Why can't Howard Dean say "No!" He is a whimp, that's why. He got rolled and now he's going to get

[John Q. Citizen]

us rolled.

The insurance companies want this bad. Big pharma wants this bad. Thre Blue Dogs need this way more than we do, they will be out of a job if a bill isn't passed. Why let them off the hook?

Why can't we say no deal?

[stray cat]

1. Who is we?

[John Q. Citizen]

2. The health care consumers of America. The people of this land.

The insurance companies win, we lose. Thanks for nothing Howard.


We warned him. We said, "If you start with the pO it's going to get whittled away to nothing."


Either that was his plan, or he's an idiot. Take your pick.

[Doremus]

8. What the HELL are you talking about?

"We warned him."
"Either that was his plan or he's an idiot."

Uh, HELLO?

Howard Dean has as much power to change/influence things as you do.


Jeebus H. Christ. If he's not being slimed by the DLC for winning an election, he's being lambasted about health care reform by some bozo on DU.



:mad: :mad: :mad:

[John Q. Citizen]

15. I'd say he has less power since he starts out demanding what he wants to end up with. Stupid

might be his problem I guess.

Poor Howard.

He thinks the PO in the bill is "like Medicare." Maybe that's why he's for passing it, eh?

[Doremus]

16. Well, then I wouldn't call him stupid. Nope.

He's brought us a helluva long way

- without being involved in any way
- without even being in the same room as anyone who is.


No sir, I would say we need a whole Congress full of Howard Deans, yes I would.

[anigbrowl]

82. Well, thanks heavens we have you to...um..what is it you do, exactly?

I mean, with such a grasp of strategy and tactics, you must be some veteran campaign manager or pro-public lobbyist or activist or suchlike, if not an elected representative yourself. Please direct me to your website so I can promote it to other people, since you're clearly way out in front of Howard Dean on this stuff.

[janx]

3. What is a whimp? n/t

[Oregone]

4. Dean

Better than being a liar. He tried a stint at that a bit ago and quit

[Kurovski]

59. A "whimp" is like a "whinsome whino."

Wohne asshumes. :hi:

[Laelth]

5. Spot on. I hope someone says "no."

Without the Kucinich Amendment, this bill is worse than nothing.

:dem:

-Laelth

[ipaint]

6. Because Karen said NO.

And what karen wants karen gets, even from Dean.



"Earlier today, Howard Dean proposed resolving the public option impasse by allowing all Americans -- regardless of age -- to purchase their health insurance from Medicare instead of being legally mandated to purchase insurance in the private sector.

Karen Ignani, the chief lobbyist for the health insurance industry, slammed Dean's proposal because, she says, Medicare "is a government-run program."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/17/768213/-Insurance-lobbyist-blasts-Deans-Medicare-option-compromise

This is the person who represents the companies we are mandating everyone to buy insurance from. AHIP, her organization, planted fake protesters in the teabag rallies all over the country to shout down pro reform citizens.
And we are handing these folks a mandate.

You can't make this stuff up.

[ipaint]

9. Karen also claims rescissions are "rare".

"Rescissions are rare, accounting for just 0.15% of individual policyholders' experiences in 2006, according to a survey from America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), a trade group of companies that cover 200 million Americans. About 18 million people have private, individual health insurance, the only kind subject to potential rescissions.

AHIP President Karen Ignagni said the group called for more-stringent rescission criteria and independent review panels in a December report. "We recognize the process needs to be very transparent and people need to have peace of mind that they will have an independent review."

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-your-health-insurance-be-revoked-when-you-need-it-most



And Karen has been busy for the last 3 years hammering out the details of the reform package with executives and lawmakers.


"Over the last three years, she has been steadily laying the groundwork for industry consensus by meeting monthly with influential executives. She says they thrashed out the positions they now support, like not charging sick people higher premiums, even as they disagreed over how far-reaching those changes should be.

“The industry right now is collectively pretty close to the same place — there is a lot of cohesion,” said George C. Halvorson, the chief executive of Kaiser Permanente, the nation’s largest nonprofit health plan.

