Kerry, Teddy & Hatch Want Xian Scientist Prayers Reimbursed as MEDICAL Procedures!

[stopbush]

Unfucking believeable:

Healthcare provision seeks to embrace prayer treatments
A little-noticed measure would put Christian Science healing sessions on the same footing as clinical medicine. Critics say it violates the separation of church and state.

The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah).

By Tom Hamburger and Kim Geiger
LA Times: November 3, 2009


Reporting from Washington - Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses.

The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist.

The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare."

It would have a minor effect on the overall cost of the bill -- Christian Science is a small church, and the prayer treatments can cost as little as $20 a day. But it has nevertheless stirred an intense controversy over the constitutional separation of church and state, and the possibility that other churches might seek reimbursements for so-called spiritual healing.

Phil Davis, a senior Christian Science Church official, said prayer treatment was an effective alternative to conventional healthcare.

More here:
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-na-health-religion3-2009nov03,0,6879249,full.story

Can you believe this fucking bullshit??!!

Where does it end? Aren't all prayers just as effective - which is to say, INEFFECTIVE? If the Xian scientists get reimbursed for prayers, why not every other religious schister? So, Aetna, Blue Cross and the rest will now be sending payments to religious wackos in lieu of money sent to reimburse actual medical treatments? And the rest of us will see our premiums go up to help offset the expenses the insurance companies incur from having to cover fucking prayers as medicine. In the meanwhile, the insurance companies are still free to not cover actual, science-backed medical procedures because they are "experimental" or "not mainstream" or "risky" or whateverthefuck they wish to term them to deny coverage to patients.

[TwilightGardener]

1. "Prayer treatments can cost as little as $20 per day"--

But they're worth far less. I can't believe this is happening, and that two big-name Dems are behind it. We deserve whatever bashing we get if this isn't immediately yanked from the bill.

-edit for sudden inexplicable bout of dyslexia.

[joeycola]

2. what were they thinking!!

[TwilightGardener]

3. They were thinking "campaign donations", since apparently that church

is headquartered in Massachusetts. But someone was bound to catch it. Orrin Hatch, who knows what he was thinking.

[joeycola]

8. Yes, I see that. Still, my sentiment applies. damm!!

[blm]

14. I doubt it - Kennedy would have included it out of personal friendship for Hatch

and trade for support of overall bill. Kerry would support Kennedy's positions in HELP bill as he promised to Kennedy earlier this year.

I highly doubt church donations drove either Kennedy or Kerry.

[TwilightGardener]

16. I hope not, but I also hope they don't truly believe this is a good idea, either.

[blm]

27. you think what few bucks this church would throw (if any) would dictate to them

Didn't happen. Wouldn't happen.

[stopbush]

21. And Teddy should have said, "Listen, Orrin, I won't make fun of your magic underwear

but I am not going to back elevating religious mumbo jumbo to the level of established science. Now, go fuck yourself...and I hope your insurance covers the dick lengthening procedure you'll need to be able to fuck yourself."

[Canuckistanian]

49. $20 for performance art, AFAIC

Someone "praying at you" does not constitute medicine.

[Lance_Boyle]

4. Given that prayer has been documented ineffective in medicine,

I'd think it fairly simple for any and all insurers to classify it as "not healthcare." The BLATANTLY STUPID provision inserted by Orrin the Hatch would only require insurers to CONSIDER covering this nonsense. The insurers can consider it to be not healthcare.

[stopbush]

Would Xian Science "practitioners" be subjected to the same oversights

as are real doctors? Would they need to carry malpractice insurance? Would they be subject to disbarment or having their religious license suspended if they screwed up (and how does one judge if a prayer was screwed up?)? Would their methods and procedures be subject to FDA approval? Would their claims of effectiveness mean that they would have to show evidence for said claims as do real medicines and real medical procedures? Would their "healing" methods be open to class action suits?

My guess? Nope - it's fucking religion, so it gets to trollop along on its merry, assholeish way without worrying about REALITY.

[stopbush]

25. Actually, prayer has been shown to be detrimental in medical treatment,

at least as it relates to recovery from procedures.

So, it's worse than ineffectual.

