Ok this is officially a tin foil moment...

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok folks, we had a three star tell us five hours ago that the shooter was dead, and that the police officer who shot him was dead.

I get this chaos in early hour or so,,, but either Command and Control at Fort Hood is broken (watch for ahem, retirements soon) or something else is going on.

You simply do not keep a Lt. General out of the loop ok folks. You simply do not. So I hate to say it, but there is more to this this story than we are being told.

The last time a story changed that radically was ahem Roswell New Mexico, and we all know how speculation on THAT ONE has not stopped... but this weather balloon story... smells... just saying.

For the record, these are what strange twilight zone plots are made off by the way.

And those of you who have worn ANY uniform know this... Lt.Generals do not like to be played for fools.

Oh wait, let me reach for it

:tinfoilhat:

[MissB]

1. I don't understand what the motivation would be.

????

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. A coverup of some kind

and within the military that is an easy thing to do... just toss TS on anything or ATS... (Above top secret)

As to what kind that is where the speculation will come...

[timeforpeace]

9. It's the Joooooos again!

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. It this makes you feel better

it just raises all kinds of alarms... perhaps since I have actually worn a uniform and exercised command and control... and I know high ranking people DO NOT like to be kept out of any loops... especially one that affects the perimeter of their base and base security. That's not a good thing.

[dschis]

17. If that's the case...heads will roll

Maybe they were trying to smoke out any collaborators?

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. That is why I offered it as part of the possibilities

either bad command and control and watch for ahem early retirements, even a Lt. General... or something else is going on

[gleaner]

58. A question from the peanut gallery ...

My husband has just raised a very good question. He heard on the news that the shooter was armed only with pistols. He wants to know how someone armed only with pistols managed to shoot about 40 people on a military installation before being shot himself.

It is officially catching. Let me reach for mine.:tinfoilhat: And in case anyone else needs one, here is my special link on how to make your own tin foil hat and the importance of keeping it with you at all times. http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. That actually is easy to answer

You can empty a 9mm semi auto in six seconds flat. I am not a top shooter by the way but I have emptied the 40 cal that fast. You can also get extended clips... that is 15 rounds and one in the chamber... which means sixteen rounds before you reload. An expert pistol, and officers, even medical officers have to qualify at that level, can reload in less than a second. So three clips, you got that amount of rounds. One was not a semi auto... but one was... so reaching that rate of fire is possible.

Point number two... soldiers DO NOT walk armed while on base unless they are MPs and ON DUTY.

Now the tin foil looks good though.

[gleaner]

64. Thanks for the info ...

We didn't hear that one of the pistols was a semi automatic until later on the news. My husband was in the service during Viet Nam, although it was near the end of the war when he enlisted and he was never shipped out of the U.S. He was at Beal AFB and it the knowledge that they were all so near atomic weapons eventually became like background noise. He said that it was alarming at first, but then they were just there. I don't know if I could have been quite that blase.

My tin foil is very comforting. This morning they changed the story again. First they said it was a female military officer who shot the attacker even though she was wounded herself, then they said that it was a policeman. Maybe I will make a new tinfoil hat just in case. This is growing into one doozy of a changing story.

[mucifer]

27. yup me and Jon Stewart we's out to get yah!

[akwapez]

63. coverup could be that there were in fact multiple shooters

One shooter dead. When the story changed that shooter became a "victim". With the goal to spin the "he just snapped" story (can't do that with more than one shooter). If the real story is terrorism (AKA political mass murder) and an army base on US soil was infiltrated, that doesn't look so good.

I'm not convinced yet that the official story is not true, but I have had this theory in the back of my mind.

[hedgehog]

2. It does seem strange to name the shooter and announce that he's dead

only to notice a few hours later that whoopsie! he's still breathing.

[Atman]

10. And his name changed, too. From Malik Nidal Hasan to Nidal Malik Hasan.

Minor point, but this was no minor story. You'd think if you're going to release the name of a man accused of a horrific multiple murder, you'd release the correct name. He was a fucking officer -- they didn't know his actual name???

