Could we discuss Howard Dean for a second?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

First of all I have really been a fan of his for a long time. I admire him personally, his style, his Presidential campaign (hey Howard, we're a lot smarter now and we would not let a media sound bite kill your chances in the future) and his Democracy for America PAC which seems to be on the correct side in most issues I care about. See for yourself
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/

I would personally encourage Howard Dean to run for President again some time in the future and I think a lot of progressive more liberal types like me would support him.

Now here is my problem. Howard Dean was fierce about a REAL public option. I consider a real public option to be a publicly funded option available for any who want it as an alternative to private plans with government controlled rates, premiums, and drug negotiation. The major POINT of a public option is to be cheaper than private plans in order to drive down rates. I thought Dr. Dean shared my view and I signed his petition and encouraged others to do so as well. For old time's sake here is his website drive and comments about a real public option:

http://standwithdrdean.com/
*******************************************************
Here's when he said forget bi-partisanship and called the Republicans "insurance shills":
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/howard-dean-says-forget-bipartisan-he
********************************************************
Currently Dr. Dean seems to be supporting passage of the House bill- everything in this section is directly quoted from the article
http://rawstory.com/2009/10/dean-house-health-bill/
Dean: Even the weakened House health care bill ‘is real reform’
By David Edwards and Muriel Kane

Dean's reaction to the House bill was, "It's not the best we can do, but it's a very good start."

Leaders of the progressive caucus had hoped to see a stronger form of the public option in the bill, and Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) asked on the floor of the House, "Is this the best we can do? Mandating private insurance? Forcing people to buy private insurance policies or pay a penalty? ... Only 3% of Americans will go to a new public plan."

'I don't disagree entirely with Dennis," Dean told O'Donnell, but he pointed out that "they were fighting uphill against a very well-organized opposition, which has trouble telling the truth, and against an incredibly well-organized health insurance industry, which has given millions and millions of dollars to some of the people who are going to have to vote on this stuff."

"The fact is, this is real reform, Dean emphasized. "That's all I really care about, is real reform. ... It's not the kind of reform that I would have loved, but this is pretty good stuff, and it really is going to make a difference."
******************************************************
Now I'm getting that uh, oh, Not you too, Howard Dean! feeling.

Then the furor over the Eshoo Amendment over generics reveals this:
http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2009/07/21/biotech_firms_lobby_hard_for_say_on_healthcare/

and this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-love/howard-dean----now-a-shil_b_241465.html
James LoveDirector, Knowledge Ecology International
Posted: July 20, 2009 03:51 PM
Howard Dean -- Now a Shill for BIO

and this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS202387+29-Oct-2009+BW20091029
Howard Dean to Speak at the 2009 Mid-Atlantic Bio Conference
Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:36pm EDT
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My advice for Howard Dean:

Howard Dean, you have been a revered and trusted figure for many years for your outspoken and uninfluenced, non self-serving opinions. I saw you as possibly my future Presidential candidate to finally lead us out of the morass of both healthcare reform and campaign finance reform. I want to remind you that your single biggest personal asset is your credibility. I would hate to see you lose that. If you lose your personal credibility, no one will care much what your opinions are about anything. You are at the Ralph Nader fork in the road and I urge you to turn back. If you do in fact become a shill for the biotech industry it will be as though all the years of hard work you have already put in to improve the country didn't exist.

[handmade34]

1. Howard Dean was my Governor

he is pragmatic as well...

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

2. It's like he got a sudden attack of pragmatism.

As someone outside of government and the leader of a large advocacy PAC, he has no need to be pragmatic about social and political issues unless and until they effect his personal pocketbook.

Regarding biologics and generics, the FTC recommeded 0 years for drug exclusivity, Waxman's amendment was for 5 years, Obama advocated for 7, and the Eshoo Amendment and Howard Dean came down for 12 years, which is what the industry wanted. I thought Dean's position was odd at the time, but now I "get it". (sorry I don't have a link for the information above, it was in a link in one of the posts about the Eshoo amendment - I jotted down the figures, but have lost the link - maybe someone else has it)

[handmade34]

5. as a governor he was center

on many issues and not nearly as progressive as many would have liked. Howard Dean is a medical doctor and I suspect many of his attitudes and opinions stem from that training. I didn't support him in his run for president as I didn't think he could be as effective as we needed. I believe him to be an all round commonsense person but not the hero many make him out to be; although he did great things for Vermont in the way of healthcare reform.

[vi5]

3. Dean is at least being honest....

..and saying that it's not perfect but that pragmatically speaking it's a good starting point. And I believe that he really believes that.

What's going to annoy the shit out of me are these dems who KNOW this is a pretty shitty bill, who KNOW it's not going to do the trick, and who KNOW we completely got rolled by the republican minority and the blue dog dems, but who will STILL be out there crowing about what a great and historic acheivement this is. To them it will be all about the politics. All about believing the idiotic DC insider coctail party Village chatter about bipartisanship and believe that is what people wanted and will think THAT is the barometer of success rather than measuring success by whether or not the bill solves the fundamental problem at hand.