[karynnj]

37. link please

The only downside is if it is in lieu of treatment.

It can be helpful in the same way a placebo is if the patient believes it is.

[stopbush]

40. Here ya go:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

BTW - it took me all of 3 seconds to enter a search to find this article. It would have taken you no longer to do it yourself. I'd appreciate your doing your own research in the future.

Further BTW - uh, do you have a link supporting your claim that "the only downside is in lieu of treatment?" Thanks.

[noiretextatique]

5. i am all for reimbursement for alternative and complimentary care

such as massage, reiki, acupuncture, hypnosis, etc. but this proposal is simply ridiculous.

[stopbush]

7. I am only for reimbursement for treatments that can show documented PROOF

of their effectiveness through blind testing and all other scientific testing that REAL medicine goes through. opinions and beliefs don't cut it. Show me the EVIDENCE (not the hearsay) that proves the method is an effective, non-placebo procedure/treatment and I say it should be covered.

BTW - there is no such thing as "alternative" medicine. It is either tested and proven medicine or it is a belief. Beliefs may prove out to be medicines through testing, but until they are, they are not medicine.

[arcane1]

9. Word.

[noiretextatique]

24. have you ever had cancer?

i have...i had breast cancer. i had radiation and i take tamoxifen. but...if i didn't have acupuncture and reiki to deal with the emotional and mental stress of having cancer, none of those proven treatments would have done any good. guess why, if you like. and furthermore, if i hadn't had the presence of mind to question a treatment a doctor proposed, i might have had an UNPROVEN medical treatment, one recommended by a doctor, and one my insurance company would pay for. do you know the bush FDA was approving treatments, medications and devices that were not fully vetted via REAL SCIENTIFIC STANDARDS? here's the NY Times story about it...i am the first person mentioned in that story.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/27/health/policy/27device.html

my naturopath told me to get my Vitamin D levels tested, something my oncologist, breast surgeon, and primary care physician didn't think to do. of course i was deficient in Vitamin D. my herbalist gave me a tincture that cleared up a rash, something my doctor wasn't able to do. it never cease to amaze me: people are so closed-minded when it comes to anything remotely "alternative" when the conventional medical profession, from my experience, is pretty much a big guessing game.

of course, proposing to pay for one type of religious prayer is also absurd.

[stopbush]

28. My wife had breast cancer surgery back in 2005. She followed the prescribed

medical treatments post-operation, ie: chemo and radiation. Her cancer has been in remission ever since (knock on wood). Her most recent check-up was great. Her doctor recommended a change in her diet along with weight loss and exercise to keep things on a good track.

The FDA should NOT be approving un-vetted treatments, procedures, medicines, etc. That was the bush FDA. I trust the FDA has returned to a reality based outlook.

As far as "the conventional medical profession (being) pretty much a big guessing game" - what an absurd and, frankly, idiotic statement. Was polio eradicated through guessing? How about the millions of surgical procedures that are done every day? Are they guesses? How about nutritional studies? Cigarettes causing cancer? Setting broken bones? All guesswork?

Please. I was hoping to have a serious conversation here.

[noiretextatique]

39. i am glad your wife is doing well

you are right...i overreached a bit. however, relying on conventional medicine to exclusion of complimentary treatments works for some people, but not for me.
thanks to a reputable radiologist, i avoided a treatment that was definitely not the best option for me, although it would have made my surgeon some quick and easy cash.
i suppose what i am saying is this: i am going to use what works for me, whether it fits someone standard of "real" or not, as long as it isn't dangerous. what my surgeon wanted me to do was actually dangerous to my health. as you know, you really have to be your own advocate when dealing with doctors because what you don't know can harm you. and there are different standards of care for different people. black women, for example, are not offered the same types of treatment for breast cancer as are white women.
when my sister was dying, i found a reiki master who gave her a few treatments. the doctors had pretty much given up on her, so alternatives were all we had. she really enjoyed the reiki sessions; i don't know if they eased her pain (reiki supposedly helps with pain) but she did have experience that she never would have had...and it was meaningful to her.
i know there are quacks out there who prey on people who are desperate, but there are other traditions, e.g., traditional chinese medicine, that successfully treat illnesses.

