I wonder what the soldiers with PTSD told Hasan about what the US was doing in Iraq

[Nikki Stone1]

In an interview with his cousin, Hasan was said to be born in the US, educated in Northern Virginia and at VA Tech. He was a Muslim from birth, but at VA Tech he apparently put down "no preference" for religion. He chose to be in the military, against the wishes of his family. He majored in science at VA Tech and was sent to med school by the military. He was trained as a psychiatrist. So far so good.

Then he started treating people at Walter Reed.

Knowing what we know about the brutality in Iraq and the problems the military are having with contractors who don't follow any rules; knowing what we know about Abu Ghraib and the hidden photos; knowing what we know about the stop loss and constant deployment; and knowing how many soldiers are coming back mentally broken, is it ANY WONDER that Hasan didn't want to go over there? He probably knew more about what was going on in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars that most in the military: he was hearing about the insanity first hand.

And it may have been from these broken soldiers that Hasan learned about how illegal and immoral the war actually was.

It's clear that Hasan had been trying for the past 5 months, working his way up the chain of command, to avoid going to Iraq. I don't actually blame him for not wanting to go: he was no blind, gung ho recruit. He actually had inside information and knew what the other end of military service looked like.

And sympathizing with Iraqis? If his dealings with the soldiers made it clear that the reasons given for the war were false and if part of the PTSD of these soldiers was guilt for doing things that are indefensible, I can understand how Hasan might have seen the war from their perspective. He still, most likely, has family in Jordan.

I could have understood if all this had led Hasan to go AWOL or commit suicide or get into some other court martial offense.

I cannot understand blindly killing 11 people and injuring 30.

He must have finally snapped.

[mattvermont]

1. This is the right angle

to go with this story.
Reminds me of what really ended the Vietnam war... soldiers began killing their
commanding officers rather than follow the absurd orders. Something the Pentagon
would rather not explore too much.

[Nikki Stone1]

3. Fragging...

I remember that.

[valerief]

2. Seems that way. War damages. War kills. War profits the 1%. nt

[Nikki Stone1]

5. "I ain't no fortunate son"

:(

[tabatha]

4. He tried to get out of the military legally.

[Barack_America]

21. Could you explain further?

[tabatha]

23. check the video

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x398944

[stray cat]

25. After we paid for him to go to med school and paid room and board ie over 500,000

[Flaneur]

32. Hmm, looking back, it may have been better to eat that loss.

[chatnoir]

33. He wanted out and offered to repay his medical training

Tried getting a discharge for several years but they would not allow him to leave, according to WaPo.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/05/AR2009110505216.html?hpid=topnews

[Nikki Stone1]

35. They should have let him go.

Of course in hindsight....

[Bonobo]

6. Excellent post.

[dschis]

7. There were some outside influences at least

I'm still thinking that this guy was some kind of sleeper. During my decades in the military I've never seen a Army doctor that was that officiant with a weapon. I mean everyone is a soldier and can handle them, but Army doctors are trained to defend themselves, not to go offensive. Looking at the carnage, that qualifies as offensive.

[Nikki Stone1]

10. He went through ROTC and apparently had more weapons training than the average doctor

Now, of course, details are going to change through the next few days. We'll see what else we can learn.

[dschis]

15. True I didn't think of that

I've trained a couple of cadets on the pistol range myself

[ThomCat]

8. Very good post.

I very much doubt that any news show will frame this half as well as you did.

[NYC_SKP]

9. Excellent, asking the right questions about this.

:thumbsup:

On 9-11 I was a teacher and after watching some of the coverage I asked the kids why anyone would want to blow up the WTC.

Your OP reminds me of that, of asking the right questions.

K and R

[Nikki Stone1]

11. I'm just writing down the questions the media isn't asking

At least not yet.

[deaniac21]

12. This HAS to be the right angle. It couldn't have anything to do

with his religion.

[riderinthestorm]

13. This is a great post, great points BUT

no amount of rationalizing excuses his actions.

If he really didn't want to go, he should have just shot himself, or gone to prison, or gone awol as you said. His actions were coldblooded murder and attempted murder of many, many people.

DUers are kind people. I get that. Nobody wants to see Muslims demonized. Everyone understands this war's terrible consequences but after 8 years, 8 YEARS! this guy knew how to have gotten himself out of the military long before this episode if he truly felt the situation was THAT indefensible. He had to have known his turn to serve in either Afghanistan or Iraq was long overdue....

