Hilary Clinton is a crappy diplomat, from what I've seen.

[DaveinJapan]

Just finished watching clips on the Maddow show of her glib replies to Pakistani citizens asking exactly WHY it was okay for U.S. drones to be killing them...

Her retorts were obtuse, loathsome and very, very glib. If I were one of the ones asking the questions I would think "fuck you" might be an appropriate response to her words.

I'm thinking she kinda sucks as a diplomat, to be honest. President Obama should've put her in charge of heathcare or something else.

Grr!

[ixion]

1. Yeah, I would tend to agree.

She seems to muck up these excursions more often than not, thus far.

[rug]

2. Who's ordering the drones?

It is hard to give a rational explanation for it.

[DaveinJapan]

5. Excellent point. But it's her job to deal with that in any case, right?

Being sarcastic towards the people we are bombing doesn't seem like the best way to go about it, to say the least.

[rug]

9. It is. Sometimes glib works, sometimes it doesn't.

I haven't been following this trip too closely but from what I gather she was supposed to put the pressure on the Pakistani government to ratchet up its anti-terror activities. While that "tough talk" was presumably done behind close doors, this may have been part of a public strategy to pressure the government. I didn't see the clip you wrote of so I can't speak with any confidence.

Anyway, it's a shitty policy, good PR oe no.

[karynnj]

73. That's not what HRC or Richard Holbrooke said prior to the visit

It was to improve the trust and friendship between the two countries. She was going to announce several approved, ready to go electrical projects. She was also supposed to deal with their sense that we do not appreciate the effort in their country against the terrorists - that led to over 1 million internally displaced people.

The fact is that ANY US leader would have met a hostile reception - and Holbrooke, Clinton et al should have known that from the hostility that greeted John Kerry a few weeks before. Kerry was able to keep his cool and to repeat the goal of the aid bill and that it did not threaten Pakistan's sovereignty. It was beyond foolish to put HRC in an open, public, televised "town hall".

[marshall]

90. Where's those gestapo boots Condi wore on her diplomatic outings?

Those boots and her expressions--she scared the hell out of people.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rug]

4. That's diplomatic.

[DaveinJapan]

6. I'm not a diplomat.

[jonnyblitz]

8. i rec'd to counter the unrec. she was really horrible with regards

to this pakistan thing. many people here at DU are unprincipled party/politician loyalists and all they see is you are bashing their beloved favorite politician and it doesn't matter if you are correct in your assessment.

[DaveinJapan]

11. Thanks. :) I understand and appreciate your input very well and I feel the same way. nt

[mmonk]

7. Diplomacy is usually left for diplomats. That isn't her job that I'm aware of.

[DaveinJapan]

12. That's strange. I've so often heard the office of SoS referred to as "the top U.S. Diplomat".

Guess not.

:eyes:

[dkf]

15. I thought that was the point of the job. No?

[mmonk]

29. Yes. But differing in that they are to express the president's policy

as the supreme position for negotiation for public consumption. Other diplomats can give a softer policy position or expression of it in direct talks to their leadership. Personally, I don't like someone that has always been more concerned with tough appearances for domestic political consumption in the position of Secretary of State. I also do not like the policy.

[Life Long Dem]

45. I'm sure it's Obama's job though.

I'm just really glad she didn't get her way this last election.

[wordpix]

79. Wasn't Dept. of State morphed from the original Dept. of War? I think so...

[TwilightGardener]

16. I can't imagine anyone who would need diplomatic skills more than the SOS, frankly.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. The SOS is the Top Diplomat. nt

[karynnj]

74. Secretary of State is not a diplomatic "job"

Who knew? It was always suppose to be.

[izquierdista]

10. She already fucked up health care once

Be thankful she's not President; think how horrible that would be.

[Bitwit1234]

40. Bull absolute bull

SHE DIDN'T mess up health care. That was nothing wrong with the plan. Amendments could have been added to satisfy the country. WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE PLAN IS THE REPUBLICAN IN CONGRESS '''''KILLED'''''''IT they did not and do not want any kind of health care.

And I think she would be a darn good president. For the last twenty people have been trying to get the Middle East conflict resolved...now why blame the fact that they won't come to the table on her. And besides it is about time some one told Pakistan that they are a bunch of obstructionists and as bad as the republicans. GET IN THEIR FACE.

[izquierdista]

43. Which she should have accounted for

Her plan on health care was similar to Operation Barbarossa -- just plow ahead with it and conquer. Absolutely no clue what to do when the opposition began to counterattack.

