Are all Christians the enemies of all LGBT people?

[spoony]

I just want to know how widespread this belief is on DU. I doubt it is, but I could be wrong.

[WI_DEM]

1. Do you think that there are no LGBT Christians? I know many

[spoony]

3. No, not my view.

I'd be curious to see how the person who voted yes would respond to that, though.

[el_bryanto]

10. I think that the point is the Christians are the opponents of rational thought

Liberal Christians prop up a system of thoughtless devotion to a God that many believe is really bad for all humanity, not just the LGBT community.

or that would be my theory - as a believer I don't agree with it, but I understand where they are coming from.

Bryant

[spoony]

15. Alright, but even more than being about irrational thought

I think it's about insisting that all Christians are somehow bound by either what vocal Christian leaders do/say, or by what Paul or the OT said about, ostensibly, LGBTs. It's there where I really must disagree with such statements.

I know what you're saying though.

[closeupready]

17. Yeah, that's the thing, IMO.

I don't think Christianity is necessarily bad for all humanity, but I do think as interpretations of Christian scripture has been traditionally applied in practice, it is unquestionably homophobic.

That is changing, but only recently. Certainly, the pendulum could swing the other way. If it does, I wouldn't be surprised, nor would anyone else who is familiar with the history of Christianity and its relationship to Jews and gays both.

[jonnyblitz]

12. many of the gay folk on DU are christian. I don't notice too many

far left gay atheists such as myself around.

[endless october]

2. voted no. n/t

[BlueGirlRedState]

4. Episcopalians have a gay bishop (NT)

[JerseygirlCT]

54. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if we had more than one

But just one "openly" gay! :)

[Shell Beau]

71. Yes, and there were many openly gay active members of my Episcopal

church. The organ player was openly gay, as were many other members. I am no longer Episcopal. I am Methodist, and my church now also has many openly gay members. And this is in MS. Never once have I heard a sermon against gay people. I would walk out if I did. I can't say the same for most of the Baptist churches around here though.

[Mojambo]

5. No, but they're not allies either unless they stand up to their brothers/sisters in faith. n/t

[spoony]

7. Okay, that's a good starting point I think

What in particular should liberal Christians be doing? I know most of us belong to liberal congregations, if any at all, and obviously vote with LGBT equality issues. Should it be something more public?

[mdmc]

59. Love thy neighbors as you love yourself

follow the teachings of Christ and all is good.
I am pretty sure Jesus never talked about gay people..ever..

[TokenQueer]

91. I doubt that, since he probably was one...

See 'The Man Jesus Loved' by Theodore W. Jennings, Jr. for a fascinating read.



http://www.amazon.com/man-jesus-loved-Theodore-Jennings/dp/082981535X

On edit: added link and cover image.

[mitchtv]

22. I agree,. they bear A lot of responsiblilty

for abdicating the pulpits and riding quietly in the back of the bus while the nutbags drive Xianity through the gutter. They are not our allies to say the least

[SacredCow]

6. I have to say not.....

I personally know many Christians who don't subscribe to the hate-filled version of Christianity.

[elocs]

8. Using "all" makes your poll useless. The same would go for "none".

Christians are no more a giant same-think, same-believe monolith than Democrats are. Anyone who believes they are is simply ignorant, or prejudiced. Yes, there is a lot of self-righteous prejudice here at DU against any and all Christians and we have those who feel proud and noble about their prejudice.

[spoony]

11. Well the "all" is relevent to a particular point

It's there for a reason. We all know SOME are.

[onehandle]

9. It's widespread amongst the loudest DUers.

But just like teabaggers are to Republicans, they are a minority to most DUers.

I hope.

[Number23]

40. Exactly. The volume certainly does not equate to the actual numbers.

[closeupready]

13. The obvious answer to the nonsense question is clearly no.

A more informative question/poll would have been, Are Christians generally homophobic?

I think the answer to that is unquestionably yes.

