his/her theological view of the universe is correct, and by necessity, everyone else's is wrong.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

164. The troubles in the 6 counties was not a religous issue

It was political and social discrimination over decades veiled in religion. Neither church supported the violence.

[Starry Messenger]

39. Isn't he American?

:wtf:

[JonQ]

66. Yes

he still killed americans, my statement was correct.

If he started shooting up say taliban leaders, well I think we could let that slide.

[DemBones DemBones]

43. Have you read the Koran?

Muhammad taught that Islam was to be spread by violence if preaching didn't convert the "infidels."

Jesus taught that His teachings were to be spread by preaching only. Those Christians who have used violence to convert people, like the Spanish conquistadors of the "New World," were wrong to do so, misinterpreting what Jesus taught. Muslims who use violence are not misinterpreting what Muhammad taught.

I understand that Muslims may sincerely believe they must save our "infidel" souls or kill us, as did the Spanish conquistadors, but let's face facts: Muslims want to take over the world just as much as the Spanish did. This isn't only about saving souls. Greed plays a large part.

Islam also allows the slaughter of women and girls to avenge the "honor" of their husbands, fathers, brothers, sons. A woman who is raped may be killed to avenge her male relatives' "honor." This is totally immoral and unacceptable in the modern world.

To be a "moderate Muslim" is to have rejected much of the Koran.

Edit: correct HTML code

[Barack_America]

46. Well, that certainly explains the Crusades and the Inquisition.

:eyes:

Have you read the Quran? Can you quote me the passages you refer to? How do you know it is not a misinterpretation? Or, better yet, have you personally known people who practice its teachings? From the way you speak of Muslims, I'm going to guess "no". Truth is, both Christianity and Islam have historic associations with violence, so why the statement that one is good and the other violent?

[JonQ]

67. "Truth is, both Christianity and Islam have historic associations with violence"

And yet it is only acceptable to portray christianity as a violent religion on this forum. Islam is a religion of peace that we simply don't understand.

[DemBones DemBones]

72. The Crusades were fought to regain land Muslims had taken from Christians,

which is the reason many wars are fought.

The Inquisition was an examination of heresies within Christianity and an attempt to correct those heresies. Most people who were investigated were not killed. In England, during the long reign of Elizabeth I, Catholicism was forbidden and Catholics were killed simply for being Catholic. Historians now say more Catholics were killed under Elizabeth than by the Spanish Inquisition, Spain being where most people who were killed met their deaths.

I have read the Koran and I could quote you passages but you wouldn't trust me so why don't you do your homework yourself?

The past of any religion is not relevant to our world today. Historically, all religions and all peoples have engaged in violence, including Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs.

Today, Christianity teaches that violence is not acceptable. That is good.

Today, Islam does teach that violence is acceptable, even desirable. That is bad.


If Islam evolves into a religion that teaches that violence is not acceptable, then, and only then, will it be good.

[Barack_America]

83. Islam of today preaches violence no more so than does Christianity of today.

You just overlook the Tiller murderers of Christianity as being non-representative and elevate Hamas and their ilk as being representative.

That is your bias, but it is not accurate.

[JonQ]

91. I think there are a few more muslim terrorists

than christian. Both proportionally and in total numbers.

[Barack_America]

95. Depends how you define "terrorist". What about Blackwater?

They've been noted to kill Muslims for sport because they're Muslims. Does the protection of the US military make them not terrorists?

[JonQ]

159. When they start screaming "praise jesus" before killing

after citing online their beliefs that christians have a duty to rise up against muslims (as this guy has) then we'll talk.

[Hissyspit]

178. They have their own version. Blackwater was started and is run by a Christian extremist.

[leftynyc]

119. This site went after

Dr. Tiller's murderer's Christianity quite a bit. But Islam gets a pass, yet again.

[Barack_America]

121. If it is proven Major Hasan did this for Islam, I will not give that a pass.

But I refuse to assume that he did it for Islam simply because he is Muslim and may have uttered a common Arabic phrase.

[leftynyc]

131. A common Arabic phrase

that extremists use just before commiting a murder. Let's not forget that.

[Barack_America]

132. And that Muslims utter every time they pray.

Let's not forget that either.

[leftynyc]

140. That's great

Do you think this man was praying?

[Barack_America]

141. No. I think he was calling out to God. I don't know why he was doing so.

Nobody at the moment does, except for him.

[leftynyc]

154. Calling out for G-d just

as he's commiting mass murder? Interesting.

[JonQ]

153. Was there ever a second of doubt

about the motivation in the tiller murder?

Innocent until proven christian it seems.

[Barack_America]

155. I don't believe I posted on that subject.

I was on a DU hiatus at the time.

[JonQ]

156. I was talking in general terms

there were no posts like this or comments in the least bit defending tiller or christianity (or prompting a greater understanding of that ancient, wonderful and peaceloving religion) following that incident.

The double standard is very blatant.

I am generally anti-religion, but the way christianity is singled out as by far the worse religion ever on here, ignore facts to the contrary, is a little bit disturbing.

[imdjh]

118. They were traitors whose allegiances were to the Pope. Do not defame the greatest woman in history.

[Cosmocat]

133. Horsesnot ...

There are what, three, four times the number of muslims as there are christians on this planet? If Islam was teaching that "violence is acceptable, even desireable" on the level you are pushing, we would be a in WORLD of hurt ...

