Don't spend your dollars in gay-hating states

[theHandpuppet]

Time to stop supporting the tourist economies in gay-hating states like Florida and Virginia. There are a number of progressive and GLBT supporting states that would welcome our tourist dollars!

And no more money for candidates who do not support FULL EQUALITY for our GLBT citizens. Enough is just freaking enough!! I just can't take all the lily-livered lip service and broken promises anymore. :mad:

[Neecy]

1. Add Utah to that list...

[theHandpuppet]

3. Thanks

I guess Utah didn't come to mind as a tourist destination, whereas Virginia and Florida promote themselves as such. We hear a lot of nightmarish stories here about Florida, but I'll bet a lot of folks here are unaware that Virginia has some of the most gay-hating laws in the country, some of which were enacted in just the past few years.

Time for folks who believe in equal rights for all to put their money where their mouths are and show these bastions of bigotry that their gay-hating will hit them in the pocketbook, whilst states that respect the dignity and equality of all citizens will be rewarded.

[XemaSab]

15. Utah is a beautiful state

The rock features there are otherworldly. Arches, Canyonlands, Capitol Reef, Grand Staircase/Escalante, Bryce...

Too bad they are run by bigots, and I will not be spending any more money there. :(

[mitchtv]

128. Me neither

Not on my list

[WolverineDG]

2. Add California to the list too! nt

[Initech]

17. You are aware that most of the funding for Prop (h)8 came from out of state right?

A lot of the funding can be traced back to Utah (Mormon church) and Colorado (crazy Christian fringe groups like Focus On The Family).

[1]

18. i am aware that the votes came from within the state...

[XemaSab]

19. Yeah, but most of the voters came from within the state.

:P

[WolverineDG]

40. But the majority of Californians voted for it nt

[slackmaster]

46. It doesn't matter - Most of the votes came from within the state

:argh:

[Unvanguard]

36. If you add California, you'd have to add all of the country but the Northeast

because a Prop. 8 equivalent would pass in the majority of US states--probably by much greater margins than in California.

It is only because California is particularly liberal that a constitutional amendment was only passed after same-sex marriage was legalized, rather than pre-emptively.

[thatsrightimirish]

89. San Francisco is so Gay hating!!!!!!!!

[WolverineDG]

106. Glad to hear you got Prop 8 defeated

oh wait....

dg

[thatsrightimirish]

118. quite a statement

aren't you from Texas? I'm sure many of the gay owned businesses in San Francisco will appreciate the boycott. Not only were there rights taken away, now you are forcing them into bankruptcy! :eyes:

[WolverineDG]

120. Glad you appreciate the $ & time I spent to defeat

that stupid amendment in Texas, as well as Prop 8.

And it's the OP who wants to bankrupt everybody...I just added California because I'm tired of the High Holy Blue States being held to different standards.

dg

[CoffeeCat]

4. Come to Iowa!

After you spend your dollars, you can get married!

We love ya! :-)

[theHandpuppet]

5. Actually, we've been thinking about it

Had never considered Iowa before but because Iowans have demonstrated such support for GLBT citizens, that support deserves to be rewarded. Guess I'll have to send off for an Iowa tourism guide!

:hi:

[wolfgangmo]

90. You could visit River City.

Think of it as a whirlwind tour of a great American Musical.


Seventeeeeeee Six Trombooooooooones. ...

[iamjoy]

6. There's Good People in Florida Too

I am ashamed of and embarrassed by my state's records on equal rights for GLBT. However, please consider a few things. The city of Orlando provide domestic partner benefits, I think you'll find most of our larger cities do. I believe the major tourist attractions in Central Florida (Disney, Universal and Sea World) offer Domestic Partner benefits as well. There are also a lot of gay-friendly hotels and restaurants.

There are a lot of gay people who live and work in Florida - many in our hotels, attractions and restaurants - who would be hurt by a boycott. To any one who can't tolerate cold, it would seem options for living in a gay friendly state are limited.

I would encourage any one traveling to any state to shop around for gay friendly businesses. To blanket a whole state as gay-friendly or gay-hating seems a little unfair. After all, if you go to Massachusetts, you could end up staying at a place run by some one furious about their state allowing same sex marriage. Or, you could come to Florida or California, both of which have vibrant GLBT populations. Most larger cities may offer a GLBT Chamber of Commerce. I don't normally think CoCs are anything great as they are usually way too pro-business, but it does speak to the strength of the GLBT community in metropolitan areas - even those within states that passed hateful, discriminatory amendments.

[theHandpuppet]

8. Sorry, but no. And it's not unfair, it's practical.

Florida is what I call a gay-hating state because of its oppressive laws. You know exactly what I'm talking about so don't accuse me of calling everyone in Florida a bigot.

It's quite obvious that until there is a real incentive for a majority of voters, politicians and business people in states such as Florida and Virginia to support equal rights, these states will continue to support and pass oppressive laws because there are no consequences for their oppression and bigotry! I'm not going to play a closet game of hunting around for some gay-friendly business in a state where the very lives of GLBTs may be at stake.

No more games. No more going along to get along. No more placating bigots. Enough!

[Nikki Stone1]

11. What has been happening in Virginia?

I know Florida has been hopelessly backward, but I haven't been keeping track of Virginia.

[theHandpuppet]

13. Hi Nikki

Here is one article that explains the shameful laws in Virginia:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36314-2004Jun12.html

Now to illustrate to folks here just how such laws effect real people's lives, take this one passage from the article:

"When gay marriage came up, Virginia was among the first states to preemptively ban it, in 1997. Moreover, Virginia is the only state to forbid even private companies, unless self-insured, from extending health insurance benefits to unmarried couples. That provision affects cohabiting straights but works a far greater hardship on gay couples, who cannot marry."