To put it in the cliched vernacular, there will be a flood of people on our tvs and in our papers pissing down our legs and telling us that it's raining.

To his credit Dean doesn't seem to be doing that. He's calling it as he sees it, he's not out there crowing or puffing his chest out in victory like the Senate and House dems will be doing and already are starting to do.

I trust Dean a fuck of a lot more than I trust almost any of the Dems in DC.

[KharmaTrain]

4. Howard Dean Is A Citizen Like You And Me...

He no longer is head of the DNC nor is involved in the working of the healthcare debate. It's unfortunate because I feel things would be moving in a different direction had he been selected to work on the negotiations. Instead he is a bystander to the process and trying to interpret where it stands and what type of bill will garner the necessary votes to pass. He can say he's for free healthcare and a car wash, but it means nothing.

He has said this is the best bill this Congress could come up with...and that's from someone who knows the intricacies of this chess game...not the zero sum, all-or-nothing game others wish for. He's seeing this, as I do, a first step...this country's infrascture both politically and economically aren't ready to accept much more. It's been a major triumph that the debate has gone this far without it being killed...and getting some kind of government program rolling (especially for those who have no coverage) and to reign in insuarnce company's anti-trust and draconian policies of not honoring their contracts and cancelling holders for "pre-existing conditions" is a vast improvement than over what was.

Is it the full package? Hardly...and futher changes will be needed. Now...we can start this kabuki theater all over again in 5 or 10 or 20 years or have an established public program that can be quietly expanded through future revisions and ammendments.

The game now has moved into the final stages...either you get the best deal you can or go home. Many have already thrown the board across the room...but that does little to start fixing this major problem. Politics is the art of the possible...not what Dr. Dean or you or me wish it to be.

Cheers...

[demwing]

6. So, are you saying that Howard Dean is truthful, honorable, and credible

only so long as he agrees with you?

[madokie]

7. In 2016 I would hope he'd be interested in running

[tularetom]

8. Listen the bush administration was adept at taking modest wins

and inflating them into major policy triumphs. Mission Accomplished was one example. We all thought it was a joke, and it turned out to be, but at the time it had the news media jumping backwards through their own assholes praising the boy king. If Dean has learned a little of that and is inflating the lousy package Pelosi announced into the be all and end all of health care, then good on him. Once that sucker gets signed by Obama they can forget about a challenge to him in 2012. And they can fix the crappy bill later. It's a foot in the door.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

13. I understand it's a foot in the door.

I just think that Dean at this point should still be pushing for the real reform he's noted for. There is still a window of opportunity to get some better things inserted into the bill. Pelosi said she would consider floor amendments.

[stray cat]

9. If you think Dean is gullible or a lier why would you support him?

IF you think he is lying about his opinion on the bill surely you don't trust him to tell you the truth about anything else.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

10. I don't think he's gullible

and I don't think he is lying about his opinion on the bill. A poster above used the term pragmatism and perhaps that is the actual explanation or compromise or realism or whatever other word is always used when you see people whom you once felt epitomized uncompromising ideals or standards start evolving in a direction you wish they wouldn't take. I thought Howard Dean was a born and bred iconoclast whose opinion could not be purchased. I'm starting to think possibly I was mistaken and it shakes me.

Oh well, won't be the first or the last time.

[dysfunctional press]

11. okay...second's over.

next topic?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

12. This is the message I fear is behind Howard Dean's evolution

If Howard Dean - the brave, the unbowed, the liberal and progressive icon, the man who has always spoken truth to power regardless of the consequences, the man who has built a very powerful voice with his Democracy for America PAC, the man whom I credit with the GREAT Democratic victories of the last election, the man who was trying very hard to lead healthcare reform in the right direction, had some sudden epiphany where he woke up one morning and said "F!@k it. It's pointless. I need to do the best I can for myself and my family and screw this shit"

THEN WHAT HOPE IS THERE LEFT FOR ME THAT WE WILL EVER GET REAL CHANGE IN OUR CORRUPT SYSTEM?

[graywarrior]

14. Grayson is giving the same message

Suddenly, everything is a good start.

[slipslidingaway]

15. My post last night - I did not sleep very well that night in May when I heard Dean...

state on the Ed Show that single payer was not off the table. I posted a poll shortly afterwards asking if people thought the public option was the same as single payer.

After that appearance I've listened more closely to what Dean said, there was a constant confusion of terms and selling the Obama plan of a public option as "being like Medicare."

Then there was the speech at the AHIP Convention in June telling the insurance companies the public option would not be that bad for them and the push for longer data exclusivity period on biologics.

