There's still room under the bus.

[madfloridian]

There's still room under the bus.

In spite of all the people we have thrown under the bus here, there is still room for more.

This week we have thrown Jane Hamsher under the bus...one of our most powerful health care voices. After her 3 bouts with cancer, I would say she is an authority on the reality of cancer drugs and their cost. Sure Eshoo's response was powerful, and she was not thrown under the bus. Just Jane.

Recently we have thrown Paul Krugman under the wheels of the bus for saying that that progressives could get behind the health care plan as a start. He has been flattened many times since being under the bus.

This week we threw Howard Dean under the bus for an appearance on Countdown in which he said that though these were not the plans he wanted, he would vote for them. I disagree because I wanted more, but I am not going to throw him under the bus yet. I have not read the plan, so I don't know all the benefits in it.

Not long ago Helen Thomas joined the other truthspeakers under the bus for being critical of Obama.

Even Naomi Klein had her time under the bus for implying that the Nobel Peace prize was a "pat on the head for good behavior" that was hoped for. I disagree with her, but her writings are enough to allow her back out from under.

Today there was an attempt to throw the netroots under the bus for supporting a primary run against Joe Lieberman in 2006. Turns out that is what made him act like a Republican.

I am not very happy with some things going on now since we took control. I am not happy about the demise of public education that is coming under this administration...and I say so often. I am sick about my taxpayer money going to rescue failing Catholic schools in Florida.

I am not happy with the way women's rights are being ignored by our party now in order to make the religious right happy.

But you don't throw your most outspoken voices under the bus if you don't get your way.

If we do that we give them a reason to distance from us as too extreme, even though we are not.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. It never ceases to amaze me how big this bus's wheelbase must be to

accommodate everyone.

[madfloridian]

3. Great pic. lol But the unrecs began quickly.

I was also thrown under the bus today in a not so nice way. But luckily I am stubborn enough to crawl right back out from under.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. Well, I suppose I have thrown public figures under the bus at times but I try

not to throw "real people."

Glad you got back out. :hug:

[madfloridian]

7. Had to scurry.

Those wheels turn quickly. ;-)

[Atticus]

9. "Endeavor to persevere"! nt

[Yes We Did]

78. Looks like it's time to bring this back... (Animation)

Too Soon?

[impik]

73. Obama was the first to be thrown there

He was under the bus on January 21.

[GreenPartyVoter]

84. Dennis K got thrown there pretty fast during the primaries.

[stray cat]

2. Who else is down there with Obama?

[PuraVidaDreamin]

4. Excellent post!

and thank you.

[madfloridian]

62. The kind words...

are appreciated. I doubt many agree, but we have a habit of doing that here.

:hi:

[Cha]

6. Yeah, they were throwing our Precious Howard Dean under

the bus last week for having the audacity to say he "was very pleased" with the "real reform" and "it's a good start."


I saw the video of Dean on KO's talking to Lawrence O'Donnell and after that he was persona non grata with a few around here.

<snip>

"Dean's reaction to the House bill was, "It's not the best we can do, but it's a very good start."

<more>
http://rawstory.com/2009/10/dean-house-health-bill/

[slipslidingaway]

22. Question, how many liberals would have switched their support from ....

single payer, not for profit HC, or at the very least not signed on so quickly, if Dean had not come out in favor of a yet to be determined plan?


And how close have we come to what is laid out on the site?

http://www.standwithdrdean.com/faq

"What does “universally available” mean?

A universally available public option would be open to anyone regardless of gender, race, religion, income or employer.

What does “public option” mean?

A pubic option would allow anyone and everyone to choose a healthcare plan provided by the government like Medicare is today.

What about single payer healthcare?

In America, we already offer single payer healthcare to our Veterans through the Veterans Health Administration. Americans over the age of 65 already benefit from a single payer system provided in Medicare. Single payer systems thrive in every other industrialized country where citizens have government provided healthcare.

Our position is that even in those countries, like Britain and Canada, citizens are allowed to purchase for-profit insurance — if they want it. We believe Americans deserve the right to choose their own healthcare and therefore a public healthcare option like Medicare must be made available for any American to choose.

What about HR676 or other single payer bills already purposed?

Governor Howard Dean, M.D. is not proposing a specific plan. We are drawing a line in the sand over the key principle of real healthcare reform: availability of a public healthcare option. If the final bill allows Americans to choose between for-profit insurance or a universally available public healthcare option, then it will meet the key principles and deserve our support.

A universally available public option like Medicare is the only way to guarantee healthcare for all Americans and its inclusion in healthcare legislation passed by Congress this year is non- negotiable..."

[slipslidingaway]

24. And this statement omitted a few key points of the Canadian and UK system...

the first key point is that everyone in the country must contribute to the national health system. In Canada they can only purchase supplemental policies for items not covered under the national system, in the UK they can purchase insurance that duplicates coverage, but they still must contribute to the national system.

To compare those two systems to what was being proposed here leaves much to be desired.