Ms. Ignagni’s strategy also involved working closely with members of Congress, meeting privately with Senator Edward M. Kennedy’s staff, for example, to try to hammer out the underpinnings of any reform efforts. Unfailingly polite and painstakingly prepared by staying up late to read every page of the proposed legislation she will testify about the next day, she has worked hard to present the industry as supportive of change — as long as it doesn’t go too far."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/health/policy/05insure.html?pagewanted=2&hp


She's getting exactly what the industry wants. And not one politician will stand up and say enough.
Very soon we will more than likely be legally mandated to pay monthly extortion premiums to these bloodsuckers. And then we can kick in the taxpayer subsidies to cover advertising and profit.

[andym]

30. "She's getting exactly what the industry wants" NOT

Here are her thoughts on the House bill (Bluecross/shield also express themselves clearly):
"America's Health Insurance Plans CEO Karen Ignagni said the legislation's inclusion of a public option would have dire consequences, CQ HealthBeat reports. "A new government-run plan would bankrupt hospitals, dismantle employer coverage, exacerbate cost-shifting from Medicare and Medicaid, and ultimately increase the federal deficit," she said. The BlueCross and BlueShield Association released a statement saying that the public option "would jeopardize affordability and access to coverage for the 160 million people who receive their benefits through their employers today" (Norman, CQ HealthBeat, 10/29). Insurers also opposed new regulations the bill would impose upon them, such as forcing them to offer a minimum benefits package to anyone who applies for coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions and preventing insurers from varying premiums based on an enrollee's age, gender or health status (Young, The Hill, 10/29)."

http://www.californiahealthline.org/articles/2009/10/30/california-action-against-anthem.aspx

Now, I couldn't find any welcoming remarks about from Karen about the inclusion of the anti-trust exemption revocation. I did find this in a Reuters article:

"Insurers, already expected to take the biggest whack under any health reform measure, saw most of their worries realized with the House bill eliminating the industry's exemption to antitrust laws and targeting their profits.

The measure forces insurance companies to give customers rebates if less than 85 percent of enrollees' fees is spent on actual health care."
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUSTRE59S5A720091029

[ipaint]

32. The bill isn't final yet. Watch.

She is going to get exactly what she wants, maybe a minor setback or two but nothing that in any way threatens the stranglehold private insurers have on Americans. Loopholes go unnoticed in 2000+ pages. Most corporations in this country are above the law as are politicians.

This has gone exactly as predicted by people who wanted single payer on the table in order to both get a workable public option and to educate folks as to the goal for the needed improvements to that public option in the future.

You can't fight the insurance giants with a plastic toy gun. That is the type of public option now being negotiated away in the house. It's a joke. The disdain and arrogance shown the american people by both the ins. giants and their bought a paid for representatives and senators is appalling.

"The health sector is the year's top lobbying spender, pouring $396 million to lobbying federal lawmakers on health care reform since January -- an increase of six percent compared to the same period last year."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/30/25-billion-year-to-date-l_n_340632.html

People honestly think this amount of money is being spent for a bill that will threaten in anyway the ins. giants, pharma and for profit hospitals.

Blinded by hope.

[John Q. Citizen]

56. Checking the stock prices proves that thhis bill is a bonanza for the insurance industry. They

will suck up more money, and there will be less money for health care for people.

It's not rocket science.

[skipos]

64. Where were AET, HUM and all the others in the beginning of 08?

And how do you explain the price difference?
Have they been outperforming the Dow over the last year?
I'd like to hear your insight.

[derby378]

75. I don't recall seeing Karen's name on the November 2008 ballot

And yes, I am deeply disappointed in the House and Senate versions of the health insurance bill, but I don't think it's time to roll on our backs and pee on our bellies at Karen's command.

[napi21]

7. I listened to him. He said it wasn't the bill HE would have

proposed, but he could vote for either the H or the S bill. It's a good start. What makes that being a whimp? Would you rather be right and fight for what you want or get a bill that can actually pass? Read the bill! I've started reading it but have only gotten through 100 pgs. There are a lot of good things in that bill! I know you wanted single payer, but there's no way it could have ever passed out of even one committee!

[John Q. Citizen]

17. No, i wanted to start out demanding single payer and end up with a funcioning public option

that is pre-populated by 10s of millions and uses Medicare + 5% reimbursement rates.

