Airlines used to be nice to kids.

[smoogatz]

When we traveled by air in the '60s and 70s, kids got special snacks, treats, magazines, games and puzzles when they flew--not to mention the little set of pilot's wings. The stewardesses were actually nice: they treated kids like special little guests, and did what they could to make the experience fun for them. Now airline ground and flight crews generally treat families/kids like they're pretty much the biggest pain in the ass to be endured during their pain in the ass day. Need help getting seats together? Work it out with the other passengers! Need help getting settled on the plane? Tough shit--we're power-boarding! Between the long trip just getting to the airport (90 minutes, for us), the absurd and threatening security routine (I said put the teddy bear in the bin! In the BIN!!!), the crowds, noise and discomfort, little kids are generally frazzled and out of sorts even before they have to get strapped into a seat and sit still like little zombies for hours on end. I have to take Xanax when I fly, or I'm completely miserable (a vodka on the rocks, too, if I don't have to drive when I get where I'm going)--but that's not an option for little kids. We can't drug them, we don't hit them, there's nothing to threaten them with because they're already pretty much in kid hell ("Wait til when we get home" doesn't work, because they don't really get the idea of the future at two), and really no useful or meaningful way of correcting them anyway if they're in full meltdown mode--at home, you just let them spin around and scream until they run out of gas; in restaurants or stores you take them outside or take them home. On a plane, what do you do? If you've never had little kids, you're not qualified to answer. Frankly, if I had no functioning self-censoring mechanism, I'd scream on commercial flights, too.

That said, we travel with a shitload of kid gear--copious snacks (no drinks--got to buy the milk, juice, etc. in the terminal, and good luck with that!), books, crayons, coloring books, portable DVD player with kid movies, favorite stuffed animals, changes of clothes (in case of mega spills, barfing, etc.), blankies, and on and on. It takes a LOT of planning, it's not an insignificant expense, and there's always stuff you forget, or wish you'd thought of bringing. We expect NO help from flight crews, and generally that's exactly what we get.

Oh, and anyone who thinks Southwest did the right thing by tossing that lady and her toddler off the plane is a heartless bastard. I hope she sues them for a bundle.

[niyad]

1. thank you for a most insightful viewpoint

[Greyhound]

2. Airlines used to treat their employees as the professionals they are.

More Raygun's short-sighted legacy of mean and stupid.

[smoogatz]

4. So it's okay to take it out on the passengers?

[Greyhound]

80. I wouldn't say it's OK, but it is inevitable. n/t

[calimary]

304. Mean, cheapskate, and stupid.

[smoogatz]

3. An un-rec!

Yay for airlines treating kids like shit!

[comrade snarky]

33. How about an un-rec for

"Oh, and anyone who thinks Southwest did the right thing by tossing that lady and her toddler off the plane is a heartless bastard."

Be a jerk, get treated like a jerk.

Be a brat, get treated like a brat.

Control your child. Screams of "Go Plane Go!" and "I want Daddy!" and the people who get tired of hearing a it are bastards? I don't think so.

[smoogatz]

34. Had much experience with two-year-olds, have you?

Control your child? Like, what--you think they're sort of dogs that can talk, basically?

[comrade snarky]

40. Yes, control your child

A two year old is about as smart as a border collie and they can be taught all kinds of things.

[smoogatz]

44. Too bad you can't crate them and put them in the cargo hold.

Thanks for continuing to prove my point.

[comrade snarky]

61. Not all of them

Just the ones whose parents don't feel the need to discipline their kids and think others shouldn't be bothered by the piercing screams from little precious. Screams not because of pressure imbalance in the plane but just because the kid wants to scream.

Really, it's the parents who should be forced to fly cargo.

I was in a grocery store about a week ago and a mother and her (about) 7 year old were in line in front of me. She and the woman at checkout were discussing the cold her son has. He then began rubbing his face on the point of sale keypad. Coughing, putting his lips on the keys, doing everything but lick them. The number pad everyone uses. Mommy saw him of course and said nothing. That's when I spoke up, first to the child asking him not to do that when he has a cold because that's how they spread.

The I told mommy "Nice parenting there". I guess that was wrong too? I mean it impinged on his expressive potential after all.


Not bothering to control your child is bad parenting. It's a fact at 2, 7 or 13.


:edited for typo

[nolabear]

235. This bears no resemblance to the original post.

You're right, a seven year old should have been cautioned about and prevented from snotting up the keypad. It was thoughtless of the mother. This has nothing to do with expecting a two year old to calm himself on a stressful plane trip or a parent to be omnipotently able to do so.

[comrade snarky]

253. No, it's another example of a parent not bothering

To even attempt parenting.

Just like the lady on that flight who wouldn't even try to quiet her child who was screaming "I want daddy" and "Go plane go" so loudly other passengers couldn't hear the safety lecture.

I find them quite similar.

[Huskerchub]

174. If you weren't druged up and drunk,

by your own admission. Maybe, just maybe, then you could control your precious bundle of brat.

[noamnety]

211. I'm not really comfortable with progressives

insulting people because they take prescriptions for anxiety disorders and such. It feels pretty far out of line to me.

It's also out of line to claim someone "admitted to being drunk" when the reality is they said they had one drink. But that I can tolerate as general dishonest debate tactics.

The other, mocking people for taking prescribed medication, is wrong on a lot of levels, and not what I think of as upholding our values.

[nolabear]

233. Just curious, have you ever personally had to deal with this, and how did you do it?

[comrade snarky]

244. Personally deal with

Not bothering to try and quiet an unruly child in an enclosed tube with 85 strangers?

No. No, I've never experienced that. I consider it impolite.



All I could ask is that they try but apparently that's asking too much of some.

[gristy]

dupe!

There's a whole thread on this already. I'm sure they'd love to see you post this there. I'm not so sure it deserves its place as an OP.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6902109

[smoogatz]

7. Oh, good--the thread police are here.

Thanks for this valuable input.

[donco6]

184. Not the same topic at all.

And who the hell are you to say so?

[AnnieBW]

5. I got a pair of wings, and got to see the cockpit in 1972

We were going to Disney World, and it was my first airplane flight (on Eastern Airlines!) I got to go up front with some other kids to see the cockpit, and we all got pilot's wings. It was very cool.

When my friend was a flight attendant, she told me that Continental *always* reserved bulkhead seats for people with kids and people with disabilities. I guess that's not the case on other airlines. :(

[XemaSab]

42. I got to see the cockpit in 1981

They even turned on the siren for me. :D

[historian]

140. 1 got to the cockpit in 1955

on a dc3! I was going to west africa from england and the pilot invited me in. Told me to sit in the co pilots and drive the plane (the co pilot controls were disabled) and i sat there happily spinning that wheel truly believing i was a real pilot!!

[salguine]

282. I got to see the cockpit in 1980, and Peter Graves asked me if I'd ever seen a grown man naked.

[AnnieBW]

311. But, do you like movies about gladiators?

:rofl:

[Vickers]

6. Virgin and Lufthansa are still incredibly nice to kids.

:thumbsup:

[maddezmom]

24. We've also been really lucky on BA

My son is autistic and not so great in the immigration lines. When we moved back to the UK, they not only helped us collect the baggage but let us know that we could ask to go through the flight crew line due to his issues. No one had ever told us before and now it makes it easier on us but those around us.

[AndyA]

8. Parents used to be responsible for their children.

They taught them to respect others, and to be courteous and not to disturb or disrupt everyone around them.

Parents who expect society to tolerate their poorly behaved, disruptive children are assholes who deserve to be removed from airplanes, restaurants, movie theaters, or wherever their children disturb the peace.

Children must be taught these things, and it shouldn't be up to society to do it for them.

[smoogatz]

10. Case in point.

Two-year-olds aren't the only people in this society who lack empathy. Of course, for two-year-olds it's a normal developmental thing. What's your excuse?

[skepticscott]

19. If it were only children

who were too young to be effectively disciplined and to know when they were misbehaving that were the noisy and disruptive ones on planes, you might have a point. The fact is, it isn't just those kids, so what IS your point?

[AndyA]

30. It's not empathy.

I'm as empathetic as anyone when it comes to other people's children, but when the parents make no attempt whatsoever to control their children, that's where empathy stops.

You're stretching a bit in your attempt to find an excuse for rudeness, disrespect, and lack of consideration for others. And aren't those three things largely responsible for many of the world's problems today?

You can't expect a child to develop these things if they are never taught them.

[GoCubsGo]

72. My parents never would have tolerated such behavior from us

Even when we were two. If they were in church or any other public place and one of their infants acted up, one of them would take it outside. If they couldn't do that, they'd take the effort to quiet it down. You rarely see that anymore. They just let the kid scream. They think it's "cute" when their kid acts up, just like NYC_SKP points out below. I was once in the grocery store, and some couple with a two or three kids in their cart passed by me. These children were at least 3-4 years old. One of them grabbed me as they passed. Instead of explaining to their spawn why you don't grab people you don't know, they just giggled and laughed when I shook my head in disgust. Unfortunately, one of these days that kid is going to grab at the wrong person, and I don't think his parents will be laughing then.

[NYC_SKP]

23. +10

I'm witness to two factors here:

Parents are more likely to travel these days with infants and toddlers.

and

Parents are less likely to keep them under control, they are shameless about it, they think that everyone sees their kids in the same googly eyed 'isn't that cute' pathetic way.

:rantoff:

rant off.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

172. Bingo

I get that the OP is a good parent and has ways to keep the kids busy and quiet. Many parents simply don't.

[Indenturedebtor]

183. "Baby On Board" - If you can't drive the speed limit don't drive

And all of the other things I want to say to people who think that having kids gives them carte blanche to inconvenience everyone else.

"Seat me at the restaurant first I have kids... then give me some crackers so we can cover an entire section with crumbs"

"I need the promotion more than you I have kids"

"Please go around the building I don't want my kids to see you smoke"

And so on...

Kids don't need blue yogurt, specially shaped cereal, 40 lbs of luggage, a new Ford Expedition, an enormous pesticide covered lawn, shopping carts shaped like race cars, ritalin, xanax, 4,000 gallons of hand sanitizer, 85,000 containers of use-and-toss bleach wipes,
special sun screens, personal DVD players, 4,000 dollars worth of crap at x-mas, and so on.

What kids need is time and love, and to be taught how the world works and how to behave and thrive in it. And they need to learn to not scream and freak out every time they're out in public. Parents need to learn that buying crap for your kids is no substitute for time and love and discipline. I think that so many parents are afraid to use discipline because they don't spend nearly any time with their kids to begin with.

[Codeine]

203. Holy crap.

That was simply magnificent. I couldn't have said it better, though I could definitely have said it with much more vulgarity. ;-)

[NYC_SKP]

242. In my former job's Health Care Plan, Kids Ride Free (spouses too).

The cost per employee was the same for a single employee covering just the one person as it was for full family coverage.

:mad:

:nuke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

280. Baby on Board, or CHILD ON BOARD... they are for EMS

And as a former EMS worker I appreciated them. If we got to a wreck and kid was not strapped to seat... my first question to parent was... was your kid traveling with you?

Now if they said yes I knew the search started for kid off vehicle and at times for the meat wagon... but sadly that is what those are for. And granted if they were fully with it and little Johnny or Suzie was not obvious, they were already in hysterics... but we still took them as a ok... there SHOULD be a kid around here.

Now that said... the rest of what you said... can I recommend?

I see the kids on board the same way I see a sign for the FD, pets in the home.

[Indenturedebtor]

177. It's amazing but when I leave the US kids are so much better behaved

One of the great revolutions in social thinking that developed out of The Enlightenment was the idea that childhood is a separate and special stage of human life. Children weren't just little adults that hadn't learned all of the rules yet, they were "apart" from us and should be treated differently.