"Our position is that even in those countries, like Britain and Canada, citizens are allowed to purchase for-profit insurance — if they want it. We believe Americans deserve the right to choose their own healthcare and therefore a public healthcare option like Medicare must be made available for any American to choose."

[AllentownJake]

8. We are democrats

We march in lock step when we are out of power and scratch each other's eyes out when we are in power.

Opposite of the GOP which marches in lock step while in power and scratches their eyes out when they are out of power.

:shrug:

[flyarm]

10. Just a suggestion for those under the bus..

as the winter weather approaches, may i suggest if you go under the bus..try to get a spot near the back of the bus..the tail pipe sends off some much needed heat..and it might be more bearable for the cold nights..for those who can't squeeze to the back..extra blankets are needed.

Now there is a drawback to the back of the bus..the toilets are back there..and IIIII know, IIII know they are supposed to be contained..but when some use them...gulp...it can make you want to go to the front and bear up to the cold!! Of course with the little room you will have, it might be advisable to take room freshener with you and forgo the hair supplies, and makeup, and those cutsie PJ's.

The reverse is the case in the summer months, then you will surely want to be in the front of the bus!

Helen, how are you holding up back there Hun??

[saracat]

112. Love you fly!

Actually, more and more, I think I prefer under the bus but I am considering getting off the bus entirely.But who knows?

[KharmaTrain]

11. It's The New Flavor Of The Moment....

I saw this thing coming and am surprised it took this long. It's called the Honeymoon is over. Some are misplaced hopes and anticipations of massive change in the beltway or that the country was ready to shift from from the right to the left overnight. Thus now there are those who feel they were put upon or used and that the change isn't fast or far enough. That's the problems with you become a big tent.

With its large numbers, the Democratic party now represents the mainstream and that means many different people with their own special interests. Some expect the Democrats to be a mirror image of the rushpublican party, but instead it's a mirror image of the country on the whole...frustrated, torn and with different needs and agendas.

Change doesn't happen with the wave of a pen...it's an ongoing project that is harder to do when you have so many expectations and different people with vested interests. Unfortunately some don't see the bigger picture and when their feathers are ruffled they are quick to condemn...let the passions run ahead of the rational.

I can give a list my priorities and how "disapointed" I am that mine aren't at the top of the list or that the change that's occured isn't enough, but I also look at where we have been and what could have been if McCain had been elected. Sometimes you need to take a step back and appreciate what good things the netroots and people on DU have accomplished, but to also remember that we only moved the ball back to mid-field, to move it further in our direction that will mean more effective changes we need to keep working...defeating rushpublicans where needed and finding better, more progressive Democrats (even if it means primary challenges.

[Mithreal]

16. Midfield, are you serious?

We're deep in our own end zone but yeah we have the ball.

And what if McCain were elected is wearing thin.

Special interests, what about America's interests? We need a little more ask-what-you-can-do for-your-country and sunshine's focus on the fight between YOYOs and WITTs.

[KharmaTrain]

18. So Your Alternative?

Revolution? Holding one's breath? If you think this administration is the same as the past 8 years you deserve to be disappointed.

[Mithreal]

26. Huh, alternative? Get out and work and don't forget the phone calls either.

[KharmaTrain]

27. Been There Done That...

And write the checks as well. Now it's your turn.

[Mithreal]

30. Perseverance is so yesterday. Presumptuous much?

[kenfrequed]

97. Alarm

"Special interests" when discussing major contingents of the Democratic party is often a hallmark of the DLC. It is an attempt at dismissal of hard core democrats that have specific issues they want addressed.

[polichick]

12. Who's doing the throwing? DUers? The administration? Someone else? nt

[Sinti]

13. There is always more room under the bus

When do you suppose those thrown under it will pick up and throw the bus?

[slipslidingaway]

14. In the case of Dean some people have questioned why he has been ....

comparing the public option to Medicare when it is not. Or when SP advocates were trying to get a seat at the Baucus table, stating on the Ed Show, that SP is not off the table.... people can choose single payer or private insurance.


Why not discuss the issues in this thread, Phoebe Loosinhouse raises some valid questions.

:shrug:

Could we discuss Howard Dean for a second?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6901201&mesg_id=6901201


My post in that thread

I did not sleep very well that night in May when I heard Dean...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6901201&mesg_id=6902492

[eridani]

15. Hey, I like Dean too, but this time he's flat out wrong

The current health care legislation is a poison ivy salad dressed with expensive balsamic vinegar. We don't have to eat it--really, we don't. It is perfectly possible to save your nice vinegar for better uses. And it is perfectly possible to repackage the useful parts of the legislation as several other bills.

[Umbral]

17. When you're under the bus too, there isn't much you can do.

At least until most everyone else is there with you.

[niyad]

19. your forgot commondreams

[madfloridian]

25. I did not know about Common Dreams.

Why were they thrown under the bus?