In sum all very disappointing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6899592&mesg_id=6900593

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

16. I've been behind you on many things in the healthcare debate

I really appreciate your posts and your diligence.

[slipslidingaway]

17. Thanks....

I knew when I heard the two different plans being confused it would be trouble and it was difficult to hear Dean promoting the confusion on talk show after talk show. At least one DU'er has put me on ignore for raising this issue months ago...tread carefully. Thanks for raising this in order for others to think about these issues and possible conflicts.

:hug:

[slipslidingaway]

18. Just read the new Kip Sullivan article on the public options ....

and I agree with him that option advocates should not have continued to say the option would be like Medicare, but they did.

:(

snip>>

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/11/01/what-role-insurance-companie/

"...The initial reports by the Congressional Budget Office released in July made it even more obvious how badly the Democrats had shrunk the “option.” CBO estimated the Senate HELP Committee’s version of the “option” would enroll approximately zero people while the HR 3200 version would enroll roughly 10 million people. CBO is now saying
the new House version of HR 3200 (HR 3962) released by Speaker Nancy Pelosi on October 29 will enroll just 6 million people.

By no later than July, then, representatives of the “option” campaign had no excuses for comparing the “option” to the traditional Medicare program. That didn’t stop them from doing so, however. Hence the great confusion among members of the public, the media, pollsters, and even members of Congress about what the Democrats’ proposed “option” is and, therefore, the role corporations will play in its creation and administration.

When we knew for sure the “option” was going to be tiny, commonsense and a rudimentary knowledge of the health insurance industry should have told us the “option” would not be a uniform program like the traditional Medicare program but would instead be broken up into dozens or hundreds of individual programs or insurance companies, each serving a particular health insurance market, for example, California’s Bay Area or upstate New York..."


Howard Dean: "The public option is Medicare for God's sakes."

But it's not.
Tue, 08/18/2009 -

Video ...
http://www.correntewire.com/howard_dean_public_option_medicare_gods_sakes_its_not

[flyarm]

19. Thank you for your thread Phoebe Loosinhouse, it is honest to the core.

I too was baffled this week when Howard stomped for what came out of Congress , with the knowledge that what he was stomping for would hurt American women with cancer and other Americans with diseases that coukd be helped with generic medications , cost wise and health wise.

I don't want Howard to lose his credibility either..but he did with me this week..the issue of health care and generic medications and research for cures is just to close to me..as mu mom died of cancer and i saw how shitty she was treated..or i should say, how inhumane.

But we all need to ask ourselves..what is really important to us as Human beings first and then as Americans..and then as democrats.

I can not and will not stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone regardless of party if they sell the American people out on something so important as our health care.I believe it is a born right for each and every human to get good health care.

To see profit or greed come ahead of another humans beings health care to me is the worst of all evils.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

21. Thank you for your comment and understanding

It is honest and it reflects the bafflement, hurt, disbelief and genuine shock I always feel when IT HAPPENS YET AGAIN.

[eridani]

20. We don't have to eat a poison ivy salad just because it has expensive balsamic vinegar on it

I suspect that Dean is like a lot of Dems, sucked in by the yay for our side meme, which dictates that we must have some kind of legislation passed even if it destroys the rest of the economy to prop up one of our most non-productive sectors.

Guess what? We don't have to. Really, we don't. Why not just pull out the actually useful proposals and enact them as separate laws? That will satisfy the Dem's need to have something to show for all the uproar.

[mdmc]

22. --

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

23. Is that a no comment? What do you think?

Has Howard Dean compromised himself?

No, not at all

Maybe just a bit

Yes, absolutely


Will you accept his opinions :

The same as always, he's on our side

Depends on the topic now and whether he gets paid to think a certain way

No. Now he's just one more lackey on the payroll
*************************************************************

I loved him and his opinions unreservedly in the past, but now I am installing a filter.

[mdmc]

25. Howard Dean is a moderate dem..

He ain't Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders..

I was a big grassroots Dean guy back in 2003. He wasn't God then either. He was against the war, and more electable then the Sharpton, Braun, Kucinich crowd.

I would be disappointed in Bernie Sanders if he made these same comments. Dean ain't some radical leftie. He is center..

I support universal health care. I know Obama can't get it for us. I will take what Obama can deliver.

Dean is on our side..he is also a party lackey.. so take what he says for what it is worth.

Look to Bernie Sanders if ya want to know what is best..

[Orsino]

24. Politics is the art of the possible.

Congress doesn't *want* a real public option. The public doesn't really want one, either.

[sendero]

26. I'm not sure exactly what will be in the final bill..

... so it's impossible to form an impassioned opinion about it.

Since I've never caught Dean saying anything that didn't sound like his truth, I'm reluctant to decide he's gone off the wagon.

Maybe he just really believes that in the current political climate, this is the best we can do. I'm not sure that I don't believe that.

But again, we won't really know until it is law, lots of things can happen between here and there.