I stand with Barack Obama

[paulsby]

and his Afghanistan policy.

that's all. needed to be said. after reading umpteen posts critical of his stance on afghanistan, this thread was started to express support.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/documents/afghanistan_pakistan_white_paper_final.pdf

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-on-a-New-Strategy-for-Afghanistan-and-Pakistan

[conscious evolution]

1. I don't

Wars of aggression are wars of aggression no matter who the president is.

[AllentownJake]

2. It doesn't make any sense

K&U

[Odin2005]

3. I agree with you.

Just because I was against the Iraq disaster doesn't mean I'm a pacifist.

[sandnsea]

4. I didn't think he announced a policy yet

And with McChrystal in charge, I'm not sure any policy is going to work. I think we need to focus on the border and helping the farmers and rural towns. I don't know that this city strategy I'm hearing about is doing anything more than putting big targets on our troops.

[paulsby]

5. edit to add

i am editing my OP to list links for his policy.

[sandnsea]

7. There's a new Afghanistan strategy coming soon

The way the war is operated will necessarily affect the way NGO's and other aid and development assistance operates. I think it's fair for people to be hesitant, especially considering the reports of corruption all over the country.

[avaistheone1]

9. We need a strategy of books not bombs.

Bring the troops home and cut the shit.

[sandnsea]

19. I tend to agree

It makes me sick that this is what we've got, 8 years later. Probably the sickest of everything Bush did is fuck up Afghanistan. It should have been one swift terrorist assault - and then the most massive rebuilding of a society since Europe. Now, the only "good" reason I can think of to even stay in the region is Pakistan's nukes. That's how badly we've destabilized the area. It's insane.

[PurityOfEssence]

83. Yeah, well when it shows up, please have someone explain to me what this one was

This seems to be nothing but political appeasement and half-measures.

[Kermitt Gribble]

6. Afghanistan under bush = bad,

Afghanistan under Obama = good. Got it. :crazy:

[paulsby]

47. strawman = bad

fwiw, i stand with obama

i also agreed with bush that invading afghanistan was the correct decision. neglecting that front for the debacle that was/is iraq is another thing entirely

i stand with barack obama in that fighting the war in afghanistan is justified, but in iraq was not.

and that bush mismanaged afghanistan

no inconsistencies. just yer strawman

hth

[salguine]

87. "Just yer strawman". You forgot to say "FAIL". And say something about a pony, too. Lame-o.

[avaistheone1]

8. I condemn Obama's Afghanistan policy and Obama's war.

It's getting kind of difficult keeping the blood of that Nobel prize. Now isn't it.

[ProleNoMore]

10. So - One Could Conclude That You Stand For An Illegitimate War

Does that not make one a war-monger by definition?

[sandnsea]

20. Afghanistan is not an illegitimate war

in no way shape or form. It is a UN and NATO backed war. If Bush hadn't completely dropped the ball on it, they'd have helped rebuild Afghanistan and it could easily be a thriving country right now. Think how much was done in Europe in 8 years. That could have been Afghanistan.

[ProleNoMore]

23. I Guess One Can Define Anything To Suit One's Opinion - Others Have A Different Opinion

eom

[sandnsea]

28. No. The illegality of Iraq

is defined in direct contrast to the legality of Afghanistan. You have to respect the law on one to claim the illegality of the other. Otherwise you're not respect international law at all and just making it up as you go, just like Bush did.

[ProleNoMore]

36. Notice That One Disregards The Distinction Between Illegitimate And Illegal

eom

[sandnsea]

37. illegitimate:

2. not legitimate; not sanctioned by law or custom.
3. unlawful; illegal: an illegitimate action.

[ProleNoMore]

39. From Merriam-Webster - One So Loves The English language

Main Entry: il·le·git·i·mate
Pronunciation: \-ˈji-tə-mət\
Function: adjective
Date: 1536

1 : not recognized as lawful offspring; specifically : born of parents not married to each other
2 : not rightly deduced or inferred : illogical
3 : departing from the regular : erratic
4 a : not sanctioned by law : illegal b : not authorized by good usage c of a taxon : published but not in accordance with the rules of the relevant international code

[sandnsea]

42. Yes, 4

4 a : not sanctioned by law : illegal b : not authorized by good usage c of a taxon : published but not in accordance with the rules of the relevant international code

[ProleNoMore]

43. Cherry Picking Definitions I See - I Tire Of This Debate - The Original Intent Was Clear

I leave one to their delusions!