My partner has worked for quite a few years for a company which, until Virginia passed its draconian anti-gay laws, gladly provided joint health benefits for both of us. When Virginia passed its "Marriage Affirmation Act" in 2004 we lost those benefits. Even though the company she works for was perfectly willing to have offered them they could no longer do so by Virginia law. As I have MS I can no longer find affordable insurance on my own. Nor are our long-standing medical directives recognized, should I have to go to the hospital. We live each day hoping and praying that one of us doesn't fall ill and short of a medical emergency, I simply don't go to the doctor anymore.

I'm sick of it and I'm DONE with playing nice. And now it looks as if that RW fundie whackjob McDonnell (R) will be the next Gov of Virginia, so who knows what's in store for us next. Damn, I wish we could move to New England.

[Nikki Stone1]

108. Wait...isn't this the same party that supports corporations doing what they want to do?

Goddamn, Virginia!

I am assuming that West Virginia is worse?

[iamjoy]

31. It Is Unfair

I'm not even sure it's practical. What do you hope to achieve? Do you really think the backward people are going to get the point when you paint the whole state with one brush? The only consequence our legislature will ever recognize is getting voted out of office or losing campaign contributions. Believe me, a lot of us are trying, but when you're dealing with crazily gerrymandered districts it's a little tough.

[theHandpuppet]

35. That's your opinion (that it's unfair) and I disagree with you

I will make choices that REWARD those states that support full and equal rights for all Americans. Those states that support GLBT rights are, by and large, also states whose laws support unions, reproductive choice for women, and democratic leadership. If I'm going to contribute to a state's coffers, let it be them.

[closeupready]

44. Well, the Florida orange juice boycott worked to get Anita Bryant fired.

So boycotts can work.

[iamjoy]

122. That Was One Campaign

That was one campaign against one product with the single goal to have them drop the bigoted spokesperson.

It's a little different than boycotting a whole state.

I'm still not sure whether sales of orange juice specifically dropped or if the Florida Citrus Commission just didn't want the controversy. The Orange Juice boycott had celebrity support. I can't imagine celebrities would move from California to a gay-friendly state.

[Lorien]

67. It's not practical at all. Fight against the politicians, not the people

who live and work in these states. Fight against the corporations who support GLBT hating politicians. Boycott THEIR products. Attacking your friends as well as your foes is idiotic. I support GLBT rights, I live in florida-in a predominantly GLBT community, and I work for a pro GLBT corporation. What you propose is a direct attack against me and every GLBT person living in my State.

[theHandpuppet]

75. A battle can be fought on many fronts.

As far as I can tell, all the good intentions in the world aren't resulting in progress in some states. I've been fighting the good fight for decades, and not just for GLBT rights. At some point you have decide when you've had enough. To me, encourging a boycott of vacations of states that discriminate against gays would be the same as boycotting states that would discriminate on the basis of race. That may not reverberate with you in the same way it does me, but that's honestly the way I feel. At some point you have to tell the driver you aren't willing to sit at the back of the bus any longer. I'm deciding to support and reward those states that support my rights as a gay American.

[wolfgangmo]

91. I agree

If they want equal tourist dollars then they must do something about the laws. There is nothing like a good swift kick in the pocket book to wake some folks up.

[XemaSab]

16. I would be truly curious about what percent of Florida tourism is dominated by

Miami and Key West (two known gay tourism destinations).

Even Disneyworld is pretty gay-friendly.

It seems to me that without those areas, Florida would have the tourism appeal of Lubbock, Texas. :P

[iamjoy]

30. Maybe

And I don't mean to imply "dominated by" because I think that has a negative connotation. Florida beaches frequently get named amongst the best beaches in the US, but a lot of those pretty beaches don't have the reputation as being gay friendly. I think Orlando is the top tourist destination in the state, but that's not really Orlando, it's Disney.

However, if point is that Florida is a handful of moderate to progressive areas while the rest is swamp and rural - well, I'll give you that. :-)

I just think the idea of boycotting a whole state punishes the good along with the rotten.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

55. Hardly.

Have you seen the Everglades? Florida's springs? The Ocala National Forest? St. Augustine? Sanibel Island and just about any secluded beach on the Gulf Coast? The Kennedy Space Center?

There's a hell of a lot more to Florida than just Miami, Key West and Orlando.

And I'm sure there's probably a thing or two that's nice to visit about Lubbock, too, although I've never been there so I can't say for sure off hand.

That's like saying other than Los Angeles or San Francisco there's nothing worth visiting in California. And I'm sure you can tell me otherwise.

[XemaSab]

85. I've seen Sanibel and the Everglades

They're both very nice. I went to both places on the same trip that I went to Miami and the Keys with my gay best friend. :P

Okay, maybe comparing the rest of Florida to Lubbock was a stretch, but I still wonder what percent of Florida's tourism is centered around the Keys, Miami, and Orlando.

And if you want me to draw a comparison to California, I'll do it.

I would be truly curious about what percent of Florida tourism is dominated by Los Angeles and the Bay Area (two known gay tourism destinations).

Even Disneyland is pretty gay-friendly.

It seems to me that without those areas, California would have the tourism appeal of Lubbock, Texas.

Well, okay, saying that Yosemite, the north coast, and Santa Barbara have the appeal of Lubbock does seem a little unfair. Some of those areas have the POLITICS of Lubbock though. :(

My larger point about Florida is maybe most people go to Florida to visit the more liberal areas, and to call the state in general gay-hating might not be such an easy label to apply.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

86. Okay I got you on the larger point.

Sorry, I just have an automatic reaction to the notion that Florida = Disney World = Florida. Not being a big fan of the Mouse, I feel inclined to speak up.

