Look, I know its a bad thing to hand out antibiotics like candy - but what about pain killers?

[Taverner]

For folks who are sick?

"Oh no - we can't give you those - you might feel better"

WTF?

If I were a doc, I'd be handing Vicodin out to anyone with Swine Flu who asked for it.

Yeah yeah yeah, addictive. So are alcohol, tobacco and gambling.

So stop with the "Don't worry" and "There's nothing I can do" and how about a scrip for Dilaudids?

What? You're afraid I might like them too much?

[slackmaster]

1. That would be nice, but laws and regulations strictly limit what opiates can be used for

Discomfort from the flu isn't an FDA-approved use.

If I were a doc, I'd be handing Vicodin out to anyone with Swine Flu who asked for it.

Your practice would be beseiged with drug-seeking addicts once the word got out, and you'd lose your license.

[Taverner]

2. I know, and its sad that our society punishes anyone looking for pain relief

Want to puke your guts out? Ipecac is OTC even though you can seriously hurt yourself with that stuff


What it is is the Protestant Work Ethic gone awry. Pain is seen by some dumbasses as good for society, where as pleasure must be meted out, regulated and severely curtailed.

[supernova]

3. It's not the MDs who work in pain mgmt

it's the DEA that gets after them for proscribing what the DEA deems as too large quantities of opiates and other strong pain killers.

People who experience chronic pain often have to take doses that would put down most of the rest of us.

So docs walk a fine like between helping their patients and not calling attention to themselves from the DEA.

[Taverner]

5. I know - the DEA is the most worthless agency in our government

Really - we need to DESTROY them if we ever plan on going anywhere as a society

[uppityperson]

4. However, there isn't a black market for ipecac

Trouble with opiates is they are not just used for pain control. We had a doc here, known as an easy source for opiates and whatever else you wanted. Simply call him, beg and he'd order what you asked for. He ended up leaving and stopping his practice right before getting stopped.

[Taverner]

6. What I've always wondered is why there isn't a "Grow your own" movement for Opium

Its easy to grow, easy to extract and easy to take

And no DEA interference (that is, unless you have looky loos for neighbors)

[uppityperson]

7. Maybe because it is so illegal and more obvious than pot?

I knew people who used to, not sure if they are even still around any more.

[slackmaster]

9. It's illegal to cultivate opium but not to have it growing in your garden

Letting volunteer or naturalized plants grow and enjoying the flowers is perfectly legal. Just don't cultivate it. It's been growing semi-wild in parts of San Diego for centuries. I first spotted it (i.e. first became aware of it) in Old Town next to the cemetary.

[uppityperson]

15. Legality depends on state/community, but you are right, don't cultivate them

I first found out about them when a Master Gardeners group (part of coop extension) sold some "bread basket" or bread something poppies. They are really nice big red flowers.

From what I've read, the more opiumish a poppy is, the more likely it will be listed as a "weed" and you aren't supposed to cultivate it. Nice flowers though.

[slackmaster]

25. "Bread seed poppies"

Which can be literally true.

The poppy seeds you can buy in any supermarket and those that you get on bagels, etc. are usually those of the Dutch Blue variety of Papaver somniferum. Those produce large numbers of relatively small flowers and small pods, but any opium poppy seeds are suitable for human consumption. The big white-flowered Chinese ones like the one I posted a pic of here, produce off-white seeds that are a little larger than the Dutch Blue seeds.

Growing them for your baking needs is probably legal in most places in the USA. So is growing poppies for the purpose of producing dried seed capsules for use as floral supplies. (They're often sold decorated with tacky silver or gold paint.)

[mitchum]

31. Absolutely...it becomes illegal the moment one slashes the flower in...

order to make that magic resin flow.

[slackmaster]

8. There is, but the first rule of the GYOO movement is...

...We do not talk about the GYOO movement.

The flowers are beautiful.

[piratefish08]

17. I've heard that Kratom is a good legal substitute for opiate effects.....

It's very easy to find information and sources on The Google, so I've heard.