This is a wonderful concept, but we have recently carried it too far. On the one hand the most popular method is raising your children to be individuals and to make choices. On the other hand we no longer expect them to have responsibilities or to behave properly. Everything now is about "rewarding good behavior and reasoning with bad behavior". "Reasoning" takes the form of "Jimmy that makes mommy sad, please don't do that". Reasoning with kids is great, but failing that it's time for consequences. Choice and individualism without responsibilities = BRAT.

Eat your damn peas, and if you scream in public there will be consequences. My parents would have smacked me silly if I threw a temper tantrum in public. Hey guess what? If I, as an adult, throw a temper tantrum in public I suffer severe negative consequences. If I don't eat my dinner I go hungry... why have we gone away from this model? "Oh he'll quiet down when we take off"... if he feels like it :eyes:

It's always the little Murkan kids that are throwing a damn fit.

[chatnoir]

193. Very, very true and I've never been able to figure out why

kids outside the US are generally much better behaved. The difference always astounded me as well.

Never did see a child in Europe throw a tantrum in all my times there. I don't know what it is.

[noamnety]

198. It's not much of a mystery to me.

Follow these statements:

"It's amazing but when I leave the US kids are so much better behaved"
"My parents would have smacked me silly ..."
"It's always the little Murkan kids that are throwing a damn fit"

-----------
In another thread, now locked, someone was bragging about their parenting and saying they would assault a person (in front of their kid!) if the person spoke to their child without permission.

We model and advocate for aggressive confrontational controlling bullying (even illegal) behavior, and scratch our heads wondering why our kids are so aggressive and confrontational.

If we modeled tolerance and nonviolent conflict resolution, imagine what our kids would be like.

NOTE: I'm not advocating a lack of discipline. (I know people like to pretend there is only aggressive bullying/violent discipline, or no discipline). I'm saying that the way we discipline our children ought to also model the way we want them to behave when they are annoyed if we want to break cycles of aggression and violence.

[Indenturedebtor]

202. People do still spank their kids in these other societies

They also spend time teaching them how to behave. We are the most overworked and individualistic society on the planet.

[noamnety]

224. Corporal punishment of children is banned in a number of countries.

Republic of Moldova (2008)
Costa Rica (2008)
Spain (2007)
Venezuela (2007)
Uruguay (2007)
Portugal (2007)
New Zealand (2007)
Netherlands (2007)
Greece (2006)
Hungary (2005)
Romania (2004)
Ukraine (2004)
Iceland (2003)
Germany (2000)
Israel (2000)
Bulgaria (2000)
Croatia (1999)
Latvia (1998)
Denmark (1997)
Cyprus (1994)
Austria (1989)
Norway (1987)
Finland (1983)
Sweden (1979)

http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/progress/prohib_states.html

I don't expect us to follow suit here, but it's good to remember it's not a universal thing for a society to accept hitting children as a necessary - or even acceptable - form of discipline.

[Indenturedebtor]

267. Corporal punishment and a smack on the ass are completely different

I know I'm probably going to get pilloried now.

[noamnety]

268. you're mistaken about the definition. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

288. Two words : EXTENDED FAMILY

we don't have that anymore

Hell we don't have a functional society any more.

There are other reasons but it comes directly from this. I have told kids at Target to BEHAVE... but most people will not and fear doing that.

Nor do we have kin living nearby and chiefly willing to help...

[flygal]

300. I live in Germany and it's basically because US kids can't do anything

they are stuck at home for the most part. Here, kids are out of school by lunch, do two hours homework, then walk by themselves to sports, music, or a friends house, or the little green area and explore. They learn independence early on. There are sidewalks and walking areas all over. In the US it was strap them into a car, pop on the dvd.... we walk all around here, stroller less since the kids were 4.

[npk]

210. Yeah the nerve of that two year old bastard. Should have been more respectful

And that shameless woman maybe a few poundings on the floor would have shut that damn kid up. Or maybe a good slap to the face would have done the trick. Surely the woman is too blame. I have been saying for years that two year olds should be more responsive to other peoples needs, and while their at it get a fucking job and move the hell out by the time they're four. Yeah what a fucking bastard that two year old was to disturb all those people on that plane, who never of course have disturbed anybody on a plane. I agree with everyone when I say to this two year GROW THE FUCK UP. Oh and uh lady next time control your fucking kid, or walk to your destination.

Fucking hate people like that.

[Codeine]

217. While I totally disagree with your post

I find it extremely amusing when read in Stewie's voice. :rofl:

[npk]

222. That was my inspiration. n/t

[comrade snarky]

227. I'm torn between two options

For how to reply to your post.

First is the option of the Captain, a classic to be sure.


Then again this fits so well.


It's a conundrum.

[npk]

232. I always say go with your first instinct

Unless your first instinct is to second guess yourself. Then it's best to close your eyes and jump and hope you land on something soft. Or something like that. My mother was drunk and on a binge when she told me that.

[comrade snarky]

240. Good advice

Let the record state the Captain has been chosen.



So as it is written. So let it be done.

[npk]

248. Whew. I caught a break.

:)

[jgraz]

9. Airlines used to be regulated

Another gift from Unca Ronnie.

[smoogatz]

11. They used to compete on service

because prices were effectively fixed by regulation, yes.

[bluestateguy]

16. Try Carter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation_act

[jgraz]

91. Ah right... Ronnie just broke the ATC union

I've forgotten how long it's been that the Dems have been fucking the middle class.

[PeaceNikki]

12. They still are nice to kids. I see it every time I travel.

I think SW did exactly the right thing. Oh, I have a HUGE heart AND a father. So... there.

[bluestateguy]

13. And flight attendants used to be nice and courteous

and there are some other things I could say about the good olden days of flying, but that would not likely pass the PC test, so I'll censor that.

[skepticscott]

20. In fairness to them

they used to have time to be nice and courteous...and passengers used to reciprocate more. That is much less the case now than in the 1970's.

[Aristus]

35. As in every other industry, airline employees used to be paid more, and have greater

worker protection. Now corporations pay their rank-and-file workers the absolute minimum they can get away with by law, and constantly reduce ancillary benefits in order to pad the paychecks of their do-nothing executives. Workers understand that they are un-or under-valued, and behave accordingly. Even employees with the best of intentions will occasionally run up against an "I'm not getting paid enough for this shit" situation. Couple that with insanely idiotic, neglectful parents, and you have the Southwest Airlines situation. I've seen some parents display so little skill in parenting, and so little interest in learning that it drives me crazy. I think SWA displayed great restraint in waiting until they were on the ground to boot the mother off the plane...

[onenote]

298. when I first started flying in the 60s, flight attendants had far less worker protection

I see a lot of claims about how much better the job of flight attendant was in days gone by. Well, its worse today than a few years ago, but for many many years, being a flight attendant was hardly a career. It was a job only open to women and whether or not you were hired often depended on your looks above all else. Get married? Get fired. Gain weight? Get fired. Need glasses? Get fired. Hit the big 3-0, get fired. It took a lot of litigation through the 80s and into the 90s to give flight attendants the kinds of rights you would expect most employees to have. And yet, when I was flying in the 60s, when being a flight attendant was not a secure or particularly good paying job (well, for women it was a good paying job but that tells you more about the limited opportunities for women in the 60s than about the benefits of being a flight attendant). flight attendants were nice and helpful. Of course, planes were smaller, people were more polite to them, and traveling was not the cattle car experience it has become for all involved.

[glowing]

14. One back pack. Whatever fits in that backpack, can be taken on board by my son.

Mostly, he's just excited about the experience. He's a good child. Knows how to behave in public. AND is adaptable. Not all children are. Not all parents are good parents. The portable DVD player is the BEST thing to bring on a plane for a child... that and books and music. My son seems to fall asleep from the engine hum of the plane.. He watches about 1/2 hr of a movie and falls asleep until we land. Makes for a wonderful trip. I've only travelled with him past the age of diapers.. so, I cannot even think of the headache involved in a trip like that.

[Shagbark Hickory]

15. _.-*-.__.-*-.__.-*-._ Tell Congress: HIGH SPEED RAIL NOW! _.-*-.__.-*-.__.-*-._ n/t

[JVS]

276. Why? So kids can yell and kick your chair on the train too?

[Gwendolyn]

17. It used to cost $3000 per person to fly to Europe. Now you can hop the pond for $500.

People in the 60s used to dress up in suits and heels to fly as well. Now it's jeans and flip flops.

That has affected the way service is meted out, as well as the behavior of the people who fly.

[comrade snarky]

39. Jeans and flip flops if you're lucky!

I see people in pajamas and slippers.

I think we're just about to boxer briefs and socks. Though now I think about it, security would be easier.

[Gwendolyn]

192. Yummy at that image of a seat mate in pantaloons and socks! :-D

I've had hirsute legs poking out of shorts rub up against me for hours and that's as intimate as I ever wanted to get!

[immoderate]

143. I should wear a suit to get stuffed into a space that would make a worm unfortable?

I don't wear a suit at home. And I usually don't wear one at my destination, but if I do, I wouldn't crush it on a plane ride first.

Yes, I remember when airports had great restaurants and air travel had some glamor. And it was not affordable. Now it's a bus terminal for flying buses. I don't see much difference in behavior, except that people are reacting to no service, inadequate space, and bizarre security rituals.

--imm

[Gwendolyn]

Nah... I like traveling in jeans and flip flops too.

Was just pointing out that maybe we can't compare eras since there were so many differences in attitudes and customs, along with the price of flying. Sort of what you said.

[tabbycat31]

208. flip flops are necessary for flying

because it makes getting your shoes through security easier.

[mike_c]

18. heartless bastard here....

Look, I'm HAPPY when kids can travel comfortably and happily. I don't want to prevent that. But when anyone, regardless of age, imposes their unhappiness on the people around them just because they can, they need to be dealt with in a way that stops that behavior. Ideally, it should be stopped by making them happy and eliminating their need to express discomfort, but if that's impossible-- and some people simply want to act out their anger for everyone else to experience-- the rest of us should be given some consideration too.

Flying has become a pain in the ass for everyone. We're all uncomfortable, irritable, and wish we were somewhere else. I'm fine with kids traveling under those conditions if they can suffer quietly like the rest of us, but dammit-- if they can't, they become part of the suffering the rest of us endure. A little of that is understandable, but beyond a point, parents have a responsibility to the other passengers to prevent their kids from contributing to everyone else's discomfort. Or take them off the plane until they get their behavior under self-control.

/rant.

[Mugu]

26. Hear, hear. n/t

[walldude]

21. I thought all the praise for Southwest was hilarious

Easily one of the worst airlines to fly, but because they were willing to throw a noisy kid off their plane people just love them. Go ahead fly SW. Shitty seats, no TV, "festival seating" crabby employees. Yeah enjoy your kid less flight :rofl:

I fly all the time, I have sat next to crying babies, fussy kids, and people who think that because I'm trapped in a seat next to them they have an attentive audience for their rantings. I have seen people freak out because their entire wardrobe won't fit in the overhead. I have seen rude people, drunk people, people attempting to join the mile high club. Frankly I have had more problems with "grown ups" on planes than I have with kids. The response to this "crisis" says more about the responders than it does the airline or the uncontrollable kid.

[bluestateguy]

27. Southwest is for grownups

if you have little kids, SW is probably not right for you.

But for adults who are responsible and not high-maintenance, SW is terrific.

[smoogatz]

38. So that's a company policy?

Kids not welcome? Interesting marketing choice.

[Warren DeMontague]

120. Actually, in my experience, Southwest is the best for flying with kids.

The Other airlines; United in particular; are way worse.

[PSzymeczek]

199. I won't fly United

under any circumstances. And never EVER route me through LAX or Denver.

[Warren DeMontague]

225. Ever have to do that connection thing in LAX where you have to walk your bag out on the street?

I don't remember when, but for some reason I had to do that a couple times.. I don't even think it was an international flight situation. Serious pain in the ass.

[comrade snarky]

258. I've done that LAX gate shuffle

The worst for me is Chicago.

The only time I've ever had a plane leave O'Hare on time was when my connecting flight arrived to late for me to catch it.