But I get what you are saying. :thumbsup:

[iamjoy]

121. I Live In Florida

I've lived here all my life, so I know that in reality there is a lot to it. It was clumsy of me to concede points otherwise, although I was speaking in terms of demographics and where one might find broader support for gay rights. We always have several beaches ranked as the nation's best. Although the Everglades is basically a swamp. A national treasure, but a swamp.

[cwydro]

112. Key West is VERY gay friendly

and will marry gay couples.

But don't waste your time with the state-haters. They are too busy feeling superior.

[Arkana]

7. I live in MA, so I'm all set.

And not only can gay people get married, they can smoke a bowl while doing it.

[Selatius]

9. I think Florida should be split in half just north of Orlando. Would that make people happier?

I mean, the southern half of Florida is a lot more liberal and tolerant than the northern regions of Florida. Would that make people happier?

[theHandpuppet]

10. There are liberal oases in every state

Such as Austin, Texas. But one cannot settle for just some rights only in "protected areas". We are not wildlife to seek sanctuary in some designated preserve, WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY. Our rights should be full and equal in every corner of every state of this nation. There are some states who have welcomed the equality train and the economies of those states -- such as Iowa -- should be recognized in a positive way. Conversely, as long as there are no consequences for perpetuating bigotry, there are places in this land where nothing will change. I thought we all learned that lesson during the Civil Rights movement.

As for me, NO MORE MONEY to candidates who do not support FULL and EQUAL rights for GLBT citizens.

[Selatius]

27. But the Civil Rights Movement changed the law at the federal level, not the state level.

As it stands, there is nothing comparable to the Civil Rights Movement for passage of a new and national civil rights law outlawing bigotry against gays. Right now, they're doing it on a state-by-state campaign, but that will stop the second every state that could pass same sex marriage is finished doing so. Then, you're only left with states like Utah or Texas or Mississippi. They will not budge one inch on this.

Then, you're faced with another ugly confrontation between federal power and states' rights, and the politicians at the federal level don't want to touch this issue.

I was being flippant with my original post knowing full well partition was an unworkable solution out of the gate, but God knows I'd join on the band-wagon, but until we can get the same kind of numbers of people on the street that the Black community put on the streets back in the 1960s under revolutionary leaders like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., those politicians are just going to punt on the issue.

[theHandpuppet]

29. Part of the problem is putting a face to the movement

What machinations of the universe place a man like Dr. King at the forefront of civil rights movement? Would the movement have succeeded as it did without him? I can't imagine that it would, though perhaps the barriers would have fallen much later. Yet even today there are those who would deny him a day of remembrance and as if to rub salt in the wound, pair a state holiday of Martin Luther King Day with the birthday of Robert E. Lee.

Perhaps Harvey Milk might have been that man, had he not been assassinated. Though there are a number of high-profile gay rights organizations, to my mind there is no one "face" to the movement. Some of the existing organizations seem more concerned with protecting their slice of the non-profit pie than with actually advancing our rights. Some would actively discourage taking to the streets, preferring the more polite dinner-party " don't scare them!" approach. But there is no face to our movement for equality that even brushes the shoetops of a Dr. King, who did advocate boycotts and taking to the streets. He knew the score.

Sometimes I wonder just how many of our fellow Dems here would be willing to march, boycott, even be arrested in the name of equal rights for their GLBT brothers and sisters. Every time someone posts another nightmarish story about a gay man being beaten, a lesbian being denied visitation rights on her deathbed, a decorated veteran being booted from the military, et al, I read a lot of outrage and sympathy here on DU but how much of that translates into real action? You'll have to pardon me for saying that I've become numb to words, cynical to sympathy and am fast running out of "hope".

Bottom line, all I can suggest is to stop supporting bigotry in any way you can. March. Boycott. Stop writing checks to candidates who don't believe in or won't support full equality for ALL Americans.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

52. Not exactly.

You have Gainesville, Tallahassee, Daytona Beach in northern part of the state--all lean liberal. And even in seemingly conservative strongholds you have some good liberal pockets of resistance--traditionally red Jacksonville/Duval County almost went for Obama in 2008.

Plus North Florida is just so darn beautiful with the lush forests and the natural springs. As a South Florida resident who is envious of North Florida's natural environment, I would hate to lose the Northern part of the state.

[mitchtv]

12. Well actually, there is no reason to visit VA

they have made that clear, To the person who says add CA to the list, I have more rights in Ca than most Gays in USA (certain obvious exceptions are well known), but things are better every day.

[theHandpuppet]

14. You bring up an interesting point

GLBTs should think very carefully about where they choose to travel because you could end up in a world of shit should there be an illness or accident. Another reason to avoid states such as Virginia. Best to check the current laws in the state you choose to visit.

[KamaAina]

115. Case in point right here

from FL no less. WARNING: Do NOT click if there are sharp objects nearby. :grr:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6810321&mesg_id=6810321

http://blog.mattalgren.com/2009/09/hospital-forces-lesbian-to-die-alone

We arrived shortly after 3:30 in the afternoon, around 4pm, a social worker came out and introduced himself as Garnett Frederick and said, “you are in an anti-gay city and state. And without a health care proxy you will not see Lisa nor know of her condition”. He then turned to leave; I stopped him and asked for his fax number because I said “we had legal Durable Powers of Attorney” and would get him the documents. Within a short time of meeting this social worker, I contacted friends in Lacey, WA, our hometown, who went to our house and faxed the legal documents required for me to make medical decisions for Lisa.

:cry:

[taterguy]

111. Sorry, I can't live without occasionally visiting the New River State Park

Is it ok if the only money I spend in the state is the admission fee for the park.

I won't even buy gas.

