WTF? HuffPo Giving Homeopaths A Forum As If They're Legit

[stopbush]

Again, WTF??

HuffPo's latest assault on intelligence may be read here, penned by Dana Ullman, a self-proclaimed "expert in homeopathic medicine" (I thought medicine referred to remedies and methods that have been tested and proved by the scientific method. Is there such a thing as "homeopathic" medicine? How about "voodoo" medicine? How about gullible belief systems?) :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/homeopathy-for-allergies_b_320998.html

At least many of HuffPo's posters aren't afraid to call this BS out for what it is

[slackmaster]

1. I'm Alerting this because you are obviously a Homeophobe

:nuke:

[Blue_In_AK]

180. Ha! Good one. n/t

[Whisp]

2. bullshit. medicine has been around a lot longer than big Pharma

don't be ignorant.

[trotsky]

4. Homeopathy is not medicine.

Make sure you understand exactly what "homeopathy" is. (HINT: It's not herbs or supplements.)

[Orsino]

304. +1

There's no peer-reviewed professional literature, so it's not even a science.

[vadawg]

5. problem is theres a difference between the medicines of indigenous peoples

and what betty or bob dream up in their drunken haze in their kitchen, or the other numerous idiots who insist that by eating bat guano you will live to be one hundred and fifty...

[Warpy]

6. It used to involve leeches, infusions of known poisons,

massive bloodletting, and physical torture to encourage demons to leave. In other words, before the advent of true, evidence based practice, it was the same kind of superstitious hooey that homeopathy is.

[JuniperLea]

66. Leeches are used today...

To create or increase blood-flow in reattached fingers, toes, etc.

[closeupready]

111. And maggots. They eat the dead flesh from wounds, and as I understand,

and leave healthy tissue alone.

[JuniperLea]

113. Yep...

I think too much is being lumped into this self-righteous thread...

[closeupready]

121. I agree. Many here give Flat Earthers a run for their money.

:D

[Maru Kitteh]

295. The difference is in intended use and verifiable result

Leeches were (before the age of reason) prescribed for things like pneumonia, dysentery or smallpox.

Now, we rely on scientific study. That is why life expectancy has doubled.

REASON.

[BR_Parkway]

217. Botox is an infusion of a known poison - and it's as medically blessed

as it can be apparently. It's botulism - food poisoning is how most of us know it.

[Oregone]

233. Which isn't relevant to homeopathy

The toxins exist in the Botox formulas. There are no actives in homeopathic formulas of many common potency levels.

[Sebastian Doyle]

237. infusions of known poisons are bad?

So.... you oppose chemotherapy then?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

263. He's probably referring...

to the toxic doses of lead, mercury, arsenic, etc. that woo woos used to inject into patients.

Arsenic used to be commonly used in homeopathy, for example.

[Sebastian Doyle]

265. Did you see 60 Minutes last night?

Specifically the part about the doctor who believes it may be possible to kill cancer by injecting nano-particles of gold into the patient, then zapping them with radio waves.

Gold is a natural substance, which is toxic to the human body. Would you be in favor of this treatment, if it works?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

267. Of course. If it worked.

It's a shame Kanzius is a quack who also thought he invented a perpetual motion machine.

"Gold is a natural substance, which is toxic to the human body."

Gold is not toxic to the human body.

Derivatized gold nano-particles are not a natural substance.

[madeline_con]

285. It was called medicine then, too. n/t

[Oregone]

7. Don't be ignorant about homeopathy. Its sugar water

[JuniperLea]

68. If it works, many people don't care if it's the placebo effect or not...

As long as the pain subsides.

This is the thing, we need to do more research on the placebo effect... and it's not beneficial to the BigPharma bottom line, so we won't.

[Oregone]

93. You shouldn't defend the efficiency of homeopathy by applauding the efficiency of placebo

I have some dirt pills to sell you

[JuniperLea]

97. I'm not... I'm saying the placebo effect is genuine...

And it should not be poo-pooed alongside homeopathy... And should be more fully investigated... And some people don't give a flying rat's ass what the nature of a placebo is, or how they get it, as long as they are relieved of some pain because of it.