What is going on with extremist muslims is the same as what does on with extremist christians - David Koresh and branch dividians and WACO highlight what people who perverse the meaning of religion can do. James Jones wasn't a muslim ... ect.

This isn't an issue of the religions, this is an issue of deranged lunatics channeling religion - no religion is immune to it.

[Withywindle]

166. Actually, no. Christianity is the most populous religion in the world.

2.1 billion.

Islam is second, with 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist comes in third: 1.1 billion

The whole list might surprise you. Lots of it surprised me! http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

I do agree with the rest of your post, though.

[JerseygirlCT]

168. The Crusades were fought to keep restless knights with

plenty of soldiers busy elsewhere, so they wouldn't be a threat to the political powers back home.

And Islam does not uniformly teach that violence is acceptable.

[IdaBriggs]

79. BULLSHIT.

Mohammed does NOT say "spread my teachings by killing people."

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Does-Koran-Incite-Violence.htm

Saudi Arabia’s most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam’s ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed’s, first choice: “He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims.” Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, the third option (the sword) was only a last resort, if the non-Muslims refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam.

(snip)

Today most Muslims acknowledge the religious legitimacy of “defensive jihad” – including the Palestinian struggle – but many appear to reject the idea of offensive, expansionist jihad. Most would emphasize the defensive aspects of Mohammed’s numerous military campaigns, claiming that his attacks on others were only to pre-empt future aggression against Muslims. It is also often asserted that Mohammed’s military exploits were context-specific responses to the unique situations he encountered in his lifetime, and not binding on later generations of Muslims.

As for Jesus --

Luke 12:51
'Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but hostility!'

Matthew 10:35
'For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -'

Luke 14:26
'If anyone does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.'

Extremists come in every flavor, and yes, there are people who use every book written to justify horrible actions.

If you want to make up crap to justify your ignorance/prejudices, do NOT spread it around here.

[JonQ]

85. So either convert, submit and pay a fee

or die.

Well the US hasn't converted, we haven't submitted and paid a fee for our heathen ways, what was that third option you mentioned?

[DemBones DemBones]

97. Yes, if Muslims take over a country, non-Muslims

are called "dhimmis" and required to pay a special tax imposed only on dhimmis. I can't recall the word for the tax right now but it's easily looked up by anyone who wants to know instead of fooling themselves that Muslims just want to hold hands with us and sing "Kumbayah."

[JonQ]

107. I love apologists

will portray being given the option of "convert, submit, or die" as enlightened and peaceful if it's for muslims and still being preached today. But those same people use the actions of christians from a thousand years ago to smear the entire religion today. And at best they will say both religions are equivalent.

I'm not religious in the least but the double standard is offensive.

The history of the two is very different. Christianity developed in a relatively civilized and urban part of the middle east under a system of rational laws. Islam developed largely and was influenced by the more chaotic and warlike and less civilized bedouins of the desert. It's only natural they would evolve on different lines.

[IdaBriggs]

173. When armies of conquerors were using the excuse of "faith"

to expand their areas of conquest, trying to impose something called "tolerance" was done by the "special tax."

You know, like how the Jews weren't allowed to own property in most of Europe for centuries? Or work in any field that made a decent living? Or how Arianians (wiped out) / Docites (wiped out)/ Nestorians (wiped out) / Monophysites (wiped out) / Gnostics (wiped out) / Lutherans / Protestants / Baptists weren't allowed to breathe in different places? (And the "wiped out" folks are the short list - if Henry V over in England had been able to keep it in his pants / conceive an heir, we probably wouldn't have "freedom of religion" enshrined here in the United States.)

Well, in Islamic countries, all faiths -- Jews and Christian variants included -- paid (still pay, since when is the government going to turn down a source of revenue?) a special fee (called a tax) to be left alone, and then went about their business following their own faith. However, if they wanted to run around pissing off their neighbors by knocking on doors / trying to convert them from the "true faith", the authorities had the right to use permanent corporal punishment.

I don't agree with it, but it worked for centuries. It was "tolerance by pay" and at a time when the state determined which religion you followed based on royal whims, it kept a lot of people alive. Russia was ruled by Moslems for centuries, and yet, the Russian Orthodox church flourished.

My point is this: Get a grip. Since no faith corners the market on stupid/bad behavior, quit trying to blame one guy going around the bend on his religion. And that comment works for the Moslem guy who doesn't want to be deployed / goes crazy shooting people just as well as it does for the Christan nut-job who shot an abortion doctor at Church. The point of most faiths is to have a closer relationship with a "Higher Power - whatever you conceive that to be" / be a better person / be a BENEFIT to your community. If we all had the "go once / be perfect" thing down, regular reminders on how to behave wouldn't be necessary (which is why regular attendance is "suggested" for most faiths).

[JonQ]

186. You know what's funny?

When some muslim extremist goes nuts and kills someone people always have a handy anecdote about how in 1200AD the christians did x, which was in fact far worse so christians really are more violent and evil and we should be more tolerant of muslims.

When some christian extremist goes nuts and kills someone people always blame christianity and never cite how other religions are comparable.

I wonder why that is?

[DemBones DemBones]

89. Read the Koran itself, not Islam-Watch, which

is hardly an unbiased source. Or talk to an honest Muslim. I have.