I believe that passing a bad bill is a bad idea. And in total, that's a bad bill. the bad outweighs the good.

We can do better than that. The insurance companies are salivating over all that money and those 40 million new captive clients. If we hold out, we can do better, We can get a real public option that functions.

Dean wants to throw in the towel, that doesn't surprise me. I mean he's the guy who started out negotiations with where he says he wanted to end up? That's lame, and it's proved out to be lame. You want to follow lame? go for it.


It's a Republican Bill. It's a market based solution! It's the health care equivalent of the bush social security "reform." Remember that idea? Take our public monies and give it to wall street to invest and to run the program for us. Bush said it was better because it was "market based solution."

No thanks.

PS

Kucinich passed a single payer amendment out of committee. That's because he tried though, he didn't start out accepting defeat as his stratedgy, like Dean did.

[ipaint]

19. Another victory for Karen and AHIP

"...Translation: The "public option" Pelosi and her team have proposed a plan that would not make payments for care based on Medicare rates, as the Congressional Progressive Caucus and key Senate Democrats have proposed.

Rather, under the Pelosi plan, the rates be tied to those of the big insurance companies. That's a big, big victory for the insurance industry, as it will undermine the ability of the public option to compete -- and to create pressure for reduced costs.

Pelosi's plan also drops a number of provisions that had been advanced at the committee level to promote consideration of "Medicare for All" models and to allow states to experiment with single-payer plans."

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/10/29-5


Things are really pulling together for the top lobbyist and her pro-profit ins. clients.

And Karen used to be a democrat. Imagine that.

[napi21]

26. Do you know anyone who works inside the medical community?

I DO! A good friend of mine is the Dir. of finance for the largest hosp. system in Pgh. I'?ve talked to her about Medicare & Medicaid payments. They break even with Medicare most of the time, but lose money on every Medicaid patient they treat. It IS a non-profit org, so you don't need to start hyping on profits!

I asked her what in the hell is causing med. costs to increase so rapidly & so dramatically. Her response...TECHNOLOGY!

i KNOW, i SAID THE SAME THING...WHAT???

New med equipment is extremely expensive. $1.5 million for a CT machine. $2.5 million for an MRI machine. /because technology changes so quickly, you can't depreciate that equipment over 3-5 years because it's obsolete before then. She told me about a CT maching that they spent $1 million for and in 6 months it was obsolete...no doc wanted it around, and the mfg. wouldn't even take it for parts.

I honestly don't have any idea what the answer is. Nobody wants to tell their doc no when he recommends an MRI, or turn down some new thing that will help them.

Are the med equipment mfg's making too much of a profit? I have no idea.

Add all of that together with the small rural states who get reimbursed at a far lower rate for medicare & medicaid than where my friend works and you have real problems!

You tell me how you would fix it!

[ipaint]

33. Why don't we ask Canada, France, Taiwan, Australia, Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands

Japan, China, Austria, United Kingdom, Singapore, Israel, Ireland, Cuba, we can even ask Iraq.
17,000 physicians here thinks it's doable- http://www.pnhp.org/
There are plenty of educated people who would be more than willing to work on a solution. Hoping that industry shills, lobbyists and paid off politicians will do what is right is pretty stupid.

We aren't that unique. Taiwan studied all forms of universal care worldwide, cherry picked the best of all the plans and had a program implemented in 6 years.
We covered 93% of americans 65 and older within 1 year of implementing medicare. There are plenty of ways, proven plans, what we lack is will.

[napi21]

38. There's something else you're missing here. My son's new wife

is studying to be a Dr. in Romaina. She is engaged to be married to a Dr, there as well. When my son told me about this I said Oooh, that's great. He said "Mom, you have to understand, Dr.s here (he lives in Sicily) aren't rated in the high income bracket like they are in the US. They make a decent living, but nowhere close to what the Docs in the US make. One of the reasons for that is if while you're in med school and you maintain a B avg. you get your entire education paid for. They don't graduate with over $100,000 of debt that they would have to pay off.

It's very very difficu;t to compare other countries HC costs with those in the US and the edu. costs is sure one of them.

[ipaint]

46. So we fix it.

That's not difficult. Forgive the debt, if we were doing this right we would need more general practitioners asap. Put them to school for free with a commitment to working within and for the betterment of the healthcare plan.