[niyad]

66. somebody was whining a week or so ago about how awful and unreliable commondreams is,

with reference to one of the columns. didn't bookmark that particular thread though, it was just so bizarre.

[madfloridian]

67. They have a variety of authors....many of them.

So that blanket criticism does not make sense.

[niyad]

69. well, we both know that--however, the problem, of course, is that some of those columns

are critical of obama, and we simply cannot have that.

[bertman]

20. HONK!! HONK!!

You can't get thrown UNDER the bus until you get OFF the bus, so I'm not so sure that some of these folks have been thrown UNDER the bus so much as they've been shoved to the BACK of the bus.

I doubt that Howard Dean is going to get OFF the bus even though some of his fellow passengers are not so pleasant to him. Same for Jane or Naomi or Paul or Helen, who is supposed to be on the Journalist Pool Bus, but is still welcome on the Democrat's bus any time.

I totally disagree with Dr. Dean about this healthcare reform effort but I'm willing to listen to him in hopes that he will explain to me how it's going to be anything but a recipe for disaster.

[slipslidingaway]

21. OT ....

I see he links to your comment...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6847370&mesg_id=6850002

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/11/01/what-role-insurance-companie/

[bertman]

33. What does OT mean? Thanks for the link to pnhp; although, I must say that it makes

me even more bummed out concerning our Congress' cave-in to Big Insurance and Big Pharma. Now this whole "public option" concept seems like another P.R. campaign to keep us quiet while the Big Boys finish emptying our pockets.

[slipslidingaway]

35. Off topic...

I think what happened was that they took the original Jacob Hacker idea and chipped away at it so much that it is turning out to be a large bailout of the insurance companies. Exactly who knew what and at what point is another discussion, now nobody wants to tell the people we are better going back to the drawing board.

:(

Under the House bill, co-pays and deductibles for a family are capped at 10,000 and that will be in addition to premiums, the impact this could have on our economy might not be pleasant as pointed out in the post below.

Couple that post with the article I linked at the bottom of that thread, things to think about.

:shrug:

http://contraryinvestor.com/mo.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6895387&mesg_id=6895387

"...We are talking 8-12% of income for premiums alone, not even counting co-pays and deductibles. This is an unmitigated disaster for an economy consisting of 70% consumer spending. The subsidies reducing the cost for those lower on the income scale will come from money that could have gone to the productive economy of rebuilding our infrastructure or creating new green collar jobs. And that is assuming that the subsidies don't get cut--the legislation says that they will if national deficit targets are not met.

Congress and the president seem almost to be from another planet when they talk about "affordable choices." To them it seems to mean that if income minus food minus rent/mortage/utilities minus transportation minus health insurance costs equals a number slightly greater than zero--VIOLA! Affordability! I'm not going to be homeless or starve, and may even be able to pay medical bills. I just won't be buying much else..."

[madfloridian]

37. Correcting the founder of PHNP who called Dean a liar.

And may I first say that if we are going to blame Dean because Congress failed to act, then we must place some blame on the single payer group that has fought the public option all the way.

You can not keep attacking that option, and then hope you get what you want in the way of single payer.

Those groups did a huge amount of work in making sure a public option was compromised.

I do not agree with the statements Dean made last week, but I have not read the bill yet. I have noticed that I was the only one who defended him against being called a liar by the founder of PNHP. The person who goes only by initials posted the attack on Open Left, Daily Kos, and TPM. There was no one countering it. So I did it here.

I pointed out that MANY physician's groups supported the public option, that PNHP was one of the few who did not support it.

Correcting the liar liar attack on Dean.

Eight physician groups issue support for Obama’s ‘public option’

According to the joint statement issued June 15:

“As doctors, we see patients every day who are more afraid of their medical bills than their illnesses. It frustrates and saddens us to care for patients with what began as a simple and inexpensive medical problem, but has developed into a life-threatening condition. It makes us angry to see children suffering from treatable illnesses, like asthma, in the Emergency Room because they literally have nowhere else to go.

All doctors need to work together to solve our health care crisis. Part of this solution should be the inclusion of a high-quality public health insurance option that competes fairly with private plans. Having the choice of a public health insurance plan will help make health care more affordable for patients, foster greater competition in the insurance market, and guarantee that quality, affordable coverage will be there for our patients no matter what happens.

We believe that the creation of a public health insurance option can break the stranglehold that out-of-control healthcare costs have on our patients by fostering choice and competition. As the American Medical Association first reported, 94% of insurance markets are now highly concentrated—and as a result, premiums have skyrocketed -- increasing more than 87%, on average, over the past six years.”

The statement was signed by:

* The American Academy of Family Physicians
* The American Medical Student Association
* The Committee of Interns and Residents/SEIU Healthcare
* Doctors Council/SEIU Healthcare
* Doctors for America
* The National Doctors Alliance/SEIU Healthcare
* The National Physicians Alliance
* The Student National Medical Association

Dean never attacked these single payer groups. He took their shouting him down at book signings, and he did not fight them back. And he never opposed single payer, in fact he supported it even when they called him a liar.