[walldude]

238. LOL.. yeah ok, enjoying that "festival seating" and those little tiny seats

are you? You grownups go ahead and stay with SW meanwhile I'll fly Frontier where I have comfortable seats with leg room...

[polly7]

22. Anyone who thinks that kids just suddenly started misbehaving

because of lack of parenting skills is wrong, imo. Nearly every flight I've been on for the last twenty years has had its share of unruly little ones. Kids are kids. They cry, they wiggle, they squirm, they get bored. To stop this you'd have to have them in straight jackets and muzzle them. Expecting a two year old to understand airline flights don't allow this normal two y/o behaviour just isn't realistic and I admire the parents who do try their hardest to prepare with the snacks and books, etc. When driving isn't an option what else can they do? I'm sure they dread it every much as the woman or man sitting in the seat in front. I don't know how many times I've had my seat kicked a zillion times or listened to a baby cry. It's not the end of the world. The flight will eventually end. I don't wear earplugs or get upset, it's more fun to turn around and make goofy faces or ask mom if I can hold baby for a bit. It's surprising how much fun meeting these little kids can be. jmo, and I'm sticking to it ...

[Lars39]

47. And that's just on the plane....they had to be still during check in

and all the other lines...and the car trip getting there. That squirmy little kid may have had a 2 hour car trip to even get to the airport. Kids aren't made to sit still that long. Parental exhaustion may play a big role, too. Kids just drain the energy out of ya sometimes.

[smoogatz]

54. See?

Now we're talking kindness. Thank you.

And yeah, if there was any other reasonable way to get the kids out to SoCal to see the grand rents, I'd never freaking fly.

[Number23]

154. Lovely post, polly. Thanks for that

Before I ever had children, I was on a plane once and there was a woman getting on with a baby, not a year old. You could almost FEEL the groans coming from some of the other passengers.

Sure enough, the little guy starts to fuss before we even take off. The mom, who was almost as nervous and anxious as the kid even as they were getting on the plane, starts rocking and cradling the little guy and nothing was working. She was getting more and more worked up. After the seat belt sign was turned off, a slightly older woman got up and offered to help. That woman looked so damned shocked it was almost heartbreaking. Other passengers helped as well, and before long there were probably five other passengers singing and helping her with her baby.

Do you know that when we got to where we were going, that woman WEPT. Openly WEPT. She was thanking these people so passionately and saying that this was the first time she'd flown with the little guy and she had been absolutely terrified that he would cry and she wouldn't know what to do. She knew how hateful people could be towards kids on planes because she used to be the same way before she had her guy. She openly wept. I felt like shit that I hadn't offered to help but I never forgot that and now that I'm a mother myself, I completely understand where she was coming from.

People with children should not be barred from planes. We just need a combination of prepared, attentive parents and more understanding and sympathetic fellow passengers and we'll all be just fine.

[Lost-in-FL]

25. I respecfully disagree.

One thing I have noticed during this economic meltdown its an improvement on customer service. unfortunately, because of one isolated incident reported by the media, now all flight attendants are easily demonized.

[Warpy]

28. Actually, I don't mind the kids so much

even if their ears hurt and they start to scream. I understand what they're going through and know their parents don't like it any more than I do and are doing everything they can to quiet them down.

What I hate are the loud, obnoxious, and potentially violent drunks.

[Dulcinea]

259. Same here.

What I hate are the obnoxious jerks who trample their fellow passengers to be the first on the plane so they can stuff their oversized suitcases in the overhead bins, leaving no room for anyone else. I laugh every time I see one of these selfish asswipes have a fit because they have to check their huge hardside suitcase that should have been checked as soon as they got to the airport.

I have two kids whom I fly with a couple of times a year. They know how to act in public, and we go over the "airport rules" on the way to the airport every time. They're seasoned travelers who have never disrupted a flight, but I used to get dirty looks from people when we took our seats. I just glared back. Screw 'em!

[Odin2005]

29. K&R

I was terrified of busy airports and stuffed-full airplanes when I was little. Asperger's Syndrome and that stuff does not mix. *SHUDDER*

[hlthe2b]

31. Airlines used to be nice to everyone... that's gone the way of

civility, using terrorism as a pretest to abuse and terrorize the customer... Pre-regulation, flying was more expensive, but pleasant. Now, it is something to endure or avoid.

[surrealAmerican]

156. Indeed. It's all part of their new ...

... treat the passengers like dirt philosophy. We are now at best an inconvenience (at worst a threat) to the operation and safety of the plane and crew.

[madamesilverspurs]

32. Given the choice between a noisy child

and the inconsiderate jerk seated in front of me, I'll choose the kid every time. At least the little kid isn't likely to slam his seat all the way back jamming the tray table into my middle and spilling all of its contents in the process; last 'adult' who did that had to be asked by the crew to put his seat upright long enough for me to wipe up the mess he caused, and he bitched loudly the entire time about having the right to recline his seat.

Little kids, on the other hand, aren't designed for periods of voluntary quiet confinement. When I travel over the holidays I wear brightly colored sweatshirts with cartoon characters all over them; there's usually one or two little ones who are curious enough that I can engage them for a few minutes to distract them from either the tedium or the chaos. One very cranky little girl was seated in the middle seat with her mom seated on the aisle; she was intrigued by the Christmas bear on my sleeve and fell asleep with her cheek resting on my forearm, and she stayed there for the duration of the flight. Her mom got a nap, too.