He only waits until he gets order to be deployed to go batshit on his fellow soldiers? That sounds more like cowardice than "snapped".

[Nikki Stone1]

18. It depends on what he knew, I think

I'm of the opinion that he did really snap. Of course, more details will be coming out and then we'll see.

[riderinthestorm]

19. I know. Everything is just speculation at this point.

What is impossible to ignore however is that the Bushco wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have been going on for as long as this guy's been in the service. If he was that deeply disturbed about the happenings going on over there, he's had an awfully long time to get out. No service people are going to escape going to a combat zone anymore. Don't tell me this lifer didn't realize that! No way. He knew it was only a matter of time for him. They're even sending over members of military bands as far as I can recall reading, as well as recalling people who have been long out of the service.

[Nikki Stone1]

30. I think it's all about what happened at Walter Reed.

As I said in the OP, he would be privy to all kinds of information about brutality and horror that your Army trumpet player would not be.

The one bit I am willing to speculate about is the experience at Walter Reed because the people he dealt with had PTSD and, possibly, other mental illnesses and brain injury. As a psychiatrist, he could prescribe psychotropic drugs, and it's possible that those didn't work for some of his patients. The horrors of war were in his office every day with his patients. I can totally understand the toll that took and the terror he had of going into a combat he knew was perversely and illegally brutal.

As to the certainty of combat: Hasan joined the military in the 90s, before stop loss and before the 3 and 4 tours of the average service person. He also might have felt that as a psychiatrist that the army wouldn't want to take the chance of having him killed in combat when they had spent so much to educate him for his specialization.

Now, am I excusing his actions today? No.

Do I think he snapped? Yes.

Do I think he should be court martialed and imprisoned? Absolutely.

[saged52]

14. yes, excellent compassionate summary

and my thoughts exactly

[polly7]

16. Thank you for this post.

It makes sense. Very tragic, so many families grieving tonight.

[NoSheep]

17. Excellent post, seconded. Tragedy that should be examined carefully

and realistically. Will it be? At least Rachel Maddow's show tried to.

[hedgehog]

20. If he didn't want to go to Iraq, he should have started by shooting

himself in the foot instead of shooting other people. I don't know who he did end up shooting, but I doubt that they were people with much power to change things.

[uppityperson]

22. That was what I was wondering also. Thank you.

[stray cat]

24. Maybe he was just mad he was getting sent to Iraq?

I'm not ready to call him a poor pitiable victim unless something shows he deserves it. Maybe he was against the war and he acted as an anti-war terrorist. Too soon to know.

Mass murderers are sometimes just mass murderers and not poor souls traumatized by a free ride to med school and now having to serve.

[madrchsod]

26. wow... an intelligent original message..thanks nikki!

if i had some money i`d give you a star.

[alittlelark]

27. I'm gonna post what I posted in another thread.

Who attacked because we refused to service our debt (or whatever). Would we bow down? What would we do?

This is an educated man who reached a breaking point - we are ALL capable of reaching a breaking point - his was on 'steroids'.


This country has done hideous things all over the world. Our military is 1/2 of our budget. We have bases in something like 120 countries.



We are the enemy to most of the oppressed and thinking world.


It sucks - so does blowback.



This was a very smart man that just plain 'LOST IT'. He's likely listened to hundreds of horror stories...............................




If we continue on our course there will be more. :evilfrown:

[Nikki Stone1]

31. Horror stories like raping children with broken bottles?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6931302&mesg_id=6931302

[niyad]

28. nikki, I was watching part of rachel's show-- and she had on a guy from salon.com

a mark (don't remember his last name) who said pretty much what you did, and it makes sense.

treating 'nam vets, I heard almost unimaginable horror stories, and I suspect that what is going on in iraq and afghanistan is worse.

who heals the healers?

[Nikki Stone1]

36. It's the most logical reason for what happened.

Thanks for letting me know. I'll look for Rachel tonight.

[AspenRose]

38. "Who heals the healers?" Indeed.

[flyarm]

29. Cathy O'Brien talks about VaTech. look her up! eom

[flamingdem]

34. Yes, he snapped

I just listen to second hand stories about the brutality in Iraq and I'm left nauseated and horrified. He heard it over and over every day.

[AspenRose]

37. K&R for common sense.