[arcane1]

6. It's a slap in the face of science

Will they pay for astrology too?

[stopbush]

11. Yep. If I believe that my cold is best treated with a trip to the Riviera,

should my insurance reimburse me for the expenses? After all, it's a belief, just like Xian Science is a belief.

[Nikki Stone1]

10. OK, let me get this straight. If you're raped, the govt won't pay for your abortion BUT will pay

for someone to pray over you?

:wtf:

[stopbush]

12. And what if the person who prays over you is praying that the government

will pay for your abortion, but the government still refuses to pay? Is the prayer not reimbursed because their prayers didn't have the desired effect?

[Nikki Stone1]

15. It seems that the bill wants to pay for their time, not their efficacy.

:grr:

[flyarm]

42. you got it!!..amazing isn't it??

I remember some years ago when Scientology would not let two teens ( I believe they were 18 yrs old) go to a doctor or to the hospital ( which was a block away ) and they died from severe colds/flu that turned into pneumonia..

but others here would tell you this is a great bill..be happy..don't question a thing..if you do you will be a hater, whinner, or word du jour..

[damntexdem]

13. Many health plans do cover Christian Science 'treatments.'

And it's probably wiser to include in HCR.

Of course, then it WOULD be great were the courts to rule that such a provision in government-paid healthcare violates separation of church and state.

[stopbush]

17. That doesn't make it right. Those payouts for mumbo jumbo effect payouts

that could and should be going for real medical procedures.

[TwilightGardener]

22. Plus, these are probably private--NOT public-supported--plans.

Any company can cover whatever woo-woo shit or quackery or religious practices it wants, but in a health bill for the public BY the public we'd better be sticking to actual medicine.

[juno jones]

18. Scientologists are also jumping on this

as gov reimbursement for 'auditing'. Auditing costs way more than $20 bucks a day. Try $1000 an hour.

[dysfunctional press]

19. "religious and spiritual healthcare."

we don't have medical cannabis in our state yet- so it looks like i'll have to find me a rastafarian healer.

or- maybe i could just become a wiccan, and heal myself using pot as a natural medicine.

[Raineyb]

20. WTF?

:wtf:

I have no other words for this monstrosity.

[ET Awful]

23. How long until they try to roll $cientology auditing and such into it?

Buy the Bridge to Xenu now, it's a medical procedure!!!!

[flyarm]

43. any day..they are a huge voting block in SW Florida. ..dont'cha know!

and in Hollywood!..gotta keep all those crooks happy..

And i do mean crooks..I live where the headquaters of Scientology is..and see the kids indocrinated daily on our streets with the Zomby eyes..going from class to class , and getting on the busses that take them to and fro..so their parents and no one else can get near them to try to get them out ..and i see the parents who try to get their kids out and held at bay by the scientology thug guards..i see their anguished faces ..and their fear.

Not a pretty sight..but Scientology has power of votes, and power of $$$$$$$$$$$

[ET Awful]

48. Hell, they own Clearwater. n/t

[jacksonian]

26. who cares?

look, prayer is not ever going to catch on as effective treatment, but if some want to go that route, knock yourselves out (literally).

Whatever. If it makes someone object less to a bill that also covers real-life medical treatment, so what?

[TwilightGardener]

30. Taxpayers should not be forced to pay for what amounts to

a religious ritual in this bill. And that's what this is, it's a religious practice, not a "treatment" by any stretch of the word. And then you have the precedent of the government/taxpayers paying a church for prayer. Well, all churches offer prayers for their congregants to get well. So aren't THEY all in line for payments too? All they have to do is call it a "treatment". The Baptist Treatment. The Catholic Treatment. And so on. How much public money will we be forced to divert to churches? And we'd also be praying for something that just isn't proven to work--waste of money.

[stopbush]

32. Because the target of the anti-science crowd is not to get a single

religious belief covered as if it were science. It is to blur the clear distinction between science and belief so as to denigrate science in the process.

That's quite a big "so what?" for me.

Here's one for you: is it wrong to pass a bill that grants people's pets the same rights as humans if the same bill gives gays the right to marry?