Granted, it's no fun listening to a screaming kid for any length of time. But I'll sympathize first and always with the child.

~~~

[smoogatz]

37. Jesus.

I think I may have had a run-in with that same guy (he may be posting on this thread, in fact).

[frazzled]

36. Gosh, there are a lot of irritable, mean people on this thread

I say, if you can't behave yourself on a thread, you should not get on it. I love how everyone thinks parents should control their kids, but have nothing but excuses (Reagan, competition) for surly, irritable, and lazy flight attendants.

Look, I agree with the OP. Yes, once in a while you get an irresponsible parent who doesn't even try to calm a crying infant or toddler. But most do, and much of children's distress in flying is due to things beyond a parent's control: exhaustion, fear, illness, pain. One thing that has escalated over the years is: (1) increased delays in flight departures, meaning the child has maybe been confined in the airport for several extra hours and dragged from gate to gate; makes me cranky too; (2) fewer and fewer direct flights, which also lengthens the trip and causes fatigue.

Back when my kids were younger, they were normally excellent flyers. Once, however, I recall having a flight from O'Hare that was delayed by three hours. Instead of leaving at 6 pm it left at 9 pm---way way past their bedtimes. There was a horrible storm, and my daughter, who was maybe 5 at the time, was terrified to get on the plane, despite our reassurances. When we boarded, she sat in her seat clenched in a little ball, with huge tears rolling down her face. She wasn't wailing, but sobbing silently to herself. I asked the flight attendant if she could possibly bring some juice or water when she had a chance. She barked back angrily that she could not (would not), and didn't even try to reassure this tired, frightened little child. Pfeh.

I had a flight attendant go berserk on me once. Flying back to the east coast from California, she spilled a significant amount of water onto my lap while pouring another person's drink in the row ahead. She looked at it, and continued on as if nothing had happened. I asked politely if I could get some napkins. She responded, "It's only water, you'll be okay." (I was sopped! And we had 5 hours or more to go.) When she got her cart to my row, she did the most astounding thing I'd ever seen: she scooped up a big scoop of ice and literally dumped it into my lap! I am not kidding here, folks: my husband, seated next to me, was in shock. Needless to say, we reported her to the airline. Probably there were no repercussions.

Airlines used to be very solicitous to the elderly, too--allowing them to board early and helping them with their carry-ons. Now, they must stand in line on their canes and walkers behind the "gold club" members and first-class passengers, who are boarded first. Only through the kindness of other passengers can they expect any help.

And remember folks, flight attendants used to have to warm and serve food. Now they seem only to go through the safety routine and pour a few drinks. Then they come by 2 minutes later to collect your empty glass and napkin--woe be to you if you are still sipping that tomato juice. You get a dirty look signifying: "What, you expect me to come back for you? I finish my work during the first 15 minutes of the flight, sister."

[comrade snarky]

77. Personally, I'm not much bothered

When kids act up. They all do at one time or another.

It's when parents make no effort to do anything about it that I get annoyed. The woman in question admitted she wasn't doing anything to quite her kid. Nothing. She said he was probably going to quiet down once the plane was up, until then everyone else can go to hell I guess.

Also, it's true that service has gone to crap on most domestic airlines but I have never seen a flight attendant deny early boarding to someone with mobility problems or the elderly. For about 2 years I flew on an almost weekly basis and not once did I see that.

When I fly now I always try to remember the real job of a flight attendant. They are there to evacuate the plane in under 3 minutes if need be, they're there to do basic emergency medical treatment if something happens, they're there to ensure safety regulations are followed so if the worst happens you'll have a better chance of surviving.

All that and they bring you a drink.

[PSzymeczek]

209. A person who was sitting

right behind Screaming Toddler and his do-nothing mommy posted over on Newsvine. Screaming Toddler started misbehaving even before they started boarding, and do-nothing mommy did...nothing. And Screaming Toddler wasn't saying Go plane go; He was screaming NO plane NO plane. He wasn't going to quit when they got off the ground.

[kath]

260. I tried to find this on Newsvine, but no luck. I'd LOVE to hear the story from other passengers on

this flight - I'm willing to bet the screaming/misbehavior was much worse than the story we're getting from the MSM.

[comrade snarky]

261. Oh lord that's worse!

I wish I could remember where I read that. I may have gotten it wrong.

Still... <shudder>

[nini]

41. when did parents get relieved of their parental duties?

I cannot freaking believe how everyone else seems to be blamed when a kid is not behaving, not entertained, not fed, not this - not that.

It is NOT the responsibility of an airline to keep your kids entertained, fed etc.. In case you haven't noticed adults have had treats cut back on airlines too - adapt and deal with it.

If the experience of flying is too stressful for a child the figure out an alternative. I've seen plenty of children deal with it flying quite well and every time the parents were prepared and most importantly - did not wait until they were on the plane to teach their kids how to behave - THAT is done all along as a child is being raised. Yep, it takes a lot of planning. If folks aren't up for that job then they should seriously reconsider having kids.

Because I expect to be able to sit in a plane for hours with kids who know how to behave and parents who know how to parent I guess I'm heartless. I'd rather be heartless than a shitty parent with bratty kids who think the people around them need to just deal with the tantrums both want to dish out. I have no problem with kids whose ears are hurting during descent or are tired and I'm very sympathetic to the parents and child. I have helped entertain kids on flights before because I know how hard it is. It's the screaming brats that are the problem.

Being a parent or a kid does not entitle someone to special treatment from society. Tough shit.

[smoogatz]

50. Well done.

Thanks for once again proving my point. Why are the people who complain most bitterly about unhappy kids on planes also the quickest to say "tough shit" to parents who could use a little help? Seems to me that if you're bothered by screaming kids, you'd support the notion that airlines could do more (something, anything) to help out. But I guess there's no reasoning with the unreasonable.

[nini]

83. You seem to be incapable of understanding the parents role prior to these situations

IF the parent had done their job upfront unruly behavior would not be this big of a problem. Again.. it's not tired child that is a problem, it's the brats.

You also seemed to miss my comment about helping keep kids (I didn't even know) entertained on a plane. :eyes:

IF you need someone to assist keep your kids entertained then bring a nanny. It is not the airlines responsibility to babysit your kids. Society does NOT owe you because you chose to procreate and to expect that is what is UNREASONABLE here.

Do you expect a movie theater employee to keep your kid quiet in a theater?

Do you expect other parents to quiet your kid who is screaming in the grocery store when jr wants a candy bar he shouldn't have?

Do you expect someone to come in and make sure your kid is in his car seat at all times?

So. yep.. I stand by the TOUGH SHIT comment.

:eyes:

[smoogatz]

90. A riddle for you:

What's the difference between a jetliner en route between two cities and a movie theater, grocery store, or automobile?

The clock is ticking--let's see if nini can come up with the correct answer.

Also, while you're gnawing on that one, ever been the parent of a two-year-old? Never mind, I already know the answer.

[noamnety]

heh, that's funny.

Even the best of circumstances and parenting can backfire on us on an airplane. I remember bringing grapes (purple ones, no less) on an overseas flight as a healthy snack for my kid. She happily ate grape after grape and was quite calm and busy with them.

And when she was done, she snuggled into my lap and barfed them all down the front of my shirt.

The difference between a plane and a store from my perspective is that I never had to spend 6 hours trapped in a store with stinky purple vomit on my chest. :D

(I am sure the passengers next to us loved that!)

[PSzymeczek]

218. I was waiting some years back for a regional flight

from Phoenix to the town in SE Arizona where I live. It was August and the flight was delayed by a thunderstorm, as flights that time of year are wont to be. In order to keep her young child relatively quiet, a mother kept feeding him M&Ms. When we finally got on the puddle-jumper turbo-prop, I was seated across the aisle from said mother and child. Shortly after we took off, the puddle-jumper hit some fairly extreme turbulence. Child barfs up the M&Ms consumed at the airport. Chocolate the second time around does not smell good, especially on a small aircraft.

[joeybee12]

213. Too easy...you can leave the movie theater or grocery store, stop the car...

...when you're in flight, you're stuck for a few hours.

You can do better than that.

[Zomby Woof]

236. You obviously don't know the answer

She raised a son, who is now a responsible adult father of a wonderfully-behaved 5 year old.

Good parents beget good parents. But apologists for narcissistic me-first asshole parents and their little shit demon spawn could not know that.

[noamnety]

"little shit demon spawn"

Are we still talking about a two year old child here?

[Zomby Woof]

296. You've never met Damien Thorne

[Codeine]

284. Dude, "little shit demon spawn" is not the preferred nomenclature.

"Crotch dropping" or "sperm fruit" please.

[nini]

302. .

:rofl:

[nini]

303. What is the answer if you know?

Do you know I was a single mom who raised her son by herself not expecting society to give me a free pass if he acting like a brat? I raised my kid to know his limits and not to act like a maniac to get what he wanted. I rarely had to correct him in public places and if I did he knocked it off when I told him to. The reason for this is he was taught early on there are consequences for his behaviour and he was expected to behave right all the time not just when he felt like.


IF a child is raised right from the beginning situations don't get that out of hand, and for the millionth fucking time I am NOT talking about kids who are sick etc.. it's the bratty behavior that is the issue - these kids are always accompanied by parents who have no idea they're in charge or give a shit about it.


I am a grandma now and my grandson was 2 years old once too - he is 5 now. He's tested the boundaries too and instead of him letting it go he is told what he can and cannot do. Funny thing in addition to being well behaved, he is happy and full of love - go figure!

oh.. and for your location question -- Why should it matter where you are? - if your kid is not spoiled and undisciplined he'll not turn a situation into a nightmare regardless of where you are. THAT is what you don't seem to get - it doesn't matter where you are. Any child that gets that out of control is not taught there are limits and just sometimes they don't always get what they want by throwing a tantrum.

Oh.. the diaper thing said it all about how YOU treat those around you. No wonder you condone kids to do whatever the hell they want to. :eyes:

[PeaceNikki]

86. Oh come on.

You really think they're "quick" to boot people off of the plane? This made the news BECAUSE it's rare. How many hundreds of ill-behaved children make it through an entire flight every single day? Most. And, the crew DID try to help appease the kid.

There's someone being unreasonable just not who you think.

[tammywammy]

114. They weren't quick to throw them off the plane

The flight attendants gave coloring books and juice to the child. The mother said that her plan was to feed him after take off and then hopefully he'd settle down. The child was yelling so loud that other passengers couldn't hear the required preflight safety lecture. That's why they were booted off, because the passengers couldn't hear the safety lecture.

[Deja Q]

265. Both you and the OP make excellent points.

(and back in the day, kids were more polite so the airline people probably could be friendlier too :) )

[Hello_Kitty]

43. My sister and I flew quite often during the 70s, unaccompanied on Eastern Airlines

We'd be doted on by the attendants and would often get a visit to the cockpit. And of course, we'd get our Eastern wings.

We also dressed up to fly. Seriously. We'd be in our best Sunday dresses. All the other passengers dressed up too. Flying was a big damn deal and people acted accordingly. Nowadays people schlep on the plane in sweatpants and flipflops. And I agree with many on DU who say adults can be just as obnoxious as kids. The general decline in flying decorum is possibly contributing to a laissez-faire attitude some parents have toward the way their kids act on planes.

[WolverineDG]

45. As a former kid who travelled on planes back then

I have to say that we were expected to behave like little ladies & gentlemen. We were also expected to dress well....my brothers (10 & 4) wore their Sunday clothes & ties, while I (age 5) had to wear my Sunday dress AND gloves.

dg

[smoogatz]

51. It was a different era in parenting, too.

Threats of physical violence, if not the real deal.

[WolverineDG]

62. Parents had higher standards for their kids too

none of this coddling bull shit I see today, where parents are convinced if they tell their little darlings "no" or :gasp: expect them to behave like humans in public, they will turn them into serial killers.

dg

[Indenturedebtor]

197. Yeah my parents hit me when I misbehaved repeatedly

I turned out ok and feel that the only abuse I received from them was the fact that they were never around.

[Hello_Kitty]

56. Young people are shocked when I tell them that.

Sometime in the 80s people relaxed their flying dress code and I honestly think it has a lot to do with the problems we're seeing on planes and in airports. When you are dressed up you behave differently. I admit that I fly in jeans and comfy shoes most of the time, but gawd as my witness I'll never wear sweatpants or pajama bottoms on a plane.

[WolverineDG]

58. I draw the line at that too

even on transatlantic where they expect you to show up in jammies. ;) Even adults are surprised when I tell them what I had to wear on the plane "way back when."

dg

[noamnety]

82. It's possible that sweatpants on flights

are a reaction to people not actually enjoying TSA patting down their crotch or wanding their genitals in public if they wear pants with a zipper or a belt.

I dress differently now when I fly because I'm sick of being molested by the TSA creeps. Once I wore an underwire bra on a business trip - and they asked me to hold my arms out to wand me. No problem. But then with no warning while my arms were outstretched they grabbed my shirt and lifted it up, in public, with my coworkers there next to me. I gave the TSA person a WTF look, they responded with "sorry, I thought you were wearing another shirt under that one."