[spoony]

18. Then start that poll. I'd vote no.

Unless you said "Christian leadership" or the like. But my question, you'd THINK it's nonsense but apparently some agree with it.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. Other: Yep

[David Zephyr]

16. I am coming to that conclusion. There's little to suggest otherwise.

It is Christians who have funded every intiative against GLBT Americans, it is Christians who have whipped up hatred and violence against my GLBT brothers and sisters, it is Christians who have driven their own children to suicide and/or thrown them out to the streets as my Christian family did to me.

Yep. I've never seen evidence to the contrary.

I do think that, with very rare exeptions, that they are the enemies of GLBT people.

[closeupready]

19. Sadly, I agree.

n/t

[spoony]

21. My friend, you mentioned upthread that

the traditional use of the religion's interpretations against gay people were changing, no? I agree with that, I SEE it happening. So I'm a bit confused by what you're agreeing with in the above.

[closeupready]

28. Well, I agree that in this country and Europe, it is Catholics, Mormons, Baptists

and Knights of Columbus who, from what I understand, have financed many of these anti-gay marriage campaigns. And I'm not just talking about the past 20 years, I'm talking hundreds of years.

I guess the part I would disagree with is "with rare exceptions" - I don't think exceptions of pro-gay Christians are necessarily 'rare', but they are uncommon, from my experience.

And certainly, those who are secretly pro-gay but continue to patronize congregations headed by homophobic leaders are doing gay and lesbian people no favors by tacitly approving of their pastor's homophobia by remaining silent.

[spoony]

30. Understood. nt

[elocs]

20. And you can prove "very rare exceptions" how? Or is that speculation?

Does anyone have actual numbers? "All" means every single one without exception because as soon as there is even 1 exception "all" goes out the window.

Last time I heard, President Obama was a Christian.

[spoony]

23. Well, I've seen people say Obama

is no kind of friend to LGBT people, and worse. So in some minds, I imagine he'd be an enemy as well.

[David Zephyr]

26. I'm coming to that conclusion. Does that bother you that I don't like your Jesus very much?

How Christianesque of you attempting to browbeat me.

Thank you: You are helping me, as I wrote, to come to that conclusion.

But if you are a believer, you'd better be careful though, because your very Bible warns you in Matthew 18:6 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." Of course, I don't believe in any of that nonsense, but you might...

So, you might be pissing Jesus off by wagging that finger at me.

Today, you contributed to my unbelief in your Jesus. Be sure to report that to him tonight when you pray.

[spoony]

29. To what conclusion though?

Do you not interact with Christians here? Do you really think we're all complicit in RWers trying to suppress civil rights? I don't care, personally, what you think about Jesus. I DO care that you think DUer and liberal Christians aren't on your side, because I don't understand it. Nor do I get the snarky jabs, why bother with that petty shit? It boils down to one thing: are we on the same damn side or not. I think so, what about you?

[David Zephyr]

33. Read the OP.

That's "the conclusion".

[spoony]

37. "I've never seen evidence to the contrary."

What constitutes evidence then? Isn't what I just said contrary to your conclusion?

[David Zephyr]

45. Show me this evidence:

When the Catholic Church and the Mormons and the Baptists and the Assembly of God and Fred Phelps all get down on their knees and publicly beg for forgiveness for the murders and violence and hatred they have whipped up all these years against innocent GLBT Americans...

When the above open up food banks, without any proselytizing or "witnessing", to simply cater to the broken lives of GLBT children (their victims) who are now living on the streets and selling their bodies for a meal...

When the above fork over a greater amount of billions of dollars than they have spent and used cruelly against GLBT Americans....

When that happens, in other words when your "hell" freezes over, then that will be "evidence" to me that Christians are not the enemy of GLBT Americans.

Call me when it happens. Bring me that evidence.

Until then, I'll believe what I believe about your sect.

[spoony]

81. So I'd have to turn every Christian, including the RWers,

into Christians like me in order for you to accept that any Christian is not your enemy.

There's nothing more for me to do. I tried reaching out. I tried explaining my support. So, alright. I guess that's that.

[David Zephyr]

85. When one has to even ask if people believe that "every" Christian is hateful, it admits the problem.

Think about the question you posed in your OP: "Are all Christians the enemies of all LGBT people?"