[JTFrog]

56. If I arose from the Dead to Debate on Halloween, I'd be tired too. n/t

[Deja Q]

24. +1

[cliffordu]

45. I stand behind the Prez, so I guess I'm a war monger.

so fucking what???


You won't do anything about it except call names.

[ProleNoMore]

62. When Was Expressing An Opinion Tantamount To Calling Names

It is my opinion that continuing in Afghanistan, as presently prosecuted, is akin to war mongering.

I believe it to be war mongering because I see no clear military threat or objective for continuing operations there.

[cliffordu]

64. I don't really care what you see.

Honest.

[ProleNoMore]

65. Ok - Thank You For Being Honest

eom

[paulsby]

48. yes, but it begs the question

it assumes that afghanistan IS an illegitimate war.

i don't think it is.

nor does obama.

[ProleNoMore]

61. So, One Has Heard Of Opinions, We Have A Difference Of Here

eom

[Cerridwen]

11. I stand with Malalai Joya.

Malalai Joya: The woman who will not be silenced

But she says: "Dust has been thrown into the eyes of the world by your governments. You have not been told the truth. The situation now is as catastrophic as it was under the Taliban for women. Your governments have replaced the fundamentalist rule of the Taliban with another fundamentalist regime of warlords. {That is} what your soldiers are dying for." Instead of being liberated, she is on the brink of being killed.

<snip>

"We are our sisters' keepers"

As soon as the Taliban retreated, they were replaced – by the warlords who had ruled Afghanistan immediately before. Joya says that, at this point, "I realised women's rights had been sold out completely... Most people in the West have been led to believe that the intolerance and brutality towards women in Afghanistan began with the Taliban regime. But this is a lie. Many of the worst atrocities were committed by the fundamentalist mujahedin during the civil war between 1992 and 1996. They introduced the laws oppressing women followed by the Taliban – and now they were marching back to power, backed by the United States. They immediately went back to their old habit of using rape to punish their enemies and reward their fighters."

The warlords "have ruled Afghanistan ever since," she adds. While a "showcase parliament has been created for the benefit of the US in Kabul", the real power "is with these fundamentalists who rule everywhere outside Kabul". As an example, she names the former governor of Herat, Ismail Khan. He set up his own "vice and virtue" squads which terrorised women and smashed up video and music cassettes. He had his own "private militias, private jails". The constitution of Afghanistan is irrelevant in these private fiefdoms.

<snip>

much more at link

[dflprincess]

26. Unfortunately, the U.S. does not

the administration announced in the last week or so that it was willing to "work with" the Taliban as long as it renounced terrorism. Apparently the abuse and enslavement of women is not considered terrorism and I object to my tax dollars continuing to go to that.

I really wish female military personal would start refusing to be sent there. Why should they be expected to help protect these abusers?

[Cerridwen]

27. I rather like the idea of female military personnel making common cause

with the Afghan women's rights movement. I wonder if they would? edit to add: I wonder if they have?

Yeah, I know. Our government doesn't much concern itself with the needs of women in the US if it interferes with its "manifest destiny." I see no reason for it to even blink at the needs of women elsewhere in the world.

[ShortnFiery]

84. The Afghani Women don't want anything to do with foreign occupiers ... women or men. eom

[Andronex]

52. Recently I saw this video

of young Afghan women students in western clothing in Kaboul, without veils outside in public! being interviewed about the soviet presence there, giving different points of views for and against. It should be remembered that the majority of university student at one time were women in Afganistan, as were those graduating to be doctors. But then America and the CIA started to massively support Ben Laden and what was to become Al Queda, so when I hear Americans using womens right as a justification for the war I just want to :puke:

[inna]

12. ku

[madokie]

13. I stand with the President because I think he will be doing everything he said he would

With me knowing full well that there is a lot going on that we don't know about. I trust his judgement and decision making and voted for him because of that.

[dflprincess]

30. During Vietnam the "the president knows more than we do" line was often used

In the end it turned out that the presidents (LBJ & Nixon) both knew for a fact what most of us had guessed - the war could not be won.

It's also a line used by Bushbots as a way to support Sonny-boy's invasions of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now.

[paulsby]

50. and ironically enough

the comparing every war you disagree with to vietnam is also OFTEN USED.

vietnam is not the defining war of all time (tm) such that all other wars are just new vietnams waiting to happen

[dflprincess]

66. Vietnam is a fine example of a quamire and an unwinnable situation

as the Soviets and the British learned. Though it appears that Britian, like the U.S., has trouble learning from past mistakes - either their own or others.