[jacksonian]

35. ain't going to play hypotheticals with you

show me the pet/gay rights bill and I'll let you know.

I'm sorry, but this is just too small an issue. I have complete faith that when it comes time for medical treatment the vast, vast majority are going to opt for science-based answers. If a clause like this can stop some nut-based screaming and angst in the name of larger good, go for it I say.

[stopbush]

41. You said, "prayer is not ever going to catch on as effective treatment,"

which is an opinion, which is akin to a hypothetical.

You then say, "this is just too small of an issue." Another opinion. You also "have complete faith that when it comes time for medical treatment," ie: here, you're dealing in faith, not fact.

You deal in hypotheticals, yet you refuse to play the game with me.

[jacksonian]

50. now you're being silly

you really want debate on this pet/gay marriage thing?

Fine, I think it's odd but overall an improvement. Feel better? Now what world are we living in that would propose such a thing? Because it ain't got any resemblence to the real one and real health care for people.

[stopbush]

52. No, my point is that proposing equal rights for pets is no sillier than averring

that prayer is a medical procedure.

The fact that the pet/gay marriage thing hasn't yet been proposed isn't the issue.

I have to go now. Caligula's horse just showed up at my door asking for a donation to his Senate campaign...

[flyarm]

44. I do not want my money going to any of these churches disguised as medical treatment. I care! n/t

[jacksonian]

53. "your" money is doing a lot of nastier things you don't like

and this would be some smidgeon of a drop in the bucket. In the end, medical procedures are going to be scientific because science cures, prayers are less reliable, and the vast majority even of freepers know this the moment they become sick.

Faith treatments are never going to overtake the budget or even raise your taxes. Banning it just gets you people screaming about their path to health has been denied. Fine, let them pray and see how it works for them. Who cares - you're fighting a fight you've already won, the Middle Ages will never be here again.

[inna]

29. unbelievable.

it's shocking that Kerry and Kennedy supported this.

[flyarm]

45. they are based in Mass. eom

[Stevenmarc]

31. Call it the Betty Bowers Bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5QqEmBi8iw

[TwilightGardener]

34. BWAH! Good stuff.

[PVnRT]

33. Millions for pandering, not one red cent for women's health!

[cbdo2007]

36. If it doesn't work can we punish them for malpractice?

I had a good childhood friend of mine die, along with her baby cause her husband wouldn't take her to the hospital when she had birthing complications. Turns out both of them died and could have been saved but the husband prayed instead and was a Christian Scientist who never should have tried to deliver the baby at home. I think he should be sent to jail.

[zbdent]

38. I thought that the Churches didn't like Government $$$

I guess I was wrong ...

shows you what they're worshipping ...

[krabigirl]

46. Yuck. Oh but of course, medical marijuana for the terminally ill is not covered...

[Ghost in the Machine]

47. Some inurance policies already cover it. Tennessee allows "christian science practitioners"

to fill out forms for disabled placards:

Medical Certification: The following section must be completed by a medical doctor licensed to practice medicine or a Christian Science
Practitioner listed in the Christian Science Journal. This is not required when renewing a permanent placard.
Mechanical device used: Crutches □ Braces □ Other (list): ____________________________________________
Is applicant PERMANENTLY confined to a wheelchair? Yes □ No □
The nature of the disability is: ______________________________________________________________________
Is the disability permanent □ or temporary □ ? (check one)
Physician's or Christian Science Practitioner's Name: __________________________________________________
Address:_________________________City:________________State:___ Zip: _______Telephone #:_____________
I hereby certify that the disabled individual named in this application has appeared before me and that, in my opinion, he or
she meets the requirements of Tenn. Code Ann. 55-21-102(3)(A), (B), and (C).
Physician's or Christian Science Practitioner's Signature:_____________________________Date:_______________

http://tennessee.gov/revenue/forms/titlereg/appdisabledlicplate.pdf

:jawdrop:

[TwilightGardener]

51. Well, if you get one of these placards from your Christian Science "Practitioner", isn't

that evidence that the prayer treatments didn't work? Can't they just "pray away" your handicap for an additional fee?