I ask you this: Is that how pathetic the Christian sect has become to where they now need to showcase that there may be a small minority within that group that might not actually be hateful bigots? Ponder that for just a moment. Consider the self-condemning basis of the question you posed.

Spoony, if I go to my refrigerator and pull out a loaf of bread and see that there is mold growing on 99.5% of the loaf, I don't pick out the slices that might possibly still be good. I toss the whole loaf out.

You write that you have tried to "reach out" to me. That's a form of proselyting which I find offensive. What is it about Christians that they feel so obligated to spotlight their religion as if they were NASCAR drivers showing off their brands?

You should spend your time trying to "reach out" to that 99.5% of your sect that seems to me to be hateful and bigoted.

Consider: If you are trying in earnest to make a point here that not "all" Christians -- in other words, not 100% -- are the enemies of the GLBT community, then that in and of itself should signal to you that there is way too much energy, money and passion within Christendom that is being used as a weapon against GLBT Americans. Am I to congratulate you that a very small and apparently very quiet group of Christians disagree with what the great majority of your sect does? I actually hold those of you who claim to be liberal Christians more responsible than the hateful majority for the billions spent against GLBT Americans, for the hate speech from the altars that destroy the psyches of GLBT children and youth.

Proselytize within your sect instead of trying to do PR to those of us who know first hand what the Church has done to us by the example of what your sect has done all these many years.

You made your point that not "all" Christians are "enemies" of the GLBT community. Now, I ask you this: Does that make you proud of your fellow Christians that you have to assert that extremely arcane point to a gay man like myself? What is it within you that needs the affirmation from this gay man that not "all" of you are bad?

I think that Jesus would sum up your argument well "They strain at a gnat and swallow a camel." Your straining to showcase that gnat of truth in your argument that not "all" Christians are hateful to me has you swallowing the camel of evidence that most all Christians are so.

I would suggest that there's a few generarions of work to do within your sect before trumpeting to me any goodness in it. Start a thread about that here. Your work is with Christians, not with me.

Spoony, when you take that giganitic, mega-church size beam out of Christianity's eye, you will be able to see more clearly to take the little mote that may be in mine.

[spoony]

106. Ok, you're offended I tried to make peace with you.

There's nothing more I can say to you, then.

[elocs]

42. Sorry mate, I am at best a deist like our Founding Fathers. Trying to pass off opinion as fact, eh?

My conclusion is that you don't know what you are talking about, but you are more than willing to speculate.

[David Zephyr]

56. You want to know what is "speculating"?

Believing in something that doesn't exist. That's speculating at it grandest.

[NeedleCast]

86. Your explanation is applicable to so many things though

Since 80+% of American citizens self-identify as Christian, you could just as easily say Christains voted Obama into office.

[gatorboy]

24. I've known several LGBT Christians.

One was my son's scout leader (My wife and I were leaders for the Webelos)

[Ozymanithrax]

25. There are people who believe that allowing gays equal rights is the right thing to do...

even if they feel that God says no.

Therea re many who are not. Some of them are OK with everything but marriage, civil unions. But there are Christians who believe that God does not allow a person to have sex with a member of the same sex, under any circumstsances.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. only the ones who keep staying in churches that denigrate gays

and contribute in terms of money, power and numbers

[closeupready]

32. and also those who object but attend, and combine that with silence

in the face of homophobic bullshit from their pastors and priests.

[David Zephyr]

35. Silence is complicity.

You are correct.

[closeupready]

38. I just realized, that was ACT-UP's motto, wasn't it?

Silence = Death.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. And

Knowledge=Life

[spoony]

39. Can't argue with that.

People uncomfortable with bigotry from their religious leaders need to follow that instinct and leave. There are plenty of liberal congregations and worship communities out there where one can go and leave with a clear conscience.

[David Zephyr]

112. Now you are talking, spoony.

And, if I dare say it, I bet that what you suggested is probably what Jesus would do, too. ;-)

[onehandle]

76. Ah. The purist argument. America contributes money, power and numbers to constant war.

So, if you are against that, you'd better leave.