I admit, the more I hear about this the weirder it gets. Almost as if they're busily sitting around a conference table trying to figure out their story.

But why?

.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. if they're busily sitting around a conference table trying to figure out their story.

That is exactly what I told my BIL when I talked about this not too long ago.

We were going over how bad command and control is .... (possible) or there is more to this story.

[The Magistrate]

3. It Is An Interesting Development, Ma'am

Not beyond the range of SNAFU, though, so far as is known at present.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. BOHICA comes closer to mind

why I said watch for them retirements.

But it is strange.

[cherokeeprogressive]

46. I have to go with SNAFU. Trying to satisfy umpteen 24/7 news outlets who've already started

frantically speculating about the situation based on information from everyone with a twitter account forces someone in front of the camera. Unfortunately, that someone has to be a person with some "juice", and said person goes in front of the cameras without all the information necessary.

[Bolo Boffin]

4. My speculation

Maybe they were waiting to see if there were any others out there in a cell before tipping their hand on this. Letting the "cell" think he was dead when he was alive.

Like I say, just my speculation.

[riderinthestorm]

14. That was my initial thought when I heard the news he was (now) alive.

As well as the female police officer being alive.

I'll gladly don my tinfoil hat alongside nadinbrezinski on this. Something really smells here.

Was Hasan under scrutiny already? And that's why they didn't release accurate info? They're questioning others?

The plot thickens (for me).

[Bolo Boffin]

28. Hmmm.

Yeah. Like I say, it's just a speculation for me and I'm open to what nadinbrezinski said.

[hedgehog]

15. That seems to be a reasonable possibility.

[tekisui]

23. That would lead to the question--Why?

How would it effect the disclosure of a cell positively for a gunman to be believed to be dead?

What is gained over the shooter being believed to be alive?

[Bolo Boffin]

25. Following this line

a cell that thought a captured member was dead might act differently than one who knew they might be betrayed.

However, I just heard a Yale guy on CNN just say this and I felt it was a bit of a stretch. It may be still be a reason that they didn't say anything, but it sure sounded like a stupid one coming from someone else. :D

[MinneapolisMatt]

5. This whole incident is BIZARRE.

I don't know what else to say.

[timeforpeace]

7. Whatever.

[BillDU]

12. And

And nobody's looking at how the Democrats extended unemployment benefits and tax credits anymore. Not that that has anything to do with it.

[conscious evolution]

13. I have to agree

It will be interesting to see what the MOS's of the victims are.

[dschis]

18. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Somehow I doubt they will release those

though watch for casualty names and units... for ahem clues

[tekisui]

21. It's fucked up.

If he is the shooter and is alive----at least one other person was killed as 'the shooter'.

If the shooter is dead----they have someone in a hospital they are going to pin it on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. The military is pretty good about IDs

so that would not quite wash... even if the Major exchanged dog tags... they come in pairs, and soldiers don't just wear them on their neck.

[Liberation Angel]

22. Well - I love a good conspiracy theory. Anybody got one? How about PSYOPS?

My initial thought after reading this was maybe they wanted him dead (and were not going to save him).

Maybe once the doctors working on him realized he was actually one of their own they saved him (or maybe I have watched too much House or Grey's Anatomy where doctor's lie for creepy reasons)

But I LOVE it when you speculate Nadin

what other reasons could there be?

Someone on another thread suggested he KNEW something.

MAYBE he was trained in PSYOPS and/or torture and KNEW something that set him off or that made him believe he was in danger himself.

Maybe his training was for horrors he could not support (he was trying to get out of it) and he snapped.

Suppose he WAS trained to do horrible things as a psychiatrist during the Bush era and/or he was MKULTRA's somehow?

It may well have been that SOMEONE wanted him dead and reported him dead with the intent that he BE dead (and failed to get to him before the doctors did).

I can see all sorts of good Fringe type or X File style possibilities.

