Who didn't see this coming? Conservative Bible Project trashes famous scripture that slams the rich

[ck4829]

Schlafly, the son of national political activist Phyllis Schlafly, says a conservative Bible should be masculine, for example, using the words mankind and man rather than more inclusive language. It also should shun terms like laborer or comrade. It also should put a free market spin on the sayings of Jesus.

Take Mark 10:25, where the King James Version says, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Liberals have used that passage to attack the wealthy, Schlafly said. The Conservative Bible substitutes "a man who cares only for money" for rich man.

"I don't think Jesus is saying, 'Let's all be lazy so we can get to heaven.' That's not the message. And, if you translate the word rich as simply rich, some people are going to get the message that 'I am going to be lazy so I can get to heaven easier,' " said Schlafly, who graduated from Princeton University with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and computer science and from Harvard Law School as an attorney, according to his Web site.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20091018/NEWS06/910180341/1023/NEWS01/New+Conservative+Bible+will+eliminate++liberal++text

Did Andy just equate being poor with being lazy?

[joeybee12]

1. Is Andy the gay son?

Not sure if she ahs more than one.

Oh, yeah, jesus was talking about free market capitalism centuries before that conecpt was ever thought of!

[BolivarianHero]

4. Not really true...

The Hebrews had no way of knowing about it, but there are some elements of Greek political thought that recognize the existence of private ownership of property and accumulation of capital.

[joeybee12]

6. But it's certainly not what he's aiming for...pretty much comparing it to today...

...besides, he's changing words simply because he doesn't like those words, with no thought to the original origins of the words...someone else noted this below.

[BolivarianHero]

7. I agree with you...

And I suppose my correction was overly pedantic and not relevant to the topic of a bunch of right-wing nuts trying to invent a new Bible.

[joeybee12]

14. And you didn't answer my question whether this was the gay son?

:evilgrin: :hi:

[KamaAina]

30. No. At least not the one who was outed.

That was John, her eldest.

[joeybee12]

32. Do you know how many nutjob sons she has? n/t

[KamaAina]

35. No, but Wiki does

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly#Personal_life

Four sons and two daughters. Don't know how many are nutjobs, though (remember Ron Reagan).

[joeybee12]

38. Yeah, but Phyllis makes Ron reagan Sr look like Ted Kennedy...

...I will assume all 6 are nutjobs until I find out otherwise! ;)

[Sal316]

2. They're both wrong.

The aramaic word for camel sounds/looks the same as the word for rope, which is the proper translation.

It's about the difficulty of the 'rich' in overcoming their attachment to worldly things, as materialism is considered to be idolatry.

Oh, and CBP is stupid on so many levels.

[Warpy]

15. The eye of a rope?

That makes as much sense as Andrew's Bowdlerization.

[onenote]

29. uhh. no. substitute rope for camel not for needle

[Warpy]

34. Then the analogy still holds just as well

and makes a damned sight more sense.

Thanks for the tidbit.

[Johonny]

18. The Gospel's were written in Greek

[thereismore]

23. Yes but Jesus spoke in Aramaic. However, see my other post below. nt

[Sal316]

51. But the language spoken at the time was Aramaic.

Jesus would have spoken Aramaic, not Greek.

So, your point is?

[Johonny]

62. Spoken by whom?

Certainly not Mark who wrote his Gospel in Greek. So what translation are you talking about? How could Mark make a translation error in a story he wrote?

You are assuming the story originated with Jesus. Which is possible but it might have originated with Mark or even another source that Mark or someone else prior to Mark incorporated into the tradition. Some think it's a ancient scribe copying error of the Greek word kamêlos, some think it's a Greek misunderstanding of the Aramaic gamla. However the Jewish Talmudic has a similar saying which uses the phrase for an animal passing through the eye of the needle as an impossible task, thus it's also possible Mark meant what he said and said what he meant.

[Sal316]

67. Umm...by the people in that area at that time...

...was what I said really that difficult to understand?

Oh, and I'm talking the Aramaic Peshitta, the original Eastern text of the Old and New Testaments.

Considering the original language of the oral tradition was Aramaic, camel would be a mistranslation into Greek of the Aramaic word gamla.

[Johonny]

71. but the Gospel of Mark is the source of the story

or at least the earliest surviving record I know of. It is written in Greek originally not Aramaic. More important it's not clear Mark came from Aramaic speaking culture at all. His text clearly demonstrates he thought in a Latin manner. Worse when he cites old testament passages, he does so from a Greek translation (meaning his source of these stories was translated previous to him reading them). Mark also seems to know very little about locations in Palestine indicating he was not from that area. Traditional Mark is suppose to have written the work in Rome (although that is not widely believe today). It's very likely Mark never heard the said story in Aramaic at all, it's possible Mark didn't speak Aramaic. Clearly his target audience didn't as he explains Jewish words when ever he uses them in the Gospel. You might want to learn something about the Bible and all before getting all snotty about me. I totally understand what you are saying. You just are wrong in what you think you know about the origins of the Bible or at least unfamiliar with all of the historical research on the text. Sure some people think it's a mistranslation of the Aramaic word, but a lot of people think Mark used the story as is. There's a lot of evidence to support this.