Or maybe stay and work for change. Maybe?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

80. yes, because clearly changing churches and changing citizenship are exactly the same thing

what an intellectually dishonest argument

[noiretextatique]

31. some chrisitans are LGBT people

http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

[spoony]

34. Quite right.

I don't know how the 8 who voted yes would reconcile that. Maybe one would like to comment?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. there are many who feel that religion even moderate religion feeds into

homophobia & misogyny.

it provides the basis for the right wing version of their religion to wreak havocs in our lives. in an academic sense i agree with them but in a pragmatic sense i dont

i dont think humans need religion to perpetuate hate. its just a good excuse

were in not for religion we would find something else. however, religion is the HARDEST to argue against because by its nature it requires you to believe things that are not provable

[Behind the Aegis]

36. The only "all" of any groups which are enemies of GLBT people are homophobic bigots.

I have even met very religious persons who are very supportive of GLBT rights.

[spoony]

41. Thanks for your input, all.

I have to get ready to go to work. I honestly want our LGBT brothers and sisters to know that however hurt you've been by nasty people irresponsibly using religion's power to hurt and oppress you, that we are honestly not all in cahoots with them. Please don't let them sour you on all of us. Let's move forward, together, not apart.

[Prism]

43. Are all Republicans our enemies?

It's a little interesting, these poll questions, when affiliations are generally defended to the hilt - unless it's Republicans. You generally don't see threads defending that affiliation. Yet, with Christianity, of course we must spend the appropriate time declare "Well, not all of them . . ."

Here's the deal. All Christians aren't homophobic. Neither are all Republicans, actually. There are many nice examples of each, and I'm personally acquainted with many of them.

However, institutionally these two ideologies are at the heart of the political and religious hatred currently driving homophobia and enshrining inequality in American law. While we all know liberal and moderate examples, it is simply fantasy and denial to cite those examples as a way of side-stepping the Goliath in the room - these belief systems, on a national level, are responsible for the abhorrent treatment of entire classes of citizens. Anyone who associates with them are being necessarily painted as supportive, at least tangentially, of the great wrongs and violations against equality. By putting their name to the larger cause, they are endorsing it on some level.

I'm sorry. Sometimes you really like that liberal Republican representative. And sometimes you know this great liberal Christian pastor. But that's locally. Once you get them all together, somehow the poor, the weak, those in most need of protection end up villainized, victimized, and shoved down into the sewers of society.

No amount of "Well, I know some nice ones who aren't like that" can minimize that reality or paper over the fundamental problems inherent in these belief systems, how they contribute to our continued inequality, and how they erode the fundamental freedoms American law and society should be based upon.

Everything else is just exceptionary masturbation.

[LooseWilly]

57. I agree... "there are some good ones".

I mean, statistically... there have to be at least 3, right?


Exceptionary Masturbation... now that's a fine turn of phrase that "handily" sums up the use of the word all in the poll. ;)

[Sebastian Doyle]

44. Real Christians (those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ) don't hate anybody.

Most of the fundagelical crowd probably never even open their Bibles, and the only scripture they know are the cherry picked verses passed out to them by their pastor on Sunday, and those are spun to whatever context he feels like.

And then you have the Phelps cult, and those assholes in Tempe Arizona, who have absolutely not even the loosest connection to anything resembling Christianity as JC taught it.

[David Zephyr]

47. Then I've never met a "real christian".

As the old saying goes: "Jesus was OK, it's his fan club I can't stand."

[Bluebear]

48. ' I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

Gandhi

Good to see you, DZ

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. wow! nice to see you bluebear

[David Zephyr]

53. I love that quotation by Gandhi.

I came back and see you have, too.

Don't leave. Missed you.

[NMMNG]

67. You realize, of course

that the RRRW assholes who preach against rights for LGBT citizens, reproductive choice for women and everything else progressives stand for, consider themselves Real Christians. They claim that the Liberals are not Real Christians because they don't interpret the Bible "literally", they ignore the passages that say gay people are an abomination, etc, etc.

