Hey, Congress!!! I don’t want to “shop” for health insurance in any kind of “market”!

[eridani]

I want to pay a tax to support a trust fund which pays for care when and if I need it, just like I pay my property tax to support the fire department. In the event of fire, they send a truck out. Just the truck and people with the training required to put out the fire. No more or no less than what I would need in that circumstance. No personal responsibility questionnaires to prove that I’ve taught my kids not to play with matches, that I have my wiring up to code, that I don’t store oily rags in the basement and am truly eligible for and deserving of assistance. And especially no tripling of my property tax just for using the service. There is not one single logical reason why a heart attack should not be dealt with (and paid for) like putting out a house fire. The cheapest and most efficient way to pay for health care is to pay for it like we pay for any other public good, like schools, roads, libraries, fire and police protection, or any other part of our society’s infrastructure.

[The_Commonist]

1. Very well said...

Put into terms anyone can understand.

[annabanana]

2. It sounds so obvious, doesn't it?

Civilization is hard, barbarity is easy (and cheap).

[madrchsod]

3. shop? walmart or target?

in illinois most of the insurance is controlled by two companies.

that`s some choice

[blindpig]

4. That's a slippery slope....

We must pretend that nothing beats the 'free market', despite the reality in front of our faces. Ignore the suffering and death, ignore the financial catastrophes that people face every day and the de facto servitude of those whose employers do provide. Accept that the dog's breakfast that will be presented to us is hardly better than what we got now.

The net result will be an indictment of not only our legislative process but of the ruling values of our capitalist society.

k&r

[eridani]

36. Markets are a perfectly fine way of allocating discretionary income

But they only work for things people want more of, like books or iPods or appliances. Nobody wants more heart attacks or house fires.

[blindpig]

57. Illusion

Is it what people want or is it what the capitalists provide because they can make a good profit? Demand is very much a created thing in capitalist society, who ever wanted a 'pet rock'? We are besieged by advertising 24/7, most of it bearing little actual information about the product. It is blatantly dishonest and serves the producer not the user. It fuels a consumerism which is consuming the world and the capitalists have no interest in arresting that, it is their life blood.

[eridani]

60. How do you create a "demand" for more heart attacks? Or house fires?

I was not trying to make a point about consumerism--just that market goods and public goods are inherently different.

[madokie]

5. I agree with that

[joeycola]

6. well said. I think I will steal the OP.

[eridani]

37. Yes. Send it to your congresscritters, include it in LTEs

I don't care about credit--just want to spread the memes.

[tmyers09]

7. Agreed, however there would assuredly be a lot of backlash.

I think we can all agree that a Single Payer system, one in which the government takes care of any and all medical bills would be ideal. However, due to the deep control that these companies have over the government, it may not be possible to abolish these companies altogether as of now. Hopefully down the line, but in the meantime, here is what I would do for reform.

1) Lower Medicare's age eligibility to 50.

2) Further open up requirements for Medicaid.

3) For everybody else, create a strong, true public option. One in which you pay a relatively small amount to get into, and is either run directly by the government, or by a "private" company, but one with no profit motive.

4) For everybody who doesn't want "government-run insurance", institute very strict restrictions on the private sector by doing any or all of the following:

A) Open up state borders so that any person in any state can buy any plan they so choose.

B) Have caps on how much a company can charge for premiums.

C) Ban the dropping of people with preexisting conditions, and the denying of care for any reason.

5) For the aforementioned government plans, raise the reimbursement rates, so there is no reason that doctors wouldn't treat patients with these programs due to pay.

[eridani]

38. Gradually opening Medicare should do the trick by itself

If we are going to have private insurance at all, it should be strictly regulated like a public utility.

[bvar22]

8. Centrist Democrats: "Sorry. No can do."

"That would interfere with the profits of the Health Insurance Industry."

[Jkid]

45. interfere...profits

Any politician that says that right in my face or any other kind of apologetic excuse will ensure that their current term will be their last.

FUCK THEIR PROFITS

[Nikki Stone1]

9. A-fucking-men!!!

K & R and THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!

[autorank]

10. k*r Here's why - outstanding post

Overhead for insurance company "market" and shopping.

Overhead to insurance (approx. varying figures but this is close)
5-10% - your company pays for costs (54% of workers) but has insurance company administer the program.
15-20% - your company insures you through some group plan where insurance pays
30%-40% - you buy as a single unit from an insurance company
<5% - Medicare overhead

So anything above 5% is a WASTE. Insurance companies add no value, none. Single payer is the only rational choice.

[bertman]

11. We just did some health insurance shopping. Every year our small company (twelve

people) shops for our health insurance that our employees (and owners) can buy into.