I asked Howard Dean if he felt that public option was getting a fair hearing from Sen. Baucus. He felt it was, but he was concerned that single-payer was not, because "I don't care what you say about single payer. It is much cheaper."

Question: As a former physician, what are your thoughts on the Democratic candidates’ health-care plans vs. a single-payer system?

Howard Dean: I think while someday we may end up with a single-payer system, it’s clear that we’re not going to do it all at once, so I think both candidates’ health-care plans are a big step forward. Certainly compared to Senator McCain, who represents a big step backward.

He could not hold a book signing without being heckled loudly by these groups. He finally had this to say...still supporting a single payer.

I asked the Governor about single-payer, and the heavy advocacy it's receiving at town halls and other places from Oregonians. Governor Dean noted that some single-payer advocates aren't interested in dialogue and disrupt events, which is counterproductive. But he said he believes that Obama made a crucial error at the outset of the conversation. "The Administration made a mistake by not bringing them (single-payer advocates) to the table. That's the best way to have real dialogue".

I can not see the person to whom you are replying, but I see the words PNHP, and I feel since they opposed the public option....they need to take heed:

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

[slipslidingaway]

43. Here was my reply to you in that thread - you conveniently left out the quotes...

Dr. Himmelstein objected to in your OP. Maybe Dean never attacked the various SP groups, keep in mind that all are not affiliated with PNHP, but he mischaracterized the public option continuously saying on the ED Show that it was SP when people were trying to get a seat at the Baucus hearing....instead they were arrested.

PNHP organized in the mid 1980's to advocate for a not for profit HC system for all, they saw where this watered down public option was going and did not endorse the PO.

Do not blame them for trying to point out the flaws of the proposed legislation and for not going along.

And some of these groups questioned his relationship with McKenna, Long & Aldridge, a global firm who represents the BIO firm...12 years data exclusivity.

:shrug:

As you put me on ignore you will not see this reply, maybe someone will PM you, because you have also twisted what happened at certain events.

:mad:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6125451&mesg_id=6126194

and here

Why are people trying to discredit single-payer advocates? ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6164248&mesg_id=6164827

The quotes that Dr. Himmelstein was objecting to are not in the OP after months of Dean confusing the issues and misrepresenting the two systems, Dr. Himmelstein had enough. Dean has been speaking all over the country and has had many appearances in the media so there are probably many other examples.

Now the organization and doctors who are the biggest threats to the insurance companies are the bad guys because they called Dean out on his misuse of the terms.....

[bertman]

44. I'm glad you posted your response about Dr. Dean's comments on Single Payer; however,

I think you are wrong to say "Those groups did a huge amount of work in making sure a public option was compromised." While I did not like the confrontational manner they had with Dr. Dean I think that a vocal Single Payer opposition should have been GOOD for producing a better Public Option than the POS we are now having rolled out. It's always best to have strong support on the far end of the debate if one wants to reach a favorable compromise in the middle--something our President overlooked (or was guided away from) when he refused to use the Single Payer possibility in his bargaining arsenal.

It's a fact that the extremes always force the outcome to one end of the spectrum. Witness the Anti-abortion gang who scream and shout and demand no abortions anywhere ever and especially not paid for by the gummint. Those zealots have pushed the debate into a whole different direction and have caused some serious damage to the cause of Choice for Women. To me, the Single Payer group--of which I count myself a proponent--should have been utilized by the Democrats as a lever, but in typical Democratic leadership fashion they were marginalized and treated like enemies. Now we are suffering for that failure of strategy and leadership. But I am not surprised. This is what I have come to expect from the DLC-lead Democratic Party, even with our President Obama, who I still view mostly favorably (most of the time).

[madfloridian]

50. I agree the group should not have been shut out.

But I am big proponent of blaming the right people. There has been too much here of not doing that.

[slipslidingaway]

53. Blame the Dem leadership and those who tried to confuse people instead...

of educating them.

[slipslidingaway]

45. The public option is not like Medicare and it is not like single payer...

it is a unique animal, if people want to sell that fine, but do not misrepresent what it is.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/15309/pnhp-founder-calls-howard-dean-a-liar

"A few months ago one of the founders of Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP), the main group of doctors advocating Medicare for All in the United States, called Howard Dean a liar for saying that for the average American should think of the public option as a Medicare opt-in.

"He's a liar," Himmelstein says.

"He knows that the public option plan is not single payer and he says it is to try and confuse people," Himmelstein said. "He goes on Democracy Now and other shows and says that people can buy into Medicare when he knows that what is in the plan is not that."

"Medicare doesn't have to compete," Himmelstein said. "That's why it's so efficient."

Himmelstein says that the Obama plan would mandate that people buy insurance from competing private plans - and one denuded public plan.

The private health insurance companies would cherry pick the young healthy patients, while the sick older patients would opt into the public plan - making the public plan unsustainable.