[Touchdown]

20. Come to Colorado! We have Balloons!

:crazy:

[theHandpuppet]

21. Gee, thanks for your input

:eyes:

[Touchdown]

22. Oh' pull the stick out. We never get in the news unless...

Some idiot family stages a hoax, or some 6 year old beauty queen is killed. We did knock down Amendment 2 though (Well, the Supremes did that), and Denver is a very gay friendly city, as is most of the ski resorts.

[XemaSab]

24. The pisser is that almost every state has a gay-friendly town

It's the other 99% of the state that is backwards.

And I say this as a lifelong Californian.

[theHandpuppet]

25. This is a life and death matter for my family

So don't you dare tell me to "pull the stick out". How fucking dare you make a joke of this.

[Touchdown]

28. Ok. I guess I'm supposed to know that, but I don't.

You did not mention anything about your family in your OP. And in reality I agree with you. Money (especially gay money)should not be spent in states that have ant-gay laws.

Now, back to my offense to you. I can't change my behavior, if you don't tell me what I did to offend you. You do not have to tell me any personal story you don't wish to, but keep in mind that I do not know anything about you. If you have a personal and important reason to rally cry, then I'll trust that. But make no mistake, I am not to blame for your situation, or to blame because I don't know about your situation.

[MissMarple]

114. Surprisingly, Colorado Springs isn't so bad, either.

We have a solid progressive presence despite all the big name, self important fundies and wackettes like Malkin.

[Dreamer Tatum]

23. Simpleminded broad-brushing nt

[theHandpuppet]

26. Don't let my rights get in the way of your convenience

Laws are laws. Facts are facts. And the fact is, some states have laws on the books which profoundly and negatively affect the lives of GLBT Americans.

[musicblind]

100. I'm openly gay, a gay rights activist who has performed (for free) at several pride events, BUT

Gay Days at Disney provides positive support for the Gay Community and it is wrong to punish the Disney Company for something they can't control... they were one of the first entertainment companies to go out on a limb for gay people and provide us with partner benefits among other things.

It is IMPORTANT to support pro-gay events and venues in states like that because it does a lot more harm than good to ignore such events in places where they need to be supported the most.

So don't just use a broad brush and then claim anyone who doesn't agree with you is anti-gay rights.

[vadawg]

33. yup, way to win the states over to your way of thinking,

how much less do you think the people of the states are going to care about your cause if they hear you are boycotting them, personally i will continue to spend my money in the commonwealth regardless of outside boycotts...

[theHandpuppet]

34. At this point...

...the folks at the helm of the Commonwealth pretty much demonstrated that they cared enough to strip us of the least shread of our rights and dignity, so whether or not they might care even less is moot. GLBTs have legally hit bottom in Virginia. There aren't any more laws they can pass against us unless the next step would be to round us all up and send us to re-education camps. But I'll be damed before I put any more money into their state coffers. I will make choices that REWARD states that support US.

[vadawg]

37. well its your choice, but ill continue to contribute to my home state regardless

just means that the commonwealth will need the extra money from its citizens that usually spend in other states to offset any differences..

[CBGLuthier]

32. Don't forget California

Biggest gay hating state on record so fat.

[mitchtv]

126. Dry up

we lost an election and still are way ahead of most of the country

[Unvanguard]

38. I can't see what difference such boycotts would make.

To have a meaningful deterrent effect, it would have to be very large-scale and very public, when right now it is neither--and even then it would probably make little difference. Boycotts can effectively pressure businesses, because they are profit-seeking machines, but political communities like states are not so easy to influence; usually, politics trumps economics, especially when boosted by resentment of collective punishment and "outsiders" trying to dictate things.

As for not giving money to candidates who do not support full equality, does it matter to you if a Republican with even worse views on LGBT rights comes to power instead? Under Republican presidential and congressional rule, all federal legislation on LGBT issues proved impossible; if the Republicans regained a house of Congress, it would probably never even make it through committee. The fact of the matter is that however disappointing the Democrats can be, the Republicans are worse, and supporting the Democrats in every way possible is the only way to keep the Republicans out.

[closeupready]

45. As I say upthread, boycotting FL orange juice led to the cancellation of Anita Bryant's sponsorship

deal. So boycotts DO work.

[Unvanguard]

58. ...Right, when targeted at particular businesses. That's what I said, isn't it?

That was a good idea, and if you wanted to do an equivalent now, I'd be behind that fully.

Edit: The point is that in the orange juice case, you punish economic institutions that seek profits--they were the ones using Anita Bryant, and they will respond to boycotts. Your proposal involves punishing voters, and those are a very different animal.

[theHandpuppet]

48. To answer your question....

Re: "As for not giving money to candidates who do not support full equality, does it matter to you if a Republican with even worse views on LGBT rights comes to power instead?"

Frankly, I've fallen for that argument for nearly forty years. But no more. No support, no progress, no money. That's it. Having a Dem majority in both the House and Senate and a "fierce advocate" for the GLBT community in the Oval Office hasn't done squat. I'm not paying for lip service, but results. But boy do they love our money.

[Unvanguard]

59. It hasn't done what you (or I) want it to do

but it hasn't done "squat" either. Hate crimes and ENDA will definitely pass; DADT seems likely.

The most serious danger to progress is the Republicans retaking the House in 2010. Try getting rid of DOMA then.

[theHandpuppet]

72. 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016...

The check will be in the mail when we get the goods. I've been paying for 40 years on empty promises. No more.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

39. Can we spend money at gay-friendly locales in those states?

Walt Disney World is very gay-friendly from what I've heard. Shouldn't they be rewarded even if the rest of the state is ass-backwards? :shrug:

[theHandpuppet]

41. Your tourist money also stuffs the state coffers

I would prefer to provide economic support to states that support US.

[tabbycat31]

42. NJ is a gay friendly state

for the time being. All hell will break loose is Christie is elected though. We're trying to pass marriage equality during the lame duck session.

