11 year old gives birth on wedding day

[proud2BlibKansan]

(MYFOX NATIONAL) - An 11-year old Bulgarian girl gave birth to a baby girl after going into labor on her wedding day, according to The Daily Telegraph .

Kordeza Zhelyazkova became pregnant two weeks before her 11th birthday and was set to marry boyfriend Jeliazko Dimitrov, 19, when she went into labor during her three-day wedding last month.

"I'm not going to play with toys any more -- I have a new toy now," Zhelyazkova told Britain's News of the World newspaper .

The bride-to-be was still wearing her wedding dress and tiara when she arrived at a hospital to give birth to daughter Violeta

more . . . http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/news/dpgo_11_Year_Old_Gives_Birth_on_Wedding_Day_mb_200911031257283639703

[XemaSab]

1. Kill me now

x(

[vadawg]

2. pretty common occurance throughout a large part of the world

and throughout a lot of cultures...

[get the red out]

4. Common doesn't make it right

Human sacrifice used to be quite common in many cultures as well. I guess that would make it ok.

[Orrex]

6. Human sacrifice is still practiced. I just heard about an 11 year old Bulgarian girl who gave birth

On her wedding day, no less.

[get the red out]

91. Absolutely correct Orrex!!!!

People who support this do not support human rights. In other words, they should be posting on Free Republic, no here. They don't support human rights any more than George Bush did.

[Soylent Brice]

94. fuckin a.

[vadawg]

10. depends on what your definition of right is, got to remember cultural mores change across the planet

do you really think it is possible to change every culture to what we would find more acceptable and even if we had the will how would we do it...

[seabeyond]

13. not right throwing acid in young afghan girls face because they want an education

yes... you can say it isnt right regardless of cultural differences. does it mean we will change it? no. but it still is not right.

there are a lot of not right.... regardless of ability to change

[CoffeeCat]

14. We might not be able to change it...

...but we can hope that these people evolve into more humane and rational people.

Eleven year old girls should not marry. Eleven year old girls should not be having babies. Eleven
year old girls should not be having sex with adult men.

In some countries, young girls are sexually mutilated. We may not be able to change that either, but
we can do what we can to help and educate people.

[tmyers09]

18. But rational to one and rational to another is not the same.

You can say "___________ should not do ___________". And you may be right, according to our culture's views and beliefs. But to others, that IS rational. We aren't all-knowing, and we shouldn't act like we are. Hell, in many ways we ourselves aren't humane. When somebody lives or dies depends on how much money that person has, that's not humane. When two people of the same sex love each other, yet are prevented from getting married, that's not humane. We don't live in a utopia, nor will we ever. Because someone's utopia is another person's hell. Wall Street executives might live in a utopia, but the assembly line worker who is unemployed is in hell. The health insurance CEO might live in a utopia, but the uninsured man living in poverty with a "pre-existing condition" is in hell. Maybe I'm reading WAY too far into this, I don't know. It's fun to be philosophical.

[seabeyond]

22. all those examples you give, we KNOW it is NOT right. and this is not right. nt

[CoffeeCat]

23. I'm talking specifically about child molestation...

It's wrong for a 19-year old man to have sex with an 11-year old girl.

Period.

If some "culture" doesn't recognize this--then it's a tragedy.

[get the red out]

82. I wonder if the cultural relativists would feel differently if it were a boy?

It has been acceptable in many cultures for an older male to take a boy to molest. I would imagine to the cultural relativists on this thread this would not be acceptable. The truth is that "cultural relativists" see no value in females as human beings and do not think that females deserve human rights no matter location.

They are probably also makeing a mess on their keyboards day-dreaming about living in a culture where they can knock-up an 11 year old girl and not have the cops show up.

[seabeyond]

84. dancing boys in afghanistan. culturally accept. sex slave. hooyah. nt

[get the red out]

92. Health problems for children giving birth are NOT OPINION

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/12/12yearold-girl-dies-while_n_284763.html

Human rights aren't opinion either, unless you are George Bush or Dick Cheney.

Fun to be philosophical my ass, young girls' health being put at risk is real not "utopia".