She would have been even worse than her NAFTA pushing, welfare ending, Glass-Steagall torpedoing husband.

[karynnj]

78. No - it was never even voted on in either House

It did not have the support of even one Senator on the Finance Committee, and the Democrats controlled the Senate!

[madrchsod]

13. she really had a hard time dealing with the intelligence of her questioners

hillary found out that the young ladies of pakistan are no one to trifle with. hillary did`t look very stateswoman like during those exchanges.well on second thought, it`s really hard to defend a clear violation of international law.




can we say-Cambodia?

[dkf]

14. She isn't very smooth certainly.

Frankly I've always found her a little scary, and a little too non-empathetic. I was tuning her out at work, but my co-worker was listening and she is the one who thought Hillary didn't connect on a human level.

I think Hillary is excellent as an analytical type, but not an especially great people person.

[Whisp]

48. she folds under pressure and then gets defensive and rude

if there is any contest to what she is saying. I've seen that so many times during the campaign. That is her idea of being 'strong' - it's not strong its obnoxious and rude and almost immature.

you are right that she is much better suited as an analytical type - she can be very impressive that way but put her in a situation where she has to think on her feet in a dicey situation and she takes things personal, it seems.

[tabasco]

50. Exactly.

She was a poor choice for the job.

[AndyA]

17. I didn't see the clip you referred to, so I'm not sure what was said or how it was said,

but we must consider there are likely other conversations happening that we aren't aware of. The government over there has done a lousy job dealing with the Taliban and insurgents. It's time they get the message that we're tired of policing their country for them. If they want to enjoy the benefits of the American people, in the form of investments in their country, and other diplomatic amenities, they need to take care of the people living there that want to see everyone in the Western world dead.

I don't know the details, but I dare say if they'd have done their job, the drones wouldn't have been necessary. They know what the deal is, they know where the evil doers are hiding, so they just need to get on with it.

[Flaneur]

55. "We're tired of policing their country for them."

Did they ask us to?

[Obamanaut]

59. Perhaps it would be to our mutual benefit (US and Pakistan) to

stop the policing, and the foreign aid. Goodness knows the politicians here could probably find some nice pork projects to use that windfall influx of unspent tax dollars. :sarcasm:


Bring all the troops home from all of the more than 700 military sites in the nearly 40 foreign countries, sell the equipment to the local populace at garage sale rates, and use all that money here at home. I've heard rumors there are millions here who could use some health care. So, there you go.

edited to add: Might as well review the rest of the foreign aid give-away programs while we're at it.

[northzax]

69. Yes, actually

The US is doing military action on Pakistani soil. You can infer from the lack of complaints from Islamabad that they're fine with it.

[closeupready]

94. Duh, ironing out the widespread complaints is the very PURPOSE of her visit.

n/t

[northzax]

97. Oh, are people complaining? Sure

Is the government? Not really.

[DaveinJapan]

18. Thanks for all the insightful replies, everyone!

Funny, almost 300 views, a generous handful of replies mostly in agreement with my original sentiment, and yet still in unrec territory as it was since about 5 seconds after I posted it.

I'm starting to think this unrec thing is a stupid idea (but that's really beside the point, but it is pretty annoying when the ones doing it don't have the guts to actually write a note about WHY they feel that way, which I would very much like to read).

[TexasObserver]

19. The thread is a crappy thread, from what I've seen.

[dkf]

20. You mean too much reality, not enough fanboy?

true.

[TexasObserver]

21. Too much ignorance, not enough knowledge.

As you just demonstrated.

[HughMoran]

26. "fanboy"

:wtf:

[dkf]

36. We aren't freepers you know.

Unquestioning blind loyalty is not for us, or at least me.

[HughMoran]

39. ...but you're acting like one

Opinions vary - we're allowed to have different opinions as liberals.

YOU'RE the one trying to stifle conversation by childishly calling names.

Hypocrite.

[dkf]

56. Hello, I said we AREN'T fanboys.

[HughMoran]

64. Uggh, maybe I should lay off the crack pipe

:rofl:

(no, I don't do crack)

[noamnety]

22. Do you have a link to a video?

In fairness to her, I imagine it would be very hard to explain diplomatically to any group of people who hasn't attacked us why we are killing their families.

[madrchsod]

28. here....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ "boundless war"

these young ladies put her in a box and she could`t figure out a way to out of it. the abilitly to say as much as one can to bury your questioner is the standard for a great polition. that`s why the senate named it`s building for evert dirksen of illinios.