I'm not sure why they assumed I'd be wearing multiple shirts, but I sure the hell do now ... I wear a freaking long undershirt that tucks in practically to my knees, no belts, as few zippers as possible, and slip off shoes. And my hair goes in a 1980's scrunchie, no more hair clips.

The nicer you dress, the more likely you are to become some TSA's new date for the day.

[Mariana]

110. I bet you'll find a definite correspondence

between the size of the seats and the distance between them, and the willingness of passengers to dress up for their flights. I would imagine that the more uncomfortable the seating is, the more the passengers will insist on wearing clothes that feel relaxed in.

On very long flights I will change into sweats after the plane is in the air, everything has settled down and I'm ready to go to sleep. I'll change back into decent clothes before landing.

[mn9driver]

46. You get what you pay for.

Airfares today are lower, dollar-to-dollar, than they were in the 1970's. With inflation that means that we pay only a fraction of what we did 35 years ago for air travel. Fuel prices have not gone down. Aircraft prices, parts, landing fees and gate leases have not gone down. Only two things have gone down:

1. Employee costs
2. Amenities

Free checked luggage? Try taking your bags to Fedex and asking them to ship them for free.
Friendly and attentive employees? Tell the gate agent that you'll write a note to her supervisor to explain why the aircraft door closed two minutes behind schedule.
Snacks and toys and puzzles and games? The majority of parents will book an airline that offers tickets $5 dollars cheaper. Why bother?

This is what air travel has become. The consumer has spoken.

[Blue_In_AK]

48. I traveled alone from Dayton to Denver

changing planes in Chicago when I was eight (in 1955). The stewardesses were wonderful, made sure I got on the right plane in Chicago, and, of course, gave me the wings. It was a great experience.

These days flying is NOT pleasant. 9/11 changed everything.

[JHB]

139. It wasn't 9/11, it was deregulation in the 80s n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

256. Whatever it was, it's kind of too bad.

I really miss being able to meet people right when they get off the plane, too.

[varelse]

49. Airlines used to compete for family vacation travel business

I wonder what has changed that?

[smoogatz]

52. Deregulation, as others have pointed out.

Now they compete on price alone, service be damned.

[PeaceNikki]

53. Ya know... a bunch have people are making excuses for this child and mother, I am going to defend

the crew.

Flight attendants are not all boorish heartless assholes. In fact, like people in general, most are kind, courteous and helpful. Just like some of you have said most kids are not ill-behaved, most of the time the airline crew is wonderful. Are there assholes? Yes, but there are assholes in every industry and every facet of life. In the Southwest case that's creating all of this discussion, none of us were there. All of us have anecdotes of either REALLY unruly children or REALLY asshole flight crews, but none of us were there and therefore can't really determine who was the specific asshole in this case. My money is on the fact that SW did the right thing. They deal with hundreds of kids every day and do NOT kick most off. I doubt that they would have knee-jerked and created this stink unless it was well warranted. So... I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[smoogatz]

59. I've met some lovely flight attendants, and some who were complete

and inexcusable assholes. Most seem more or less indifferent to the passengers and interested mainly in getting through the damn flight alive and intact. I get that--I think the relationship between passenger and flight crew has changed significantly even since 9/11: to us they're still the flight crew, but to them we're all potential knife-or-bomb-or-whatever-wielding lunatics. I get it, but I certainly don't like it. As I say, if I didn't have to fly, I never would.

[PeaceNikki]

64. Most of the flight crews that I interact with are awesome. The assholes are rare.

Noteworthy, but thankfully rare.

[GoCubsGo]

79. I don't recall any assholes...

There have been a few cranky flight attendants, but no out-and-out assholes that I can remember. I don't think I could do that job without being cranky at least some of the time.

[noamnety]

149. The thing about the story that didn't make sense to me

was that the mother apparently didn't know they were kicking her off until they had turned the plane around. It sounds like the flight attendants did something between pleading and demanding that she get the kid quieted down, and she responded that she was waiting until takeoff to feed him, and he would settle down then.

I don't see why they didn't lay out the options for her: feed the kid now so he settles down, OR we send you off the flight now. It seems like that would have been a good intermediate step, and from the reports, it seems like they skipped it.

[TicketyBoo]

55. My suggestion would be

a whole stack of story books instead of the DVD player. With Mom giving the little one her attention by reading to him (maybe even holding him on her lap), he is less likely to be making a fuss.

That is what I would be doing with my two-year-old on a plane, anyway. It may not work for everyone, but, knowing my son at the age of two, it would have worked fine with him.

[janx]

60. Same here, for two reasons:

The terrible twos most often misbehave for one of two reasons: 1. They're tired, 2. They want attention. Books provide both the attention and an opportunity to fall asleep, if kids are used to a bedtime story.

[smoogatz]

63. Lol.

Only on DU. Neither of my kids would have tolerated four hours each way of lap-sitting and reading books. The DVD player is essential.

[TicketyBoo]

158. Essential?

A DVD player didn't even exist when I had a two-year-old, and we got along just fine.

My, my! How did we ever manage, I wonder?

[Codeine]

264. You've trained them to be that way.

Children who need to see movies on demand (and the same movies they've watched a hundred times ad nauseum - my mom had a very strict view regarding repeats) are children who have simply been trained that way.

You didn't need that as a child, and I certainly didn't, so why the hell is it "essential" for your kids?

[Heidi]

57. Kids used to be nicer, too, and so did their parents. Times change. (nt)

[enigmatic]

67. absolutely

:thumbsup:

[seabeyond]

245. people use to be more patient and not as sensitive and intolerant too. times change. nt

[Pithlet]

309. Really

Parents and kids aren't as nice anymore? That's real nice to hear :( This thread only serves to remind me why I almost never come here to DU anymore. I guess there are only the rare exceptions in this thread who think they're god's gift to parenting. Or they know the rare exception, a niece or nephew who's good. The rest of us suck. The decline of civilization. It's total bullshit, of course. No tolerance anymore. You're absolutely right, seabyond.

[NC_Nurse]

65. Airline employees used to have decent salaries and benefits too. These people

have taken it on the chin since 9/11, long before a lot of other unions were taking such big hits. They've been downsized, pay cuts, terrible hours,
cut or discontinued pensions, etc. Planes are packed to the gills with impatient stressed people and strung out overworked and underpaid employees. It's
a recipe for intolerance, and I've seen on the part of employees and passengers. Besides, we weren't there, we don't know the circumstances. Some parents
take little responsibility or initiative with there own children, other times nearby passengers are jerks, or it could be a staff that was just over it. Who knows?

[smoogatz]

68. And that's a reasonable point.

Flight attendant used to be a decent job--not so much anymore. The whole experience of flying is much degraded in this country. A lot of foreign carriers are still excellent, but they're generally subsidized/nationalized.

[krabigirl]

66. I agree with you. It is a nightmare..for everyone.

Also, people have absolutey ZERO compassion for others, especially children and the elderly.

If anyone gives me crap about my kids when I fly (and I will do my best to control and entertain them), they will NOT want to deal with me. I am not nice to jerks.

[janx]

69. Has that ever happened? Has anyone ever given you crap

about your kids when you fly? I'm genuinely curious.

[bettyellen]

71. but if your kids are being jerks everyone should be nice to them or else suffer your wrath?

[PeaceNikki]

76. I don't know where you travel, but I am happy to report that I am always witness to great compassion

and empathy. I see people helping one another all the time.

What's terrifying to me is that people are so jaded that they can't see the good stuff that happens around them all of the time.

Sad.

[Hello_Kitty]

191. I see the same thing.

People go out of their way to be helpful and understanding to the elderly, the disabled, and yes, children. Especially at the airport. I'm getting rather tired of the "nobody helps us poor mommies and daddies!" plaint. Parents get plenty of help. But some of them will never be satisfied or thankful.

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. Kids used to be NICE.

For my first flight on an airplane, I got a new suit. That was in the 70's and we flew on a redeye from LAX to Pittsburgh, by way of Chicago. I was nine, my sister was four, and we had manners. Lots of people who deal with the general public in a daily basis are forced to deal with kids who know no boundaries, and haven't been educated in the finer points of how to act in public situations. I don't envy them one bit.

I take a couple of exceptions to your post. In my experience as a child and a parent, children are VERY perceptive, and generally pick up on the feelings of their parents, and act accordingly. You describe your flying experience as bad, starting from the time it takes to get to the airport ("90 minutes, for us"), to the threat of the security check (I don't find "put the teddy bear in the bin!" threatening, but that's me. I KNOW the teddy bear goes in the bin) to the noise, crowds and discomfort. You sound like a frazzled flyer whether you have children with you or not. Frazzled to the point of needing medication (Xanax and vodka).

Needing to take all that shit with you ("copius snacks, books, crayons, coloring books, portable DVD player with kid movies, favorite stuffed animals, changes of clothes, blankies and on and on) makes you seem like someone who is nearly overwhelmed by parenthood. Letting them "spin around and scream until they run out of gas" at home might be part of your problem.

I'm a parent, and have been flying with my child a couple of times a year since she was three. No problems, no frazzle, nothing more in the way of entertainment or nourishment than would fit in an average size backpack (day pack, not the camping kind). She says "yes sir, no ma'am, please, and thank you".

I think it starts at home, and with what is appropriate and what isn't. Spinning and screaming like banshees is not appropriate. When kids know that, it tends to carry over to other parts of their lives.

Just my $.02

[smoogatz]

75. I've been flying with mine since they were three weeks

and about four months, respectively. I've changed more diapers than I can count right there on the middle seat, in front of God and everybody--because it's a hell of a lot easier than trying to do it in the tiny little restroom. I've held up a blanket while my wife breast-fed our infant son and daughter, because TSA wouldn't let you bring breast-milk on the plane (now they test it with some kind of ridiculous litmus paper). But congratulations on your excellent parenting skills, and your unbearable sanctimony.

[nini]

87. you changed diapers in the cabin?!

How sanitary!! Not to mention the smell ins such a confined space. But the problem with you is clear -- you simply don't give a shit about anyone else.


No wonder you refuse to see you are responsible for your kid's behavior around others - you don't give a crap about others - why should they?

[PeaceNikki]

88. Yeah... this.

To hell with the other passengers, as long as it's "easier" for mom. :eyes:

[smoogatz]

89. Of course.

Ever tried to change a diaper in an airplane restroom? It's almost literally impossible, and if there's any turbulence at all, they won't even let you out of your seat. But hey, I think you and I are done here: ignoring you, and happy about it.

[PeaceNikki]

94. Disgusting.

They now provide a place for you to do this. Yes, it's a PITA, but suck it up, buttercup. The rest of the passengers and crew don't need to be subjected to your child's shit, piss and naked bottom because it's a pain to do it in the proper place. :puke:

[PSzymeczek]

234. Back in 1979, they didn't.

I changed my then-three-week old in the cabin of an international flight, and disposed of the dirty diaper in a barf bag (plastic-lined). I had the row to myself and no one complained.

[PeaceNikki]

243. Thankfully it's not 1979 anymore. Nor has it been for some time, to my knowledge.

I'd like to think we've evolved at least a bit since then.

[Codeine]

252. In 1979

people found it acceptable to smoke in an airborne metal tube full of recycled air, so I'd have to agree with you on that one. :)

[DaveinJapan]

220. Yeah, I have to agree, that is disgusting.

I've flown 6 long haul legs with a child in diapers (13 hours Tokyo/New York, thrice) and we changed plenty of diapers up there...IN THE RESTROOM.

The notion that you would do such a thing is pretty horrific.

Yuck.

[sandnsea]

93. I'm with you 150%

It's called life. I don't get why it bothers so many people.

I had a mother like hitler up there too. I'll take you and your clearly normal kids any day of the week. I always want to rescue the ones that are required to sit like statues for hours on end. Poor things.

[Raineyb]

97. You think it's appropriate to change diapers in the seats?

You do realize this is exactly the attitude people are complaining about.

[sandnsea]

101. I admire people with the guts to put their children

over your stuck way too high in the air nose.

[Raineyb]

133. The other person is doing something unsanitary but MY nose is stuck too high in the air?

I don't eat in the fucking bathroom and I don't expect areas like the cabin of an airplane to be treated like a toilet.

If you can't see that then it's obvious that you are one of those self absorbed assholes who are under the delusion that the fact that they have children entitle them to shit all over everyone else without any regard to the other people in the vicinity. And it's probably your over-indulged, under disciplined children who make it a living hell for everyone else since you insist on making everyone else put up with your brats misbehavior.

You need to get the fuck off your high horse and remember that the world does not revolve around you and for people to not want to put up with unsanitary conditions is not people having their nose up in the air.

"Parents" like YOU are the bloody problem with that nasty ass attitude toward others.

[tammywammy]

141. +1 n/t

[sandnsea]

151. Apparently you've never changed a diaper

I've never left "shit all over everyone" any time I've changed a diaper. We also carry wet wipes and sanitizers with us and clean the area.

Again. It's just life. Sorry if it's too much for you to handle.

I find it odd that I'm supposed to put up with adults boarding planes stinking drunk and reaking from alcohol, cigar smoke, perfume, garlic or god knows what - but a poopy baby - THE HORROR!

You people are seriously fucked up in the head.

[Raineyb]

152. I don't care how neat and clean you think you are. We're talking bacteria

that can't be seen and an airline cabin is not a fucking toilet.

Let me repeat since you are clearly having problems with the concept. THE AIRLINE CABIN IS NOT A FUCKING TOILET!