[seabeyond]

101. african male think fucking a virgin will cure them of aids. do we shrug shoulders and say oh well.

what is wrong with these people

oh i know

validating and justifying their own wants

[tmyers09]

15. This is true.

Every single area of this world has different values, practices, and norms. What others might think is right, others find repulsive. What those think is normal, others find weird. Some of these differences have disappeared due to globalization, as we see more and more countries look "Americanized". I think you are right in that we really have no way to dictate terms to other countries. What would we say, "Change your cultural fabric or else ___________"? Sometimes you have to think outside the box, and view your own culture as an outsider would. "Wow, that country doesn't offer health care to all of their citizens? That's crazy!", or something to that effect. There's stuff that is normalized in our culture that I'm sure others would find ridiculous. There is no definition of normal, because my normal is different than someone in Zimbabwe's normal, and your normal is different than someone in Bulgaria's normal.

[seabeyond]

24. dictate terms? change? to be humane is to at the very least, recognize a wrong

it doesnt mean we can fix it. but the very least.... recognize a wrong.

[vadawg]

26. thing is that what you may think is a wrong, others across the globe may not

i think that no matter what subject people talk about you will always find a different opinion of it and someone able to justify it, whether they justify it culturally or as a tradition... I am sure that you lifestyle could be described as wrong by a lot of people, same as many people would probuably describe any individual or culture as being wrong...

[seabeyond]

28. nope. they have their validation throwing acid in a girls face because she wants to read

nope. wrong.

we clearly can see some cultural practice as wrong, regardless...

selling girls, slave trade, regardless of cultural validation.... wrong

if you cant see that, nothing i say much matters.

[vadawg]

34. what i am saying is that what you believe is wrong when seen through the eyes of others

its all subjective in the end, it always interests me when we as humans project what we believe to be right and wrong and then have problems when others dont agree. Its always an interesting conversation. I am sure you do stuff that you feel is not wrong but to others is.

[alarimer]

38. No, it is not subjective.

It is barbaric. The fact they do not recognize that it is barbaric puts those cultures in the wrong. They are wrong. End of discussion. We are more enlightened at least in this area and it is perfectly acceptable to say so.

Cultural relativism is complete and utter bullshit. Some things are universally wrong.

[vadawg]

41. yeah i guess your culture is so much better and enlightened

bombing people from the sky, using most of the resources of the world, etc etc etc, we could argue all day about what cultures are better, but cultural relativism is part of the world whether you like it or not, every culture has its bad points and good points.

[seabeyond]

47. and cclever that we are .... seeing you are on du and are aware, we say that is wrong too.

now where are you going to go with your argument

[vadawg]

57. simply many people in the world will condem your culture and you as a member

for if you are not at least participating, then you are allowing it to go on whether by paying taxes or not physically intervening, not going anywhere with the argument apart from same that theres nothing wrong with you having an opinion on something but we have to realise that the other guys opinion might be as valid if not more than ours.

[seabeyond]

46. a culture of men telling girls and woman what they will do. i am sure the girls and women KNOW

it is wrong. i am sure they are not willing particpants, but they do, cause CULTURALLY the men in power have dictated this is what they will do. culturally the females bow down to the men and do what they are told.

universally wrong....

[vadawg]

52. lol i guess you dont realise that there are women in other cultures who think your the one whos wro

wrong, but i guess what they may believe is not as viable as your beliefs, i guess no women should ever wear a burqa as that is a male thing even if she believes. Its not black and white you know, there are plenty of females in other cultures who would totally disagree with you dissing what they see as cultural mores...

[seabeyond]

45. i understand what you are saying. i understood the 1st, 2nd and 3rd time. this is wrong

cultures from beginning of time had their cultural beliefs about females. girls and women. the men created the cultural beliefs because they had the power. the men abused the women and culturally passed it down. and the females suffered.

these girls arent saying yipppee, i want to do this cause it is who we are and culturally we believe in this. they do it because men have controlled them all their lives.

what a load of hogwash to pass this off as some nonoffenisve, nonproblem.