Have a nice day, understand

[thereismore]

22. I heard that there was a gate in Jerusalem called "the eye of a needle", which was

too tight for camels. Sounds like a plausible explanation.

[Demoiselle]

31. That's the explanation I've heard...

The Eye of a Needle was a small gate that a camel could pass through...only if the camel bowed down and went through, effectively, on its knees.
I kinda like the mental picture, and it works pretty well as a metaphor...ie., a rich man must be humbled to enter the Kingdom of God...

[DemBones DemBones]

65. It's a great metaphor and may be what

Jesus meant. I think the so-called "prosperity gospel" is a negative development because it's the love of money that is the root of all evil. It's not evil to have money but it's evil to make money the focus of your life because it stops you from caring about people. I don't know if this Conservative Bible is pushing the "prosperity gospel" or not -- and I dpn't plan to read it to find out.

[busybl]

47. I always wondered about the camel thing

rope would be more sensible. Thread through needle, rope can't go through needle.

[gordianot]

3. If one believes that George W. Bush speaks in Haiku's then they will buy the masculine Bible.

Truly Double + good.

[Karmadillo]

5. And thou shall not taste of the tree of single-payer or the shrub of high taxes. Into darkness

shall the transgressor be cast where he shall burn for all eternity.

[FiveGoodMen]

8. Warning: Repeat

I've said this elsewhere, but...

Anyone...Any-fucking-one who actually thinks the bible is god's word wouldn't dare try to change it.

These fuckers are insisting that we respect -- and indeed, knuckle under -- to their sacred beliefs ...

And they don't believe it themselves.

You couldn't ask for a bigger give-away. They know they're lying. They intend to continue. They expect us to keep putting up with it.

[mitchum]

44. They are just fucking grifters selling a load of shit

[busybl]

48. they do think they know more than their god.

[WinkyDink]

50. Oh, come on. EVERYone knows that M, M, L., &J were flaming LIBERALS!

[Chulanowa]

9. So basically...

They're doing this because of what they think other people think the translators thought the men who wrote the gospels thought jesus was saying?

I don't believe it, that's just way too much thinking for conservatives.

[damntexdem]

10. There must be conservative Bible literalists who are outrages by these changes.

Not to mention believers who have some connection to reason who must be up in arms.

Or maybe Xians will just accept rewriting of the eternal, unchanging holy word. But I doubt it. It takes a long time, centuries even, for various changes to holy scripture to become the eternal, unchanging holy word. ;-)

[Chulanowa]

11. All it took for hte KJV was the king going "this is exactly what god said"

Surely you realize that the majority of conservative christians are conservative more than they are christian, right?

[damntexdem]

13. Yes, but I was referring to believers in general.

And that includes mostly moderates and liberals of varied stripes.

[Kaleva]

12. Andy must think Jesus was also lazy as he was quite poor.

[damntexdem]

17. Jesus quite poor? Oh no, they'll change that.

I mean, he was a carpenter, so he must have at least been comfortable middle class, living in a suburban tract home outside Jerusalem. Maybe a few investments. Certainly a boat for weekends on Lake Galilee.

And as former Texas governor Ma Ferguson said: "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me." So all of this "translation" stuff is obviously a liberal plot. ;-)

[mainer]

20. Riding a donkey was the equivalent of having a Mercedes back then

That's what they'll tell you, anyway. Meaning: Mary and Joseph were rich folks, and so should everyone who's holy!

[KamaAina]

25. If they were rich, couldn't they have sprung for the Presidential Suite at the inn?

:shrug:

[anonymous171]

37. The Inn owner was a liberal socialist

He refused them room because he hated successful people and had already given most of his rooms away to welfare cheats.

[Mariana]

69. The inn was full in the story, wasn't it?

I don't remember that they couldn't afford a room, just that the No Vacancy sign was out.

At any rate, even if they were poor, they didn't stay that way for long after men started showing up and giving them gold, frankincense and myrrh.

[Kaleva]

73. The rich drove chariots

[Gidney N Cloyd]

24. Oh, my, he wasn't union, was he?

[busybl]

49. a carpenter, but I bet he wasn't union.

[Mariana]

58. Was he? He got a lot of very valuable gifts when he was a child

so the story goes.

[anonymous171]

64. I guess that needs to be changed too. Mary the Mother of God can't be a welfare queen after all! nt

[Kaleva]

72. Cheap imitiations made in China

The wise men came from the East did they not?

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. Conservative spin: "And there was no death tax then!"

"If anyone has gold, frankincense or myrrh they've got and want to gift to any babies, whether or not they've worked for it, they should be allowed to without government interference! You didn't see Jesus saying from the manger 'no, give 90% of the gold to Herod', did you? Huh?"