It should not be treated as one.

You can't do much about the people who smell but at least they're not spreading feces in the cabin.

You really are quite self absorbed. THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU! YOU DON"T GET TO TREAT THE AIRLINE CABIN AS YOUR PERSONAL TOILET!

Unbelievable that you can't see how disgusting that is. I'd tell you to get your head out of your ass but you apparently enjoy having it there.

[sandnsea]

157. Heard of disinfectant?

Good lord. You really think you're all sanitary just because you go to the bathroom in an enclosed area? The baby is almost always going to be cleaner than you just by the nature of it being a baby and needing constant cleaning.

Maybe I should carry disinfectant with me and spray all of you with it to keep your germs away from my grandchildren. Fair enough?

[Raineyb]

161. There's really no point in arguing with someone that's so self absorbed that they'd be insulted that

you'd be disgusted by the use of the airline cabin as your personal toilet.

I don't give a fuck what kind of piss poor excuses you use for your nasty ass behavior. Using the airline cabin as your personal toilet is disgusting, and unbelievably selfish. Other people have to breathe in close quarters and somehow you seem to think that it's an honor for them to have their noses stuck in your child's shit and piss. BTW, there are people around with suppressed immune systems who damn well shouldn't be exposed to any of the bacteria that abounds in feces but since it's only baby shit I guess you think that shit doesn't harbor germs.

It's obvious why you don't understand why other people might be disgusted by your actions you just don't give a shit.

I hope your children don't grow up to be as self absorbed as you are.

Perhaps someone should shit on your table maybe then the concept of how disgusting what you're talking about is might get through your painfully thick skull. I have no clue why you seem to have a problem understanding such a simple concept as most children manage to learn it.

[sandnsea]

162. rotflmao, bwahahahaha

That is the funniest post I have ever read. I can just see the steam shooting out of your ears. lol. You're that upset over a baby diaper. lol. Too funny.

Maybe you should get one of those lights that shows bodily fluids and shine it all around you to make sure you never come in contact with a germ.

:rofl:

[superduperfarleft]

169. I don't he/she is "upset," I think he/she is absolutely mortified that you'd find this acceptable.

That usually happens when one realizes just how low the bar has gotten when it comes to acceptable public behavior.

[sandnsea]

171. Three hours next to a drunk is a way lower bar

Than a 2 minute diaper change.

People never see their own behavior as that which is objectionable.

I know that it's ALL objectionable - which means none of it needs to be judged. It's LIFE.

[superduperfarleft]

168. +1. Said it better than I ever could have. n/t

[liquid diamond]

301. I've seen several threads on this issue, but I think this post

sums up my feelings on those that support unruly children on flights. That's a nice fuck you to the people in this thread that justify this shit too.

[comrade snarky]

104. The attitude of entitlement is shocking

I mean how could anyone have a problem with fecal matter on a lunch tray? After all it's easier to deal with there. They must be child hating jerks.

Simply amazing...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

175. Is it any wonder why viruses spread like wildfire?

When we've got people who think things like changing a shitty diaper in the seats/aisle of an airplane is normal?

[comrade snarky]

262. I'd love to see a venn diagram of

People who think it's ok to change a diaper on an eating surface and people who have regular Giardia lamblia outbreaks.

I bet there's a lot of overlap.

[Raineyb]

95. Changing diapers in the seats?

That explains the vehemence with which you defend the lax parent. If you were sitting in the seat next to me we'd have serious issues and so would the airline because there's no way in hell I'd put up with that.

And no one else should have to either. People are eating their snacks and drinking in those seats and you think it's appropriate to change diapers there?

Disgusting!

:puke:

[smoogatz]

102. Oh, for God's sake.

A baby's diaper is no more offensive than the average adult fart. Do you have "serious issues" every time someone farts in your vicinity on a plane? Hell, I was at the Guthrie theater a couple of weeks ago and the 12-year-old girl behind me had the most incredibly smelly feet imaginable--I mean, they were RANK. Did I threaten to punch her parents out? No, I did not.

[comrade snarky]

108. Who said anything about punching someone?

No one on this thread.

Kinda overly dramatic aren't you?

See, it's called basic courtesy. Part of that is keeping fecal matter off the lunch trays. Most people would appreciate your doing that.

[smoogatz]

111. LOL. No, you'd NEVER stoop to being "overly dramatic."

Because, you know, you can't change a diaper in an airplane seat without smearing shit all over the lunch trays.

[comrade snarky]

119. Hell of a good chance of smearing shit

If you have a diaper full of it and a wiggling child on a 20 by 10 inch space between 2 other people and cant be bothered to use the changing table in the bathroom because your convenience matters so much more than anything else.


I'm starting to see why you think the world is full of mean jerks.

[smoogatz]

125. Ignored.

One less to deal with.

[comrade snarky]

131. You appear to be one more person

Who thinks they have the right to treat everyone else with absolutely no consideration and yet have the gall to complain when called on it.

Good thing you like children, most adults grow out of that kind of behavior.

[MineralMan]

132. An adult fart does not spread fecal bacteria on the trays and seat.

For goodness' sake, I cannot imagine that anyone would expose fresh feces to other passengers on an airplane. Trust me, fecal bacteria is more offensive than a fart. Much more. There is absolutely no way you can change a diaper in the seating area on a plane and claim to have any sense at all. No way.

And you're complaining about other people? WTF?

[comrade snarky]

134. The mind boggles

Maybe she'd like to spit in my coffee as well?

Or would that be rude?

[JVS]

170. And then wonders why children are not viewed as special guests to be loved and adored by all

[Raineyb]

293. And has the nerve to think that those who object to the inappropriate diaper change

are stuck up with their noses too high in the air.

:crazy:

[Raineyb]

135. You think a fart is the same as having urine and feces in the vicinity of where one eats?

Do you eat in your toilet? I don't and I don't expect people to treat the cabin as a toilet either. You are unbelievably self absorbed if you think that anyone should have to put up with your child's piss and shit while in the cabin of the airplane. I don't give a fuck how "unoffensive" you find the smell of your own child's waste. No one else wants to smell it and no one wants it near their trays either. And while a fart may smell bad at least it's not putting feces on the tray where someone else will end up eating.

You are really quite inconsiderate, and that's an understatement.

[janx]

99. Why did you have to hold up a blanket while your wife

nursed? When I nursed babies, I'd just throw a blanket over my shoulder. ???? Did people complain or something? She should be able to feed a baby on the plane with no problem.

On a completely different note, the changing of the diaper on the airplane seat is not sanitary--for the baby or the other passengers. It might be a hassle to go to the tiny little restroom, but please, for the sake of everyone, please go there next time. ;-)

[smoogatz]

103. What a merciless bunch of judgers you people are.

Holy crap.

[PeaceNikki]

107. Are you SERIOUS? Wow.

You think it's OK to whip out your kid's unmentionables, exposing your child and its FECES and URINE to fellow passengers, strangers, I might add.

Ick and eww and JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

[janx]

115. You've misunderstood me.

On one hand, I'm wondering why you should or would have to hold up a blanket while your wife fed a baby. I'm empathizing with you, Smoogatz. You shouldn't have to do that. Nobody should have to do that.

On the other hand, changing diapers on an airplane seat probably isn't a good idea.

I think mine is a reasonable response, don't you?

[smoogatz]

121. Okay--sorry.

The blanket thing is because it's often awkward in an airplane seat, the kid may need some help (as I said above, we've been flying with ours since they were tiny), two hands may be required, etc. As for the diaper thing, if your kid takes a crap in the middle of orbiting LAX, or in turbulence over the Rockies, what are you going to do? Let them sit there in their own shit? Then DU's crew of parenting "experts" would be all over you for child cruelty, right?

[PeaceNikki]

126. So, you DO use the facilities provided in most cases? Your post above indicates you don't

because they're difficult to use.

[janx]

144. It's sweet that you want to help with the breast feeding situation,

(and I mean this), but mom and baby usually can figure that out. Two hands while nursing a child would be readily available on an airplane. Hell, I remember cooking with one hand and holding a baby to nurse with another, all the while trying to figure out what time I had to set the alarm to make it to work the next day.

I think that you are very sweet and sound in your involvement.

Your description of the "DU experts" --? Regardless, take the baby to the bathroom, please. I've had to change babies in some challenging situations too: tents, trails, cars, etc...

[bettyellen]

129. janx asked you nicely, said please and you respond w/ "merciless judgers" what a pity party u have

going on.
use the restroom, because obviously you are disgusting your fellow passengers. we need to eat and breathe, and yes, the poops offends,

[debbierlus]

278. This is a really UGLY thread. Shows some of the worst on DU

Sound like a bunch of self absorbed narcisstic child haters...

Sure, it is no fun to have to sit next to a fussy baby (I just traveled cross country with my sister and her seven month old - don't stone her, she was doing job training and had to bring her baby because she breast feeds...oh the selfishness)...

The baby was a sweetie and she maybe fussed a total of a half half hour (per trip) from MA to Seattle. She was a doll and a joy. But, when she did fuss because her ears popped (even though my sister followed all the advice on how to soothe during takeoff and landings), the exasperation was palpable from the other passengers. These people who had to listen to nary a peep the whole flight were pissed that they had to listen to 10 minutes of fussing. Not even full out crying, just a little whimpering and fussing.

Sounds like the people on the plane populate DU.

[Raineyb]

291. So do you think it's appropriate to change diapers in the cabin too?

Because that's the type of asshole who has been making the accusation of child hating on this thread. Personally, that's not the person I'd align myself with but YMMV.

:shrug:

[MineralMan]

128. ON THE SEAT! Not if I was there. No way.

Take the poopy-britches to the rest room. That's where shit is handled on an airplane. If you started changing a diaper on a seat next to me, the flight attendant would be called instantly and you'd be directed to the bathroom on the plane.

For Pete's sake! How could you even think about doing such a thing?

[REP]

142. Baby shit isn't magically free of e. coli and other fecalform bacteria

What you're doing is incredibly nasty and thoughtless. Bathrooms are the proper places to deal with bowel movements and urine, not public seating areas where food is consumed. You know this, but using the proper facilities is too haaaaard. Wah.

[superduperfarleft]

167. YOU CHANGED THEIR DIAPER RIGHT THERE IN THE SEAT???!!!

That's fucking disgusting.

You are the kind of parent that makes people hate being around kids (and their shitty parents). Congrats.

[TwilightGardener]

173. Well, since it's often inconvenient to wait for the restroom, and it's a

pain trying to get back there anyway when you're in a window seat, is it OK if I just shit my pants in the cabin and wipe myself up with baby wipes? Is that all right with you?

[Hello_Kitty]

237. OMG.

You win the Entitled Inconsiderate Asshat Parent of the Year for that post.

Changing diapers on the plane seat. Where people eat and drink. Unbelievable. You probably don't even wash your hands after, since how could your precious little miracle possibly have anything in his/her poop that would make anyone sick?

Jesus Christ. :wow:

[chatnoir]

78. +10

[seabeyond]

247. adults use to be nice. nt

[ShortnFiery]

285. +1000

:-) :hi:

[jenniferj]

73. Great post

n/t

[stray cat]

74. I had a kid kicking the back of my seat nonstop for an entire flight

really annoying. Afterwards the parent went out of their way to thank me for my tolerance and patience - melted my annoyance for the last few hours completely. ALot depends on the attitude of the parents.

[HipChick]

81. I'm glad they kicked them off..

airlines shouldn't be in the biz of disciplining kids

[Jennicut]

84. When my kids flew to Florida they got the special wings and certificates.

The stewardess treated them great.

[smoogatz]

92. Glad to hear it.

What airline?

[Jennicut]

106. Delta, it was in 2006.

[smoogatz]

113. We're actually cautiously pleased that Delta's bought Northwest.

Things seem to have improved somewhat in terms of crew behavior/attitude. The crews out of Atlanta are generally very pleasant.

[PSzymeczek]

239. Delta and American

are the best.

[MerryBlooms]

85. I've read several of these threads this weekend

Honestly, I have never encountered many 'unruly' kids during flights, movies, shopping or at restaurants. I've flown every two months for the last three years and never spent a cross country flight with unruly children or oblivious parents. The only time I can think of when a child was 'known' throughout the plane, was a flight when an approx. 8 y/o little guy who started puking after take-off, and we passed all our puke bags to his mom.

Maybe I'm just tuned out due to having raised two sons and worked in the school district for 14 years, but I seriously have zero 'kid combat' miles under my belt and I'm 46.

[seabeyond]

249. me either. which makes me wonder about this oh so big deal crisis. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

96. Airlines used to be more comfortable than a third world bus.

The only thing missing these days is the goats.

[noamnety]

148. Oh man, that would be awesome.

I would actually like flying if they had goats on the plane.

[mnhtnbb]

98. They aren't much nicer to adults. I got on a plane not too long ago--

zipped back to the bathroom--and discovered a woman with her kid had taken my assigned seat and the vacant
middle seat. I said to her, "you're in my seat" and she replied, "you can go sit in my seat.
I'm sitting here with my kid." I told her again, "you're in my seat and I don't want to trade seats
with you" and she told me, "tough. We're sitting here now".

So, I'm penalized for booking my seats early and working the seating charts and she just does what she wants! The flight attendant was no help.

[mnhtnbb]

100. Try riding the train. I'm going to DC tomorrow and back Wednesday. I'm going on the train.

[Liberal_in_LA]

105. OMG. I would have gone off on that stupid lady.. At minimum watched and waited until SHE went to

restroom and taken back the seat. OMG.

[smoogatz]

109. I actually understand where she's coming from,