However, in this case, my point about Vietnam had more to do with the excuse being used for blind support of a policy "the president knows more". As I said, that wasn't an acceptable reason when Bush was president - I don't think it works any better for Obama.

[paulsby]

72. ah, this strawman again

please show me where i said that i supported the afghanistan war BECAUSE the president knows more, or any other such rubbish

i never said i supported it BECAUSE obama supported it. fwiw, i disagree with obama on all sorts of stuff (i am pro gay marriage for instance).

that the president supports the war does not affect my support or nonsupport

and i said NOTHING that would lead ot that conclusion

i supported the afghanistan war when BUSH was president.

i thought he did a bad job at it, but i supported the war itself

so, take yer strawman and discard it.

forthwith!

[dflprincess]

75. I never said you did

but there are people on this board who have changed their tune since Obama became president. (I sometimes think these same people would stand in awe if Obama bit the head of a bat while giving a national address).

When we first went into Afghanistan I thought it was something we had to do, though I can't say I supported it. It didn't take me too long to change my mind after paying more attention to history and the "need" for a pipeline across that country. And, as I said, I don't buy the "president knows more" line any more now that I did with Bush was president.

[paulsby]

79. i can respect that

i can't respect people who support or don't support a war based on whether they like the president. that's amoral, imo.

[G_j]

91. perhaps most notably, an occupation nt

[ShortnFiery]

85. Every time we go into another country with our military, tear assing around without understanding

their culture, you damn well bet it's *comparable* to VIETNAM. We said to each other in 1975 "Never Again" ... well, here we go again. :puke:

[ChicagoSuz219]

57. I agree 100% (more)

Knowing that the President is privy to information not available to ANYONE on this site; that he doesn't go off half-cocked & blindly follow one person's recommendation because he doesn't have a grip on the ramifications or understand other perspectives; that everything he does is informed & measured; that he won't spend one more second, one more dollar or send one more troop than he absolutely has to; that he really cares about each & every military person - and their families - and knows he's accountable to them & to us; that he's probably the smartest person in the room, yet has enough self-esteem to be able to ask questions; that he listens to everyone before making up his own mind, etc., etc.

I stand behind the President and trust that he will always act in the country's best interests.

[ShortnFiery]

86. Pure jingoistic bullshit! We've heard it all before ... But when will we ever learn.

It's all propaganda and you are buying it hook, line and sinker.

The ruling elites joke about how STUPID the American People are since we continuously LOVE and PROP-UP our beloved Military Industrial Complex.

Now that they've figured out that "the draft" can no longer work, we have FUNDED (the taxpayers) private armies.

FACT: There are more CONTRACTORS in Afghanistan now than there are military troops. They're enjoying all the best that OUR TAX DOLLARS can give. How does that make you feel? :grr: :puke:


http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/06/front2453824.0319444444.html
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[ChicagoSuz219]

90. I hope you're just venting in general...

...and not at me, in particular. My post doesn't warrant that kind of outburst.
I said years ago that if they'd cancel the contractor's contracts, the war (Iraq) would end the next day...
Having said that, I believe we have some unfinished business in Afghanistan & I stand by President Obama.

[superduperfarleft]

95. Brittany, is that you? n/t

[spiritual_gunfighter]

97. Thanks for the Britney Spears post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82py_wk5vE4

[MadHound]

14. Congratulations, you're now part of the problem,

Supporting an illegitimate, immoral, illegal war, all because that war is now being run by a Democratic president. For shame, you now support the killing, the death, the waste of it all.

[paulsby]

51. false

i supported the afghanistan was when bush was president too

why don't you try some READING COMPREHENSION

tell me where i said i supported it BECAUSE it was being run by a dem

i said i supported it, and obama supports it

i did NOT say i support BECAUSE obama supports it. considering that i supported it when bush was president, you fail the logic test

fail

[MadHound]

44. Congratulations then, you're still part of the problem

You are still supporting an illegal, immoral war, supporting the killing of innocents and the destruction of this country as well. So you supported it under Bush, well at least that makes you consistent. Gullible but consistent.

You want fail, look in the goddamn mirror. Better yet, go look a soldier, or the family of a dead soldier, or the family of a dead Afghani child and try to find something, anything but fail there.

This whole war, along with the ongoing one in Iraq is nothing but fail, and your cheerleading and support continues to mark you as being part of the problem. Yippee, you're fucking consistent, you supported Bush's bullshit war and now that it's Obama's you continue to support it. That goes beyond fail, far beyond it. As I tell all supporters of these illegal, immoral wars, if you support it so much, trot on down to your local recruiting office and sign up.