There is nothing about our country that makes it impossible to solve the problems except lack of leadership and a learned helplessness among americans.

[napi21]

39. Hmmm...there's that lack of money thing! n/t

[ipaint]

47. What. n/t

[napi21]

58. I can't see any program like free tuition for drs. passing in the US!

After * years of 2 wars and unlimited spending on the US credit card, too many people are afraid to add anything to the already hugh debt. And of course God forbid we raise taxes! That's the big diff between the US and all countries in EU. They don't like higher taxes, but they recognize that they can't have the things they really want without them so they deal with them. Here, you'd think someone was threatening to slaughter your first born son if you talk about taxing to get the things most of the people really want.

[niyad]

55. your son's new wife is engaged to a dr in romania? did I read that correctly?

[SammyWinstonJack]

74. That's what I read, too.

:shrug:

[truedelphi]

84. Yeah and yeah and yeah. There is great technology - but hell's bells the insurers

See that the majority of the insured do not experience it.

I watched Kaiser Permanente take my $ 957 a month COBRA payments and stall and stall until the COBRA ran out. My case is not unique - at least I had gotten a diagnosis while insured. Too bad for me if the treatment recommended (bathing tumors in hot water solution) was not effective, while the real treatment I had to find out about by surfing the internets and then KP required that you attend an all day seminar, taking place only once a month in a distant location.

Please ask your friend why that is the case for so many people. Only people with top of the line BOUTIQUE insurance get treated properly. And often they need to surf the internets as well.

[pnwmom]

10. Why can't we say no deal? Because there are millions of Americans who need

health insurance reform and for whom this deal is better than none. And many of its provisions will take place immediately, providing relief to Americans on COBRA, and to those who have been denied coverage due to preexisting conditions.

The perfect isn't an option now. But, as Dean said, either of the bills will be "very, very good."

[ipaint]

11. I'm sure Karen agrees. n/t

[pnwmom]

13. I know millions of uninsurables agree with me. We need reform now. n/t

[ipaint]

14. As one of those uninsurables.

I agree we certainly need reform but I'm not so desperate that I can convince myself this scam is the solution.

Insurance companies are parasites and will never allow anything that cuts into their profits. Ever.
Now a whole new generation gets to be beaten to a pulp.

Doubling the size of the beast with mandates and subsidies doesn't bode well for citizens soon to be legally mandated to pay for crap ins.

I'll be insured but can't afford a doctor or co-pays or deductibles. No difference from my present situation. Except now the ins. giants own me.

[truedelphi]

83. And additionally - penalties of ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY SIX BILLION

Are expected by Congress to help defray the governments 1.1 trillion dollar cost! And those are just duriing the 2013 to 2019 time frame.

So if you have a hard time keeping up with the high premiums, you will end up being a scofflaw!

Neither Congress nor the President ever went on a mission to expose the exorbitantly over-inflated costs of our helath care.

Why is it that a ten minute consversation with a doctor in the ER room worth $ 3,000 in one metro area, but only $ 700 in a rural hospital? One must assume that a doctor is on the premises anyway. (For one thing, people in a rural area would pick up their pitchforks and poke around a but at Hospital Admins if they tried that in the boondocks)

Why was thsi household's COBRA payments $ 957 a month - when all KP did was stall the procedures my conditions required until COBRA ran out?

Obama has been too busy eating lunch with the various CEO's of health maintenance orgs to actually feel like critiquing them. And it is easy to extrapolate that Congress can't stomach offending them either.

[John Q. Citizen]

18. How many sick Americans have moved to Massachusetts? They have guaranteed issue.

They have subsidies for low income people. It's been up and running for a few years now.

None?

That should tell you something.


If you can't say "No deal" then you have no business in a negotiation. You might as well just walk in the door, lie down and bear your neck to the wolves.

We can do better than this, but we won't because all our negotiators started out begging the insurance companies to please please let them just have a public option and we will give you a trillion a decade plus millions of paying customers.

That's lame. Doesn't that seem lame to you, just a little bit?

[rpannier]

20. Weak analogy

How many sick Americans have moved to MA...