[vadawg]

54. yeah because all the women in other cultures are all weak and to dumb to make choices for themselves

you really need to see other cultures to see that people all over the world both male and female have different views and standards from what you believe.

[seabeyond]

55. right... cause the women are empowered and make their own choices. jfc. nt

[vadawg]

58. Probuably some of these women you put down are more empowered than you will ever be

or could understand, and in ways you could never fathom. There will always be people who are unempowered whether they are on the streets of america, the jungles of africa or the forests of eastern europe, both male and female. Just because you are a female from a different culture dosent mean you are suddenly less than someone from your culture....

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

86. really, she had just turned 10 when she got preg. why article tried to cushion with 11

is anyones guess

[get the red out]

89. I stand corrected, the jack ass who is jacking off is thinking of 10 year olds

Men that support this with the "cultural relativity" argument are sick sob's PERIOD. I would hate to be any woman in association with them, I would imagine they treat women in their lives like total crap since they don't believe in human rights for women and girls. Why do human rights mean human rights for men only to some liberal men? Sickening.

[seabeyond]

102. "are sick sob's... PERIOD". no really, the girls are empowered, not doninated by male, they WANT to

be fucked, impreg adn controlled by male at 10

dontcha know

i agree with your post

[get the red out]

113. Mental capabilities at age 10 compared to age 18

These "men" (though I use the term loosely, they may have a penis but not much manhood IMO) who defend raping a 10 year old because she "wants it" completely ignore the proven, scientifically studied psychological development of children, lack thereof in the case of a 10 year old, as well as the lack of physical development necessary so soon after puberty that would be huge risk factors in pregnancy. They say this is just a matter of opinion on the part of the sane people who rail against child rape and impregnation, but it is not, the health of these children being raped and impregnated, and risks, are NOT OPINION.

I would be willing to bet that these guys would be the first in line to say that anyone who gets so pissed off at a child molester and shoots off their mouth and comes off as in support of prison rape on DU (which I do not support, before the wolves set in) is not a good liberal and shouldn't post here. Because that would be the rape of a MAN. The psychological and physiological damage to a child from rape is a-ok because being against child rape is "cultural" and only a matter of "opinion". Human rights should apply to all. And it is not scientifically based thinking to support child rape anywhere and at any time.

[cali]

74. it's not merely subjective in the end. Cultural practices that

injure and kill individual or members of a group are wrong, and not just from a subjective pov.

[get the red out]

96. The UN recognizes wrongs

So why do some on DU not recognize blatant wrongs? At least this thread has pointed out a number of woman haters for me to hide.

[seabeyond]

103. yes... these men, grown men, adults do not stop at fuckin children.

they do make themselves heard on du

[Odin2005]

107. an adulting having sex with a 11yo and getting her pregnant is WRONG. Culture be DAMNED..

[Statistical]

27. Change has nothing to do with right or wrong.

We may not be able to change it.

We can certainly say it is wrong.

Something are just wrong. No need to be gray area about it.

A 19 year old raping a 10 year old is wrong. ALWAYS. It IS that simple.

[vadawg]

thing is to someone in the US it is rape, and looks like bulgaria thinks the same

but to a lot of cultures and traditions its not automatically rape unless there was no consent, and then in some cultures even if she says no they dont care. you are right in that you are not going to change it, but we have to be aware that cultural norms are different were ever you go, but you are right to call it wrong.

[seabeyond]

32. i. do. not. care. a 10 yr old being fucked by a 19 yr old is WRONG.

do whatever you want, playing this fuckin game, but i am NOT playing

[Statistical]

39. I draw the line at child rape. Always will.

I try to be accommodating of other cultures, religions, and practices but not to be inclusive of child rape.

I will tell someone their culture doesn't mean shit if it condones child rape. Period.

Maybe it isn't rape by the legal statute in some uncivilized parts of the world (and no I don't use that term lightly but any country that allows child rape can't be considered civilized) but it is still morally wrong.

It is immoral for individuals, entities, and countries to allow child rape to happen without confrontation under the guise of "inclusiveness" or "respecting traditions".

Fuck that. At one point eating other humans, keeping humans as property, and stoning "witches" was considered acceptable. To change culture sometimes requires confrontation, shame, and even exclusion (i.e you want this aid, resources, or foreign capital it will require respect for human rights).