Read about the No True Scotsman fallacy before wandering into the "Real Christian" land. It's all too easy to dismiss the RRRWers as "not Real Christians" so as to pretend Christians aren't supporting hate and harm toward others, but it's a dangerous mistake.

[TommyO]

46. As a gay person, no, no, no, no, and NO!

I know many good Christians who want fully equal treatment under law for gay people and who work towards that, I know many gay Christians.

[seabeyond]

50. thank you. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

52. TommyO

thanks for that... the reactionism and broad-brush anger is hard to see.

I would think that everyone here is fully supportive and eager for fully equal treatment for GLBT people.

[TommyO]

65. Sadly, not all DUers are supportive of gay people and our rights

You'll find it on almost any of the longer threads pertaining to gay people here

[JerseygirlCT]

69. I just find that so hard to understand

there are some issues that to me are just "no-brainers". Equal rights? And the problem with treating all people like people is what, exactly?

Sorry... I just don't get it!

But I do thank you for your post.

[mdmc]

58. love conquers all

Jesus Christ would be comforting AIDS patients in a ghetto if he was alive on earth today..

[JerseygirlCT]

60. +1 nt

[seabeyond]

64. yup. nt

[Warpy]

61. What a silly question!

There are plenty of LGBT friendly churches out there and LGBT people are filling some of the pews in them.

[NMMNG]

62. Of course not

But sadly our allies are much like the Dems. They tend to prefer to sit quietly in the wings and be silent about their distaste for the bigots and their hatred rather than speak up, lest they upset anybody or "rock the boat". Then it seems that "all Christians" are represented by the loud, brash, hateful, bigoted pieces of crap that are out there saying denouncing LGBT people and screaming for the eradication of their rights.

It's not helping us that the only "voices of faith" we hear in public, by and large, are the ones that are against us. We need our allies to fight loudly for us or we will continue to be doomed. And once they're done slamming us into the ground they'll look for another target. Always they need an enemy, and their next one could be anybody....

[Geek_Girl]

63. There are Welcoming Christian churches

Some even have LGBT in their Clergy. I would just say most christian churches are not welcoming to LGBT.

[Kievan Rus]

66. Utter nonsense. Just as rotten as saying all Muslims are the enemies of women

[Toasterlad]

74. I Don't Get Your Point.

[gleaner]

68. I picked no .....

I'm a Quaker and we are Christians, although not in the way I think you mean. We accept all people as equal, period. Recently it was announced that Gays and Lesbians are welcome to marry in our meetings (churches). Now all we have to do is to get the civil authorities on board, and in California it is one of our leadings to do that.

Personally I also think that LGBT people should have the same civil rights that I do. I do not understand the need by people to demonize others whom they consider to be "different." We are all human and not that different at all.

[Shell Beau]

70. No way. That is ridiculous. I am a Christian, and I fully

support equality for ALL. Furthermore, I know gay people who are Christians. Not every Christian is a fundie.

[Toasterlad]

72. Okay. No Snark.

It wasn't necessary for you to post this poll to prove that most people don't believe that all christians are the enemies of GLBT people. I already know that most people don't believe that. Very few GAY people believe that.

I believe religion is for intellectually lazy people who are scared of their own mortality, although I'll acknowledge that there are some people much smarter than me who I believe are devoutly religious. I believe that evil men and women use religion to prey on the gullible and the hopeless. And I believe that even the most benign religion promotes feelings of superiority, which leads to exclusion, and, eventually, outright malice. Nearly every religion allows or encourages its believers to assume that they are morally superior to NON-believers. Therefore, non-believers are regarded with contempt, and, often, hostility.

But all of that is fine, to a point. If religion is only hurting those who willfully embrace it, then I have no problem with it. I'm actually a big believer in letting everyone do their own thing.

Sadly, the vast majority of Western religions don't return the favor. They demonize gay people and extol their vast armies of gullible simpletons to hate and fear us, to legislate our rights away, and to make it as hard as possible for us to go about our lives with any pride or dignity.