Jesus was saying that, in order to follow Him, people must give up everything, including family ties if family don't follow Him, and that His teachings will cause disagreements ("hostility.")

Very few Christians actually sever their ties with family who don't share their beliefs.

[IdaBriggs]

171. Since I actually study the religion / work with

and am friends with Moslems, AND have read the Koran, I'm pretty clear on how completely out of context the "spread the faith by violence" crap actually is. Each religions holy book and history can and have been used to justify behaviour completely OPPOSITE of waht the founders of the religion wanted.

The five tenants of Islam have NOTHING to do with killing people; unless you want to get into a "this religious army killed more people than that religious army" I suggest you Stop Spreading Crap Now.

[imdjh]

117. No, but I own a Kia

[eridani]

183. They want to take over the world?

So where are athey keeping all their 700+ military bases? In what state is their totally self-contained bunker of an embassy located?

[cali]

58. There really isn't such a thing as Muslim culture.

Way to generalize. The culture in Indonesia is quite different from the culture in Iran.

[JonQ]

129. How do you think this would go over in the middle east

I think it's a shame we know so little about christian culture, that our collective response to the friction between our two cultures is "kill them", rather than a desire to learn more about the conflict itself.

[Igel]

160. It is not possible to discuss the conflict itself.

It's plagued in many ways by the same kind of difficulties that plague discussing race relations in the US.

One side must be wrong, one side must be right. The side that's wrong must be absolutely wrong; the side that's right must be error free. To hint that one's wrongness isn't absolute and that those who are right in their own judgment might be in error is judged to be grounds for invective and a cessation of discussion. As soon as such a judgement is made, a vast chorus chimes in because, well, you dared to challenge what is required to be believed--and in the interest of promoting cooperation and understanding the somewhat-too-free thinker is promptly barred from participating and is judged as racist/Islamophobic and therefore of no importance or interest (or even fully human).

Add in, of course, the monolithic nature of Islam, even as those mostly staunchly defending its monolithicness give ample evidence as to its diversity, and it makes the problem even harder.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. And the media wouldn't really pay it any attention if he had said that.

and his faith would never be brought up, except maybe in an apologetic way with Pat Robertson coming on TV and saying "Of course we don't condone this in the Christian faith" and that would be the end of the discussion.

They could get a million Imams on the TV over the weekend, every one of them condemning violence, and the media would still be "Of course, Islam's official position is that killing non-muslims is a requirement".

[JonQ]

23. Yeah

for some reason Dr. Tillers murderer, who used religion to back his actions, did not receive the same praise or half hearted defense on here.

Odd.

[DemBones DemBones]

49. You nailed it.

The irony is that Jesus did not say to judge and execute people who offend your beliefs while Muhammad did say to kill those who won't convert to Islam.

Tiller's killer was totally out of line with Christianity while Hasan was being a good Muslim, though he may also be mentally unstable, like the man who shot Tiller.

"Allahu Akbar" is what suicide bombers shout and the Army reported today that Hasan shouted it before beginning his shooting rampage.

[Barack_America]

55. If you think I'm defending him, you are mistaken.

I am saying that his use of "Allahu Akbar" tells us nothing about why he did what he did. It certainly does not tell us he felt he was killing for Islam. It does not tell us that he wasn't either.

I'm saying that it's a very common phrase used in many situations, and to jump to conclusions about what he meant by it is foolish. We would not make the same assumptions about somebody who said "God help me", though the expressions mean the same thing.

[JonQ]

69. When the people who use that phrase prior to killing innocents

are always motivated by religion I think it's a safe assumption.

For instance, he didn't say "praise a non-denominational god-like mythological figure"

Or "praise secularism!"

Or "praise rational agnosticism!".

[TicketyBoo]

175. I disagree.

I believe that people who utter this phrase while murdering people believe they are taking part in a holy jihad and are killing in the name of God and for God.

This is what I believe, and I think that most other people believe this, too, Muslim and Christian, alike, whether they want to voice that opinion or not.

[TwilightGardener]

68. +1--the religiously insane are bad news, no matter which religion.

[still_one]

25. He wasn't a Christian, he was a Muslim. baroach Goldstein was Jew. In both cases they

they most likely killed for their illusionary religious beliefs

The crusades did their killing in the name of "christ"

That is part of the story, that he is a Muslim.

[StarfarerBill]

124. I think we should withhold judgment...

...until we learn whether Maj. Hasan's religious beliefs were the primary or even a contributing factor to his alleged crime...and then think on how and why it happened, and how we can prevent such from happening again.

[Barack_America]

125. That seems logical.

;)


(Your avatar)

[chaplainM]

157. If God is so great

Why does he need humans to do his slaughtering for Him? Couldn't He do it himself?

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Yeah, but to the FOX news folk, it means "Death to white conservative Christian men!"

I'm so afraid of how the media is gonna spin this thing into the shitter with absolutely no respect for truth, nuance, or critical exploration.

[msongs]

3. our god is better than yours......... nt

[SIMPLYB1980]

4. Any praising of any God before you

kill innocent people is disgusting. And should not be excused.

[Barack_America]

8. Yes. But the same Christians who will be appalled at "Allahu Akbar"...

...would show sympathy for the man who spoke the words in English.