Congratulations, you're still part of the problem, the biggest fail going.

[paulsby]

53. congratulations

you can't even admit you made a false statement. when you acknowledge that, THEN i will address the rest.

it peeves me when basic manners can't be followed. you accused me falsely, i corrected you. the proper response is "my bad" or something to that effect

hth

[MadHound]

60. Wow, you're supporting an illegal, immoral war, and you're worried about fucking manners?

How much more out of the fucking loop can you be?

OK, just for you, my bad, I mispoke.

Now then, your turn to admit to our dead soldiers, our injured soldiers, their families, the dead and injured in Afghanistan and Pakistan, along with their families and both countries that it is your goddamn bad for supporting an illegitimate, immoral, illegal war. Can you do that for me? Can you admit that you're part of the problem, a warmongering asshole who got suckered by Bush and can't admit it, so you're continuing to be part of the problem.

Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick, you support the bloodshed of innocents, yet are worried about manners in an internet chatroom board. What a sad piece of work you are. Again, if you support these wars so much, go down to your local recruiting office and put your ass out on that same line where you mouth is.

[paulsby]

71. there are always innocents killed

in any war, justified or not

god knows a hell of a lot were killed during WWII that were entirely innocent.

i support the afghanistan war, as does our president, because the cause is just

[MadHound]

78. And what would that cause be?

Revenge for 9/11? If that is the case, then going after bin Laden et. al. is better done as a police action, not a full blown military commitment. By using a sledgehammer instead of a surgical knife, we've alienated and made enemies of many people that we could have used as friend, and caused chaos and violence that was unnecessary and a hindrance to our goal.

If we're there to do "nation building" or some such label, then that is a war of ideas that we're talking about, not one of bombs and bullets. Again, we're failing miserable in that area because we're making enemies of the people we should be making friends with. I would suggest that you read "The Ugly American" for an excellent example of this process.

So what is the cause? Those pipelines? That would make our war one of imperial aggression.

Do you embrace our illegally firing upon a sovereign country, Pakistan, without the legal or moral authority? Do you accept killing the innocents of that nations as "the cost of war"? If so, then I would say that your moral compass could use a good tune up.

Oh, one other thing, that whole "let's get Osama" thing. Well, it's pretty much irrelevant now since he's been dead for a number of years now. That's been confirmed by those in the know. But hey, don't let that fact get in the way.

[ProleNoMore]

63. Well Said MadHound

eom

[LuvNewcastle]

15. I'll be interested to hear the reasons

for continuing this war. I'd like to see us get out of the Middle East altogether, but the situation over there is very complex. This war could get very hot very soon and I don't think America is prepared for that.

[elocs]

16. "Could Afghanistan Become Obama’s Vietnam?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/weekinreview/23baker.html?_r=1

“The analogy of Lyndon Johnson suggests itself very profoundly,” said David M. Kennedy, the Stanford University historian. Mr. Obama, he said, must avoid letting Afghanistan shadow his presidency as Vietnam did Mr. Johnson’s. “He needs to worry about the outcome of that intervention and policy and how it could spill over into everything else he wants to accomplish.”

By several accounts, that risk weighs on Mr. Obama these days. Mr. Kennedy was among a group of historians who had dinner with Mr. Obama at the White House earlier this summer where the president expressed concern that Afghanistan could yet hijack his presidency. Although Mr. Kennedy said he could not discuss the off-the-record conversation, others in the room said Mr. Obama acknowledged the L.B.J. risk.

“He said he has a problem,” said one person who attended that dinner at the end of June, insisting on anonymity to share private discussions. “This is not just something he can turn his back on and walk away from. But it’s an issue he understands could be a danger to his administration.”

Another person there was Robert Caro, the L.B.J. biographer who was struck that Mr. Johnson made some of his most fateful decisions about Vietnam in the same dining room. “All I could think of when I was sitting there and this subject came up was the setting,” he said. “You had such an awareness of how things can go wrong.”

More at the link. An interesting read. How ever did that Vietnam thing end up anyways?

[flvegan]

17. Good luck with that.

[jonnyblitz]

18. war escalation will be his downfall . nt

[NYC_SKP]

21. I foresee mostly negative replies to your OP.

But I stand with you in standing with Barack Obama.

You, I, and he do not want this war to last.

And he, especially, understands the lessons of the past and will do everything he can to take this in a direction toward resolution.