In '08, our carrier told us our premiums would be increasing by FORTY-TWO PERCENT. Yes 42%. So, we said, Adios, we'll be going with someone else. The next day we got a phone call informing us that there had been a "clerical error" and that our premiums would ONLY be going up by 18%. After SHOPPING AROUND for a week we went with our original carrier and their 18% increase.

This year we SHOPPED AGAIN. We ended up sticking with our carrier because their policy costs only escalated by 12%.

So, even after shopping around for insurance, we have seen our premiums INCREASE 30% IN TWO YEARS.

This is criminal. Our representatives and senators are bought and sold by the insurance industry and pharmaceutical industry.

[harmonicon]

21. not to make you depressed, but....

18% one year plus 12% the next year is actually an increase of over 32% in two years.

[bertman]

27. Now you see why I didn't become a mathematician. That is depressing, harmonicon.

But I'll survive. Unlike a lot of folks who are less fortunate than I.

[harmonicon]

48. yeah, I suck at math.... had to use a calculator

I'm glad that you'll get by - that kind of increase would crush a lot of businesses and individuals.

[PSzymeczek]

33. The Hubster changed jobs.

The owner used insurance for me as a lure. Now he will not follow through, or it will be prohibitively expensive, just like the company in SC. I didn't want him to change. I knew it was going to be "Use and abuse".

[slipslidingaway]

35. That must be because of the "valuable service" they provide. :( n/t

[Vinca]

12. Amen.

[Ruby the Liberal]

13. I'm with you. Small businesses are getting hammered right now

Obama wants to support small business and mom-n-pop? Give us single payer.

[JimWis]

14. K&R - well said.

[glinda]

15. I think my vote was just unrecommended.

[pleah]

16. K&R

[maryf]

17. Fantastic Post!!

So simple and logical. Huge K&R...

[FiveGoodMen]

18. Hear, hear!

:thumbsup:

[bobbolink]

19. You've just written an excellent LTTE! Let us know what paper to look for it in!

You could even end it right after "support the fire department", and it would be excellent, and get the point across very well.

Come to think of it.... this would also make a GREAT half-page ad!

Can we take up a collection to make that happen???!!!

[eridani]

39. I'll send it the the Seattle Times

If you want, you can steal it and send it anywhere else you like.

[bobbolink]

58. Great! I hope they publish it!

:thumbsup:

[handmade34]

20. so well said

my sentiments exactly

[bc3000]

22. My thoughts exactly

Some kind of mandate is just going to get me into trouble with the law when I can't afford to pay it. I already have the IRS on my ass about taxes I can't afford to pay. I don't need to add another tax to that.

[FiveGoodMen]

23. That whole mandate thing is like a very, VERY bad joke, isn't it?

The first time I heard mention of such a thing I was sure it was from The Onion.

It's clear intent is to make sure that no one's pocket goes unpicked by the insurance mafia.

Screaming death to all who support that.

[leftstreet]

24. K&R

[demigoddess]

25. single payer is the only way to go. businesses will always find a way to rip off

the customer. Just like the banks did and do every day.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. My sentiments exactly.

[Revlon10]

28. It must be single payer

It must be single payer, then the incentive will be to keep us healthy, the same way when your mom makes you change from your school clothing to your play clothing and wont let you run around with white socks, because she knows that she has to pay for them and wash those socks to keep them white. Think about it, work environments will be more safe, foods won't be so processed, and the healthier, we are the less money we will cost the government. Schools will focus on health and exercise, hopefully taking soda machines out of schools and stop pumping drugs into our farm animals. It will be patriotic to be healthy and keep out food healthy.

[Revlon10]

29. Single Payer A MUST

They pump all kinds of crap into our foods, and if you get sick, you have to pay,
I usually buy organic half and half for my coffee and one day I noticed this white film on the bottom of the cup,
more like a white Chalk, I read the back of the milk, (half and half) it had 10 to 15 ingredients, next trip to the market I was reading the back of the milk
and they are not all the same to my shock.
They don't care because when people turn up sick, they make more money.
This Government corruption needs to stop, we need regulation and reform.

[inna]

30. ABSOLUTELY!!

Meanwhile, it's glaringly obvious that the sad, bad, cruel joke of a health care DEform that is emerging, starts looking as nothing short of a betrayal.

[slipslidingaway]

31. Agreed - 65% want a universal health care system for everyone...

that was in Dec 2007.

What happened???

“The United States should adopt a universal health insurance program in which everyone is covered under a program like Medicare that is run by the government and financed by taxpayers.”