And I have some old Dr. Seuss, Winnie the Pooh, and other easy readers that you might be interested in since you can't seem to understand simple sentences in the English language.

[Oregone]

109. The placebo effect is sometimes genuine for certain conditions

But if that is ALL homeopathy is, then they are selling fake hope in a bottle for almost every condition. This can lead people to not get the necessary treatment they really need, or spend money on a fradulent product that would be as effective as cheaper dirt pills. If homeopathy is only placebo, its existence is indefensible, as there are other placebos that can be cheaper and more responsibly given (such that people who need chemo aren't taking diluted bee shit)

[JuniperLea]

112. Who are you arguing with?

I'm not sure...

:shrug:

[Oregone]

118. Same

The Placebo Effect is a Red Herring in the homeopathic debate. You can both have evidence of a Placebo Effect of any pill and evidence that the raw actives in homeopathic remedies have no efficiency on their own.

[wolfgangmo]

144. Don't take it personally. S/He does this with every subject he

disagrees with personally whether s/he understands the subject matter or not.

[wolfgangmo]

143. Um no.

It isn't sugar water.

Here's a hint bucko. Don't beleive everything you read on websites. Please get a minumum of education in this area before you feel free to comment like you are an expert.

[Oregone]

151. What is the volume needed of a 30C solution to ensure 1 ingredient molecule is present?

Assuming water is the base for the solution, and assume that X in the number of molecules in 1 ml of the original substance

Hint: the volume of water needed to dissolve just 1 ml of the original at 30C is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 metres cubed. Do the math.

A lot of zeros, eh? Maybe there just isn't anything important in that little vial.

Sugar. Water. An empty wallet. A hopeful heart.

[wolfgangmo]

213. I should clarify

It ain't sugar.

But it is water.

When you keep mentioning sugar water you are incorrect in that some/most homeopathic preparation are not based on sugar.

[Oregone]

219. From what Ive read, more than water is often used...

Sometimes alcohols and sugar are added. But yes, mostly water as the dilutant.

[Posteritatis]

197. You're right, of course; it's just water, not sugar water. (nt)

[alarimer]

284. It's not even that; it's water.

Things diluted to undetectable levels by water ARE water, essentially. Oh, there is some bullshit about the product still possessing the "memory" of whatever substance it was but that is just bullshit.

[stopbush]

8. I'm going to assume that you're ignorant of the basic premise behind homeopathy.

Yes, back in the pre-scientific age, people relied on folk cures. Things may have worked but no one knew why. Was it the herb or the special prayer said at the time? I'm sure more people died from such treatments than lived.

Many medicines started as herbal or "natural" treatments. By applying the scientific method to such treatments, we've been able to identify the active ingredients in such natural cures and to harness their power into medicines. Why anyone in this day and age would trust untested herbal "medicines" over lab-tested and proved medicines is beyond me.

But that's not what homeopathy is about. It's the belief that water has a memory, and diluting active ingredients in water to a point where the laws of physics no longer apply and calling it a medicine. it's BS.

Don't be ignorant.

[vadawg]

wow its worse than i thought, i got it confused with the new age herbal crap

but its just water, and you are right i grew up with no or very few modern medicines everything was natural, given the choice id rather have the pharma version of the medicine than what we had...

[Oregone]

20. Some of that "herbal crap" is beneficial

At least you are taking something, eh? But homeopathy..its nuts. Yes, I also just learned what it was recently, and was absolutely surprised. Its odd it all gets lumped together and people don't know the difference. Its also strange people are allowed to sell homeopathy at all

[vadawg]

24. im specifically talking about all the new age herbal crap

ive seen stuff that certain herbs will protect you from swine flu etc or will cure cancer, all stuff that people are making up or drawing conclusions from the one person who happened to get cured and they happened to eat bat guano. As i said i benefited from herbs etc growing up but the crazies who revel in it scare the crap out of me...

[Oregone]

26. If ANY herb is claiming it will protect you from swine flu, it is breaking FDA regulations...

...and is probably produced from a shady company to start with trying to make a quick buck before they get shut down. Their blatant disregard for the law may be indicative of their business strategy (and perhaps the efficiency of their products).