:thumbsup:

[G_j]

22. why does

he, especially, understand the lessons of the past?

you mean like Vietnam?

[Deja Q]

25. As do I.

[paulsby]

55. as do i

i didn't expect a whole buncha people to jump onboard. my point was simple. i've seen metric assloads of threads criticizing obama on his afghanistan policy.

i happen to be one of those who supports his policy. to have at least one thread where the OP is PRO-afghanistan policy is a nice change o pace

[Oregone]

29. Are you too much of an intellectual juvenile to separate a man from a policy?

A war policy doesn't have to become a personal issue relating to you and your fantasy boyfriend

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

31. Riiiiighttt! You are such an adult by throwing out a personal assault; that's not juvenile.

:eyes:

Blech!!!

[Oregone]

33. I posed it as a question...

If you are indeed self-identifying as an "intellectual juvenile", it is of no effort of my own.

[flyarm]

32. Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,Uncle Sam needs your help again

"I FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN' TO DIE"



Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Afganistan
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Afganistan;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Gotta go out and get those Taliban —
The only good commie is the one who's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Afganistan;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Huh!
Well, come on Wall Street, don't move slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go.
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of the trade,
Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Afganistan.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Iran.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Afganistan.
Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
Send 'em off before it's too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.
And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Afganistan.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

get them out, get them home....nowwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!

seems i remember all these fucking excuses i see today by the cheerleaders, as i did in the 60's..

and i assure you the results will be the same!

And the blood will be on the cheerleaders hands..not mine!

how many black walls must we tolerate????????

You want this fucking war,.,.then get your ass off your computer and enlist!..other wise..stfu!

[nashville_brook]

34. oh so lonely.

[RetroLounge]

35. Enjoy your solitude...

:eyes:

RL

[paulsby]

54. i'd rather be alone

and be right, then be a lemming following the herd.

whether one or one billion agree with me, is irrelevant to the decision making process.

but i am happy to stand with a man like obama, and many others who support the war in afghanistan.

[G_j]

58. have you enlisted? nt

[paulsby]

70. ah yes, this old trope

if you support any war, and you haven't enlisted, then your support is suspect.

sorry, but we are using a volunteer fighting force. i am in my 40's and am happily employed as a police officer.

[G_j]

74. but you are committed to others dying, aren't you.

that's no strawman.

[paulsby]

80. i didn't say it was a strawman

i said it was an old trope.

try to keep up

do you support your local fire dept.? THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU APPLY?

do you support your local police? ""

do you support ? etc.

it's a silly argument. it's as silly as the race card. if the only people who can support a war, are the people who volunteer to serve in it, it gives you a nice easy out vs. actually discussing the issues.

it's an old trope.

but it's not a strawman

and actually, as best i can tell i used the word trope wrong.

my bad.

but it's definitely not a strawman.

[G_j]

88. as I said, war is all about killing

my local fire department doesn't stage attacks, or drop bombs.

I'm not avoiding the issue at all. That IS the issue. It's about killing people and dying.
Now, I know you may have reasons to think we can somehow support a corrupt government, in a country where no outside force has ever been successful militarily, and "win". But the bottom line is about killing, and IMO, anyone who vocalizes support of such actions, should be asked why they haven't enlisted. I was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam era of the draft, and have a thin skin about chicken hawks.

Obama has escalated militarily in Afghanistan, but, (a long shot) if he changes course, I will stand with him,
and will be quite proud of him!

[paulsby]

89. the issue that one can't be for a war

without volunteering is ridiculous and you know it.

calling me a chicken hawk is a laugh. have you ever been shot at? most people who go in the military will never face it.

i have.

ever had a convicted robber, gang up with three other suspects to try to kill you? i had that happent to me, while undercover.

ever had a bullet plow into the wall 3 ft from where you are standing, when a fuckstick gangbangin' assmunch takes a shot at you?

i have

ever been on a warrant service, where three of your fellow officers were shot?

i have

ever been cited for bravery for pulling people out of a burning building, and suffered smoke inhalation?

i have

so spare me the chicken hawk crap.

i don't NEED to give you my bonafides,but that kind of crap pisses me off.

the war needs to be discussed on its merits. and that includes by people who aren't in the military.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Just what we need. More "Smoke 'em out" and "Bring it on". Next, "Mission Accomplished"?

Different rhetoric but the same message.

[anonymous171]

40. I stand with the American people and their interests.

Which means that I do not support the government's imperial ambitions and want to see the empire dismantled right away.