Links to poll here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6847370&mesg_id=6851408

[inna]

32. +1,000,000. It's time to join the civilized world, dang it!!

Again - we are the only industrialized country in the world that does not guarantee health care to all of its citizens.


:grr:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. This should be so obvious, and it would be if our

government and media weren't corrupt.

[WeCanWorkItOut]

40. I know many people who belong to a Mayo-type clinic. Not so wonderful.

It's not clear to me that they do what is best for the patients.
It seems to be pretty mechanical. They tell patients
to get the annual mammogram (or whatever),
and if they get diabetes, do this or that.
But little education; not much respect.
Not much effort if patients do get a difficult disease.
They're certainly not on the forefront of science.

So I feel that single payer alone won't
enough to get us to a good or efficient
health care system. The American politicians'
capacity for waste and favoritism
is always to be reckoned with.

(Patriotic to be healthy? A nice idea.)

[eridani]

43. Single payer is just the beginning. We need all kinds of other stuff

More primary care practitioners, better access for people in rural areas, culturally sensitive access, etc. Single payer just takes care of the financing method.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Hmm funny since the Mayo Clinic is one of the best

out there (outcome wise)... I guess they cook the stats :sarcasm:

[Desertrose]

41. So perfect & so simple. K&R

Great post eridani.:)

Single payer for all....its only logical.

[Norrin Radd]

42. kr

[Solly Mack]

46. k/r

[cyclezealot]

47. Totally agree

We've been burned by Insurance companies. We are their victims. I trust none of them one bit.. TO have to become their prey goes against all we believe and all we've experienced.. They should not be elevated to our saviors, instead their CEO's should be imprisoned.

[cornermouse]

49. They don't care what you want.

Look what they did to the senior citizens with their pharmacy coverage program. My mother was expected to struggle with trying to choose the right pharmacy coverage at a time when people's mental abilities are declining.

[Prophet 451]

50. You could move to England

Under the NHS, there are sometimes short wait lists for non-emergency operations. That's unfortunate and we are always trying to reduce the waiting times but, importantly, that surgery will get done in time and without any additional expense (or, if you have the cash, you can call up BUPA and skip the waiting time). And you're covered for everything. No lifetime cap, no cutting off of care. The only time the words "pre-existing condition" come up is when your doctor is checking that what he's about to prescribe you isn't going to aggravate something else you have and while your doctor might well ask a lot of questions, none of them are going to affect you right to care, he's just figuring out the best kind of care for you.

If you call your doctor, 95% of the time, you'll get an appointment that afternoon or, at worst, the following morning. If he prescribes you drugs, you take that to the pharmacy and you pay a small contribution (currently about $15) towards the cost of the drugs; the young, old and poor are exempt from that fee (I don't pay it because I'm on disability) and, if you need them for a prolonged period, there's various pre-payment discounts. Apart from that, your out of pocket expenses amount to the occasional roll of antacids or bottle of asprin. The doctor enters the details of your treatment into his records and every week, the details are transmitted to a central source which then reimburses him. Some doctors employ special software to speed up the process but that's not required, it's just something they do for their convienience and you can do the whole thing by hard copy although, obviously, it takes a bit longer.

I suffer from Type III Clinical Depression, known as Major Depressive Disorder in the States. It took me a long time to work up the nerve to tell my doctor how I was feeling (fear of disclosure is common to depression) and I had to be forced into it by my SO in the end. When I did explain how I was feeling, my doctor asked me a few questions, prescribed me some meds, personally booked an appointment with the local psychiatrist and ordered me to come back and see him every week. I waited three weeks to see the psychiatrist. I now take 225mg of Effexor and 10mg of Zyprexa daily (actually, generic equivelents, plus 15mg Lansaprozole for a completely unrelated stomach condition), see my doctor every two weeks and my psychiatrist every two weeks (carefully arranged so I never go longer than a week without seeing one of them) and I'm gradually doing a little better. I'm still self-harming but not as often or as badly. All of this support costs me nothing, just the taxes I've already paid and the taxi fare it cost to get to the doctor that first time (I have a fear of public transport). Subsequent trips to the doctor or psychiatrist are subsidised.