Just an FYI. Companies are totally out of compliance to make any claims to cure or prevent disease and sickness.

[vadawg]

29. oh no im not talking about companies as much as the online herbalists who prescribe vit D

for swine flu, or eye of newt for gangrene, you know you have seen them on just about every forum on the web, the crap they peddle is scarey.

[laughingliberal]

176. There is much interest in Vitamin D by the medical community lately

Every year they seem to find more roles vitamin D is playing in the human body. My interest in it perked up several years ago when a friend diagnosed with Graves disease was prescribed 1000 IU per day by her endocrinologist. Here's a Time column from May which talks about the growing role of this substance:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1896749,00.html

[liberal_at_heart]

264. doctors are studying vitamin D

I know people who are at risk for osteoporosis and if their vitamin D levels are low their doctors prescrive vitamin D to help protect their bones.

[kimmerspixelated]

174. If you would take the time to actually look at one of those

bottles or ads, you will find the standard "The FDA has not ...blah,blah,blah" I have NEVER seen an ad that specifically said it cured(because they know the law)anything. People buying these products would rather EDUCATE instead of MEDICATE! They have done their research, looked at the results of thousands of years of documentation??? I will tell you that the flu came to our house and we are recovered after Oil of Oregano, etc. Gee I guess that means that herbal crap really stinks!!

[Oregone]

184. heh.

Ive taken the time to make plenty of the labels that go on those bottles. Im pretty familiar with the way the herbal industry works, as well as compliance regulations. Despite a products efficiency, and despite disclaimers, no claims can be made that are not greenlighted by the FDA as being scientifically verifiable.

Yet its done all the time regardless

[kimmerspixelated]

169. If you benefitted from herbs why are you bashing them?

Equally, people who think that only Big Pharma's toxins have the true/only answer scare the hell out of me! There are a lot of strong anti-virals out there that can help or stop the flu! But most of you don't care, because you think it's all voodoo. Are all blondes stupid? Very close minded.

[vadawg]

201. because given the chance modern medicine is better

modern antibiotics are better than putting mouldy bread on a wound, only people who have had access to modern medicine their whole life and never had to resort to whatever they can find would revel in the distain for modern pharma exhibited here, either that or kooks....

[winyanstaz]

22. That "herbal crap" gave my husband nine more years of life...

after todays modern medicine and doctors gave up on him.
I am thankful for every day we had together and the chance he got to meet and know his grandkids.
"Herbal crap" also just cured my best friend's cronic cough.
"Herbal crap" also helped me regain my health after three and a half years of catching every cold and flu that came along after I had gotten a flu shot.
Whatever "natural" stuff you were using..it was obviously the wrong things because it works good for others.

[vadawg]

25. yeah okay, but i bet you if it did work then it was stuff that was

scientifically shown to help not some new age crap that someone posted on the net..

[winyanstaz]

145. it was mullein, colts foot and blackberry leaf teas...lots of local honey...

organic only foods and lots of bananas and fruits especially.
What really made him turn the corner (he was down to 97 lbs (six foot tall)when they sent him home from the hospital to die)
was some medical marijuana brownies a friend gave him that gave him back his appetite and after that we also used flute playing to exercise his lungs.
He did not die from advanced copd..by the time he died he had gotten so much stronger sometimes he could go without his oxygen.
What killed him was the main stream medical doctors insisting he take blood thinners and that made his heart work overtime to pump the blood and he died of a massive heart attack while in the hospital for a little cold (we always took him in if he was sick just to be safe..or so we thought)
He may have also had a reaction to the cold "medicine" they were giving him in the hospital.
If I had just kept him home and kept on the diet and herbs we did instead of trusting the doctors.....he might still be with me today.
Main stream "Medicine" also killed my ten year old grandson Cory.
He went in the hospital while sick with the flu in Everett Washington.....they gave him a shot of something "to help him stop vomiting" and he went into convulsions and died. They claimed it was that he had a bad heart already..but he was fine but just had the flu until they gave him that shot.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kimmerspixelated]

182. Thanks for sharing.

So sorry to hear about your losses.