[RedCappedBandit]

44. There is a huge market for poppy pods

People make tea with them, and feel good

[Tutankhamun]

20. I chugged a whole bottle of ipecac in college.

My plan was to go into the campus health center and throw up in front of them. Then I could get a note from the Dr. saying I was sick and take it to the professor whose final I wasn't ready for yet.

Much to my chagrin and dismay, I didn't puke. Nothing happened whatsoever, but I faked being sick well enough anyway that I got the note. I got to take the final a week later, but I still choked and got a "C" in the class.

Striving for academic excellence.

[PVnRT]

10. I'm sure the pharmaceutical companies would LOVE to get you hooked on painkillers

More money for them, after all.

[slackmaster]

12. They're cheap and easy to manufacture, and generics keep prices low

The big pharma companies make their big money from patented, trendy drugs like Lipitor and Viagra.

[PVnRT]

18. So, as long as its the generic companies making money, it's OK?

Very well, then.

[slackmaster]

26. I don't care, I usually take generic ibuprofen when I have body pain

:hi:

[dmallind]

56. Companies need profits to keep producing products

Would you prefer we go back to subsistence farming instead and have no pain medication at all? Very well, then.

[Johonny]

35. yeah I agree

The control of the most addictive medicines are for your protection and it is generally smart to take them with your doctor and pharmacists monitoring.

[Taverner]

37. Alchohol is pretty addictive. So is Nicotine.

We are so capricious about what is a "good" drug and what is a "Bad" drug

[Lars39]

11. Opiates depress respiratory function.

If you're sick with the crud that's settled in your lungs, you would want to avoid them if you could.

[slackmaster]

14. But a little codeine works wonders on a dry, non-productive cough

It's much better (for me) than any OTC cough medication. Destromethorphan makes me hallucinate. Codeine makes it possible for me to sleep when I have a bad cough.

[DJ13]

13. Ive suffered from a condition called RSD for the last 11 years after an accident

Its a very painful secondary nervous system condition.

After 3 years on Vicodin, and not feeling any less pain while taking it (but being in a constant bad mood), my fight over obtaining effective pain meds became such a hassle I quit seeing doctors 8 years ago.

On the east coast medical pain centers treat RSD with Oxycontin, but here in California where I live any doctor who would prescribe it for any length of time would be threatened with having their license reviewed.

So I just live with the pain, but at least Im not in a permanent bad mood.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

61. RSD is so hard to diagnose, and because the symptoms ebb and grow,

some docs miss the diagnosis. Even worse, the most minor of injuries can set it off.

Luckily, some pain specialists can and do confirm the diagnosis, and try injections and nerve blocks, for some relief. Behavior modification also helps, with avoidance of temperature extremes and intensive activity of the limb in question.

What is stranger about RSD is that the other, uninjured limb ALSO begins to have the symptoms.

Let me guess. Chances are you are female, in your 50s -60s, were in good health before the accident, and people thought you were nuts because of your continuing complaints of pain.

[Freddie Stubbs]

16. Perhaps that's how Dr. Conrad Murray started out

[Posteritatis]

19. Your taking painkillers unnecessarily doesn't make it more likely that *I* will die from infection

Do I take issue with using them reflexively for anything - to say nothing of recreationally? Yes, I do. I don't consider them nearing the level of existential threat that antibiotics in everything does, though.

[Ganja Ninja]

21. The way pain drugs are dispensed in this country is a crime.

Anybody that truly needs them and can get a prescription on a regular basis is put through a ringer and treated like a drug addict. It's bad enough their in chronic pain or even dying. They don't need to be hassled by the government too.

[juno jones]

22. And just think.

Codiene is legal in Canada, in the small amounts that would help someone sick from flu, menstrual cramps, acute pain, etc.

But here-we can't have nice things. We're sinful and bad and undeserving. It's all for our own good. Every moment of your time is ours, stop lallygagging and feeling pleasurable there you non-producing superfluous peon.

But, but, you might get addicted from 20 codiene pills precribed to help the cough or aching. :scared: That myths right up there with taking coka-cola and aspirin to get high.

[Echo In Light]

23. In sicko America? No way, Jose. Upholding illusory, pretend "morals" trumps offering aid & comfort

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I especially like how terminally ill people in pain "might get addicted".