[noamnety]

53. Thanks for the link

She's stuck defending an indefensible action, and doing a poor job of it, for sure.

But to me, she's a poor diplomat and secretary of state because she's supporting a violation of international law, not because she can't give a good explanation to a group of her victims.

[closeupready]

95. International Law is - "What we say, goes."

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0303b.asp

>>It would be a mistake to regard oil as the only or even the top reason for current U.S. policy in the Middle East. That’s just one part of the broader rationale discussed above. President George H.W. Bush revealed it back in 1990 when he was amassing his coalition to expel Hussein’s army from Kuwait. The occupation would end, Bush said, because “what we say goes.” <<

[Altoid_Cyclist]

23. This is one reason that I'm glad that she wasn't put in charge of Health Care.

This is during the 2007-2008 cycle, but it is a red flag.

Guess Who's Really Raking In The Health Care Contributions?

The 47 Democrats at the time took in a combined $19.5 million while 49 Republicans raised just $10.9 million from health professionals. Then Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) raked in more than anyone else in Washington with $3.9 million.

Rest of story:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/11/blogs/coopscorner/entry5304468.shtml

She didn't do much for the image of the US with her attitude during the questions from the crowd in Pakistan. She pretty much acted like she was too good for them and that she was doing them a favor just by being there.

[majamay]

24. Hillary just said that the Afghanistan run-off is "unaffected" by Abdullahs' boycott

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/31/afghan-election-runoff-no_n_341174.html

[Walk away]

25. This woman has been working for nine months....

and you have seen a few clips on TV. You are right about one thing. You are basing your nasty remarks on what you have seen and it might add up to what???? a few hours of video tape in the past few months? I doubt even that much. Most, if not all, of her work is done behind closed doors. She is no Barack Obama when it comes to relating to regular people on a personal level but neither was my cancer surgeon and I have been cancer free without kemo for eleven years. You really have no idea if she is good at her job or not. It's the terrible situations that are avoided and the wars that aren't fought that are proof of success.

It is Barack Obamas policies she is defending. I have never heard him even try to defend them. What would be your excuse for us sending drones to kill these people? Maybe these women should be asking the man responsible for the decision.

[madrchsod]

32. she represents the man and the country that employs her.

those young ladies asked her and she did`t answer because she has no answer. we ask and we get no answers other than trust us we know what we are doing.

i remember another democratic and republican president that said trust us....

[tularetom]

27. Funny you should mention that

I rarely watch TV but my wife had it on and as I entered the TV room Hillary was on, holding that q and a session. Wife says,"Listen to her, she sounds awfully rude for somebody that's supposed to be the head of our diplomatic service". I didn't hang around to listen because I really didn't give a crap, but I thought about it later and thought to myself how strange it was for her to talk like that in a country where we need a lot of help catching the asshole we really should be after.

Then again she does serve at the pleasure of the president. To me the big test for Obama (or any president for that matter) is does he have the balls to fire or at least discipline his subordinates who fuck up? I think Hillary fucked up, so we shall see.

[madrchsod]

31. she was really rude to those in her african dust-up.

she`s clearly out of her element when dealing with people who challenge her. but-it`s still early so maybe she`ll figure out how to be a secretary of state.

[saltpoint]

30. Health care wouldn't appear to be her long suit.

In her defense, she walked into a long-standing hornet's nest, although her public remarks were obtuse, bordering on unworkable.

[RC]

33. Hillary is a Hawk. Can you imagine her as president right now?

We could have 3 wars going right now.

[madrchsod]

34. we already do....iran.

[wisteria]

35. I think she would have been wonderful with health care, it was something she was passionate about.

I don't want to put Clinton down, but I think her attributes would be better served elsewhere in the administration. Of course, in fairness to her in Pakistan, she did not start the hostility against us. And, the administration supports the Drone attacks and that is something that is hard to defend in some circles.

[DURHAM D]

37. obviously you haven't seen much... nt

[MyNameGoesHere]

38. Yeah it sucks she has to defend the

indefensible policy of this Administration of attacking a sovereign nation. She should quit in protest.

[saltpoint]

41. --setting up a 2012 matchup between Hillary and Sarah Palin:

Ex-Public Servants.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

42. She comes across as crass and imperious- Rather representative I'd say

Clinton in Pakistan encounters widespread distrust of U.S.

The discontent is not just from radicals, even college students and respected journalists question Washington's intentions in Pakistan. Some liken U.S. drone missile strikes to terrorism.