[winyanstaz]

329. That is kind of you..thank you.

[renate]

320. I am so so so sorry

How absolutely tragic. What a horrible and devastating shock. :cry:

I'm very glad to hear about your husband's added years of life. But what a heartache the loss of your grandson must be. :hug:

[winyanstaz]

328. He was a sweet child. We miss him very much

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. No it didn't.

[vadawg]

38. lol i was trying to be kind, but as usual the knife between the ribs is expertly driven

[Name removed]

114. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wolfgangmo]

164. If that was an expertly driven knife ...

... well let's just say that there won't be any Ninja's worrying about their jobs with HighFrucPornSyrup applying for the job.

Person one - that wasn't my experience

You - maybe it was something that was tested that worked and not what I was talking about.

HFPornS - No it wasn't.

You - oooooooo, you are so masterful. May I lick your boots.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

168. More like...

Person 1: blackberry tea cured my so-and-so's heart disease.

Me: No it didn't.

I'm not claiming it's any masterstroke. But at least it's correct and succinct.

[loudsue]

170. I'm with you winyanstaz!

The medical establishment in this country produces more dangerous voodoo than beneficial medicines these days.

I wish doctors were trained in BOTH kinds of medicine, because so many more people would be cured. As it is, nobody gets cured, they just get to stay on some pharmaceutical medicines for their entire life, which just enriches the crooks that are charging Americans 500% more for our meds than they charge the countries they export them to.

[stopbush]

288. "BOTH kinds of medicine"????

Homeopathy is NOT medicine. It is quackery, pure and simple.

[kimmerspixelated]

179. YEA!!!!!!

DINGDINGDINGDING!!!!

Good post-I couldn't agree more.

[eShirl]

28. well, there's herbal crap, and then there's herbal crap

but nothing should be a subsitute for proper medical diagnosis and treatment

[loudsue]

70. That is incorrect. Homeopathy is based on the principal that same

cures same.

Besides, you are WAY to scared of homeopathy to be an objective person to listen to.

Homeopathy (and herbal cures) works in all of the other developed countries in the world. Just not in the U.S. where the medical industry OWNS people's minds and pocketbooks.

[Occam Bandage]

74. First, it's "principle." Second, "same cures same" is complete nonsense,

based on nothing but a misunderstanding of how vaccination works. Third, homeopathy has never been proven to work in a single peer-reviewed study in any country in the world. In fact, for homeopathy to work, just about everything science knows about medicine (and literally everything science knows about water) would have to be dead wrong.

If homeopathy works well "in all the other developed countries in the world," why haven't they ever been able to prove any effect whatsoever in a single peer-reviewed double-blind study anywhere?

[loudsue]

98. You are completely off base, and are not familiar with what you're talking about.

There have been studies, and there have been many clinical successes using homeopathy.

Homeopathy hasn't killed anybody like all those "scientifically studied" medicines you are so staunchly defending have done.

Homeopathy will be an option in this country when all of the worshipers of the American medical establishment quit being allowed to push "scientifically studied" poisons on the rest of the population, while trying to make alternative cures illegal.

[Occam Bandage]

104. Please, point me to a single peer-reviewed double-blind paper finding any benefit to homeopathy.

To anyone. Anywhere. In any language. From any country.

Oh, and here's a handy list of people killed by homeopathy: http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

[loudsue]

135. That link does not make your point. Homeopathy didn't kill anyone.

Those were questions of the proper treatment for the illness, NOT homeopathic remedies killing someone.

Every day there are poor choices made about how to treat an illness. HOUSE wouldn't be such a popular TV show if that weren't the case.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

158. Fine, they're people who were killed because of homeopathy.

Homeopathy is always a wrong choice.

You're talking about popular TV now? :rofl:

[Marr]

173. That is how quack medicine kills.

People who choose quack medicine are often doing it in lieu of real treatment. Their conditions worsen because they are not being treated.

Most quackery is completely ineffectual nonsense-- not the sort of thing is that is likely to kill someone on it's own. If people want to indulge in that *in addition to* real medicine, fine. It's their money. But if they're doing it as their sole treatment, they're asking for trouble.

[wolfgangmo]

221. At my clinic

We do integrated medicine meaning that we look at the functional validity of all types of medicine. We have patients who use everything from traditional native to homeopathy to straight western medicine. We try to accomodate them all.