I do not mean at all to diminish the horror of all these sad deaths, but in order to figure out WHY one needs an open mind.

Although I am reading Foucault's Pendulum By Umberto Eco and there is such a thing as being TOO open to conspiracies. Or Anything religious.

But I like where you are going.

Something VERY unusual about some of these facts...

Like the DC sniper case.

Troubling.

Homegrown.

Odd.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. It is the homegrown part that bugs me

and yes... this is very odd.

In ten years in EMS never saw something this strange or involving such high ranking people.

And trust me chaos is the rule in the early hour or so.

Perhaps it is time to take a full set of notes on this... always useful for fiction

:-)

[deaniac21]

24. Wow, you are really full of information!

[tridim]

29. There are lots of witnesses

Can the military legally keep them quiet?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. They are in uniform yes?

Therefore they can be given a legal lawful order.

The civilians may be a tad more problematic... but all soldiers... easy... you will shut the fuck up about what you saw and heard (insert rank and name here)

[TwilightGardener]

32. It's weird, and if I was the General, I'd be majorly pissed for being fed

misinformation that he then passed along as fact--if that's what happened.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. If that is the case heads will roll

But that may include his... this is poor Command and Control... in major ways.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I'm not the only one here going HMMM

. Micklesewsky just said that this was an incredible breakdown of communications...

This is a snafu...

I think I am onto something and I hope I am not.

He also said we will have to wait until the light of day and that nothing coming out of Ft Hood can be trusted.

[tekisui]

36. Are they still on lockdown?

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. No, that was lifted

:hi:

[Bonobo]

52. I think you are on to something. Makes NO sense.

No matter how I think of it, no amount of manipulation can help me come up with a scenario that would explain why:

1. They mistakenly thought the suspect was killed.
2. They mistakenly thought the 1st responder was killed
3. They thought 2 others were involved...but ooops, they weren't.

[Lagomorph]

35. People speaking out of turn....

Get to the camera and spin it before anybody else does.

It's on the net before the gov't can get a lid on it.

A lot of 2nd hand info from witnesses about the shooter is out.

This is going to create a lot of problems.

Heads will roll, but that looks more and more like an impotent, meaningless exercise in this age.

Anybody who gets fired goes on the talk shows and gets a book written before the buzz wears off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. A Lt General went on the cameras and said he was dead

and a few hours later the news changed 180 by the same Lt. General. This is not just usual leak, spin, process.

[peacetalksforall]

39. Funny, I read about the shooting late and when I heard his name I told myself

that I hope that someone was capturing the press reports and putting it in a timeline.

It's a little too much to take - two others arrested and then released. Shooter dead, now alive?

Did they give the two who were arrested a physical exam?

Fact, facts - we need facts and they will come.

It will be interesting to learn why there was a suspicion that the two had something to do with it.

Did they lock down the building and adjacent buildings and do a complete search?

Is it normal that the soldiers would be in this building with their guns?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Some facts

soldiers were not armed. Soldiers are usually NOT armed while in a military base unless in the front lines in a combat zone.

The whole base was locked down, not just those two facilities.

Now the time line is ahem... strange...

[GReedDiamond]

54. The shooter was a "psychiatrist,"....

...did anybody else besides myself hear that on the (Air America) Ron Reagan Show?

I heard it myself, with my own ears, on the Los Angeles Air America affiliate, KTLK 1150 AM (ClearChannel).

If the "psychiatrist" angle has already been noted, sorry 'bout the dupe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. No this came out early on

he was a psychiatrist trained within the US Military medical sysetm

[Neecy]

41. I smelled a rat, too

Bad communication doesn't cause someone to definitely state that the shooter is dead - and he gave lots of detail on this - and then the same guy glibly announces a few hours that the guy is still alive and will recover. Not even an "Oopsy, we were wrong" in the second statement.

They pulled a lot of crap with Tillman and pretty much got away with it. Who knows what they're doing now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. If it was a Captain, even a Major

ok fine... Public Information Officers do make oopsies and after one of those get transfer orders...