They would need the income to move.
They would need a job to move
They would need a house or apt to live in to move

[John Q. Citizen]

24. How many have moved from the state next door?

How many people used to travel to Canada for medicine?

Lots did.

Have the Dems fixed that? We have 60 votes in the Senate.

[pnwmom]

21. You think they can easily find jobs there? n/t

[Fearless]

28. Do you have actual facts to back up your statement?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Have you considered the possibility...

that instead of being a whiny little fuck, Dean chooses to agree with good reform?

Mebbe you should.

[John Q. Citizen]

23. I've considered a lot of possiblities. I've wondered about Daschle, I've wondered about

Baucus I've even wondered about AHIPs access to the white house.

I've factored in that fact that overwhelmingly the American people in poll after poll want a government run solution to the healthcare crisis.

And then I look at this Bill and i think, what's wrong here? Why did we end up with so little for so much money, time effort and we even elected a 60 seat Senate?

We started out our negotiations with the PO. That just lame. We said so last December we said so constantly all the way through, and we end up with a crap bill with no publc funcional option, just a fake one. Just like was predicted repeatedly by all the people who pointed out that beginning negotiation with where you want to end up is just lame, becuase you will be negotiating away your must have position.

And that's what happened. And Howard Dean is either too lame or to dishonest to even see that or take any responsibility for it.

It wasn't just Howard by the way. I'm just getting started and I'm starting with him.

SEIU, Move on, DFA, OFA, HCAN, and others all started out at exactly the same place with the exact same strategy. They all decided that this was the way it was going to be.

And they were wrong, they misled a whole lot of people about their intentions, and they blew our historic chance for some real change.

Instead we got the Republican idea of change, a market based solution based on Romney Care. Who we didn't vote for, because we didn't want Romney Care.

And i'm pissed. If you aren't then you haven't been paying attention

[madfloridian]

31. You are reminding me of my neighbor who wants creationism only taught in schools.

He wants public schools to embrace religion.

He despises anyone in his GOP party who does not think just like he does.

There is only one way or its the highway.

[John Q. Citizen]

50. Your poor neighbor. The Repos use that issue to raise money on and to rile people up

politically and to get them to cast thier votes for them. They don't even intend to solve the issue just to exploit the issue.

So you think Dean and the Dems are doing the same thing with the public option?

Using it to raise money and usung it to motivate a base while at the same time cynically never actually intending to pass it?

That makes sense. That's why they led with it, because they didn't want to pass it, they want to fund raise and organize around it.

If they pass it, there goes the donations and there goes that block of votes possibly to some other issue.

Makes sense. And it worked pretty good. There are actually people out there who think Dean is in favor of passing it while all the time he sees it as a cash cow, and a full time job.

Thanks MF. Your comment brought the situation into focus.

Does your neighbor realize that the Repos are using his issue just to extract money and votes?

Do you realize that Dean is using the PO just to extract money and votes? I bet he gets some of your money, eh?

[madfloridian]

53. That is a bitter, angry post.

There is not much common sense in it.

Backing off.

[John Q. Citizen]

57. You should at least consider the possiblity. Since normally, peoples first demand isn';t what

they expect to get.

So when Dean's first demand was a PO, it's pretty clear that he never really expected to get it. But he raised a lot of money on the issue and he signed up a lot of new members to his organization. So that worked out well, right?


Are you telling me you don't think the Republicans exploit issues like prayer in schools and anti-choice to raise money and motivate voters while knowing full well they aren't ever going to actually do anything about it? I guess I'm just "bitter and angry" enough to believe that happens a lot. Like to your neighbor.

I also think that's the best explanation for what we've seen from the HCAN people and their coalition members for the last 11 months or so. They all knew the PO was off the table from before the time they even began organizing on it, I'm pretty sure. Even if the rank and file didn't know that. Obama seemed to know it, fairly early, right? He said as much, sometimes.

Think about it. It raises a lot of money, signs up a lot of folks, and you have an issue to organize around for a long time. Watch in the future as DFA makes appeals for money and time so that next time, We can really get that PO (po ha! The first two letters of pony!) finally passed! They will be fund raising on it for candidates, 'Joe Blow supports the PO!" send money give time and vote for Joe. You watch and see, OK?