Fuck a duck, the last thing I would want in this country is to be stuck with something horrible like bone cancer and have a Dr. worried about the DEA looking over his shoulder.

It's this stupid puritan streak that fucks up so many things.

[slackmaster]

27. I think the reasoning is that they'll go to Hell if they die as addicts

Or something equally stupid.

[Echo In Light]

28. Oh yes, because those stridently upholding those aims/laws REALLY "care" about the less fortunate

[Warren DeMontague]

42. The basis for all this shit is that our bodies belong to "God" and The State

and expressly NOT us.

[supernova]

29. LOL. I agree with you

and if I hadn't watched my mom die from breast cancer, I wouldn't have believed the hoops med personnel who deal with the dying have to go through just to make their patients comfortable until the end.

My thinking at the time was, my mom will be dying in the next 6 months (the diagnosis that gets you into hospice care). Who the fuck cares if she gets addicted?!?

[Taverner]

30. When my Aunt died earlier this year, they came in to give her Morphine

The idea was to lessen the pain of being taken off the life support machine

JUST to get the Morphine the Doctor had to go through incredible hoops. The Morphine had to be delivered by special personnel, and they had to stay and watch the stuff being administered.

WTF is wrong with our country?

[TwilightGardener]

39. I've never heard of a doctor having trouble prescribing morphine

for a patient who needs it, or special personnel administering it. Morphine is in very common use in hospitals, it's one of the most-used IV narcotics for post-op and trauma patients, and regular old nurses administer it. I must have given out a bazillion mgs of morphine, it is usually written as a "as needed for pain relief" order. Sorry about your aunt--I imagine there must have been some unique circumstances in her case.

[Taverner]

64. Maybe I read it wrong...

But it seemed as if the Morphine was doled out very controlled...as if one had to let the higher ups know...

[pipi_k]

46. wow, that's just so different from the experience we had here

when my MIL was in hospice.

We only had to tell the hospice nurses that we were low on morphine and they would bring more.

They told us to give xx amount every xx hours for pain, but don't be afraid to give more if necessary.

When we ran low we told the nurses and they brought more. I always documented how much I gave and how often, but nobody checked.

After my MIL died, they did make sure to flush the unused drugs (all of them) down the toilet while a family member witnessed the ceremony. I suppose if we had wanted to, we could have saved some out for ourselves, but we didn't. It all got flushed away (there must have been some pretty happy septic tank critters for a while).

They were incredibly trusting with some real scary drugs....

[TwilightGardener]

48. They wouldn't have let you have any--those nurses are responsible

for ensuring that narcotics are properly "wasted", with another RN as witness. They will be held accountable for every single milligram that's missing or wasn't recorded as administered. Those nurses definitely documented every dose, even if you didn't see them do it. Narcotics diversion is a problem among health care workers. The big challenge in administering narcotics to someone who is dying or being taken off life support is in making sure the patient is comfortable, but not hastening death by decreasing the respiratory drive too much.

[quiller4]

54. I don't know what part of the country you are in. Here it is not a problem

for patients to have morphine drips or patches at home while they are in a home hospice program.

[mitchum]

32. I have always thought that is the height of absurdity...

and I agree with you that is a result of the stupid puritan streak- "You need to suffer like Jesus!"

[Mariana]

33. I think they're more concerned about a tolerance developing.

Start giving them the real heavy painkillers too early, and they may not be as effective later on. The tolerance can begin to develop in a matter of a few weeks by my own experience with narcotic painkillers. If you're dying of cancer and your pain meds quit working, it would really suck, to say the least.

[Taverner]

38. You'd be surprised at how many addicts do the Dilaudid/Heroin thing

From one to the other, and then to the other, to keep the opiates hitting the right receptors

So it is possible to stay pain free forever

[Warren DeMontague]

40. If it were me who was the patient, I'd err on the side of more pain meds.

And like I said, I think too often it is the Dr. being afraid of the DEA that leads to sick pain patients being under-prescribed.