[vadawg]

42. just out of interest when does one stop being a child, not that im saying this girls isnt one

do we go by biological standards or by cultural standards, and if so whose culture....

[Statistical]

44. In a perfect world I would say universal standard of 18.

However using age of majority is fine by me.

If a women has the right to vote, own property, has free access to information, and has independent legal rights at age of say 16 or 17, or 19 they that would be fine to me.

A society that says for example a 15 year old girl is property of her father, has no independent legal rights, is not the age of majority BUT can be raped by a man is not ok.

[renate]

71. i think that's a very reasonable standard, as gross as that might be in some cases

If a society respected a, say, 16-year-old's intelligence enough to give her the right to vote, etc, I suppose that by that same society's cultural norms, sex with a 16-year-old by someone of any age wouldn't be child rape, it would be a relationship with a legal adult. Icky to me here in the U.S., but maybe not in the context of her having other rights.

I really like your idea. It respects cultural differences as well as women's rights, while establishing that certain things are wrong, wrong, wrong.

:thumbsup:

[get the red out]

93. deleted self delete

[Shell Beau]

40. There is nothing right about a 10 year old being pregnant.

Anywhere or in any kind of culture. Period.

[get the red out]

80. I didn't say we could change these monsters

We can't change these pieces of shit, but we don't have to play the "cultural relativity" game with words and pretend that any kind of misery another culture can accept is perfectly fine. It is not physically healthy for girls this age to give birth.

We know right from wrong, cultural relativity is ignorance.

[Le Taz Hot]

81. You cannot POSSIBLY be defending

this behavior. I don't care how you try to masquerade it, you're defending it! There are no words.

[seabeyond]

83. you're defending it! ... YES. 3 or 4 men defending fuckin a 10 yr old. this is our world. nt

[Le Taz Hot]

87. You don't even want to know what I'm thinking.

Otoh, you can probably figure it out.

[seabeyond]

88. i am right there with you.... at the very least. nt

[Tim01]

77. The fact that our culture is one way does not necessarily the rest of the world should acree.

I am kind of shocked at 11 years old, but 13 is more common in primitive cultures. And americans still freak out over 13 years old.

[seabeyond]

78. 10. and culturally it was rape... against the law. but hey, another guy to defend the "culture".

[get the red out]

79. Talk to a physician about the girl's health

I think we all know right from wrong here no matter how detached and culturally relative we feel the need to be in order to come off as super-tolerant.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Not this young.

From the article in the OP:

"Zhelyazkova is believed to be the youngest person in the world to give birth"

[Oeditpus Rex]

11. Not even close

Lina Medina (born September 27, 1933, in Ticrapo, Peru) is the youngest confirmed mother in medical history, giving birth at the age of five years, seven months and 21 days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina

[Berry Cool]

12. Good Lord, that's a freakish story.

And this one isn't much less freakish.

[Beaverhausen]

19. female genital mutilation is a pretty common practice too

asshole

[vadawg]

25. and the relevance to the age of consent in other cultures and traditions is what..

female genital mutilation is a problem that will probuably never go away unless you physically force people at gunpoint to stop doing it, same as a lot of other shit that other cultures do that may offend someone else..

[seabeyond]

29. are you GUYS saying, if you cant stop it, change it, can NOT say it is wrong?

is this really the argument?

[tmyers09]

36. Nobody said that, nobody made that an argument.

I'm saying that what we think is wrong, may not be wrong to another culture in this world. We could be the ones who are wrong, who's to say?

[seabeyond]

49. do you really think that 10 yr old girl was into being fucked by a 19 yr old man? nt

[vadawg]

59. how so you know either way, we dont, obviously biologically she was capable

we dont know if mentally or emotionally, but then again we all know people in their thirties who are probuably not ready for sexual intercourse...