If you contribute money to the catholic church, you are funding hate against gay people (among others). If you contribute money to the latter day saints, you are funding hate against gay people. If you contribute money to one of the thousands of other christian denominations, you are likely funding hate against gay people. It doesn't matter how you, yourself, may feel about gay people. It doesn't matter how many equality marches you go to or how many PFLAG meetings you attend. You are providing the funds for the machinery that helps keep us down.

Yes, there are christian denominations that do NOT promote hate for gay people, that do NOT contribute money to anti-gay causes, that even welcome gay people into their congregations and their clergy. But the brand name of christianity is used in this country as a bludgeon against gay people: when bigots stand up at town hall meetings and write to their Congressman and call their Senator and talk about how gays are a menace to this christian nation, they don't specify denomination. They invoke ALL of christianity. And everyone who calls themselves a christian feeds the power of that invocation. You may object to being used in such a way, but you are being used just the same. And when that Republican Senator or Democratic President gets up in front of a microphone and says that his faith doesn't permit him to accept same-sex marriage - AND THEREFORE, IT SHOULDN'T BE THE LAW - they are speaking for you. Whether you like it or not.

I know that there are good people in the world who are christians; some of them are my friends and family. I don't hate them, and I don't believe they hate me. Nevertheless, in a very real way, they ARE my enemy. They are supporting - indirectly, but still supporting - the agenda that is out to keep gays second class citizens. At BEST.

I'm aware of the degrees. My cousin Joan, a devout catholic, is not Fred Phelps. My co-worker Cosima is not Pat Robertson. But they - and all the other christians I know - are still part of the problem, not the solution.

On edit: I should add that I'm fully aware that I'm a religious bigot. Much has been done in the name of religion to personally harm me, so I don't feel particularly badly about my feelings of contempt for religion. Those who accuse me of being intolerant toward religion are absolutely on the mark. I will only say that I have NEVER voted to remove rights from christians or any other religious group, nor have I ever donated any money to any organization attempting to abolish christianity or any other religion, although I would be DELIGHTED to donate to any organization trying to strip tax exempt status from any religious body that donates to any political cause or otherwise attempts to infulence ANY election, referendum or other method of governing this country. If you know of such an organization, please, by all means, let me know.

[closeupready]

75. Whoa. Agree from the first word to last. +1000.

Except I don't believe that makes you a religious bigot or intolerant. It's reality you point out.

It is what it is.

[Shell Beau]

78. I agree with you, and I am a Christian. I think many people

who are for gay rights tend to look past that part of their religion. It is sad but true.

[spoony]

83. I understand most of that.

Obviously I don't agree with a majority of your second paragraph, but your other points are well taken. While I'd love for everyone on this site who is fighting for the same things to be cozy with each other and not have these barriers between us--it sucks to have other liberals looking askance at me as much as it sucks to, as you put it, be used by the voices of bigots--I guess it is how it is. But I know that feeling isn't in the same galaxy as being denied basic civil rights. I hope there is a time when all of this is made right.

[Toasterlad]

99. "I hope there is a time when all of this is made right."

On that, we are agreed.

[TokenQueer]

94. Yeah...what he said.

:thumbsup:

[Lagomorph]

73. Some people are simply looking for enemies.

You see it on the extreme right and the extreme left.

98% of us have to stand between them to keep them away from each other.

There are many who try to "pin the hate" on moderates or anyone else not ready to burn down the cities and put people against the wall.

What I've found disturbing, but amusing, is the videos of the "soccer moms" going full thug on the opposition.

[saltpoint]

77. Not all Christians are straight; not all straights are Christian; not all

Christian straights are either.

The demographic alphabet soup is crowded and bottomless and it defies just about any label there is, including the ones I've used in this post.

[onehandle]

79. My neighbors are a gay Christian couple.

They were both in the military and are more Conservative than my wife and I in some ways.

And more Christian.

Just sayin'.

[rucky]

82. I voted the first one

just for kicks.