The article was from Single Payer Action. It did not include a whole lot of detail and seemed somewhat hastily written, so I went to the transcript on Democracy Now for more.

Here's the section in question...."

[John Q. Citizen]

64. Which public option are you claiming these groups support. The real one or the fake ones?

you never say.

And PNHP endorsed the Public Option as an excellent idea. But it was the real one they endorsed. Not the fake ones.


So until you let us know which PO, the fake ones or the real one, you are taking about it's hard to know what you support or what you don't and it's hard to know what you claim these groups support or not.

Thanks.

[Ruby the Liberal]

23. One thing I have learned over my years as a Democrat,

we are MUCH more organized when we are in the opposition.

Its as if we have been in the woods for so long (1968) that the party has forgotten how to govern/lead. We talk a good populist game, but when push comes to shove, we (as a party) seem to be more concerned about getting Republicans to 'like' us than to do what we know in our collective hearts is the right thing.

I use "we", but I do not mean "us". I am referring to the party leaders, not those of us who sit on the sidelines calling and emailing into the great brick wall on the hill.

[bertman]

59. " . . . calling and emailing into the great brick wall on the hill." That is a Classic--

a metaphor worth repeating at every opportunity. May I plagiarize that from you, Ruby the Liberal?

[Ruby the Liberal]

83. Its all yours

[Vidar]

28. Magnificent observations, MF! Recommended.

[DRoseDARs]

29. Gays were under the bus BEFORE it was cool. Everyone else is just a bunch of posers. n/t

[madfloridian]

31. I agree with your first sentence, but not the 2nd

I think gays have been badly mistreated by our party. Not especially happy either about how easily they give up women's rights.

[DRoseDARs]

36. It was snark. You don't have to agree, but you DO have to snicker. That's the law. n/t

;)

[madfloridian]

38. lol

You got me there. :hi:

[Time for change]

32. Well said

We should be able to disagree with well meaning people who share our basic values -- especially such as the ones you mentioned -- without impugning their integrity.

[madfloridian]

41. I appreciate your comment.

It means a lot.

[Kurovski]

34. K&R.

Thanx.

[QC]

39. Fear not! There is room for all under the Hopemobile!

If that's not a hopeful, inspiring statement, then I can't imagine what could be.

[Gman]

40. "...the demise of public education that is coming under this administration..."

gimme a friggin' break.

Typical over the top crap from the author of the OP. She started complaining about Obama (I kid you not) less than 48 hours after the election last November.

Countdown started till someone alerts and the mods pull this reply because of the whining and complaining. It's easier to just pull this.

[Cha]

42. So it's okay for the so called Left to "throw Dean under the bus"?

if he's supporting the Admin? But, those others who only have hate for Prez Obama..they have to be defended at any cost.

Yeah, it's way too obvious.

[slipslidingaway]

46. It is certainly OK to question, but then people do not respond...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6904121&mesg_id=6904609

Question, how many liberals would have switched their support from ....
Edited on Sun Nov-01-09 06:48 PM by slipslidingaway
single payer, not for profit HC, or at the very least not signed on so quickly, if Dean had not come out in favor of a yet to be determined plan?


And how close have we come to what is laid out on the site?

http://www.standwithdrdean.com/faq

"What does “universally available” mean?

A universally available public option would be open to anyone regardless of gender, race, religion, income or employer.

What does “public option” mean?

A pubic option would allow anyone and everyone to choose a healthcare plan provided by the government like Medicare is today.

What about single payer healthcare?

In America, we already offer single payer healthcare to our Veterans through the Veterans Health Administration. Americans over the age of 65 already benefit from a single payer system provided in Medicare. Single payer systems thrive in every other industrialized country where citizens have government provided healthcare.

Our position is that even in those countries, like Britain and Canada, citizens are allowed to purchase for-profit insurance — if they want it. We believe Americans deserve the right to choose their own healthcare and therefore a public healthcare option like Medicare must be made available for any American to choose.

What about HR676 or other single payer bills already purposed?

Governor Howard Dean, M.D. is not proposing a specific plan. We are drawing a line in the sand over the key principle of real healthcare reform: availability of a public healthcare option. If the final bill allows Americans to choose between for-profit insurance or a universally available public healthcare option, then it will meet the key principles and deserve our support.

A universally available public option like Medicare is the only way to guarantee healthcare for all Americans and its inclusion in healthcare legislation passed by Congress this year is non- negotiable..."

[Cha]

47. Yeah, I'm actually adressing the

OP, but she's not responding, so I got my answer.

[slipslidingaway]

49. Well I did not get mine from you, any replies to my earlier posts to you in this

thread.

:shrug:

madfloridian put me on ignore a few months ago when I questioned why Dean was confusing the issues and other items.

[madfloridian]

51. I just now saw your post.

I responded.

Don't worry, the above mentioned in the OP are marginalized now enough to harm them. At least in the view of many here.

[madfloridian]

48. Where in the world do I defend those who attack Obama?

I think you very much don't understand what I posted.