[closeupready]

43. amen to that, sister!

n/t

[slackmaster]

47. Unrec because California desperately needs all the money we can get

:nuke:

[theHandpuppet]

49. Yeah, too bad this wasn't another balloon boy thread

Or this discussion would have had a score of recommendations by now. Or if it was yet another thread where folks only had to express their righteous outrage at yet another instance of gay hating, perhaps a hundred.

But thanks for trying to send this discussion to the cellar.

[slackmaster]

50. It belongs in the cellar because it's a broad-brush attack on everyone in certain states

Like mine, where a razor-thin majority opposes same-sex marriage.

In case you haven't noticed, we do have a lot of people in California who favor the civil rights of LGBT people. The same is true of the states you called out in the OP.

[theHandpuppet]

51. Don't be ridiculous

My OP was and is an attack on those states whose LAWS oppress GLBTs. Yeah, right, I said everyone who lives in Virginia or California or Florida is a bigot. WRONG. What I said and what I will continue to say is that I will not spend my tourist dollars in states that have gay-hating laws. I *WILL* instead choose to support the economies of those states that have shown their support for equality. I will also support those organizations who are actively fighting gay-hating laws in states that oppress GLBTs.

Seems there are a lot of folks all over the country who are sympthetic to GLBT rights just as long as we don't get too uppity or inconvenience anyone.

Edited to add: I see a number of other DUers have also decided to join you in tossing this discussion under the bus. Congratulations.

[slackmaster]

54. Withholding tourist money from states hurts all the people in the state

Not just the idiots who passed the oppressive laws.

What I said and what I will continue to say is that I will not spend my tourist dollars in states that have gay-hating laws.

Good. We already have plenty of knee-jerk bigotry here.

[theHandpuppet]

57. Would you choose to vacation in a state that was segregated?

Let's try this argument on another foot, shall we?

Would you be so outraged if I chose not to spend my money in a state in which it was illegal for black Americans to marry? For Latino Americans to adopt? For a disabled veteran to sit at the bedside of his dying wife? That would deny a single Mom the right to housing or a job? Well in some states GLBTs have none of those rights.

If I choose to express my disgust at this and conversely, express my economic support for states that have offered a good measure of equality and dignity to GLBT Americans, you can be as outraged and indignant as you want. Throw another unrec on the pile for good measure.

[slackmaster]

63. Please name the state and I'll tell you

...Well in some states GLBTs have none of those rights.

GLBT people are not yet protected at the federal level. That is the real problem. Perhaps you should boycott the entire United States of America. I would support your actions. I'll even donate $20 toward a one-way trip to some friendly European country of your choice.

[liberal_at_heart]

65. you make a good point

There is a judge in Lousiana right now in hot water for refusing to marry an interracial couple. The Governer and other state officials are actively trying to get him off the bench. So far the state has avoided being stigmatized by this one judge, but if it were illegal for all interracial couples to marry in the entire state of Lousiana I have a feeling the rest of America would have a less than favorable view of that state.

[theHandpuppet]

69. Exactly. Thank you.

The logic is so inescapable yet there are some who would twist themselves into pretzels trying to rationalize why discrimination against GLBT Americans isn't just as abhorrent as other forms of legal discrimination.

[slackmaster]

87. That JP's (he's not a judge) actions were ILLEGAL and not representative of the state's policy

Interracial marriage is protected at the FEDERAL level. A state that wanted to ban it (or enforce an existing unconstitutional law baning it) could not legally do so.

Same-sex marriage is going to require a federal fix too.

[WolverineDG]

66. No, your post attacks the people in those states

and it's very clear what your intent is based on your response to someone from a red-state.

dg

[theHandpuppet]

70. Bullcrap!

This is an issue I have brought up before on the GLBT forum. You don't know squat about my intent, WolverineDG. If my OP results in just a few people questioning where to spend their vacation money this year or next, then it will not have gone for naught.

[WolverineDG]

71. Check your response to this poster

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6813869&mesg_id=6815586

Funny how you run around demanding respect & tolerance, yet you refuse to give it.

dg

[theHandpuppet]

73. You mean this scathing response?

That's your opinion (that it's unfair) and I disagree with you

I will make choices that REWARD those states that support full and equal rights for all Americans. Those states that support GLBT rights are, by and large, also states whose laws support unions, reproductive choice for women, and democratic leadership. If I'm going to contribute to a state's coffers, let it be them.

Good gracious, how utterly uncivil of me! You've GOT to be kidding.

[WolverineDG]

76. Someone pointed out to you that there are those in red states who are fighting hard

for GLBT rights but the deck is really stacked against them, yet you just brushed that aside & said you didn't agree & that it was just an "opinion."

Newsflash, asshat: Many of us in red states sent money & live bodies to help defeat Prop 8. We're also fighting for those rights in our states as well, apparently without YOUR help, because you're too busy running around demanding your rights be recognized.

dg

[theHandpuppet]

79. Good for you and good for them

I live in what could be considered a red state and my partner and I will continue fighting for GLBT rights here as well. Yeah, I've been fighting the good fight for 40 years but go ahead and brush me aside and call me an asshat. When it comes time for me to spend some vacation dollars, I will still make the choice to support those states that have shown their support for their gay citizens.

[liberal_at_heart]

56. your state has been targeted

I'm sorry slackmaster but it seems to me that the conservatives have converged on your state and are heavily targeting it. They want it to be known to the rest of the world that the most liberal state in the union is no longer the most liberal state in the union. That is why there was so much money poured into ref 8 from other states. I hope those like you can keep keep fighting against the conservative movement in your state, but the conservatives seem to be very organized and very determined.

[slackmaster]

64. That is not the fault of the good people who live here

They want it to be known to the rest of the world that the most liberal state in the union is no longer the most liberal state in the union.