Reporting from Islamabad, Pakistan - Every time Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton tried to win over Pakistanis during her three-day charm offensive last week, they fired back a polite but firm message:

We don't really trust your country.

No matter how hard Clinton tried to reassure audiences in Lahore and Islamabad with talk of providing economic aid where it's needed most, Pakistanis seized on her visit as the perfect moment to lash out at a U.S. government they perceive as arrogant, domineering and insensitive to their plight.

At a televised town hall meeting in Islamabad, the capital, on Friday, a woman in a mostly female audience characterized U.S. drone missile strikes on suspected terrorist targets in northwestern Pakistan as de facto acts of terrorism. A day earlier in Lahore, a college student asked Clinton why every student who visits the U.S. is viewed as a terrorist.

...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-clinton-pakistan1-2009nov01,0,1313175.story?track=rss

[bvar22]

76. arrogant, domineering and insensitive

That about sums up Hillary's response to this group.

[sattahipdeep]

44. Rachel maddow said she would kill Bin Laden with a spoon.

“executions without trial” Maddow and the spoon?

[Number23]

46. I just rec'd this to see what would happen but you're still at less than 0

I love Hillary but this has not been a fabulous week for her. Come to think of it, her interaction with the students in the Congo wasn't her finest hour either.

[donheld]

47. I just unrecommended this cuz it's insane.

[DaveinJapan]

61. How so?

What exactly is insane about this topic?

Did you think Secretary Clinton handled those questions well or something?

[northzax]

71. Who cares? Honestly?

She's the Secretary of State. Her job is to represent the policies of the President of the United States to the governments of other countries. It's not her job to be nice, except when called for, or even to be pleasant to students. Her job is to be the stick to Obama's carrot. She's his enforcer, basically. She let's him stay above the fray, and from all reasonable accounts (I know a lot of fsos and foreign diplomats) she's doing that job well.

[donheld]

85. Yes I do. I think she's doing very well

[DaveinJapan]

93. You think she did well *in this case*?

If you can honestly answer "yes", then I want some of what you're smoking.

I don't have any Clinton bias one way or the other, I don't dislike her inherently and I haven't really had any opinion about until just recently, but the way she acted towards those students was really, really crappy. I would think it's pretty obvious (even the normally "go left go!" Maddow slammed her for it).

So again, what's so "insane" about this topic?

[cherokeeprogressive]

49. HC's a Diplomat?

Secretary of State yes, Diplomat no.

She doesn't have the skills, nor the temperament.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. She's trying to defend an indefensible policy of aggression.

And, doing a piss-poor job of doing that in the face of reality.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. those drones are beyond immoral and no one with a shred of morality

should be able to defend them well

if you can defend them and sound sincere, i would balk at your immorality

[bikingaz]

58. how can drones be immoral.

It is either the policy of using the drones in certain situations to be immoral or the people who order the killings using the drones that are immoral. And there is where the buck stops.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. i clearly meaant both the usage of them and the pretense that its not killing civilians

and is somehow magically making america safer

[Nikki Stone1]

57. You can be sure that any responses have been approved by the White House

And that's even more crappy. :(

[Whisp]

62. I'm not sure. That's just not Obama's style....

unless he wants Clinton to be the bad cop...
but she's not a good bad cop, she's just unsure of herself, takes it personal, has no deftness in that way when surprises come her way.

so, dunno. I doubt very much Obama wants to piss Pakistani's off like Hillary did, but, hey, who knows.

[joeybee12]

63. From what you've seen? Well, you haven't seen much.

More than happy to unrec this crap.

[DaveinJapan]

68. More than happy to, why?

What is it that you disagree about? You think her handling of the situation has been excellent?

How would you feel if some country bombed your family and the representative sent to talk to you about it told you to sit down and shut up?

[Liberation Angel]

65. Once again, Obama's "pragmatic" political decision hurts his presidency and world peace prospects

Hillary Clinton is imho the type of politician who would not mind undermining Obama's success to further her own ambitions.

Obama made a pragmatic and political decision to appoint her, but I really do not think she is right for the job and that prospects for peace suffer under her tenure as Sec of State.


It is a decision which ultimately may help Obama politically but will make world peace less likely (at least in the short term).

To be sure, this is a terribly complex negotiation, so missteps are to be expected: but I really wish Obama had a better sec of state in these arenas.

[forum slut]

66. She's a crappy diplomat because she can't make up good enough excuses for a crappy president ?

who makes crappy decisions? Is that what you're saying?