Here, the average tax rate is 22% (plus 8-9% National Insurance, our version of Social Security). Part of that supports the NHS. Now, I'll be the first to admit that the NHS isn't perfect. It's difficult to think of anything that could be but let me tell you about the NHS. The annual operating budget is a shade over $2000 dollars per citizen (around 60 million citizens) per year. Most of that comes from taxes but some comes from indirect taxes. For example, I smoke. A pack of Marlboros (my preferred straight, I normally smoke roll-ups) costs about £5.50 here. Of that, about £4.50 goes to the NHS to pay for treating smoking related illness. And I'm fine with paying that. I have a habit which could be damaging to my health so I pay a bit extra to cover the cost of treating my health. Seems perfectly fair to me. There's a tax of a couple of pence on a pint of beer or about a pound on a bottle of spirits for much the same reasons. With junk food, it's easier to tax the corporate profits but they chuck a bit into the kitty as well. It's important to point out that care isn't cut off if you go over that $2000 budget or the NHS exhausts it's funds, that happens sometimes. The budgeting office of the NHS just goes to the government and says "we need this much more" and they get it. The budget is just used to give a rough idea of where the "sin taxes" (the ones on alcohol, tobacco, junk food, etc) should be set next year.

Try finding a private insurance plan that covers you for everything for that price. Extrapolating up, the annual cost to run a USHS (for lack of a better term) would be around $600 billion a year, not counting start-up costs. Perhaps you want to go the French route, usually ranked as the world's best system? That brings the price up to $900 billion. Sounds expensive but not when you consider that the combined costs of Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance is $2.3 trillion and a combined system would replace all three. Nor do you need to limit yourselves to those two systems. Other nations have different methods of administering and paying for their healthcare systems. You could easily set up a short-term committee to study the existing systems and then mix-and-match parts, taking the delivery model from this one and the funding structure from that one (for example, we tried on-the-day-only appointments here for a while. Doesn't work), until you come up with something special and uniquely American.

[WinkyDink]

52. Or anywhere else in the EU.

[Prophet 451]

55. Of course

The USA is about the only nation in the civilised world (and we can debate whether the US qualifies as "civilised") which DOESN'T have a universal care system of some kind. I just suggested England because it's my home and we share a common language.

[WinkyDink]

51. Exactly. 100%. To the point. And one would think OBVIOUS.

[Fumesucker]

53. K&R

[Rosa Luxemburg]

54. Years ago, I used to pay a small amount of my salary to the British government

and I didn't mind. I had good healthcare free at the point of use.

My guess is REpublicans would want to privatize all fire fighting deparmtents and privatize libraries. Can you imagine a private library grrr.

[eridani]

59. A private fire department would be a lot worse

What if they thought that there were not enough fires to put out to make the return their investors expected?

[seafan]

56. The case for Single Payer. It's the only acceptable solution.

Thank you, DU'er eridani, for your words.

Hey, Congress!!! I don’t want to “shop” for health insurance in any kind of “market”!

I want to pay a tax to support a trust fund which pays for care when and if I need it, just like I pay my property tax to support the fire department. In the event of fire, they send a truck out. Just the truck and people with the training required to put out the fire. No more or no less than what I would need in that circumstance. No personal responsibility questionnaires to prove that I’ve taught my kids not to play with matches, that I have my wiring up to code, that I don’t store oily rags in the basement and am truly eligible for and deserving of assistance. And especially no tripling of my property tax just for using the service. There is not one single logical reason why a heart attack should not be dealt with (and paid for) like putting out a house fire. The cheapest and most efficient way to pay for health care is to pay for it like we pay for any other public good, like schools, roads, libraries, fire and police protection, or any other part of our society’s infrastructure.

We have been stymied for 15 years in trying to overhaul our health care system, ever since Newt Gingrich and Co. sank their bloody hooks into the attempt by the Clinton administration.

Fifteen years passed until we had the hard-won opportunity to address it again.


We have the power in our hands NOW. Democrats hold the White House, House and Senate. There will not be another opportunity to get this accomplished anytime in the foreseeable future. Republicans are crouching offstage to return with a vengeance to tear down any feeble, timid attempts at health care reform.

If Democrats cannot do any better than a *50-state opt-out*, that serves only 5-10% of the population, and does not take effect until after 2013, what good are these elected officials? They certainly don't represent us.


We have to be bold, go for the whole enchilada, and never waver.


This is the big push for single payer that we must get behind. Unless Single Payer health care is ironed into law just as Social Security and Medicare were by the courageous few who were relentless in pushing for it, this battle to rip it away from us will never end with Republicans.



That is really the bottom line. Unless Single Payer is cemented into federal law, Republicans will dismantle it, and we will go another few decades before we have the power to address it again.

That is unacceptable.


Democrats, you F-ing have total power right now. USE IT. What good is **your majority** if you are too cowardly to use it?


All of you had better contemplate life as private citizens again, for if you do not deliver Single Payer Health Care for the American people for 2010, you will be going home just as soon as we can evict you. Think of some ways to explain to your grandchildren why, when you had the power to change people's lives for the better, you sat on your chicken-$h*t asses and frittered it away.