[sufrommich]

11. For a christian shooting American soldiers? I highly doubt it. nt

[Barack_America]

20. Anti-Muslim bias much?

Do you feel that violence is inherent in the Islamic religion? Or could it be that our military is not in the habit of slaughtering Christians? Or of harassing Christians within its ranks?

[still_one]

36. Violence is inherent in ALL WESTERN RELIGIONS period. I can name numerous examples

examples throughout history

but to deny that this killing does not have anything to do with religion, when the whole story isn't told is also not correct

[Barack_America]

45. Yes. That is an excellent point about all Western religions.

But his exclaiming "Allahu Akbar" says nothing about his intent to kill for his religion. It could just as easily imply that he realized he was about to do something that was AGAINST his religion and was offering an apology.

Simply put, saying "Allahu Akbar" means very little about his intent, just as someone saying "God help me" means very little about theirs.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

105. How about in the last decade?

Most religions have violence in their past. The vast majority have out grown it. Islam has not

[Raineyb]

162. What the hell are you talking about?

I don't see that ANY religion has grown out of using violence. It seems more than unfair to pick on Islam for being particularly violent. (Not to mention more than a bit bigoted)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

163. Relative Risk at a macro level

Considerably more violence world wide is associated with islam than any other major religion in terms of advocacy. Does the Catholic church teach violence in the defense of the faith?

I am not an xtian, but its not rocket science to see that gays, women and others are much less at risk from xtianity than islam


Perceiving differences and taking issue with a religion is not bigotry.

[Raineyb]

170. I don't see how you can say that any of those groups are at less risk from Christianity

at all. Christians certainly have their more than their share of violent crazies. And unless you are a professor of comparative religion I certainly won't take your of what the religion teaches over people I know who actually practice the religion.

Ascribing violence to one faith while ignoring that of another is certainly bigoted.

[Hissyspit]

177. Wow.

You call yourself a progressive professor? You can't separate the radical branches of religions from the moderate ones?

Incredible.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

184. I say the same thing when I see people unable discern differences in risks

Having seen the deleterious impact of islam worldwide personally, its clear to me that it is a primary risk to international human rights and progress. Lets look at an example. Islam and the sharia are violently homophobic. If gays are caught they get stoned to death. If a woman is raped, she can get charged with adultery and face the same fate. This is not the doctrine of some splinter group or renegade sect. Its is supported and preached from the mimber (pulpit) by imams world wide. It is the law some nations. Islam is unique among the worlds' religions today in that regards. Granted not all muslims practice that way, but there is a large component that support the sharia lifestyle and think it should be the basis of all law. Any rationale sentient person should take umbrage with that, be they conservative or liberal.

There is a tendency in the liberal and progressive communities to lump all religions together. Its a common mantra here as well. That some can not discern a difference between Quakers and muslims and the relative risk to civil rights and overall progress they represent is astonishing...it makes me say "wow".

[sufrommich]

53. What the hell are you talking about? You claimed that christians

would feel sympathy with another christian shouting christian slogans while killing American soldiers. I said I highly doubt that. How is that being "anti-muslim"?

[Barack_America]

57. I took it to mean you doubted a Christian would commit such a crime.

My apologies if I was mistaken, which I seem to have been.

[sufrommich]

60. A misunderstanding, no problem.Peace.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

103. Yes it does, revering of martyrdom with its rewards and such.

More importantly than what is in the faiths' scriptures, is what is practiced today. Islam today broadly and actively teaches violence in the furtherance of the faith and mores.

Most of the worlds have violence in their pasts. All religions have their share of nut cases. However today, with the exception of Islam, none of the major religions actively or broadly supports violence.

Islam needs to grow up and move beyond dark ages.

[SIMPLYB1980]

13. Well fuck the Christians that can't see their own hypocrisy.

If I see that shit I will tell them the same thing.

[Coventina]

19. You really think that Christians would be sympathetic to murdering soldiers?

As long as the murderer was shouting "God is great!" in English?


!!!!

I disagree.

[Barack_America]

27. I'm speaking not of the crime, but the expression itself.

I'm talking about how saying "Allahu Akbar" before doing something is the same as saying "God help me", and how it would be wrong to attribute the utterance of such a phrase to committing the crime for God or for Islam.

I don't think there can be much sympathy for a sane man carrying out an attack such as this. But, yes, for a lesser crime Christians would be sympathetic to the man who says "God help me", but suspicious and fearful of the man who says "Allahu Akbar", which is the same thing.

[still_one]

38. How do you know what was in HIS mind? There are reports that he had internet discussions

praising suicide bombers? If those turn out to be accurate, what is the connotation then?

[Barack_America]

50. I don't. And his saying "Allahu Akbar" doesn't tell anybody else, either.

That's the point of my OP.

It's a common saying that is used in many instances, more nonviolent, than violent.

So to take this expression and suggest it must mean he killed for Islam is absolutely wrong.

[still_one]

52. Then I agree /nt

[Coventina]

41. You are leaving out its common use as a battle cry.

It is not exactly the same as "God help me" although it can be used as such.

However, if someone is spraying bullets while shouting the phrase, the "battle cry" aspect of it would seem to be the more logical interpretation.

Personally, I think he's just someone who flipped his lid, and unfortunately he is Muslim (because it will heighten more anti-Muslim sentiment). He could have been a Christian singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" as he was doing it. Either way, it was a despicable act.