[guitar man]

16. For shame Peter, that's class warfare!

[Kievan Rus]

19. What else do you expect from the son of the Female Male Supremacist?

His kooky mother truly makes me think of that famed Chapelle show skit where he plays a black-white supremacist that hates black people.

Wacko Phyllis is the same idea...a woman that hates her own kind.

[blogslut]

21. Yes. He equated being poor with being lazy

Andy needs to spend a year working in housekeeping at a hotel.

[jwirr]

26. Encourage them to continue. It is the far right idiots that are doing

this and I think they could not have found a faster way to wake many of their central leaning followers up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I say yes, that is what he did

is this the Bible to be used by the Family?

I think so...

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. Franken was right about Supply-Side Jesus. n/t

[RainDog]

33. they're heretics, not Christians. fascists, too, with that "jesus with a hard on" bullshit

and, frankly, very sick.

[anonymous171]

36. The rich are the lazy ones. Schlafy is full of shit. nt

[liberalhistorian]

39. Both the old and new testaments are

FILLED with demands to assist the poor and needy and condemnation of those who do not. One of my favorites is Proverbs 14:31: He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God."

Over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, the scriptures exhort, nay demand, assistance for the poor, sick, needy, elderly, widows and children, and condemn, often in the strongest terms, those who either disdain such groups or who do nothing for them. That is one of the things that drives me the craziest about RW fundie theocrats, they totally ignore all of that and actually stomp on such groups. Matthew ch. 25 must be written in ancient sanscrit, because they sure haven't read it.

[Deja Q]

42. K&R - this thread really deserves far more visibility than recycled tripe...

:applause:

[Angry Dragon]

60. I agree

Reading a book by Jim Wallis and he states that compassion for the poor is the most referenced in the Bible. He goes on to state that it is rarely talked about in churches. I believe the Bible speaks often about helping the poor is paying honor to God.

[Waiting For Everyman]

70. + 1 They should give up.

Editing the Bible to suit their tastes would take longer than their lifetimes. As you said, it's everywhere.

I wonder how they deal with Jesus taking on the money-changers? (That must've been a good day!) Or what about Matthew being a tax collector? We know how they feel about taxes.

The Pharisees of that day didn't like it much either. Nothing much changes with human nature.

[Quantess]

40. The word "conservative" implies an unwillingness to change.

Re-writing the bible goes against the general idea of "conservative". People who re-write the bible to make it less liberal should not be called "conservative". "Right Wing Radical" or something like that is a more accurate description, IMO.

[Canuckistanian]

41. "poor and "lazy" are the same thing to these assholes

Writing their little Op-Eds while their Mexican housekeeprs have two other jobs to make ends meet.

Ever notice that these guys never come from working-class backgrounds?

[mitchum]

43. He is literally a son of a bitch

[Jack Sprat]

45. Has Sclafly suggested removing

Jesus and replacing Him with Reagan? That's really amazing. These people don't need to be called greedy. They seem to be 'desparately greedy'. Like "please give us more, Lord", "our yachts need to be greater for thy glory." "We must have white mink for our toilet seats NOW because our bums are chafed."

[busybl]

46. that thing should be hilarious if they finish it without killing each

other. I hope they take out the Begats... there's a waste of space.

[lonestarnot]

52. So why do they hate camels?

[MadMaddie]

53. I have young coworkers who believe the rich shoudn't be taxed

because they worked hard for their money. They believe the rich shouldn't have to pay more taxes then someone making 15 bucks an hour. I kid you not....

:banghead:

I also tried to explain to them that the middle class has been decimated and honest to God they said no the middle class is just spread out. There were people that shouldn't have been in the middle class.

The sad thing is they are smart young men and attend church every Sunday......sigh....

[Angry Dragon]

61. This is the future??

So the conservatives have finally found the brainwashing machine??

[MadMaddie]

68. It's pretty pathetic isn't it? It's really hard to argue with them when

they are not listening and they only know the years of Reagan to now.

Welcome to DU!

[starroute]

54. Have they tried to deal yet with the Lilies of the Field?

Matthew 6:19-21 and 24-34, King James Version:

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. . . .

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[Zoeisright]

55. Oh, that's what most rich repukes think.

That poor people are 'lazy'.

Even though most of them inherited their money, and grandpop most probably made the money as a Robber Baron, ripping off his workers.

Schlafly is a douchebag, just like his evil mother.

[daleo]

56. He knows what Jesus really meant

But he is probably training a camel to jump through the eye of a needle as we speak, just to be on the safe side.

[RagAss]

57. Changing one myth into another myth....what's the damage?

[baldguy]

59. These people have always made God in their own image.

Why expect them to change now?

[NYC Liberal]

63. Ah yes so not being rich means you are lazy.

Got it.

These people are whacked.

[Zomby Woof]

66. Some ironic self-in-foot shooting

Since conservatives do only care about money.

[Engineer4Obama]

74. There is a real belief among conservatives that poor people are lazy

and that rich people are hard working successful people and not just Grade A kiss asses that know how to climb a corporate later and get an MBA. Listen to any of them talk about the progressive taxation system we have and they equate it with punishing success.