[Peregrine Took]

22. Very disappointed in Howard. Lately he's been taking the wrong turn on

things.

[On the Road]

25. Yes, Dear, Howard Dean is Nothing But a Wimp

:eyes:

[John Q. Citizen]

52. I don't think he wants to pass a public option. He just wants to raise money on it.

So I take back the wimp statement.

He's a con man. Not a wimp.

He's using the PO to raise money on and to motivate a block of voters. He doesn't actually want or intend to get a PO because that would mean a loss of an income issue for DFA and the loss of an issue to organize on.

Just like the Repos will never actually outlaw abortion, the Dems will never actually pass a PO. There's nothing in it for them to do so.

That makes sense, and it explains why things came down like they have.

[Hekate]

27. Dr. Yeeee-aaarrrgh a wimp? I think not. The man is, however, a realistic politician...

I trust his judgment -- it's why I worked for him when he ran for President. I also trust Barack Obama's judgment, although he has been a politician fewer years than the former Governor has, and being the actual POTUS he lives in a different political reality than either Dean or we do here at DU.

edited to add: My son, who is currently employed and has insurance, is uninsurable in the open market as it stands now. So am I, for that matter, but I only have 3 years left before I qualify for Medicare, so it's my son I worry about. Among the Top 14 provisions that take place immediately is coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. We need what's in the bill NOW, not in some fantasized perfect future.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8723453#8723453

Hekate

[unkachuck]

29. I'm with you, John Q....

....the Good Doctor dropped the ball big-time on this one....and like bloggers, politicians are only as good as their last 'post'.

[MrMickeysMom]

34. That's a good question, John Q...

I was very disappointed to see Howard Dean on Olberman's program the other night. This wasn't the same kind of reaction from the guy I campaigned so hard for. My husband and I were VERY disappointed.

Dean wouldn't give much credence to Kuchinich's ammendment or and barely acknowledged the goals thereof. Kuchinich is the only one who's stood up for the practical solution to health care reform. Now it's turned into shit as insurance reform. Fuck the insurance company and these lobbyists.

I hate the fucking lobbyists. Congress has to stop this game. All this will backfire int he 2012 elections if they start rolling over and pushing up their skirts. There's nothing in the present form of the bill that's worth having. THAT'S THE POINT... IT'S MEANT TO FAIL! This is so we can not spread the costs out and therefore it WILL fail. Then, we can all hear the echos, "See? ... It failed!"

I'm fed up.

[27inCali]

35. you know who needs this?

millions of fucking poor people who can't get decent medical help, but could if we passed this bill (shitty as it is).

those are the people I care about. If I personally have to pay out the ass for this bill -I don't care. If it's filled with corporate kick backs -I don't care. Just fucking save the innocent lives. That's the kind of decision a real Liberal makes: I don't care what it costs me, help those people over there in desperate straights.

are we just gonna let them die (122 a day) for the next 10 years while you and the purists chase the illusion of a perfectly progressive bill?

fuck that blind ideological bullshit.

[ipaint]

37. A shitty bill will be passed.

As a poor person I and 20 million+ others will be going on medicaid.

And the insurance companies will continue to make money by denying care. And people will still die because they can't afford care.
If anything us purists can at least identify the fatal flaws so hopefully next time around and there will be a next time because folks will be dying again in large numbers in the future, we will do it the way most other civilized countries do, a way that works and a way that will last more than a decade or so if that.

[John Q. Citizen]

54. Your argument makes no sense. High costs are why people go with out health care. Raising the cost

even higher (which this bill will do) will mean less health care for more people.

If it's less health care you want for people then this is the bill for you.

They are cutting benefits in Massachusetts. But you don't even know what happened in MA, you don't know that the argument you are making right now was the same one they used when they pushed through what is pretty much the same program.

What you don't know will hurt us.

If that makes you a real liberal it's no wonder the word has fallen onto such disrepute.

[Odin2005]

36. I see the purists have started turning on Dean.

A month ago people were cearing him on, now he's getting attacked. :eyes:

[Fading Captain]

40. Purists? LOfuckingL

Not wanting to be FORCED by LAW to BUY insurance from GREEDY CORPORATIONS makes me a purist?