though I would never do what she did. Some airlines (Northworst) make it very difficult for passengers flying together to book seats together, even if you book months in advance or check in early online. Try getting four seats in a row as a family and you'll know what I mean. The ground crews and flight attendants are often no help--they tell you to "work it out with the other passengers." "Like how?" you say. "It's up to you," they say. Great, right? So here's what we do now: we check in early online, and always get at least one $20 "upgrade" aisle, exit or bulkhead seat we can use as barter, as close to the front of the plane as possible. Then we offer the upgrade seat in trade. sometimes passengers are unwilling to help out--just don't want to move, or whatever--so when that happens we now say: fine. Have fun flying with our two-year-old. here's her stuff, here's the diaper bag, knock yourself out. That usually does the trick.

[tammywammy]

117. She could have used common courtesy and at least ASKED before just taking her seat. n/t

[smoogatz]

127. Of course.

As I said, that's not something I would ever do.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

181. LOL....of course you would

Your whole attitude in this thread has been "fuck the non-breeders, we're more important!".

[Codeine]

205. She would have taken the seat

for use as a changing table! :rofl:

[chatnoir]

118. "Tough, we're sitting here now"??

Holy crap, how did you not go off? I would've gotten the nearest flight attendant.

[Warren Stupidity]

123. Oh that is minor. How about this:

I took a plane from Manchester NH to Washington a while ago. We got on the plane and sat for a long time without leaving the gate. After quite some time, I had to pee, so I started to get up, and as soon as I started moving the flight attendant grabbed the mic and announced that nobody could leave their seats. But I was mentally committed to releasing urine, so I just proceeded to the bathroom, ignoring her squawks. As soon as I opened the door I knew why we were not leaving the gate and why she made her sudden announcement of a stay in your seat emergency. The whole floor was awash in turds and dubious fluids. I was, as I said, committed, so I carefully stepped into this hell and released my contribution and returned to my seat, ignoring the glaring FA and wondering what exactly I ought to do with my now toxic shoes.

The plane shortly after started rolling, complete with the turd soup in the back, and took off. As soon as we were airborne the FA made a new announcement, that lavatory services would be unavailable for the duration of the flight. I am pretty sure they were violating rules by not cleaning up the mess while the plane was at the gate, and that once airborne they were allowed to continue flying with a broken shitter. The admonition to remain seated was to avoid anyone discovering that they were going to fly with the plane in this condition.

[dana_b]

189. oh.my.God...

my gag reflex is fully activated.

I think I would have told a few people around me and made a stink about it (appropriate terminolgy in this case). That is horrible!!

[chatnoir]

230. Oh, no way... what the hell airline was this??

I would have made a big stink (pun intended) either during or after had I been on turkish toilet flight from hell.

[MerryBlooms]

124. I found the same situation on SW with

supposedly someone's grandma who even pretended to be asleep in my row 4 aisle seat after maybe 3 minutes of my absence to use the lav. - she took up squatter's rights - and she was 'sound' asleep. The attendant told me it wasn't a big deal and showed me to the 'squatter's' seat ... yep, rear of the plane in the middle seat. When we landed, we of course had to pass her bag up while she had a big shit-eating grin on her face.

People can be crappy no matter their age/gender/etc.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

274. I have a fix for that...

Ask them to get up so you can get to you interior seat. Given the lack of leg room, just about everyone will. Then sit in your assigned seat and let them whine. I've seen that done a few times and the results were amusing.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

273. Most airlines require that people sit in their assigned seats

You should have insisted that they be enforced

[RB TexLa]

112. People also used to mind their own business. There is no way I could care what a child does

on an airplane. Even if I could find a way to care it still couldn't be any of my business.

[Taitertots]

137. Their bad parenting is made your business when

You have to put up with obnoxious parents and their screaming children.

Try minding your business when I'm screaming in your ear.

[RB TexLa]

146. I would have no problem ignoring you doing that. And nothing any child's parents have or haven't

done change what is and is not my business.

[Taitertots]

160. How is screaming in your ear not your business?

It is absolutely your business when someone is creating a clear and unavoidable nuisance.

I don't believe you would have no problem with me screaming in your ear. You might want to pretend that, but an hour into me scream/singing poker face you are going to have a problem with it.

[RB TexLa]

163. Sorry but I will never think "would taitertots tell me this is my concern" when determining if

something is or is not any of my business.

[Taitertots]

179. You must not think at all

If someone screaming in your ear is none of your business.

How egregious must someone's behavior be before you think it is your business?

[RB TexLa]

195. I tell you I mind my own busness and you tell me that I must not think

You can move on and insult some other person you don't know on an internet message board now, have a nice day.

[Taitertots]

216. Whatever chief

Keep "minding your own business" then.

You claim someone screaming in your ear isn't going to bother you, yet get all worked up over message board condescension.

[RB TexLa]

219. Not "worked up" at all. However if it makes you feel better, I guess go ahead and think that.

have a nice day.

[Hello_Kitty]

155. I imagine you fly in First or Business Class

Screwing American workers out of jobs being so profitable and all.

[Taitertots]

226. Only the absolute cheapest seats I can get

So no I don't ever fly first class.

How exactly does first class seating screw American workers out of jobs?

[Hello_Kitty]

246. I'm responding to RBTexLa, who hearts outsourcing and cheap labor.

He weighs in on the topic so often, to accuse people who want to protect jobs and wages here of being "xenophobes" that a lot of us figure he has to be profiting from either immigration or outsourcing.

[Codeine]

186. I don't fly with you. nt

[PeaceNikki]

187. heh

:thumbsup:

[Zomby Woof]

251. Damn

Someone beat me to the "I don't fly with you" reply. :P

[Warren DeMontague]

116. Flying in general sucks ass. It would be more humane to sedate the passengers & stack them

like cord wood in the cargo hold. Wake em up when the whole cattle car nightmare is over.

I mean it. I know what a pain it is to travel with kids.... and don't expect a lot of sympathy here on DU- there are people who will only grudgingly acknowledge that you might have the right to have kids in the first place- although you should be ashamed of yourself for doing so- but they sure as hell won't understand why you would take them out in public before age 18.

But the truth is, EVERYONE on the plane is miserable these days- passengers, staff, etc.

In my experience, actually, Southwest is the best for flying with kids. Just check in early enough to get a low boarding number.

[smoogatz]

122. +10000.

Agreed on every point.

[Swamp Rat]

165. dupe

[Swamp Rat]

166. LOL!

:D Spot on, dude! :thumbsup:

[Number23]

176. Great post. And I gotta agree with everyone who said that changing a diaper in the cabin is gross

Smoogatz, I got your back but that's just.... a bit much.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

182. Everyone should be wheeled on the plane in Hannibal Lecter gear

I've long advocated it.

[Taitertots]

130. I'm sorry that you actually have to take care of your own children

You wanted them, you can take care of them when you go out.

[Posteritatis]

136. I hear that airlines used to be nice to their adults, too. (nt)

[historian]

138. I remember those days

In fact i remember even earlier. My parents lived in west africa while i went to boarding school in england. In 1955 i had to take a DC3 from london to accra - took 2 days but the staff couldnt have been friendlier. The pilot or co pilot would come out and chat with everyone. I was only 6 at the time and i remember him taking me to cockpit and telling to pilot the plane by turning the steering wheel (it was set for the other pilot) I saw there happily spinning that wheel thinking i was really piloting the plane.
Later on 1958 my parents moved to brazil and i went from london to rio on a lufthansa strato cruiser (i think that was the name) with 4 huge propeller engines on the wings. The attendant received me at the door (even knew my name) took me to my seat, gave me a blanket and a pillow, asked what my favorite food was (they already knew but i didnt know that) and lo and behold guess what i got for dinner. Later on she came by and said that since no one was sitting next me she could raise the barrier so i could stretch and sleep. She adjusted the seat belt for me and come by often to see how i see how i was. It was a joy to travel till the mid 70's and got infinitely worse under reagan who got rid of regulations. Since then it has been downhill.
In fact in those days it was cheaper, if you had the time, to take ships everywhere. Much cheaper than planes and much more fun. I went to australia from england on a ship. Took 3 weeks but i had so much fun.
I want to go back to my days!

[depakid]

145. Americans declared war on its youth sometime in the 1980's

Defunding education, libraries, etc,. paranoia about crime, zero tolerance, the list goes on. This is just one more example of that attitude.

Down the lone of course- it may turn the other way- todays kids will defund the boomers' and Gen Xers' services and yank their driving privileges....

[Hello_Kitty]

153. They declared war on certain young young people

Poor and minority children get programs defunded while white middle class and affluent families get tax credits and perks. Bill Clinton "reformed" welfare to kick millions of poor people off badly needed public assistance. At the same time he gave middle class parents a generous, and unnecessary, child tax credit. In my state of AZ, public school funding has been cut to the bone, with thousands of teachers being laid off and the ones remaining teachings classes with as many as 50 students in them. But of course the wealthier residents get to use a tax credit to help fund private school tuition or activities for the public schools in affluent districts.

[depakid]

159. That, too

Difficult to think of a more counterproductive set of policies.

If one wanted a nation to decline- these sorts of deals would be at the top of the to do list.

[Indenturedebtor]

200. They won't have to. Our ability to fund those programs has been outsourced

We live in a "Service Economy" which equals - Serve the Boomers in every way that hasn't been outsourced to India so that the Boomers can see their stock prices go up 1/2 a point.

But until the country completely devolves into a 3rd world state, we'll have an ever increasing percentage of our pitiful wages sucked out to keep Boomers as comfortable as possible.

[seabeyond]

250. this is what i see. nt

[Number23]

147. "anyone who thinks Southwest did the right thing by tossing that lady and her toddler off the plane

is a heartless bastard."

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree. Hear, hear! :applause:

It's going to get to the point where I'm surprised these discussions are allowed here. They bring out the ugliest, nastiest most hateful people with the ugliest, nastiest responses who come after you with guns blazing and then play "victim" when you give what you got back just as hard.

But I take comfort -- the last few threads on this have been ugly but one thread got 2500 views, 124 replies and all of 25 recs. Another one got damn near **7 THOUSAND** views, **360 replies** and again, all of about 25 recs, probably from the same damn people. So I do believe that the (silent but vast) majority of people here are disgusted by the mean-spirited and idiotic anti-children mentality that's spreading over DU and much of the Internet.

Half these people with the nastiest, most judgmental comments -- man, I would LOVE to talk to their parents and find out what kind of children they were. Probably every bit as deranged and hateful as the personas they portray here on DU.

[Hello_Kitty]

150. Gosh, I wish people got half as riled up about the actual abuse and neglect of children

As they do about curmudgeons typing things that parents find insulting on the internets.

[Number23]

180. I actually do. Thanks for your obvious concern!

[Hello_Kitty]

185. Glad to hear it.

Because I was beginning to think you actually did consider curmudgeons on the internets to be a bigger threat to children than abuse or neglect. I marvel at the fact that people say I hate children, when I rarely (or never) say an unkind word about the children themselves. You'll never see me referring to small children as "brats" or worse here. I confine my negative remarks to entitled-acting obnoxious parents. Which is perceived by some to be a vicious attack on children. Funny, I thought that things like beating, starving, verbally assaulting, sexual molestation, etc., were indicative of a hatred for children, or at least a disregard for their well-being. Of course, a lot of the people who do those things are parents. Oddly enough.

[Number23]

188. lol The day that what you think about me matters one WHIT will be the day the whole Internet comes

crashing to the ground. And since I have no idea what you are talking about and why you keep talking to me, I'll just say -- Have a good day! :hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

194. Then why the fuck have you spent half the day responding to these threads?

You do care what we think, obviously.

:eyes:

[Number23]

204. lol Baby, I said I don't care what YOU think. lol! Now please run along and bother someone else!

You sound unhinged and very unwell.

[Hello_Kitty]

212. Okay, stop responding to my posts then.

You sound like someone desperately in need of attention.

And people like that ALWAYS have kids. Always.

[Number23]

223. lol You initiated this whole conversation! Read the thread, girl. You started this with YOUR reply

to ME! :rofl:

Good Lord, unhinged and CHILDISH too??! Awesome combination you've got there. And people as childish as you NEVER seem to have kids. Never. Praise the Lord for that!!

[Hello_Kitty]

231. Okay, all kidding aside:

And people this damned childish NEVER seem to have kids. Never. Praise the Lord for that!!

You cannot be serious in saying that.

Currently we have reality shows are devoted to childish people breeding children. Millions of children are horribly abused and neglected because they were brought into the world by people who either didn't want them or who lack the maturity and self-control to care for them properly. The memes that parenthood transforms everyone who does it into a paragon of maturity and altruism, or that parenthood is de facto evidence of those attributes, are possibly the most pernicious and dangerous ever to exist in human thought.


Yeah, damned childish people have children. All the time.

[Hello_Kitty]

266. BTW, 4750 views on this OP. Negative recs.

Looks like DU isn't as keen to defend lousy parents as you think it is.

Very telling that it hasn't been locked like mine and others were. Very telling about what group has privileged status on DU.