[vadawg]

37. nope, you can say its wrong, campaign to stop it, even vote to have troops enforce it

but what you say is wrong, is seen by others not to be, whether people like it or not different people, cultures, traditions, religions etc see stuff differently from others, its the human condition i suppose

[seabeyond]

50. slavery was not a wrong. selling girls is not a wrong. killling gays is not wrong. whatever dude

[get the red out]

95. There is work being done to educate people out of this

I imagine you would like to stop the charitable organizations doing that work though, by the sound of your posts. This can end and good people are working to educate people to not do this. They aren't bombing them, taking them over, or destroying the non-harmful things in their cultures, they are working to make change rather than excuse child abuse, which would be totally foreign to you.

[JVS]

61. How backwards do you think Bulgaria is? It's part of the EU!

I highly doubt this is considered normal there.

[vadawg]

62. lol how backward do you think some parts of the United states are

theres plenty of cultural differences across the EU, i believe its a crime in Bulgaria, but across a lot of the cultures it wouldnt be, but at a national level it is. Kinda like how cultures within the US ie the amish etc have different cultural norms than the society around them. Bulgaria's age of consent is 14 whereas in spain its 13 so even across the EU there are differences nationally.

[Odin2005]

106. So? If it's wrong it's wrong. I don't care what goddamn culture it is.

Cultural relativists can go fuck themselves.

[rvablue]

109. Bullshit. n/t

[flvegan]

3. She got pregnant when she was 10? What. the. fuck.

Ten!

[seabeyond]

5. so really, she wasnt even 11. just turned 10 when got preg. well... i have heard guys say

on du.... once girls hits puberty, they are free game. yeehaw

[CoffeeCat]

16. Anyone who says that is probably a pedophile...

Many girls bodies begin changing when they are in 3rd or 4th grade. Anyone who could
possibly believe that a young girl like that is "fair game" has pedophile tendencies.

No adult has the right to have any kind of sexual contact with children. PERIOD.

[tmyers09]

20. Maybe so, but in different cultures, adulthood begins at different times.

It wasn't that long ago that teenagers were expected to go to work, be married and have kids. It's unthinkable now, but it was only a few hundred years ago.

[get the red out]

100. Absolutly correct

And all these so-called "liberals" scream about human rights until it comes to women and children, they human rights become very relative indeed.

[vadawg]

21. is it canada that has close in laws, im not sure of the details but i think a 12 year old can have

sex with someone who is no more than 2 years older,

[Doremus]

7. Dimitrov now faces up to six years in jail for having sex with a minor.

From the article:

Zhelyazkova is believed to be the youngest person in the world to give birth , although some say a 5-year-old girl in Peru gave birth to a baby boy in 1939.

[sakabatou]

8. ...

:puke:

[Danger Mouse]

17. I have no words.

Just...can't...believe it...geez...

[LisaL]

30. She thinks her baby is a "new toy." What does that tell you?

[seabeyond]

31. she is a kid? ya. nt

[Statistical]

33. Sad. Sad for her. Sad for her child.

Not her fault. What 11 year old can comprehend the awesome responsibility of being a provider for another human life.

Good reason why a 19 year old shouldn't be raping a child.

[Brickbat]

35. So very sad. That poor girl, and that poor baby.

She's dropping out of school. I hope things turn out for them all.

[Cali_Democrat]

43. WTF?

That's awful.

[NoSheep]

48. Congratulations. This place is like reading the racks at a grocery store. eom

[951-Riverside]

51. Jeliazko Dimitrov should be castrated

He's a 19 year old man why is he getting an 11 year old pregnant?

Too tiny to get it into a adult woman?

[seabeyond]

53. 10. she wasnt even 11 when she had the baby. nt

[tmyers09]

56. Or maybe it is normalized in another culture?

I don't know. Nobody's culture is universally right. To pretend we know all the answers, and that anybody in the world who doesn't adhere to our ideals is uncivilized, barbaric, and wrong, is kind of elitist, to be perfectly honest.

[get the red out]

97. YES! These men are disgusting!

I am wondering about some of the guys defending this outrage on this thread. Not guys I would want young girls around I can tell you that!

[JVS]

60. Is that legal?

[tmyers09]

63. Well, not a whole lot that can be done about this now, so

I'll wish the girl and child to be happy and healthy, and hopefully, she will get support from family members to take care of them both.