[SammyWinstonJack]

77. +1

:applause:

[jonnyblitz]

43. you people who want lockstep agreement are the PURISTS. nt

[Odin2005]

44. I don't want "lock-step".

I just don't think screaming "OBAMA = BUSH" is "progressive"

[slipslidingaway]

41. I did not sleep very well that night in May ...

when I heard Dean state on the Ed Show that single was not off the table. I posted a poll shortly afterwards asking if people thought the public option was the same as single payer. After that appearance I've listened more closely to what Dean said, there was a constant confusion of terms and selling the Obama plan of a public option as "being like Medicare."

Then there was the speech at the AHIP Convention in June telling the insurance companies the public option would not be that bad for them and the push for longer data exclusivity period on biologics.

In sum all very disappointing.

:(

Howard Dean: Single-Payer is Not Off the Table
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DitCTKPL-xI

"...What Obama's plan essentially does is give you the choice of whether you want to be in a single-payer or private insurance plan..."


Interview on the Ed Show was during the time that SP advocates were trying to get a seat at the Senate round tables - Baucus had excluded them from participating. Ed asked Dean what he thought about SP being off the table, Dean said SP is Not off the table. Dean knows what the physicians were advocating for when they talk about SP, Medicare for All.

Why would he confuse the issue and lead people to believe that the public option is the same as SP or just like SP???

In addition he keeps referring to the public option as being like Medicare, but Medicare does not have to compete for the basic coverage with private insurance plans and started with millions of people in the plan which could then bargain for lower prices.


"Public option is like single payer. It gives consumers the choice..."


"AMY GOODMAN: Explain what is the public option, as it’s been presented.

HOWARD DEAN: For the average American, they should best think of it as Medicare..."


Links and more here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8606842&mesg_id=8608167

[slipslidingaway]

48. kick - for some reason the above post does not show up in my DU. n/t

[clear eye]

62. It doesn't show up on the buddies list as your latest journal entry

but it is in the journal if you click on your journal icon.

[slipslidingaway]

67. Thanks, I think it may have been during the time change ????

I was able to add it to my journal.

:hi:

[clear eye]

60. Thank you.

This sort of behavior is why people should think twice before cannonizing Dean.

[slipslidingaway]

68. Nobody should be! n/t

[donheld]

42. k & U

[HotJohnee]

45. DEAL

We can't say no deal because then there will be no health insurance. Do you want to give up everything after getting this far? I dont...

[PopSixSquish]

49. It Finally Happened. We've Reached the Event Horizon of DU

Now even Howard Dean, a fella who has worked tirelessly to help us get healthcare reform and who I can gurantee you won't give up after this bill is passed, has finally been thrown under the bus...

[Jennicut]

73. There are many politicians out there that don't say everything I believe in 100% of the time

and I don't throw them under the bus. It is utter nonsense. Oh well....Dean is thrown over the side of the ship. Who is next?
I want a better bill too. Guess what? Reality means we won't ever get a perfect bill. Waiting is not an option for me. I have a preexisting condition and would like a law passed now about it rather then 15, 20, 30 years from now when the bill is "better".

[John Q. Citizen]

79. you can get insurance in MA. They have what is in the house/senate bills. But you may

have to pay an arm and a leg, and you may have to settle for reduced coverage.

Just like with what's in the national bill. it's essentially Romney Care. It will result in a temporary increase in the number of insured, but it will also drive up prices, so it's not sustainable.

My guess is that some people are afraid of just changing and getting a system that will work well for the long run.

It's too bad. They can have affordable universal health care all over the world, but we are too fucking dumb to figure out how get it, and so we are willing to settle for crumbs. Ask Howard. He's willing to have us settle for crumbs.

if we were a free people, we could get a system that works. But we aren't free. We are slaves of the corporations and they own us. Ask Howard.

[Jennicut]

81. In the United States crumbs is what you get. Our country

was never built on "freedom for all". It was freedom for a few. Good ideals but they never transposed to everyone. Our entire history is like this and one President will not change that. Maybe I just am too cynical to believe the US will ever totally transform itself. It is kind of too late. Revolution? We are lucky people woke up and decided that a moderate, middle of the road Dem was even acceptable.