[Vidar]

84. No, but unfortunately fundie & Catholic bigots get all the press.

[Nye Bevan]

87. LGBT people have *much* worse enemies than Christians

Talk to me about Christians being the enemies of LGBT people when gay men are executed in public in Vatican City.


http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexuality.htm

According to a pamphlet produced by Al-Fatiha, there is a consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally heterosexual. Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be a sinful and perverted deviation from the norm. All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful. They differ in terms of penalty:

The Hanafite school (currently seen mainly in South and Eastern Asia) teaches that no physical punishment is warranted.

The Hanabalites, (widely followed in the Arab world) teach that severe punishment is warranted.

The Sha'fi school of thought (also seen in the Arab world) requires a minimum of 4 adult male witnesses before a person can be found guilty of a homosexual act. Al-Fatiha estimates that 4,000 homosexuals have been executed in Iran since their revolution in 1979. 10 public executions of homosexuals have been performed in Afghanistan by the Taliban army.

[David Zephyr]

89. So that's your standard? American Christians at least are not executing us?

Wow. This gay guy is sooo grateful to you for that.

Great observation.

That's truly a great thing American Christians can be proud of: they are not executing us publicly.

Jesus will be proud of you tonight when you talk to him how you stood up for him.

[Nye Bevan]

90. It's not my "standard"

It just seems weird to focus on Christians being the "enemy" of gay people (as the OP did) when the leaders of another major religion want to execute you in public. Any Christian who does not follow the principle of "love thy neighbor as thyself" is not a true Christian.

[David Zephyr]

92. Thank you for telling me which hateful acts against gay people that I should "focus" on.

Maybe you can drop into the GLBT forum and drop your suggestions there, too.

[Nye Bevan]

93. So who do you think is the worse enemy of gay people?

Christians, some of whom have contributed financially to organized campaigns to deny you the right to marry?

Or Islamists, who want to execute you in public?

[TokenQueer]

95. A huge number of christians in the U.S. would be thrilled at the thought of killing gays in public.

Hosanna.

[spoony]

98. How could you even begin to back that up with evidence?

Is there some poll I'm unaware of?

[David Zephyr]

97. American Christians who lecture me that I should be grateful that they're not killing me.

1.) At least an Islamist might tell you to your face that they hate you and want to kill you.

2.) American Christians tell you they love you to your face and then do everything but kill you.

3.) But back to your question of who is worse: Worst of all, are pontificating, self-righteous American Christians who actually think gay people should be kissing their sanctimonious, self-congratulating asses with gratitude in how we are not being murdered by them in public.

[Nye Bevan]

104. Hmmm.

So if you were given the choice of (1) halting Islamic executions of gays, or (2) putting a stop to the "pontificating" of "self-righteous Christians", you would choose (2). I guess you must *really* dislike those pontificating Christians.

[spoony]

107. All I know is the guy was offended by my saying we were on the same side

He literally said my trying to find common ground with him was "proselytizing" him. I don't know what to do with someone so bent on discord.

[Toasterlad]

109. Oh, Please.

Are you really trying to make the case that gay people shouldn't be pissed off about having our fucking rights withheld in this country because gay people are being killed in other countries?

Do you realize how much of an asshole that makes you sound like?

The fact that muslims committ attrocities against gay people in no way excuses the attrocities that CHRISTIANS committ against gay people. And muslims DIDN'T contribute en masse to the the funding of hate in California and Maine. Christians, specifically catholics, mormons, and baptists, DID. And the funding of hate in California and Maine is what is under discussion, here. If you want to start a thread elsewhere about how christians are swell because they don't murder gays in the street, you be my fucking guest.

You are the very WORST kind of religious person. Refusing to take responsibility for your faith, and looking around for someone else doing something worse so you can say, "He's killing people! That guy over there! Not us!". Teh very least you could do is acknowledge the terrible injusticies committed against gay people by the christians in this country.

Didn't your boss have something to say about sin and casting the first stone?

[Nye Bevan]

110. I am the *worst* kind of religious person?

I would respectfully disagree. I personally think the worst kind of religious person is someone who thinks it is right to execute people because they are gay. These tend to be the same people who think they will be rewarded with 72 virgins in the after-life for carrying out suicide bombings.