But this is the base commander...

Base Commanders do not make these ooopsies....

:-)

Oh and yes I have played PIO... and lord knows I made sure I had the UP TO DATE info and if I made a mistake told the press such.

Why this does indeed smell.

[Neecy]

45. So, what happened here?

Did they really kill the shooter and they're now going to frame up the nutbag Doctor?

Time to call in Perry Mason!

What I see here is a big, huge, massive CYA operation. Maybe they knew someone was going to blow and did nothing about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. CYA.... internal terrorism

your choice... and no they are not framing the doctor... but I suspect his survival was not convenient.

I mean dead suspects make wrapping cases oh so much easier.

[Ikonoklast]

42. And Pat Tillman was heroically killed single-handedly attacking an enemy position

I believe everything the military tells me, about everything, every time.

They never have a reason to lie, or cover up the truth, ever.

And they never fabricate false back-stories on anyone in the military that fucks up, ever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. And the story would have held if the family was not that nosy

I mean there is this PFC in the early days that fought them Iraqis. and would make Rambo proud... you know PFC Lynch.. but she actually survived. Live heroes make such poor heroes. They are so problematic, they usually do not stick to the script...

I know...

[Ikonoklast]

48. They are an Authoritarian organization.

They will do and say whatever they feel they need to do or say to put the organization in the best light.


The problem is, the rest of us are civilians, and don't have to take whatever line of bullshit they are selling at face value.

A General cannot invent truth as he sees fit, and expect the rest of us to salute, say, "Yes, Sir!", and forget it ever happened because we were ordered to.


Gen. Westmoreland comes to mind.

As does McChrystal.




Yeah, PFC Lynch, the one taken care of by Iraqi doctors, who actually sent someone out to find US soldiers to come get her.

But we 'stormed' the hospital to 'free' her from 'barbaric' conditions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. It is the ARMY chain of command comes with the territory

Now to best light... that is the nature of the organization and that is not just the army. That is ANY major organization, civilian, military, government does not matter.

[dixiegrrrrl]

47. Not to mentin Jessica Lynch, Remember that twisted story?

[bamacrat]

51. I flipped over to Faux for a sec and Shepard Smith had Hasans cousin on the phone...

He was saying that Hasan was not a violent person, didn't even like going to the shooting range. Said he hired a military lawyer because he was being harassed. Then it was around this time that the cousin started talking weird and stuttering. Then he was asked again if Hasan had any history of violence, the cousin laughed and said no. Then very abruptly he said he had to go that he had to attend to something then the phone cut off. Weird. Anyone else see that.

Don't really see this as a conspiracy but who knows thought this was odd though.

[Overseas]

59. Harassment of non-Christians stepped up in Bush's military.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488

[depakid]

60. "the cousin started talking weird and stuttering"

Third similarity with Virginia Tech (Hasan's alma mater)

Second Generation immigrant who felt alienated;

Two hanguns;

Abnormal speech patterns.

[AntiFascist]

53. I happened to see this story as it was breaking...

first there were two accomplices who had escaped and were being searched for, while sirens kept going off all over the base. One person who had been at Fort Hood many years said that they had never heard the sirens before, so this had to be something big. It seemed like several hours went by before any solid information was released.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. And the info that was released first

was that Hassan was killed by a Civilian Police Officer... that did not change. What changed is that both Hassan and the Civilian Police Officer survived.

That is what really had me going WTF is going on? A LT... yeah sure... even a Colonel... but this was the OIC for the whole base.

Oh and I heard those sirens too... I was in Navy housing at 9.11 and trust me, the base proper was on tight lockdown... but I don't remember any sirens, or anybody telling us a thing... (one of the complains actually)

[AntiFascist]

57. Another thread just pointed out...

there is now footage (from Anderson Cooper 360) of Hassan dressed in very traditional Muslim garb going into a 7-11, from this morning. How convenient, now he really looks like a Muslim.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. You know I suspect there is more to this story

and it will be buried under the two minutes of hate....