[Unrepentant Fenian]

64. NO !!! Not another thread about the Palin family....

I kid, I kid !!!

[vadawg]

65. wonder if the wedding is still on, good good luck to all the family involved

[Liberation Angel]

66. Nature created this situation

if an eleven year old can conceive, she can have babies.

Blame nature as well as the guy who had sex with her.

But if it was unnatural it could not have happened.

Doesn't make it right.

But nature made her capable of having sex and having a baby.

I have worked with young pregnant women (many just girls really). Some of them were very happy getting pregnant that young, loved their boyfriends and turned out to be good mothers. They needed help from others because this is a cruel world, but they were not traumatized nor, seemingly, harmed by the experience. Humans are designed by nature to be fertile and to have and want sex at that age. We may frown on it but in my state sex between 13 year olds is not a crime and i doubt if two twelve year olds had sex they would be prosecuted. Only when the age differnce is so great is it considered a serious crime.

It may be a crime. But it is natural.

Nature can be cruel.

But nature also made us that way.

I am not defending it. But it may well be legal in that country.

I would want to know more about the girl...

Anyone who has worked with sexully active girls around this age know that it happens and it is not always traumatic. It may seem crazy, but human beings hve sex that young and frequently with older people and have been for as long as our species has existed.

On edit: It IS illegal there so the real question now is what does the girl want to happen to the guy (that is my question). I worked with a girl who got pregnant at twelve and protected the guy (never named him) and stayed with him into adulthood but had to hide him from the authorities and she could not have the family she wanted (inner city kid from a bad home - but she was smart and ambitious). She wanted her babies but the law kept the daddy from being part of their life (except on the sly) because he was a few years older than she. In some cases girls deal with it (especially in the inner city - this is not that rare from 12 years old on up). Giving birth at eleven is rare and dangerous)

[LisaL]

67. Considering he might be facing six years in prison for having

sex with a minor under 14 years old, no, it is not legal in "that country."

[Liberation Angel]

68. Thanks - so all that tripe abut cultural "sensitivity" is just that?

tripe?

Not surprised.

The law pretty much sets that business straight.

The law reflects their values (more or less).

[vadawg]

69. yeah but does the law reflect the values of all the cultures within a country

think of the laws of the US and think do they really reflect the values of even the groups within the US... but he did break the laws is seems of bulgaria though the fact they were getting married might change the outcome...

[seabeyond]

76. are you the one that said all those months ago. once girls reach puberty they are free game

it was you wasnt it. on the 12 yr old stipper.

[Blue_Tires]

108. i just don't get it...

in other discussions on legal stories I've seen you have a (consistently) pretty strict, harsh, NO-extenuating-circumstances, law-and-order view of things...but here the legal twists and moralizing contortions you've had in defending this are eye-opening...

[Odin2005]

110. If their values are evil and sick then fuck their values.

[seabeyond]

75. yes. it is a couple men that are not seeing much wrong fuckin a 10 yr old kid.

that is the bottom line

[get the red out]

98. Cultural Relativity is a cover for abuse of women and children

I like to support human rights, even in people that aren't male.

[SammyWinstonJack]

70. A new toy now? Holy crap!

:wow: There is just something wrong with that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. Makes me worry about that baby

:scared:

[Dorian Gray]

72. This is shocking

and sad.

Her quote: "I'm not going to play with toys any more -- I have a new toy now..."

Ugh.

[lanlady]

90. What, Bulgaria has no laws against child rape?

Why is the father not in jail?

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. From the linked article:

"Dimitrov now faces up to six years in jail for having sex with a minor."

[blueamy66]

99. Words fail me.

[Odin2005]

104. Thats sad.

:( :cry:

[seabeyond]

105. 10 yrs old. and more sad, we have 3 or 4 men on du defending the fucking of a 10 yr old. nt

[Odin2005]

111. They are fair game when they hit puberty, dontcha know? *SARCASM*

:puke:

[seabeyond]

112. vomit is right. adults that fuck kids.... big thumbs up..... no wonder child sex slavery

is in such demand.

culturally it is acceptable so all is good.