I wish you did, but I don't know how to explain it.

You seem very angry, and I am sorry.

But I post what I believe without being ugly.

[Cha]

52. It won't work, calling me angry when I'm obviously

not. That's such a red herring.

[madfloridian]

54. You know what?

You have have your nose out of joint with me for ages. I am not going to worry about it anymore.

I do NOT attack Obama. I post that I don't like his policies in education, that I don't like that women are being rather ignored as a group to pacify the religious right.

Old times forgotten now...okay?

I just don't effing care anymore.

[Cha]

56. I haven't even responded to you

for months so that shoots that down.

[niyad]

68. yeah, because ANYBODY who has ANY disagreement with obama's actions automatically hates him

you really should try a new schtick.

I repeat, uncritical, unquestioning, blind loyalty, and snarling at anyone who dares challenge the leader is bad, no matter which leader, and no matter who is doing it.

remdi95

[joeycola]

119. that insult is becoming meaningless and boring.

[madfloridian]

55. SO...

I see some are still blaming people like Dean, Krugman, et al for the fact that Congress did not come up with a very good bill.

Way to go.

There is blame to be shared.

[slipslidingaway]

58. You could blame groups that were shut out from the discussions and did not...

go along with what they thought would be a bad bill...but that would be silly!

[madfloridian]

57. Never mind.

[elleng]

60. This bus thing is silly.

We certainly should be able to disagree without being disagreeable (unlike my 'stranged husb) and without being forever lost. Please.

[madfloridian]

61. It is a silly thing for people to do.

But it is happening. It is silly term to use, but it is pointing out the absurdity of condemning every one of our spokespeople who are not perfect.

It is not a popular thing to write about, and I am sure you can tell that from the comments.

But my post is not silly, it is quite true that we condemn so quickly.

[elleng]

63. This is NOT SILLY?

'There's still room under the bus.

In spite of all the people we have thrown under the bus here, there is still room for more.'

If its not silly, guess I'll have to find another pejorative for it. Stupid? Self-defeating?

enough.

[madfloridian]

65. I don't expect you to approve of anything I post.

I quit worrying about that a long time ago.

I think it is quite fair.

Sorry you don't approve.

All week I have seen good progressives slammed. Someone should speak up about it.

[elleng]

71. To suggest that I will disagree with everything you post is foolish.

We disagree about education. Lets leave it at that.

My point is that 'throwing people under the bus' is a foolish way to put things, as no one should be assumed against us/me/we permanently. We should surely speak up against 'slams' with which we disagree.

[madfloridian]

72. Well, you be sure to let me know what is not silly and foolish.

And I will try to oblige.

[emilyg]

70. k/r

[Divine Discontent]

74. compromise is a tool - not an absolute imho. I believe the GOP leaders have shown themselves for

what they truly are, and the president has to stand on the side of the people who supported him - not the ones who literally mock his rights to be elected because of racist viewpoints shielded thinly by weak reasoning.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

75. I had some questions about some of Howard Deans latest actions and it has nothing to do with busses

There is a nexus of some of the personalities in your OP - This article is the best I have seen for laying out the basis of the Hamsher/Eshoo conflict (I think most would come down on the side of Hamsher after reading it) and the role Howard Dean played in a way that is very un Howard Deanish:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,193159...
How Drug-Industry Lobbyists Got Their Way on Health Care
By Karen Tumulty and Michael Scherer Thursday, Oct. 22, 2009

Did you happen to notice the title?

Here is a much harsher view of my beloved Howard Dean
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-love/howard-dean----now-a-shil_b_241465.html

This was my post about my personal conflict attempting to reconcile the old Dr. Dean and a newer version
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6901201
**********************************************************************************************

Now to my larger point and why the title of my reply. I posted the stuff above so that you could see that my questions about Dr. Dean are not just "Dean bashing" and that my questions are based on some very specific actions he has done lately that do not seem in harmony with the Dr. Howard Dean that I revere as the plain-spoken knight of the people.

Why is it every time someone disagrees or has issues with some prominent Dem, whether it is a media person, or a politician or the President Himself,that it is always labeled as "throwing someone under the bus"?

you say in your OP - "But you don't throw your most outspoken voices under the bus if you don't get your way."

Is any criticism or disagreement with an icon unacceptable? People are going to agree with much of Hamsher but not all, much of Krugman but not all, much of Howard Dean but not all, much of President Obama but not all... etc. etc. NO ONE as far as I am aware is worthy of unvarnished and uncritical acceptance of all that they say and do.

[madfloridian]

85. I guess I should not have even said I was "waiting" to criticize.

I don't really know all the stuff in the bills yet.

I guess he is not worthy any longer to be be an "icon" as you say. I read your post, and I thought it was fair. There were others that were just plain ugly. I was mostly referring to the ones who were going a whole lot further. So you can label him a sell out right now, but considering his past history I will wait a while for him to "redeem" himself.

Apparently anyone here who says wait before condemning is considered a sell out.