[Shagbark Hickory]

51. I once suggested he was a wimp and I never heard the end of it. Good luck to you.

[Vidar]

61. What utter fucking garbage!

[John Q. Citizen]

63. What would it take for Dean to say, "No deal?" in your humble opinion?

How bad would the bill have to be?

I mean we are looking at so-called public options that will most likely be run by insurance companies and that won't cover more than 10 million Americans at best.

So he was just joking about the public option? Using it to raise money on and to get more members of DFA, and it really doesn't matter to him since keeping insurance companies honest isn't important?

[madfloridian]

65. The single payer groups fought against the public option.

Do you blame them as well?

I know they wanted a better one, so did I. But DU is bad about blaming the wrong people.

[John Q. Citizen]

66. i fought for a real public option. I didn't buy into the fake ones though, like a lot of people did.

Which single payer groups are you talking about?

I know that Physicians for a National Health Plan praised the real public option as an excellent idea, second only to single payer as a means to cover everyone and to contain costs.

They weren't supportive of the fake public option the Dems put in the house and Senate Bills, that's true.


But that's because the fake public options wouldn't contain costs at all and also wouldn't be available to more than 10 million Americans at most according to the best estimates of the Congressional Budget Office.

Why would you want a public option pool that will be run by the private insurance companies and won't contain costs or keep private insurers honest? What would be the point?

Unless the point is to pretend that there is reform where there is none.

[Vidar]

71. Dean is following a similar tack to Obams's :get a bill passed with

some kind of public option & fix it later. Personally, I'd rather they hang 2/3 of the Republicans & all the Blue Dogs as traitors & then force it through. Though it's a gratifying fantasy, it would probably result in some sort of civil war & go downhill from there. So we have to be pragmatic. I want to trust Obama & I do trust Dean.

[John Q. Citizen]

72. Wouldn't the public feel more trustful if they fixed Medicare part D first? Instead of

passing more bad legislation with the never fulfilled hope of fixing it later?

[Vidar]

85. Good point. I never signed up for the god damned thing.

My beloved doctor selects my medications from the Walmart generic list.

[w4rma]

69. "No deal" is why we've been having this debate since at least President Truman. (nt)

[truedelphi]

70. I understand your feelings but I also

Wonder if there aren't better focuses of our outrage than Dean.

[John Q. Citizen]

78. Dean deserves scrutiny, especially when he's been selling smoke and mirrors for the

last 5 months.

Since last June, anybody paying attention knows that what Dean and others have referred to as the "Public Option" should instead be called the "Fake Public Option."

It has become clear that Dean, HCAN, SEIU, Move-on and a number of people who clearly know better have been scamming the public at large.

It's clear that the so-called Public Option was a bargaining chip from the start. Dean had no intention of actually getting a real one. That's why he's so quick to settle for no real public option in the House and Senate Bills.

It's all been a sham.

The plan from last November has been to put Romney Care into effect nationwide. That will result in a temporary rise in the number of insured, but it will also drive up costs, and it's clearly not sustainable.

And so the public will be forced to return to the Democrats and have to beg them to actually institute change.

They will come up with some other new short term market based solution fix that will include a way for them to keep getting corporate contributions, and the cycle will begin again.

It's bullshit. Dean is bullshit. And the faster we wake up to that fact, the quicker he will straighten up and fly right. Or he won't. Either way it's in the country's best interest to quit pretending Dean is liberal. He's not. He's always been a center right politician, and he sold out his one truly redeeming attribute, that is his reputation for being a straight shooter. He wasn't being straight with us on this health care deal, and we shouldn't pretend he was.

America, by and large, has come to the conclusion that we need a government run health care solution. That would mean, to most people, a single payer system similar to Canada or to a European style system.

Our leaders are still living in the past and are trying to thwart any real fundamental change. We just won a huge election, we had a bunch of people ready and willing to get out and fight for real change and all Dean and Obama and the Dem leadership have done is to find ways to dissipate and distract the energy and the desire of the public for real change. They have been very effective at killing off the chance for real change.

And I'm calling them out on it. They deserve to be called out on it.

[Romulox]

76. I've never trusted Howard Dean; he's "ex" DLC. nt

[dionysus]

80. well, you sure showed howard!!11!!!11