NewsFlash: California has never been the most liberal state in the union.

[liberal_at_heart]

53. Ref 71

I was already planning on voting yes on Ref 71 in Washington State. I heard a story today that shocked me. Back in 2006, flood waters trapped a Seattle woman in her basement and she drowned. I heard about this story when it happened. What I didn't know until today was that her lesbian partner couldn't see her in the hospital before she died. To me, this is an outrage. The GLBT community can count on my vote. I don't do much traveling. Florida and Virginia aren't really on my list to visit anytime soon. I am near California. My husband was wanting to drive down there in the next couple of years. Of course we've also been wanting to visit Victoria BC too. Maybe we'll go there instead of California.

[liberal_at_heart]

74. if ref71 doesn't pass

If Ref 71 doesn't pass in Washington State I encourage people not to spend tourism money in my state either. The conservatives are trying to use Seattle as an example just as they used California. Seattle is a progressive city and they are targeting any and all progressive cities and states. For the citizens of a state to take away rights that the state government has given is just appalling to me. If this had happened during the civil rights movement African-Americans never would have recieved the rights they have now.

[RebelOne]

60. I lived in South Florida most of my life and had many

gay friends and co-workers. I never knew anyone down there who had any animosity toward gays. South Florida is definitely gay friendly.

[theHandpuppet]

62. Are you aware of the laws in FLA regarding the rights of LGBTs?

I'm talking LEGAL DISCRIMINATION here, not whether there are people in South Florida who have gay friends or are "gay-friendly".

[Lorien]

68. Then fight the politicians and the corporations who fund them

don't fight your own army.

[Orsino]

61. It's hard to boycott entire states.

But on a large enough scale, well worth doing. I hope that I will always make exceptions for GLBT-friendly businesses.

[WonderGrunion]

77. Come to Maine before November.

Hopefully we can stay off the list after the election too. The latest polls show that the "No on 1" side (the pro-equal marriage vote) is ahead. I'm cautiously optimistic.

[theHandpuppet]

80. Wonderful

We've always wanted to visit Maine and now have even more incentive to make that a reality.

[WonderGrunion]

82. We were the first state to have a governor sign an equal marriage law

But there is a stupid "people's veto" election happening this November. They were hoping that an off year would keep turnout low enough to overturn the law, but two tax reform initiatives and a medical marijuana initiative seem to be guaranteeing a significantly high turnout. High turnout will keep the bigots from getting their way.

[pipi_k]

78. OK, Massachusetts...

allows gay marriage.

So it's OK to spend our tourist dollars here.

BUT...

what if we unknowingly ended up spending our money at an anti-gay establishment?

What are people supposed to do, run around asking restaurant and store owners whether or not they support gay rights before handing over their money?


Seriously...what's the point of boycotting anti-gay states? To break their economies? That probably won't happen. As someone upthread pointed out, boycotting a specific business because of a specific issue can work. Although the Fundy boycotting of Walt Disney a number of years ago over some things they found objectionable wasn't exactly a screaming success...

OK, so the next best thing is boycotting on principle. Which is an admirable personal decision.

But if we're going to be doing things on principle, why stop at the state level? Why not get really gung ho and ask every single business we come into contact with (not to mention their employees) where they stand on certain issues.

I wonder if someone would actually have the nerve to tell me I "don't support their lifestyle" if I decided to buy occasionally from a small local market whose owner is anti-gay than to travel 20 miles into town to find a more gay-friendly place when all I need is a gallon of milk or some eggs.

Well, I buy a lot on eBay, and I imagine I've probably bought from Republicans, Freepers, anti-gay rights Fundies, and from people who live in "gay hating" states. If I did, I never knew, and I'm not about to start asking people's politics before I buy stuff.

[theHandpuppet]

83. I do as much as I can and when at all possible

For instance, we boycotted Cracker Barrel and encouraged others to do so because of their discriminatory hiring/firing policy against gays. My partner changed doctors when she discovered his office was a repository for anti-gay tracts. So if deciding to vacation in Maine or Iowa rather than Florida or Virginia (whose economies rely a good deal on tourist dollars) will help support the economies of states that extend rights to GLBT citizens, that's what I will do. Perhaps if enough folks did the same a message could be sent that "equal rights are good for business!"

[Touchdown]

81. After reading all your indignant responses, including to me, I have come to...

the conclusion that you need to take a breath.

You give no examples of states that we should not go to. You broad brush and dismiss all of the good, gay people and activists in each of those states who have fought for what rights we do have in these states that you hate. Not one example of what your outraged about. Not any list of states that don't meet your approval. You got nothing, and expect us to just fall in line.

I ask you again, what "life or death" issue for you is it? How dare I "make a joke" out of this? How dare you browbeat me and the rest of us when you can't be bothered to tell us any specifics to what you outraged about. You cannot rally people to your side by being a drama queen.

I withheld an unrec until I got a handle on what your all about. I just unrec'd.

[theHandpuppet]

84. Yes by golly, I AM indignant

Further, I most certainly provided examples of states where I won't be spending any tourist dollars, even in my OP. If you want the rundown of laws state by state, you can find an overview here: http://www.hrc.org/laws_and_elections/state.asp

I also provided you with a very personal example of how these laws are very much a life and death issue for me and my partner:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6813869&mesg_id=6814575

You made a joke of my frustration and anger -- and that of millions like me -- then take umbrage that I am indignant? Well fire up that unrec button, as I can very well see that you have plenty of company here at DU. Nothing fires up that good old unrec button than a queer who won't play nice anymore.

You are correct about one thing, though -- I am probably too angry right now to continue this discussion in any constructive way. Many responses in this thread have not assuaged my suspicions or frustrations.