The party leaders already consider us "fringe." I guess we might as well sell out all of them.

The single payer groups in effect nullified anything Dean tried to do. So they need to take a share of blame as well.

We will soon lose all our "icons" because we are so demanding of them.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

90. Well thanks for saying my thread was fair.

I was completely sincere in being aghast at any chinks in my hero's armor, because he has literally been a hero to me ever since he said he represented the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. I went Yeoarrrrrgggghhhh! when he said that. And then of course there's all his other work and effort.

It's ok with me if he turns out to be human after all. I think there comes a point when people just wear out from carrying everyone else's water.

I'm not clear what you mean when you say "The single payer groups in effect nullified anything Dean tried to do. So they need to take a share of blame as well." A share of the blame for what?

I don't want to lose Howard Dean as a spokesperson, but I do want him to know that he is about to lose the cloak of impartiality now that he is employed by biotech.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

76. I'm kicking in hopes of getting a resonse from the OP. nt

[madfloridian]

86. The OP was offline over night.

.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

88. You can do that? I thought that was against DU rules.

[madfloridian]

89. I must not be getting what you are saying.

I was not on the computer. I was sleeping and eating breakfast.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

91. I was making a joke. That you were able to get off the computer and

live in the real world.

[12AngryBorneoWildmen]

77. I can't focus on any thread.

Hating Joementum is all I can think of.. p.s. Sue Lowden is VERY REPUBLICAN and hides it when you click on her ad on the front page of DU. She was Miss New Jersey, though, and can probably do some 'fancy pageant walking'.

[Better Believe It]

79. "We" took control of the government? When did that happen?

"I am not very happy with some things going on now since we took control."

We" did?

When did that happen?

[Better Believe It]

80. "We" took control of the government? When did that happen?

"I am not very happy with some things going on now since we took control."

We" did?

When did that happen?

[Better Believe It]

81. "We" took control of the government? When did that happen?

I just got out of bed. How did that happen last night?

[madfloridian]

87. Democrats...

The pronoun "we" referred to the party.

[Better Believe It]

108. Thanks for the clarification. Don't know how I managed to make duplicate posts.

[winyanstaz]

82. I say its time to move the bus...

and kick some ass.

[Richard Steele]

92. K&R

[NJmaverick]

93. This is an ill advised opinion

that lacks intellectual honesty in my opinion. I am sure it will go over big with the anti-Obama crowd though:eyes:

[madfloridian]

94. I am not anti-Obama at all. Never have been. Supported him in the primaries.

So I am very confused at your comment.

[NJmaverick]

95. Your claim is criticism of people criticizing amounts to "throwing people under the bus"

that only serves to distract from holding critics accountable for their claims. Your comments only serve to distract from critical thinking and examination of the claims make by the people you claim are being tossed under the bus. That is wrong and intellectually dishonest. Best to deal with issues not blanket statemetns. I didn't suggest you were or were not an Obama supporter, my point is your post would be popular with the anti-Obama crowd here on DU (as the recs more than demonstrates).

[madfloridian]

96. I do my fair share of criticizing. I don't have membership in a "crowd"

I mainly focus on the demise of public education with Arne at the helm, or the selling out of women's rights under our party as well.

So there is nothing wrong with criticism of any god or icon or issue.

So you are a member of what crowd? I must have missed that. I don't do crowds.

[bkozumplik]

106. I wouldnt say anti Obama

I'd say greatly disappointed that our leader hasn't been as much hope and change as he promised. He hasnt shown us much success, so he deserves criticism. Anti is something else, and an exageration of what people have been saying here.

But otherwise I generally agree with what you said. Criticism is not at all throwing under of buses-- and theres been plenty to criticise lately.

Vigorous and at times unruly debate can be useful to a point. Comity as an ends to itself is useless and only serves the defense in any discussion. Its not neccessarily a neutral stance.

[Better Believe It]

109. Same here.

[rgbecker]

98. I want to hear more about failed Catholic schools in Florida.

Have you a link or can you give more info? Are these schools turning to charter schools for financing or something else?

[madfloridian]

99. Here you go...link.

Some Catholic schools in Florida converting to charter schools this fall.

There are a couple of sources given at the link. They will get our taxpayer money by converting.

There are so many problems looming with this, and I don't think Arne Duncan has thought all this out before proceeding full speed ahead. He has 4.3 billion to give states that form more charter schools. I surely hope this does not qualify.

[madfloridian]

101. I believe the present number that will be getting taxpayer money is 7

and it may grow.

http://columbia.news21.com/?p=1778

[MSchreader]

100. One way or another, someone is going to be under the bus

Or feel like they have been put there. Those who feel shut out of the process, or ignored, or taken advantage of, etc., will be smelling exhaust fumes sooner or later. There is a definite "throw or be thrown" attitude in politics today; I know I feel it myself a lot.