[Barack_America]

47. Define how it is used as a battle cry.

In the, "God help me because you agree with what I'm going to do" sense? Or the "God help me because I'm going into battle and will surely die" sense?

[Coventina]

63. Allahu Akbar translates to "God is greater" not "God help me"

"God is greater" is an unfinished thought, making the phrase applicable to lots of different situations. In battle, therefore, it takes on the meaning of "God is greater than YOU my enemy!"

[DemBones DemBones]

108. Where have you been, in a cave? Suicide bombers shout "Allahu Akbar"

before they blow themselves up. That Egyptian pilot who crashed the commercial airliner into the ocean circa ten years ago was saying "Allahu Akbar" all the way down, it was on the cockpit recorder. The aftermath of September 11 was a very confusing time but I believe two of the cockpit recorders picked up a man or men saying "Allahu Akbar."

[Barack_America]

113. Read the post please, rather than just the title.

Thanks.

[T Wolf]

78. Like Onward Chrisian Soldiers? At least it wasn't put into song...

[Coventina]

92. If you think I'm giving Christian violence a pass, let me disabuse

you of that notion.

Violence for any reason is wrong (except in limited circumstances, like shooting a shooter, for instance).

But violence done in the name of religion, ANY religion, is humanity at its worst.

[leftynyc]

123. Not the same at all

Shouting G-d is great is not the same as asking G-d's forgiveness (Which is how I interpret G-d help me). Not the same at all and twisting yourself in a pretzel wont make it so.

[T Wolf]

76. There were many christists who were thrilled with Dr. Tiller's murder for THIER religious reasons.

Those trying to make this a jihad are simply exposing their religious bigotry.

[Coventina]

96. see my post #92 n/t

[TicketyBoo]

179. That is highly offensive.

And not true. My heart sank when I found out the shooter had an Arabic name. At first, it looked like it was a conspiracy when they said others were in custody, and my heart sank even further. I told my son, "Oh, how I wish it were just some nutcase!"

Well, I still wish it were some nutcase who wasn't of Middle Eastern descent and of the Muslim faith because I don't want Muslims to be persecuted any more than they already are, but facts are facts. This fellow didn't want to go to Iraq and help our soldiers deal with PTSD. No, he would rather shoot our soldiers before they got a chance to kill any of his Muslim "brothers." If he was yelling, "Allah Akbar," as he was shooting our soldiers -- HIS soldiers -- then he was shooting them in the name of God. That is an absolute truth.

I tend to think this is what happened because if it was just the fact that he did not want to be deployed, he could have shot himself in the foot or robbed a bank or done any of a dozen things to end up in the hoosegow and not have to go to Iraq, but the fact is, he chose to go to war against our Army. And if he was shouting "God is great!" while he was shooting our unarmed soldiers, then you can bet it was so they could not fight against Muslims in the Middle East. If he was shouting "God is great" while shooting people, it was jihad in his mind. There is no doubt about that in my mind, and I do not want it to be true.

Someone here said that an eyewitness told her relative that he was shouting, "I'm fucking not going over there!" I HOPE that's what he was shouting. But given what we are hearing about his history, how religious he is, and how he could not find a bride because he insisted that his wife should wear a hijab, I fear that it is not.

So do not call me a religious bigot, because I certainly am not.

[cali]

65. bullfucking shit. I doubt there are many Christians, Jews, Muslims

Buddhists or others who would show sympathy for a man saying praise jesus as he mowed down people in cold fucking blood, genius.

[DemBones DemBones]

102. No way do I accept anyone killing for any reason

other than legitimate self-defense or when ordered to during war. And I'm anti-war.

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. That is not 'praising' - which is the point of the OP.

Is it somehow more disgusting than a person who has just gunned down a half dozen innocents before being shot asking for a priest to give him last rites?

Same fucking thing. Merely ritual in preparation for death.

It's saying, "I'm about to die, and I should die with God's name on my lips."

Is that fucked up? Yes. In exactly the same way that ALL religion is fucked up.

[SIMPLYB1980]

31. Oh I see it differently I see it as a way for any religious

person to cleans themselves of any wrong doing by praising their God because they think it will do them some kind of good when they die. It's idiotic what ever religion you are.

[imdjh]

6. is that difficult?

[Barack_America]

10. Sorry? What hoops have I jumped through here?

I provided you with the actual meaning and usage of a phrase and why it would be so foolish for Christian Americans to object to it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

17. You're being slightly disingenuous

Like it or not, that phrase is the hallmark of a radical Islamic act of terror. Did you see any of the beheading videos?

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. It is ALSO the hallmark of the 99% of Muslims are are NOT radical

Islamists.

[Barack_America]

37. Yes. I've also seen Iranian youth screaming "Allahu Akbar" from their roofs...

...in defiance of a dictator.

I've also heard on many occasions Muslims use "Allahu Akbar" much like my Greek friends use, "Bravo!".

Point being that if, as a nation and a culture, our only exposure to Muslims is the violence we're shown on TV, then yes, we are likely going to attribute everything they say and do to violence. But we would be (and are) wrong to do so.

[cali]

70. the usage of the phrase varies.

and I don't give a rat's ass what religion some murderer is invoking as he mows down unarmed people. It's disgusting.

[T Wolf]

9. Absolutely correct. It is the same as if he had said "Jesús me ahorra" which according to

BabbleFish, is Spanish for "Jesus save me."