I am disgusted that Obama has not suspended DADT with the stroke of a pen (as is his right). I am proud that my state of Connecticut is one of the first to grant gays full marriage rights. One day the vast majority of people will look back upon this era with the same disgust with which we remember the anti-miscegenation laws.

I just don't think it's fair to attack Christians as the enemies of gay people while overlooking a religion with billions of adherents which advocates executing them.

[Toasterlad]

111. The Purpose Of This Thread Was To Discuss Christians and Gay People

If you want to discuss muslims and gay people, you should start your own thread.

Christians ARE the enemies of gay people, in that they are deliberately and systematically attempting to strip us of all legal rights and protections. That is fucking EVIL. If you want to debate the degrees of evil between what christians do to gays and what muslims do to gays, knock yourself out. That won't make christians any less evil.

The fact that you have the nerve to whine about what is "fair" to a gay person three days after what happened in Maine is a shining example of the christian view of the world. There's you, and then there are the people who don't count.

[David Zephyr]

113. Damn. I am growing to like you, Toasterlad.

With you here, maybe I can retire now.

[Prism]

101. What about African Christians?

They're not exactly much different from Islamic treatment of LGBTers you detail. I don't disagree with you that Islam treats LGBTers abhorrently, and I do think there's a kind of multicultural mental block among certain segments of westerners, where we want to be tolerant and in order to do so must overlook some of the more egregious cultural mores that are so entirely medieval in nature. However, you generally won't find those attitudes in the gay community. If you remember, the execution of Iranian youths was a much discussed story worldwide. Pictures of those two gay youths being fitted for nooses has been circulated on the internet nearly as much as Matthew Shephard's photographs.

The community is aware and highly condemnatory. We do talk about those cases in the GLBT forum, and if you skim through the past year, you'll see that we do not paper over what goes on in other cultures across the world.

However, because America is super majority Christian, our more direct issues and inequality necessarily focuses on that religion, as it is the one most directly tied to the hardship American LGBTers face.

[undeterred]

88. I will not go to any church that is not inclusive of gays.

Not just as Christians, but as having marriage equality and being qualified for ordination.

The nature of god is inclusive.

[TheKentuckian]

96. Nice douchebag bigot poll-unreced

What are you trying to do, piss off people that support equality to the point that you create a self fulfilling prophecy?

[spoony]

100. Classy.

Thanks for your valuable input. Try reading the thread, maybe you'll gain some insight.

[TheKentuckian]

103. I read your bigoted poll. A reaction shouldn't be a surprise (nt)

[spoony]

105. You obviously read nothing else.

And your "reaction" is juvenile and pouty. If you read anything from me in this thread you'd know why your swooning claim of bigotry is laughable to me.

[LanternWaste]

102. When DU has made up its collective mind...

When DU has made up its collective mind, would someone please PM me of the decision so I'll know if I'm the enemy or just another poster trying to get a better grip on contemporary and progressive politics?

It's important for me to know where you guys think I stand, right? -- I'll need to get t-shirts with the appropriate slogans, will need to know if my protest placards should utilize correct spelling or not, will need to know if I have to change from my Richie Cunningham haircut to a mullet. Lots and lots of changes will be in store depending on where you guys tell me I stand on all this.

I mean, I certainly wouldn't want to burst anyone's imaginary, archetypal caricature of what I may or may not be. That would just be in bad form. And it would certainly help me out too-- I didn't think I had any enemies, nor did I think I was anyone's enemy. But for all I know, I could very well be Hitler after some Vulcan mind-wipe and am slowly regaining my sensibilities.

Boogha! Booga booga!

ed: sp

[KamaAina]

108. That'd be a big, fat No.

First off, the MCC is a Christian denomination that is composed overwhelmingly of LGBT people. So your thesis fails right off the bat.

Also, I attended an interfaith marriage equality rally Monday night that included speakers from the following Christian denominations: Evangelical Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, and -- wait for it -- Latter-day Saints. None of them could be considered "an enemy of all LGBT people".