[woo me with science]

52. My very worst memory of the death of my father from cancer

was sitting near him with a morphine pump that the nurses had programmed to give a limited dose at regular intervals. I could push the button to give an extra dose, but the pump would overrule me if I tried to give it too soon.

I felt like Mengele, controlled by that damned timer while my Dad was suffering and barely able to ask for more.

My mother, God bless her, finally fought hard enough to obtain a bottle of liquid morphine, which she gave with a dropper every time my Dad signaled a need.

He was dying. It was unnecessary and cruel. I didn't understand the restriction then, and I still don't.

[michaelvincent]

34. This may give you something to think about

My son year old son broke his leg skateboarding a couple of years ago. They gave him Vicodin. Apparently, he liked it because he got addicted to it and his father and I had to put him into rehab.

[Taverner]

36. Yes its addictive. So are lots of things.

Should it be illegal? Well start by telling me how making it illegal is going to make anything better?

[Warren DeMontague]

41. And what's your alternative? Not give pain meds to people with broken limbs?

I don't get it.

[TwilightGardener]

47. I think the poster was pointing out that even in acute injuries

where strong narcotics are indicated for a short period of time, it's addictive to some. So why risk it (not to mention side effects and risk of respiratory depression) for minor ailments, as the OP suggests?

[Warren DeMontague]

49. You think a broken leg is a "minor ailment"?

I dislocated an elbow, once, and fuckin' A I needed vicodin for that pain.

Alcohol is addictive to some, too. But prohibition didn't work. Personally, I'd prefer we "risk" some people getting addicted than we "risk" some people being under-treated for severe pain.

[TwilightGardener]

60. Um, no, I said it was an acute injury that calls for narcotic pain relief.

The person who STARTED this thread (the OP) said Vicodin should be prescribed for minor complaints like aching from the flu. That's what I disagree with.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Gotcha.

Thanks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Why would I need or want a strong, addictive pain killer for the flu?

[TwilightGardener]

45. What responsible doctor would even prescribe it for minor aches and pains?

Answer: none.

[Codeine]

50. It's the freakin' flu.

Get real. We don't need chemical relief from every minor discomfort in life.

[PeaceNikki]

57. Yeah, this is my opinion, too.

What the fuck?

[Canuckistanian]

51. Are you mental?

You're advocating MORE addictive painkillers? Vicodin for Swine Flu? How is that going to help with severe respiratory problems?

The problem with H1N1 is that it DESTROYS lung tissue in people who have no immunity. How is a painkiller supposed to help?

And of course, you IGNORE the MAJOR problem of SEVERE addiction. This isn't about "liking them too much". It's about spending your every waking hour looking for the next days' supply.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. Mental? and you carry a pretense of being medical?

If people are in pain, treating the pain should be job one.

[quiller4]

53. The last thing you want to do if you have a virus that attacks your

respritory system is take an opiate of any kind. Painkillers can quickly turn mild chest congestion into pneumonia. You might feel better for a short time but your condition could worsen.

The first rule of medicine is do no harm. Administering narcotic painkillers to a patient to ease flu pain could be deadly.

[JCMach1]

55. After my experience yesterday... keep them prescription

The strong analgesics I was taking post my kidney stone procedures caused the most massive dizziness you could ever imagine... Like taking a step into 0gravity.

I ended up in the clinic on IV for most of the day.

Even today, I am still a bit fuzzy with dizziness, but I am off the analgesics.

[Odin2005]

59. The "War on Drugs" is so great, isn't it? *SARCASM*

Puritanical BS.

[uppityperson]

63. Here is an article telling why (link to DU topic from today, serious epidemic in KY)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6881693&mesg_id=6881693

[ismnotwasm]

65. Narcotics

Aren't the "pain killer" of choice when dealing with respiratory illness. Simple acetaminophen, or ibuprofen are incredibly underrated and are effective when taken properly, although I can see limited use for vicodin. Dilaudid? Hell no--the risks are greater than the benefits when dealing with the flu, unless there is an underlying condition that causes pain, and/or current narcotic use.

Start taking narcotics 'like candy' and you can end up with a bowel obstruction. Why do people think just because certain drugs have a euphoric effect and a littl street cred that it automatically makes them benign?