[Touchdown]

93. Oh' I see. You've made a bullshit assumption that I'm straight.

... and then extrapolated that into a "It's a gay thing. You wouldn't understand" dismissal. At least you have a fucking partner, Drama Queen! Mine left me for a woman. You are not angry or frustrated. You are histrionic.

You have MS. That is unfortunate, and my sympathies. I certainly understand your outrage about the law denying DPBs in Virginia. I got the shit beat out of me 25 years ago for being a faggot. The "law" did nothing about it. Your cross is not bigger than mine.

Back to the subject.
In "Gay Friendly L.A.", I was called a faggot on a daily basis in grade and Jr High school. The local news always showed the drag queens whenever there was a pride parade.

Then my later years in HS, my family moved us to "Blue State Washington", where we planted roots in the most fundy infested city on the eastern desert. It was so welcoming to hear that burn in Hell sermons from those who weren't even preachers. Eastern Washington might as well be Idaho. This is where I got beat up... in BLUE STATE WASHINGTON... for not having the luck to be in the western liberal rainforest, but the unluck of being in the fundy paradise of Yakima. The place is a fucking dump.

I went to my first gay bar, and met some wonderful people in San Antonio.. RED STATE TEXAS! And I felt welcome and free.

I had my first sexual experience with another soldier in the anti-gay ARMY. My 2nd through my 6th too.

I marched in gay ride parades in Kansas City Missouri... another red state. I felt welcome and free there too. We shouted down The Fred Phelps clan in the early 90s when none of the rest of you even heard of him. We sent him and his brood scurrying for their van.

I live in Colorado... the infamous "Hate State" of Amendment 2 fame. Lost to history is that also in 1992, another anti-gay ballot measure was NARROWLY DEFEATED in bastion of blue Oregon. Oregonians dodged a bullet, but only barely. I still remember the petitioner's name. Lon Mabon.... did you? Colorado gays were galvanized by the passage of Amendment 2 and became the most politically active and outspoken in the Rocky Mountains. The Pride celebration in Denver draws 40-60,000 each year. Colorado was also the 3rd state to de-criminalize sodomy in 1972. Tell that to BLUE STATE Massachusetts, who still had theirs on the books when the SCOTUS struck them all down.

I have 5 very good friends, all gay, who live in Florida. I am not about to avoid visiting them because they have the disadvantage of their jobs moving them to a state that bans them from adopting children. They are there, they are fighting, and I love them.

[theHandpuppet]

95. I assume nothing about you

The "millions like me" are the millions who are damn sick and tired and mad as hell and aren't going to take this shit anymore, even if it means butting heads with friends and foes alike. You're not at that point, but I am. Each person has to decide which battles to fight and how, and I have made my decisions, some of them with great reluctance.

Good luck to you and to all of us, for we will surely need it.

[Touchdown]

103. I am well past the point. I just know of a different tactic.

Fight to make life better where you are. Abandoning the rest of us because we don't live in a state that you approve of is neither helpful or effective. The boycott of Colorado in the early 90s didn't work. The US Constitution did.

Did you just gloss over my brief history? Don't condescend to me that I am not at that point. I've been there, and have learned what is effective and ( my involvement in Queer Nation) what is not.

[Ishoutandscream2]

105. Great post, Touchdown!

[XemaSab]

88. So aside from Maine and Iowa, which states are gay-friendly?

Help us out here.

[theHandpuppet]

92. To different extents....

Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Connecticut, Oregon and Washington. The rights guaranteed among these states vary widely. Here's an interactive map you may find helpful: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112448663

[Touchdown]

94. Washington and Oregon! Please!

Try living there! In the Eastern two thirds parts. :rofl:

[theHandpuppet]

97. I understand the eastern parts are ultra-conservative

Seems to be the regular pattern between urban/rural areas. Oregon and Washington both have real fights on their hands. On another front, the D.C. City Council just passed a resolution to recognize civil marriages from other states but unfortunately that has to be rubber stamped by Congress and I'm not very hopeful.

[Touchdown]

104. Now you're getting close.

It isn't the states, it's the cities. Gay people are much more accepted in metropolitan areas than rural ones, no matter the state. It's the nature of diversity, acceptance of people who are forced to live with one another. It's just a by-product of life experience.

Boycott Tulsa, Colorado Springs, Spokane, Arlington Texas or Tupelo, but not Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, New Orleans or Alexandria Va. As red as it is, I wouldn't even boycott San Diego.

[cherokeeprogressive]

96. Unrecc'd. There are gays and lesbians in EVERY FUCKING STATE OF THE UNION.

Fuck 'em all, right?

As the father of a teenage lesbian, I actually take offense at silly notions like this. My daughter wasn't yet 18 last November, and wasn't able to make her voice heard on the matter of Prop H8te. Had she and others of her generation been of voting age, the outcome might have been different.

Stupid stupid stoooopid.

[theHandpuppet]

99. I take it you disagree with economic boycotts as a manner of protest

Gotcha. I'm going to take my vacation dollars to Maine or Iowa where gay folks have rights, so it's a big FUCK EM ALL to every other gay person in Amerika!!! :sarcasm:

[cherokeeprogressive]

101. Isn't that the end result of boycotting a state like California?

Don't the gays and lesbians who live in my state suffer as well?

[theHandpuppet]

109. All gays, everywhere, are suffering NOW

Who's to blame for that? If some of the folks on this thread would spare just a fraction as much anger for the real oppressors here as they have for me, who knows, we might actually get somewhere. It's a nice deflection of responsibility. Progress will not be painless. Equality will not come without choice and sacrifice. For too long too many have waited for some kind of bloodless coup that will visit during their sleep to leave a bill of rights under their pillow.