Would we then be blaming the fundies? More likely, that would have set off the anti-immigrant bunch.

[imdjh]

18. Did McVey scream an ancient Gaelic war cry before blowing up the OK building?

[maglatinavi]

73. Wolf

It is not "ahorra", is "salva'. "Jesus me salva". Ahorra relates to saving money, like "savings account". Your intention is good ...:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[T Wolf]

106. No hablo español - obviamente. And barely English. But maybe BabbleFish is smarter

that we think.

If "ahorra" refers to saving money and in AMerika, money is god, then Babblefish IS correct.

maybe not...

[spoony]

148. ...

The entire conversation has become about Christians NOW, when one wasn't even INVOLVED. I can't fucking FATHOM what would be said if one did that. DU would explode.

[Democracyinkind]

12. Indeed a very wide-spread saying that can not be solely attributed to religious nuts.

But you are fighting a losing battle, I fear.

After the last 8 years one would expect America to be familiar with the meaning of that phrase. But hey.... you know...

[Blue-Jay]

14. I thought it meant "It's a trap!"

[still_one]

15. People have been killing in the name of religion forever

Trying to rationalize this is nonesense. It is exactly what it appears to be

I have no doubt there was a similar mindset when Baroach Goldstein killed 29 Muslim worshippers

This killing was done, because the individual, in their twisted mind thought it was in the name of god

[seabeyond]

16. There should be no "shit, shit, shit" reaction .... exactly. thank you.

instead fo trying to defend a position, sometimes just much easier to sit in the truth. not nearly so painful.

it is, nothing more than what it is.

[imdjh]

21. Very Vulcan. nt

[seabeyond]

61. hm. lol. nt

[JonQ]

24. I assume you have the same response to christian fundie terrorists?

Who blow up abortion clinics?

We should try to understand their culture, what makes them think the way they do?

[still_one]

30. Of course, and what do you think the crusades were about. That doesn't mean he

there wasn't a religious belief system that influenced him in the killing

It also doesn't mean that generalization should be extrapolated to all Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc.

[slackmaster]

28. No doubt Hasan is well aware of how his comments will be viewed in context

He said it for effect, just as he murdered a bunch of people for effect.

[Barack_America]

122. That is quite an assumption.

[slackmaster]

138. A rather safe one, I think

Given his age, education, and that he was born and raised in the USA.

[Jennicut]

29. I am a Christian. The issue to me is using your religion to kill others.

Or using it as a backup when you hurt someone...it is okay, I praise to so and so. Everything will be fine. Religion (every single kind in the world) is to easily co-opted to be used to hurt others when it should be used to help.

[still_one]

32. Exactly. /nt

[Skittles]

48. you mean like, say, preventing stem cell research?

[Jennicut]

111. Yup. As a diabetic, I know stem cell research would benefit many people.

I am a type 2 but for type 1 children, stem cell research could some day cure diabetes. I have this sucky disease as an adult so I can only imagine how bad it is for kids.

[Skittles]

165. I've seen the pain of diabetes

both parents, two brothers.....it is astounding how many people think that shots cure all - it's a truly hideous condition

[Desertrose]

34. Thanks for this..we apparently need to learn a bit more

about the Muslim culture/religion before we start yelling "shit shit shit"!

[izquierdista]

40. It's religion

So by definition it's toxic, violent bullshit (except for the occasional Quaker or Buddhist).

[DemBones DemBones]

109. Read some history. Buddhists have fought wars,

not all are pacifists.

[izquierdista]

120. And Nixon was a Quaker

Occasional: oc·ca·sion·al (-kzh-nl)
adj.
1.a. Occurring from time to time. See Synonyms at periodic.
b. Not habitual; infrequent: took an occasional glass of wine.
2. Created for a special occasion: occasional verse.
3. Intended for use as the occasion requires: an occasional chair.
4. Acting as a cause.
5. Acting in a specified capacity from time to time: an occasional hunter.

[cali]

75. oh for the love of reason. it doesn't fucking matter why he said it or

even if he said it. The sad fact is that it's being broadcast widely that he said it, and that will provoke further irrational anti-Muslim sentiment. I'm the one who said shit, shit, shit, and I made it clear that that is why I expressed said sentiment. duh.

[Myrina]

42. but but but ... he didn't say it in Engerlish!1!!!1!!

:p

[ShortnFiery]

44. None of "the story" that the government is feeding us about this soldier's actions ...

is making ANY SENSE to me now.

Remember, that before they beheaded a famous journalist in Pakistan, the terrorists uttered the same phrase?

Sounds like something from a black ops playbook to me? Or maybe the guy was mentally ill and just snapped?

We'll never know the unvarnished truth but I believe NOTHING that is fed to us by the Pentagon controlled PsyOPS media.

[Statistical]

54. Virtually all terrorist say it before they attack.

What is strange about that?

I have seen terrorist video (used as training) of them saying it before setting off IED, before activating suicide vests, before popping mortars, before firing sniper shot.

Not everything is super ultra elite PsyOPS BS.

Terrorist routinely use the phrase before committing a terrorist attack.

[Barack_America]

74. And more commonly uttered before NOT committing a terrorist attack.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x326936

[Statistical]

84. Agreed. It has non violent relevence also.

My point wasn't to indicate that it was used exclusively by terrorists. 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time it is uttered has absolutely nothing to do with jihad or terrorism.