[Number23]

269. Yawn. Good Lord, are you still here???!

WHY??!!! :rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

270. Because you keep responding?

Remind me again why those of us who don't have kids are the "childish" ones?

[Number23]

271. Can someone on DU PLEASE chat with Hello_Kitty? This child is desperate with a capital D

Just overlook the fact that she is obviously lonely and desperate enough to have to keep responding time and time again to someone who has already called her stupid and crazy a few times. I know reading her posts, it's not hard to understand WHY she's so lonely but I sure would appreciate the distraction.

((And as proof of her obvious insanity, I'm sure that she will KEEP responding to me even though I have already ended one sub-thread with her by ignoring her deranged behind.)) Perhaps if someone else were to take it upon themselves to please chat with this sad, desperate, MISERABLE person, their act of charity will be appreciated by the DU Gods.

Thank you in advance.

[Hello_Kitty]

272. Maybe you should make your plea on a thread that has a positive number of recs?

Because the opinion expressed on this OP doesn't appear to be very popular, despite your belief that you and the OP, who thinks nothing of changing shitty diapers on the seat of a plane, reflect the views of the majority of DU.

Seriously though, making offensive jokes about mental illness is not exactly demonstrative of your maturity level.

[superduperfarleft]

164. Sounds to me like you just realized you're in way over your head when it comes to children.

Maybe you should've thought of that before having children as opposed to demanding that the rest of the world, childless or otherwise, bend to your every demand.

And no, I don't hate kids. It's the parents that I'm tired of.

[debbierlus]

178. Two year olds do not have the self regulation capacity to sit for long periods

And, I watched the very best of parents try to deal with a child who has a meltdown on a plane. What the hell do you expect the parent to do? Tape their mouth shut. You can shush, rock, try to sing, distract, bounce, try a million things and many times, they just do not work.

I can't believe the viciousness of responses to the original poster on this thread. Everything from comparing a two year old to a border collie (arguing if the kid was trained properly by the parent, the kid would be fine) to calling the kids brat.

[comrade snarky]

190. For the love of FSM

The OP is the one who compared kids to dogs. My statement about the border collies was a dig at her parenting ability. Not as good as the average sheepherder. Get it?

No one, not one post on this thread hasn't been understanding of parents who TRY to deal with an unruly child.

The problem is the ones like the OP who are far too special to concern themselves with any consideration of other people. Self centered dolts who think they shouldn't be removed from a plane because Timmy is screaming so loudly people cant hear the safety instruction.

[Hello_Kitty]

196. Then they probably shouldn't be on planes, unless absolutely necessary.

Why is a parent's vacation so all-fired important that they'd subject an infant or toddler to a hellish plane trip? Why not wait until the child is at least 4 or 5 before taking him/her on planes? I thought parenthood was about sacrificing and being unselfish.

[Codeine]

201. It is about sacrifice and selflessness.

The difference is that they demand that everyone else be the ones to make the sacrifices and be unselfish. Their precious little Dakota or Aiden or Wakely is FARRR more important than you or I will ever be.

[Hello_Kitty]

207. Exactly.

They want to enjoy all the amenities they enjoyed as non-parents, while being accommodated by others to do so. And then they STILL want their asses kissed for doing "the most important job in the world".

[debbierlus]

277. I see. So travel should be restricted with kids under 5 unless it is non leisure related?

So as to not inconveinence the other travelers, if they get fussy....

Interesting perspective.

[Hello_Kitty]

289. Actually, so as not to inflict an uncomfortable experience, needlessly, on the child.

I thought that was clear in my post. As many others have pointed out, flying is a shitty experience for adults these days (and it was no picnic for toddlers even back in the heyday of air travel) so why subject a 2 year old to it so you can have a holiday?

[Malikshah]

206. Parents used to raise their children well. As for the heartless bastard crack at the end...

Look in the mirror. Enabling misbehavior will only cause trouble in the end.

Meltdown? Really? Unless the child has been diagnosed with something, there is absolutely no valid reason to have a meltdown.

The one having the meltdown is clearly the parent who allows it.

Feel put upon? Doesn't feel good, does it? Just dishing back a little in response to one of the more self-centered posts in a while.

[Codeine]

215. Precisely.

I did not have public meltdowns as a child, nor did any of the other children in our extended family -- it simply wasn't tolerated. When I was five we flew on Western Airlines (remember them?) four times in the space of a week and neither I nor my two-year-old sister created a scene. No DVD player, no juice box, no Nintendo DS, no special bullshit. I think sis had a coloring book and I had a Ranger Rick magazine. We were quiet because that was what was demanded of us.

Children who "meltdown" are children who have been trained to have behavioral problems by the shitty fucking parenting of their overly-entitled parents who think they accomplished something profound because they've discovered that letting a cumshot loose inside makes a baby. Well congratu-fucking-lations -- you've figured out how to breed! Now get Little Madison's dirty diaper off the fucking seat, mmkay?

[superduperfarleft]

255. + one million. n/t

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

214. My guess after reading your responses in this thread

Is that you are one of those parents that takes no responsibility for your childs behavior. It is not the airlines responsibility to parent your child it is yours. If you cant control your child you have no business subjecting a plane load of people to your crappy parenting skills.

And before you start your, you proibably dont know what its like to have a two year old garbage, my oldest is 5 now, He has flown many times and has known from the time he could speak that tantrums are not an option. We have flown with him several times and we always bring thingsa to entertain him. We would never for a second depend on the airline to do that for us and if you are depending on them to do so you are as foolish as the day is long IMHO.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

221. Parents used to be more responsible.

[Geek_Girl]

228. When I was a kid I thought flying was fun and we were treated well by the staff

I think most people got very good service on the planes back in the 70's. I wouldn't even think about taking my child on a plane now. Because people in general are treated like shit. If I can't drive or go by train or boat I'm not going period. Fuck the airlines. Unless they start providing quality service again they're not seeing a damn cent from me.

[nolabear]

229. From one who's been in the trenches, thanks!

Little children cannot--and I mean CAN NOT--calm themselves down when under stress. Parents can do their best but in the constraints of an airplane, an environment that, frankly, it should be criminal to make anyone have to bear, there "control your child" concept is just plain stupid. What, hit them? That'll work. Drug them into oblivion? It's dangerous, though many a parent has done the benedryl thing, to mixed results. Nobody on that plane is suffering more than that child and his parents.


If the adults who spout venom think the kid can control hhis tantrum, I'd advise them to consider their own anger and MAN (or WOMAN) UP! This ain't Darfur; it's a bloody inconvenience.

[Codeine]

241. Bullshit.

Kids did not behave that way when I was young, and they do not behave that way outside of the United States for the most part.

[Hello_Kitty]

254. Drugging kids is dangerous? Who knew?

Well, except when you're pumping them full of Adderol, Ritalin, or Prozac as so many parents are doing these days.

[Hekate]

257. I'm with you. And let me be the 5th Rec, until someone UnRecs again. nt

[npk]

263. Airlines use to serve hard liquor

Not that cheap shit that they serve today. In those days a few glasses of rum would take care of any screaming baby. In fact the plane could be on fire and I wouldn't notice.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

275. Another heartless bastard here

And I have traveled with small children internationally. If you can't control their screaming, then stay off public transportation.

[shintao]

279. A Child Sedative is all that is needed

Surely mommy can slip a micky in booboo's bottle before the flight.

There are two main types:

an antihistamine preparation (such as Phenergan) in the correct dosage for your child administered to induce drowsiness and sleep
a stronger sedative, such as Vallergan, carefully measured to match your child’s weight to induce sleep.


I suggest you put a wee drop of lavender oil onto baby's cuddly, or on any sheets he is using, or some Badger Sleep Balm for you whilst you cuddle baby will be restful for everyone.

[comrade snarky]

283. In one of Douglas Adams books

An entire civilization ended it's warlike ways when one person invented a fly smart enough to go through the open half of a window and an off switch for children.

Sounds like a nice place.

[cherokeeprogressive]

281. OP: "I have to take Xanax when I fly, or I'm completely miserable (a vodka on the rocks too)"

Does the Xanax and vodka help you tolerate the intimidating TSA employees, the rude Gate Attendants, the mean Flight Attendants, or the passengers who are angry at the notion of smelling your kid's shitty diaper while they're trying to enjoy the $5 packet of peanuts and $7 dollar cocktail that's sitting two feet from it?

Do you regularly drink vodka when you take Xanax? That's a TOTALLY unsafe way to fly if, God forbid, something extreme should happen and you needed a clear mind in order to keep your kids safe while others around you were totally losing their cool.

For that matter, what if something like that happened at home?

[Codeine]

286. The vodka is there as an emergency disinfectant

for all the fucking baby shit she's smearing around the cabin.

[ShortnFiery]

287. IMO, the problem is with us parents. Our children are not little cult objects to

be spoiled and treasured by everyone around them. Often times they can be rude and we, as parents don't expect them to treat adults with courtesy and respect.

It's up to US to discipline our children to focus on THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR FIRST lest they be bitter old mean-spirited adults who blame everyone but themselves for their plight in this world. :shrug:

[Codeine]

292. Oh my god.

I'm agreeing with you. :wow:

[marshall]

290. I do agree that airlines used to be far more child friendly

I have flown hundreds of times since the sixties. I recall people with small children always being allowed to board early. Now that I have a toddler and fly alone with him, I've come to realize that small children are just one of the crowd now. We get no pre-boarding assistance, I have to jostle against fellow passengers who push and complain. I get no assistance from anyone as I try to get my child into his seat and push carry-ons into the over head bin without dropping them on his head--in fact I get glares from people who just want to get by me and get in their seats.

However, I do think Southwest was right to throw this woman off the plane. Her child posed a safety hazard.

[Hello_Kitty]

294. "Kids should not be taken on planes" Another parent weighs in.

"When I plaintively looked at people for approval and they smiled back, I thought they thought my kids were cute, special even, and that we, the parents, were incredible cultural ambassadors and amazing parental commandos who should be commended, possibly publicly recognised for taking child-rearing to the level of an extreme sport as we displayed commitment to quality time and expanding their horizons.

I now know you thought we were indulgent wankers selfishly inflicting our need to make people think we were better than them on the rest of the world. And the truth is, we were. I am so sorry. It's only now I realise the only reason you smiled back was because, sure, you had eight hours with my evil little freaks but you knew we were all stuck with each other for the rest of our lives.

Where has this sudden urge to apologise come from when my kids are now aged six, eight and 11? Because I recently went to Europe on my own for the first time since having children and I was stuck next to 18-month-old twins. I had no choice but to reach for the alcohol, ear plugs and eye-mask and spend those 24 hours reflecting on the stunning heights of my selfishness and delusion. Please bear with me, I need to share so I can move on and grow.

My wall of shame: a three-year-old in Bali - I am sorry; a one and four-year-old in Vanuatu - guilty as charged; a one, two and five-year-old in Borneo - what was I thinking? A two, three and a six-year-old in Vietnam - shame on me; a three, four and seven-year-old in Thailand - I feel sick just saying it; Sydney twice; Port Douglas three times. They didn't swim there. They went on planes. And I put them there. Please forgive me."

more

She admits that her kids barely remember anything about those trips.

[tammywammy]

295. Your link doesn't work. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

297. Try this.

http://www.mymooneevalley.com.au/blogs/national-comment/kids-should-not-be-taken-on-planes/1643598.aspx

[comrade snarky]

299. Never understood people who take a one year old on a vacation

It's going to be hard for the parents and the kid isn't going to enjoy it much either. Like the author says, the child isn't going to remember anything so it's no more enriching than going on a picnic or hike every day for a week.

With the writers kids being six, eight and eleven I'd say this would be a great time to take them somewhere. Out of the US if she could do it. They would benefit enormously from experiencing another culture at that age.

[Hello_Kitty]

307. Exactly. Some kids as young as 4 might enjoy a trip

If it were to Disney World or some place like that. But I can't for the life of me figure out what people think a baby or a 2-3 year old is going to get out of interstate or international travel.

BTW, I can't believe this thread STILL hasn't been locked. I am now positive that the entitled rude parent brigade hasn't pestered the mods about it because the OP is in their favor.

[guitar man]

305. yeah , I remember those days

:rofl:

[n2doc]

306. I was on a flight out of DC National last weekend and saw a kid treated right

Girl, about 8-10ish, Got invited by the Pilot to come in and sit in his chair and look around. She seemed pretty happy about it. Had several other families on board with really little kids/babies, some who cried a lot, but no rudeness from anyone including the attendants.

Just like anything, depends on the crew. I have been on flights with some real Authoritarian idiots.

[Taverner]

308. Yes and yes, but it is not that clear cut

Being a frequent flyer let me be the first to say I feel their pain

You try being a serve on a 200 mph skateboard. Add to that angry passengers, shit for pay and the reality that you will be doing this again once you land.

BUT no, they shouldn't have kicked the kid and mom off

Shit - there HAS to be a better way to get from point a to point b

[Name removed]

310. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.