There's another thread on DU regarding a case in Florida where a partner and her children were denied visitation at the deathbed of their loved one and mother. That thread has 147 recommendations. Were those awarded to bring attention to the case, to the level of gay-hating in this country, or are those self-congratulatory slaps on the back for righteous indignation? (And yes, I rec'd that thread myself.)

Lots and lots of folks -- and well-meaning folks -- are rightfully disgusted and appalled by this story. It's when you ask folks to do more than get angry that you upset the apple cart. We're supposed to make everyone feel good and assuage any responsibility they may feel just because they respond to bigotry with disgust. But asking folks to question the real choices they make every day infers some level of personal responsibility. All of us want the struggle without the discomfort. Who wouldn't? Folks want to register a protest against Florida's hateful laws as long as they don't have to think about missing a trip to Disneyworld.

So when I propose something as simple as boycotting states with gay-hating laws and instead suggest they spend their tourist dollars in states that support our rights, you see the real anger beneath the indignation. It's quite revealing, actually.

During the Civil Rights boycotts of the 60's (yes, I AM old enough to remember them) there were those opposed (even among the black community) to boycotting on the grounds that this tactic punished the innocent along with the guilty. Unfortunately, this is true. It is also true that economic boycotts WORK. At some point you not only have to refuse to sit in the back of the bus, you make sure those busses don't run.

Do I believe there will ever be a mass, co-ordinated economic boycott to put pressure on state governments that continue to churn out gay-hating laws? No, I do not. It's a pipe dream but when it comes down to it, I'm a realist. As a movement we are still leaderless, still trying to play by the rules of polite society and political chess because making people angry HURTS. Do I foresee a time when it will be against federal law to deny GLBT people full and equal rights, including the rights of marriage? Hell, the Commonwealth of Virginia didn't vote to ratify the Women's Suffrage Amendment until 1952 and until 1994 it was illegal there to even serve a "known homosexual" a drink.

No, I do not think I will live to see that day of full equality. As a nation, I truly believe we are not at the point where we have mustered the national will to do what is necessary to make that happen.

[musicblind]

98. But see Disney World is in Florida and Disney is a relatively gay friendly company

Plus, what about Gay Days at Disney World? Then we'd have to all miss out on that :(

[theHandpuppet]

102. You know, sometimes it's hard for me to respond...

But I think I can sacrifice a trip to Disneyworld. It's really no wonder we're spinning our wheels on the road to equality.

[musicblind]

107. I'm openly gay, a gay rights activist who has performed (for free) at several pride events, BUT

Gay Days at Disney provides positive support for the Gay Community in a place that NEEDS positive support for the gay community. Your original proposal is shortsighted and based on hate not actually gaining rights for anyone. What WOULD help us gain rights is to support gay friendly vendors and locations in these states. Thus showing the states the strong financial dollars of the gay community and in turn showing them how much MORE money they could be making if they made gay friendly decisions. It is wrong to punish the Disney Company for something they can't control... they were one of the first entertainment companies to go out on a limb for gay people and provide us with partner benefits among other things.

Not supporting things like Gay Days or Gay Clubs or other Gay friendly events in these states will cause those events to dry up and make it even harder for the local homosexual community in these areas to protect and defend their own rights.

It is IMPORTANT to support pro-gay events and venues in states like that because it does a lot more harm than good to ignore such events in places where they need to be supported the most.

So don't just use "cutesy" remarks and a broad brush and then claim a gay activist who uses his BRAIN when making decisions is why we are "spinning our wheels", as you claim, on the road to equality.

[theHandpuppet]

116. Well, that's one theory

" What WOULD help us gain rights is to support gay friendly vendors and locations in these states."

Your tactic is one way to fight the battle, even if I disagree with its effectiveness. Call me a cynic, but I believe that as long as there are no consequences for bigotry and discrimination there is no incentive to change the laws. Continuing to stuff the Florida state coffers with our tourist dollars, to me, sends a message that we are fine and dandy with the status quo. That's *my* perception and I suspect there are many homophobic lawmakers in Florida who feel no pressure to change.

I would choose to REWARD those states, also with gay-owned businesses, who have shown their support for equality as a sign that equality is good for business! I am also wary of vacationing in any state with laws as draconian as Florida or Virginia. What happened to that vacationing lesbian couple from Washington could happen to any of us in a state where we have no rights.

[cwydro]

110. Don't forget California!

But hell yeah, stay out of Florida!

Never mind Key West is one of the most gay friendly spots in the US.

No, never mind that. Best to broadbrush the whole state.

[cwydro]

113. oh and I forgot to say

unrec.

Sick of you stupid state-haters.

There is nothing more simplistic than your thinking.

[theHandpuppet]

117. Gotcha

I'm trying to set a record for unrec's today. Thanks for contributing, but not to the discussion.

[ddeclue]

119. Umm gay people actually live in Florida you know...

how about don't spend your money at gay hating businesses instead?

:eyes:

[WolverineDG]

124. because it's easier to whine & bash

than actually do something constructive.

dg

[ChickenHawk]

123. I think another approach should be...

to frequent those states that are anti-gay, but search out those business and towns in that state that are pro-gay. The more you support the gay-friendly businesses in a non-gay-friendly state, the more money and power you give them in their fight to change their own state.

I understand your frustration and respect your choices, but I think the damage you'll do to a state by avoiding it is miniscule, while the support you could give to pro-gay businesses could have an impact.

Of course, it's your money and you're free to do what you wish with it, I just think there are more effective ways than boycotting the whole state but YMMV.


Mark

[blue_onyx]

125. You live in West Virginia

Isn't living there and spending your money there supporting a state that doesn't "support FULL EQUALITY for our GLBT citizens?"

[mitchtv]

127. How about boycotting any state that has

more than 1 Mormon temple? (evidence of major social problems)