However looking only at Muslim terrorists it is very common. Many believe their acts ARE the will/act of God. Even if that belief is wrong or not shared by the larger Muslim community it is not unusual for terrorist to be heard using the phrase before and during an attack.

[JonQ]

82. Because it would be impossible

for a terrorist to be motivated by religion. It has to be a CIA plot.

There are literally no muslim extremists out there willing to kill because of their faith, none, I am being perfectly serious here.

[liberal_at_heart]

51. I was watching Rick Steve's Europe special on Iran

This has nothing to do with what the shooter said but American's misunderstanding the Muslim's cultural language made me think of this. I was watching Rick Steve's Europe special on Iran when it came on tv. He was in a cab in Iran and the driver said Death to traffic. Apparently they say Death to ... whenever they are frustrated. It's not a specific death threat to a particular person. It just means they are frustrated, kind of like when we swear when we are frustrated.

[cali]

56. "Would our culture fault someone for saying "God help me" before carrying

out such a crime? Yes, indeed it would. It's obscene to beseech God as you go on a fucking murderous rampage.

And sorry, it has been uttered in connection with violence before.

Nor is Hasan's uttering it, if indeed he did, necessarily a signifyer of a rational mental status. It's utterly absurd to suggest any such thing.

[Barack_America]

62. Not as absurd to assume it means he killed for Islam.

Which is what you did in your OP.

And, sorry, but when calls out to God it does signify that one understands the implications of what they are doing, either that their act is wrong or that it is dangerous themselves.

His saying of "Allahu Akbar" means nothing more than someone saying "God help me", though I don't recall seeing similar outrage towards a person saying the latter.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Statistical]

94. You can't look at words in void.

Terrorist routinely use the phrase to seek assistance from God in their jihad. It happens every day.

So when you combine that with the fact that he was committing a terrorist attack it isn't insane to associate him saying that with Muslim Jihad.

To take your "God help me" example further.

If Christian violence groups started killing abortion doctors, homosexuals, and adulterers and in every attack they said "God help me" or "by the will of God" then those phrases you be associated with the attacks.

Now after years of that and thousands of attacks you saw someone in an abortion clinic pull out a handgun and say "God help me" or "by the will of God" it wouldn't be biased to reach the conclusion he is going to start a terrorist attack. He likely isn't asking God to help him clean the weapon properly.

[cali]

127. I said absolutely NOTHING like that in my OP

and you fucking damned well know it. I said I was concerned that the reporting of his alleged utterance made me fear for the safety of Muslims in this country.

It's out and out disgusting to twist my words. YOU know what you're doing.

[951-Riverside]

59. This is what cowards scream before they blow up themselves or after they've set off an IED

...or chopped off someone's head, or sniped a soldier, etc.

Sorry, I'm not going to delude myself I've seen enough insurgency/terrorist videos to know this NEVER means anything peaceful when they're conducting an act of terror. Its the equivalent of screaming "white power", the whole point is try and justify murder.

Don't want to believe?

Watch a few insurgent videos.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2b2_1249832047 (00:30)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d95_1228814793 (00:29)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=19c_1229070820 (00:00)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=de4_1228916727 (00:25)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=27e_1206204647 (00:05)

@That could give insight towards his state of mind, and sanity

Is it really hard to understand that cowardly piece of shit intended to murder or seriously injure others to make a statement?

[Barack_America]

71. Try talking to some Muslim people.

Before declaring yourself an expert of their language and culture.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x326936
Oh those evil, evil Iranian youths, calling out to God for freedom and democracy.

[951-Riverside]

101. Did you even watch the videos or are you defending his acts?

I don't have to be an expert of language to know that is what Muslim terrorists scream to justify their cowardly action. Is it really hard to understand that Hasan is just another coward who hid behind religion to justify murder?

Here is another video for you:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0ecbf3c3a7 (00:44)

[Barack_America]

114. Did you watch the video?

The people in that video were shouting "Allahu Akbar" over and over again and yet, no terrorism?

How could that be given your definition of Allahu Akbar being "what Muslim terrorists scream to justify their cowardly action"?

Is defying a dictator terrorism or cowardly?

[Dreamer Tatum]

88. Don't get too worked up

Intellectual righteousness is part of the way some people process uncomfortable things. When people get worked up, they see logical fallacies where there are none, and they create elegant explanations for extremely simple truths.

No, not all Muslims who yell "Allah Akbar!" commit savage acts. But it certainly appears as though the Muslims who do commit savage acts ALL yell "Allah Akbar!"

Likewise, the appeal to intellect in the face of religious violence is entirely disingenuous. There was no appeal to intellect, or to understand better the Christian mindset, when Dr. Tiller was murdered.

[Hissyspit]

180. Speaking of logical fallacies...

There was no question as to the motive of Dr. Tiller's killer. It was almost immediately clear. Scott Roeder intended it that way. The facts and motivations in this case are much more blurry at this time.

[Romulox]

77. Unrec for spin. The phrase is also used as a jihadist battle cry.

Whether that's the case here, I can't say.

[Barack_America]

87. No spin. I noted that it is a call for God's help.

[Romulox]

100. The spin is insisting that "calling out for god's help" whilst engaging in murder of civilians

and non-combatants is not some evidence of a jihadist motivation. It certainly isn't conclusive evidence, but it is some evidence.