[DaveinJapan]

67. Wow, this is the number one "on the fence" topic! Neat. nt

[Beacool]

70. The question should have been made to the guy in the WH.

It is not up to her to stop the drones. The Left is way too funny. You defend Obama, but chastise the SOS for decisions that are not hers to make.

Hillary is doing a great job. Pakistan needed to be told to stop aiding and abetting the Taliban. If they had done this years ago, they wouldn't now have an expanded Taliban taking over their territory and bombing their citizens.

Furthermore, talk to people at State, they are extremely happy to have her as SOS. She's a vast improvement over the previous holder of the job.

:eyes:

[karynnj]

82. Pakistan is in the midst of a MAJOR attack on the Taliban, which has led to over 1 million

displaced people.

[Beacool]

88. Now they are, but what about in years past?

:shrug:

[karynnj]

89. The point is she was speaking this week, in the midst of this effort

This was meant to be a visit that would improve relations.

(I actually blame the state department planning - Hollbrooke and Patterson should have known that these events would have exposed HRC to the kind of hostility she met.)

[Beacool]

91. Well, we can agree to disagree.

IMO, it was high time that Pakistan went after the Taliban. Like she said in answer to a reporter's question: "they don't have to take the US money if they don't want to." But if we're doling out millions of dollars, then we have a right to see something in exchange for our money.

[opihimoimoi]

72. She is FAR BETTER than Rice/Powell ever was.....not perfect but not Faling

far better to worry about them GOPiacs and their relentless race toward being witless and hapless.

[JVS]

80. Rice is a very low bar to set, and I'm not sure she's better than Powell.

Basically, the SOS should have the intelligence to realize that when you've been waging war for 8 years and it has destabilized the area for your ally next door, you're supposed to respect their ordeal and be friendly toward them.

[Walk away]

84. Last I heard Hillary has not lied us into a war the way Powell did.

Colin Powell and his bottle of white powder helped murder 4,000 Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Can your hatred of the Clintons be that overpowering that you would make that comparison?

Pathetic!

[JVS]

86. My knowledge of what Powell has done is sketchy. Did he know any more than Hillary did when she...

voted for the war?

Warmongering (an activity of both of them) aside, I don't think he'd be foolish enough to be rude to an ally.

[Deja Q]

75. Would you post links to the Maddow show in question?

I'll admit I haven't seen officially yet... :(

[DaveinJapan]

81. Sure.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908 / "boundless war"

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. She's Been Doing A Great Job Since She's Been In The Position. I Couldn't Be Prouder Of Her.

I think you see what you want to see, and limit what you're willing to see with blinders. But ehh, who knows. To each their own. But I think she's done an amazing job all around so far.

[donheld]

83. Ditto

[liquid diamond]

87. Unrec

Hillary is doing a great job. I don't want a kiss ass for Secretary of State. Hillary is a no-nonsense representative for the U.S., and I respect her for that.

[druidity33]

92. from Reuters...

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSLV11497220091101

Pointing an accusing finger at the United States, the Palestinians on Sunday said Washington's backing for Israeli refusal to halt Jewish settlement expansion had killed any hope of reviving peace negotiations soon. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, buoyed by new-found support from the Obama administration, urged the Palestinians to "get a grip" and drop their settlement freeze precondition for restarting talks suspended since December. On a one-day Middle East visit on Saturday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton endorsed Israel's view that settlement expansion in the occupied West Bank should not be a bar to resuming negotiations -- contradicting the Palestinian position.

Netanyahu has proposed limiting building for now to some 3,000 settler homes already approved by Israel in the West Bank. He does not regard building in occupied East Jerusalem, annexed in defiance of international opposition, as settlement. U.S. President Barack Obama himself, after persuading Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in September to meet Netanyahu in New York, called only for "restraint" in settlement, not the "freeze" he had previously proposed.

Stung by Obama's about-face and Clinton's remarks, the Palestinians voiced their frustration.

"The negotiations are in a state of paralysis, and the result of Israel's intransigence and America's back-pedaling is that there is no hope of negotiations on the horizon," Abbas spokesman Nabil Abu Rdainah said.

...more...

I don't think Hillary has a lot to work with in this situation. The Palestinians are gonna get the raw end of the deal, like always. It's going to be hard for anyone to get them to accept concessions of any kind at this point.

:(

[eridani]

96. Not really. There is nobody capable of putting a nice face on imperial bullying

Just about all US Sec States since WW II have had that problem, and she isn't any worse than the others.