[JanMichael]

41. I don't. nt.

[Vidar]

46. I don't.

[EFerrari]

49. Do you know what you're standing with?

He doesn't seem to, yet.

[mmonk]

59. I stand with history and the cautionary tale it tells modern day conquerors.

[Shagbark Hickory]

67. I support total withdrawal. Use remote control drone planes and bribe the taliban. Case closed.

[majamay]

68. I expect the war in Afghanistan to end in a few years

Obama has come up with a strategy based on counterinsurgency and with less emphasis in the not too effective troop buildup seen during the Bush years.

[MadHound]

69. What do you consider "a few years"?

Considering that Gates is predicting that troops will be in Iraq for another ten years, and administration estimates that we'll be in Afghanistan for ten to fifteen years, that certainly sounds more than "a few years" to me:shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

73. I support Obama on many things, but not with any policy that will keep us in Afghanistan.

The 2nd to last paragraph from your link:

"I remind everybody, the United States of America did not choose to fight a war in Afghanistan." - Obama is wrong. We chose to go to Afghanistan. I distinctly remember Rep. Barbara Lee (D - CA) try to stop the rush to war in Afghanistan in the Fall of 2001.

"... Al Qaeda and its allies have since killed thousands of people in many countries... That is the future that al Qaeda is offering to the people of Pakistan and Afghanistan -- a future without hope or opportunity; a future without justice or peace." - The so-called 'Al-Qaeda' are in numerous countries throughout the world, and many more groups will come and go, some of whom have been or will have been trained and armed by the CIA, the Pakistani ISI, or other governmental entities. Are we going to invade every country and set up 'democratic governments', train militaries, rebuild infrastructures?... forever? With what money and whose lives?

This is about empire, plain and simple. We have military bases all over the world guarding our energy resources, and I doubt Obama has the power or the will to shut them down.

Of one thing I am certain. The USA will never win a land war in Asia, especially in the geographic region known as the 'Country of Afghanistan."

If Obama chooses to stay in Afghanistan, many more American lives will be lost, more 'terrorist' groups will organize to fight us, and our national treasury will be depleted to the point where few if any social programs will materialize on our own shores in our lifetime.

In other words, we will lose the 'war', and Obama will be blamed. If he choses to leave, Obama will be blamed for losing the 'war' as well, but far fewer American lives will be lost, taxpayer dollars can be spent on domestic needs, and Americans will be more safe overall.

[Fumesucker]

76. How about the Powell Doctrine?

Personally I don't think all the criteria of the Powell doctrine are satisfied in Afghanistan, particularly #2, #3, #4, #5 and #6

I'll give you #1 and #7 but that still leaves a gaping hole..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine

The Powell Doctrine states that a list of questions all have to be answered affirmatively before military action is taken by the United States:

1. Is a vital national security interest threatened?
2. Do we have a clear attainable objective?
3. Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
4. Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
7. Is the action supported by the American people?
8. Do we have genuine broad international support?<1>

[tekisui]

94. You make an excellent point.

I have been mulling over an OP that illustrates that excuses and reasons given today to continue(and escalate) the war in Afghanistan are no different(and no more valid) than the reasons given to invade Iraq.

Like the march to war in Iraq, the arguments to stay in Afghanistan shift with the wind. Even down to the point of suggesting WMD getting into the hands of extremists. What boggle my mind is how blinded the apologists for this war are.

And, I would add, #7 of the Powell Doctrine is not longer met.

[alarimer]

77. I don't; it is complete bullshit

Graveyard of empires.

[Flaneur]

81. He has an Afghanistan policy? I think it's in tatters.

And he's desperately trying to figure out which is the least worst option.

Get out now, in my opinion.

[ShortnFiery]

82. I don't. Using our drones for Summary Executions before trial in Pakistan is ...

also State Sponsored Terrorism against sovereign nation(s).

Who does this harm the most? Not the Taliban or remnants of dwindling al Quaeda. It harms children, women and old men. That's who we are terrorizing - and it's vile.

Bring the troops OUT OF Afghanistan and Iraq NOW!!!

[tekisui]

92. I sure as hell do not stand with his Afghanistan policy.

It is based on a false premise that an occupation can be 'won', that there can be a 'victory'. I will only support a policy that begins with the end in mind, and that end being a full withdrawal. If we are not working on an exit plan, we are perpetuating and escalating an unnecessary, unwinnable war.

[RetroLounge]

93. Well, I guess the HUGE amount of recs proves your point

:rofl:

RL

[spiritual_gunfighter]

96. I don't n/t