You more or less admit yourself: "It may suggest he felt his impending actions would require God's help..." That's the very soul of a particular brand of radical fundamentalist Islam--the idea that god will help one murder civilians and non-combatants. No mainstream sect of Islam advocates such an idea. :hi:

[Barack_America]

112. That was intentional.

His saying "Allahu Akbar" can mean many things, it doesn't immediately mean his actions were "for God", which is the meaning many Westerners give to every utterance of "Allahu Akbar".

[Romulox]

115. Right. But the context is there. "Allah Akbhar" + slaughtering non-combatants

is not the same thing as my osteopath praying at his mosque. The context is there, and it is worth exploring.

That said, I agree that it is not conclusive as to anything.

[HughMoran]

81. Sadly, it's also come to mean "it's time to meet your maker"

"& I'm taking as many of you with me as I can."

I hate to sound smug or like I'm promoting hate of Muslims (trust me, I know prejudice), but people really need to STOP maliciously feeding into these stereotypes if they want to be taken seriously.

[TwilightGardener]

90. Didn't the crazy Egyptian co-pilot who downed an airliner say the phrase?

Yeah, it most certainly can mean, "Hey God, watch this!"

[TwilightGardener]

98. All I know is, if I hear it, I am going to run like hell.

[Dreamer Tatum]

104. As any sane person would do. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

110. Why would your run?

It could be innocuous, but it could be that its an honor killing or other reprehensible act. There could be someone in need of succor that you could help.

There is also the counter chant of "Allah FUBAR" which I have seen done several times.

[Romulox]

126. Edit: sorry, responded to wrong post. nt

[Cosmocat]

135. Yeah, except ...

if you ever interacted with any real live practicing muslims you would look a fool.

I have heard Allad Ahkbar dozens of times ...

Each one was a genuine greating or salutation after talking to someone ...

[MNDemNY]

99. This thread is further evidence that ALL religion should be wiped from the earth.

Or at least delegated to DADT status.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

128. Bullshit. Muslims are a cornerstone of my community. Fine neighbors. Fine people.

:hi:

[MNDemNY]

139. No dispute from me, still, though religion, all of them, are a scourge on humanity.

Their time is done, humans armed with science must move on. Those that do not , will not survive.For you to even think that my post was anymore anti muslim, than just anti-religion shows your poor reading comprehension. good day.

[spoony]

143. Hmm, sounds like a crusade.

Good luck with that.

[MNDemNY]

145. No, an "awakening" !!!

[spoony]

146. Uh huh, thought better of it then?

An "awakening" doesn't quite have the same ring to it as wiping something off the face of the earth, though. Or the violent connotations.

[MNDemNY]

147. There is "wiping" then there is "wiping" either way, it's gotta go!!

[spoony]

151. wiping = an action, by another

That's not an "awakening" which is by its nature something someone does themself.

[MNDemNY]

152. Either way is fine by me.

religion needs to go, it is nothing but a detriment to humankind. There is no room for religion in a fact based world. Outside of a fact based world, humankind will perish.

[LanternWaste]

149. self delete...

self-delete. Feeling way too fine, too happy, and too good. :P

[MNDemNY]

150. Yup.

[izzybeans]

130. Christians use this phrase too.

Those who speak Arabic just happen to say it in Arabic. Jesus' dad is Allah.

[deaniac21]

134. You "reasoning" is muddled.

[Barack_America]

137. Care to elaborate?

[deaniac21]

158. In this case it's so obvious that no elaboration is necessary.

Except, perhaps a giggle.

[Barack_America]

161. Okay, I take it you have no argument then.

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

136. If there was a God, he'd be pissed at having to take the rap that religion lays on him.

"I did it for God.." is a sorry excuse for murder or any other crime. Including war.

[Barack_America]

144. Agree.

[uppityperson]

142. thank you. k&r. asking your god for forgiveness before doing a crime like this seems

reasonable to me. As part of a culture, "allah akbar" is a normal exclamation for a lot of situations that those who aren't part of the culture, or haven't been exposed to it, don't understand. Thank you for posting this.

[cali]

172. Reasonable? There is nothing reasonable about mass murder

period. And that includes beseeching whatever god you believe in for forgiveness. Not that we know that that's what he was doing if he did utter the phrase. As has been pointed out, the usage of the phrase can vary.

[uppityperson]

187. I did not say there is anything reasonable about mass murder

"As has been pointed out, the usage of the phrase can vary."

You are welcome.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

167. Allahu Akbar means duck and cover to me at this point.

Lutheran here, the Muslims have to beat back on this message much harder.

[varelse]

169. I'm kind of swimming upstream here by recommending this thread

and that's making me sad :(

[smalll]

174. Yes, if a Christian shouted "God help me" before gunning down a dozen or so people,

no-one would have any problem with it! Certainly not here on the DU! What bigots we all are! :eyes:

[proteus_lives]

176. Sorry but if I'm sitting in a restaurant or on a airplane and I hear "Allahu Akbar!"

I'm hitting the deck.

[TicketyBoo]

181. "The expression does not mean, 'Jihad time'"

unless one happens to be participating in jihad at the time.

[woo me with science]

182. You are working so hard here. nt

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.