When I look at the health care plans being debated in Washington, and I think of what I've had to go through medically over the last nine years, I feel like anything short of single payer (which is my minimum choice) is tantamount to me being thrown under the bus by the White House and Congress. It's therefore easy to adopt the viewpoint that either these people do what needs to be done (in my/your opinion) or they can squat under the chassis.

I think it's symptomatic of where we are as a society today: so many fighting for so little in order to allow so few to keep so much. My wife and I refer to shopping these days as "hunting and gathering", because it seems like you have to do so much traveling just to find all the daily necessities. And we live in a big city! And then there's the pressures of society to adhere to a standard that only a select few can actually attain.

There's little room left for a broad-spectrum tolerance when the issues at stake are so close to our survival. I mean, if we all could afford decent health insurance, would this debate over health care reform even be happening? If we all had good jobs with benefits, would the two trillion-dollar bribes given to the corporations (the "TARP" program and the "stimulus") have generated so much anger -- anger that could be cynically exploited by those willing to adopt a dime-store populist posture as cover for their pro-corporate agenda?

In some ways, tossing these media bobbleheads and politicians under the bus seems cathartic. It is a rhetorical release of steam. It's a feel-good action.

I dunno. I don't have much time or tolerance for such things myself. I guess that's why I can stand back and look at it dispassionately. I already know I'm under the bus. I'm part of the working poor. We live under the bus. So, welcome. Please don't make a mess of the place.

[Major Hogwash]

102. Yes, but it shouldn't be the bus driver. Remember Molly Ivins.

And remember her like the Texans remember the Alamo!

If she wouldn't stand for this shit, why should we?

[bkozumplik]

105. here here

well said.

[Chulanowa]

103. If you've been thrown under the bus, then surely Obama's wrapped around the rear axle

Since I see more threads here proclaiming him to be an evil, useless motherfucker than I see over on right-wing sites.

[RetroLounge]

110. "an evil, useless motherfucker"

Never seen a single thread use that quote.

But you must have gotten it from somewhere.

RL

[valerief]

104. Who is we? nt

[xultar]

107. Is there like a nitpicker's forum @ DU? Do you guys hold meetups on shit

to nitpick?

GET A LIFE.

[valerief]

115. Who are 'you guys'? nt

[saracat]

111. Thank you madflo k +R. You are always one of the fairest posters on DU.

The list of those who are dumped on for expressing unpopular thought, daring to criticize or merely refuse to assign "perfection" to all the current Administrations efforts or lack of them is growing daily. Glenn Greenwald, Jane Hamsher, Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz, Howard Dean, The progressive caucus, Raul Grijalva,Helen Thomas, Paul Krugman. Anyone and everyone who even voices the mildest of critiques is excoriated and mocked.

I want to know how and when we became just like Bushies, tolerating no dissent whatsoever? None of these people, as far as I know"hate" Obama. Some disagree with certain aspects of his policies. Why is criticism to any degree not allowed?

And when did the political "purity test" become "primary support" and not issues?

[Dinger]

113. madfloridian, You A Breathtakingly Refreshing And Smart, And

I thank you for it! K & R!

[Dinger]

114. Damn, I Want To Say Something, But I

am just too chicken shit.


P.S. I'll give a name. Wes Clark That is ALL I will say on the matter.
If someone wants to flame this reply, they will get NO response from me, no matter what.

[waiting for hope]

116. I rec'd ya last night - today you get the

kick - Nicely done.

[Grinchie]

117. The DLC Never "tire" of throwing people under the Bus

I'm sure glad I set my boundaries and stuck to them in April. I can't imagine how terrible all of the holdouts must now feel after seeing the games played at their expense, while they were covering for the Corporate Friendly Toadlickers in this so called Democratic Administration.

Nothing good has come from this Administration that is of any passing value, and they keep shoving us toward a complete collapse. Perhaps this is the plan.

To somehow negotiate a way for global debts to be forgiven and started again from square one. At this point, it's the only way the populations of the Earth will ever regain any trust of these corrupt bastards ever again.

[Jax]

118. kick for Excellence as usual from madfloridian

You always get it.


The sycophant 'nits' will always be 'nits' and they will never help President Obama with their ring kissing hero wordship.



But you, brilliant and class as usual.

Alyce

[Generator]

120. Ed Schultz is another

I thought he was kinda moderate when he was on the radio. Now on teevee he is actually a voice for the people. for health care. Not for Obama. And last night I flipped for a few minutes and on Hardball live he ACTUALLY suggested that Democrats in "tough states" actually do what's best for the people and not for THEIR FUCKING CAREER. Yes, Blanche Lincoln maybe you should actually support health care even if you don't get re-elected. Matthews was stunned. And yeah-Du'ers in love with Obama or with power or the idea of power don't like it that Ed's main goal isn't cheerleading for Obama.

Imagine doing the right thing. Imagine being on the right side of history. Yeah, I know it won't happen. But as long as Ed and others you named are actually advocating for US instead of worshiping Obama or any "Representative" I am not only throwing them under the bus-I'm preferring them to these cretins called our leaders.