Interestingly enough we get a fair number of cancer patients who have all been told that they have less than 6 months to live. (as an aside what kind of an asshole tells a patient that they only have 6 months left to live and that they have NO options). To a patient we have been able to extend their lives out at least 3 years and so far, indefinitely.

Is it a cure? No - there are no cures (we all die sometime), but it is good quality of life and more time. Our practice simply refuses to say that there is nothing else that can be done, rather we say that there is something else we need to learn/try/refer to. But I guess for some people, as long as it is not their life in the crosshairs, it's OK to say to a patient "fuck off and stop wasting time in my schedule - you're depressing me."

[Maru Kitteh]

294. You cite a sit-com/drama as medical evidence and expect thinking people to take you seriously?

By your logic:

Sabrina the Teenage Witch was attributable to the vast numbers of frustrated teen supernatural beings.

24/7 is attributable to the terrorists who lurk behind every fire hydrant and in every small shop.

Lost is attributable to the numbers of aircraft containing mostly young, hot people that go missing after most of them have killed someone and land on a magic island.

I Dream of Jeanie was due to all those Genies the astronauts kept finding in the 70's.

Fantasy Island arose because minority people of short stature were all dying to be represented as simple, asexual and inept while they helped a fancy tall man serve white people all day.

[blondeatlast]

322. Oh, FFS. And Adrian Monk IS the world's greatest detective. I can't stand it.

roflleroffleroffle

I'm supposed to take yous eriously?! :rofl:

[laughingliberal]

The article to which the OP linked seemed to suggest some studies

which were randomized, double blind, and placebo controlled 3 of which were published in the British Medical Journal.

[Lisa0825]

246. Great link, thanks! I shared it on FB!

As a former medical research assistant in molecular biology, things like this drive me up the fucking wall. And sadly it seems that liberals, who tend to think more critically about OTHER issues, are more likely to get sucked in by this total nonsense.

No herbal/natural remedies are a totally different subject. I know that some of those work, but you still have to be careful and thoroughly research them. But most people who advocate homeopathy seem to not even understand what it means. I can't even count how many I have tried to explain it to over the years. Then they finally end the discussion with the typical response, "As long as it works, I don't care what you think." :banghead:

[SOS]

274. The linked OP article....

"A group of researchers at the University of Glasgow published four studies, three of which were published in the BMJ and the Lancet. Each study was randomized, double-blind, and placebo-controlled."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. "Homeopathy hasn't killed anybody"

It kills people who forego real medicine for snake oil.

[Confusious]

218. It's bullshit...... eom

[Confusious]

220. Maybe it hasn't...

But the disease they were trying to cure didn't get cured, and people died.

"Homeopathy hasn't killed anyone" is like saying "people don't kill people. Guns and swords kill people"

[Oregone]

87. Then you dillute it until the point that water cures same

FACT

[kimmerspixelated]

188. NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!

LoudSue is Exactly right!

[closeupready]

191. I tend to agree.

:hi:

[Confusious]

222. Loudsue is giving the right definition of Homeopathy

Otherwise she's completely WRONG.

[Withywindle]

283. "Why anyone in this day and age would trust untested herbal "medicines" ...

...over lab-tested and proved medicines is beyond me."


Because they have NO HEALTH INSURANCE and very little money, perhaps?


If you're uninsured, chances are you cannot afford the expense of going to the doctor, having him/her poke you and run lots of expensive tests to tell you something you likely already knew: "It's stress. It's the flu. It's X-chronic-and-unpleasant-but-not-fatal-condition flaring up again." You're talking hundreds of dollars before you even get to the prescription!

Gee, I can't imagine why some people might choose an option that's probably going to be almost as effective, and won't force them to choose between making the pain go away and keeping the electricity on.

[stopbush]

287. "an option that's probably going to be almost as effective"

Are you serious? Homeopathy is "almost as effective" as actual medicine?

Please.

I'll give you this: homeopathy is probably as effective as prayer. Why spend any money at all on homeopathy when you can pray for free?

[Withywindle]

300. I'm not talking about homeopathy. I agree with you that's BS.

I'm talking about herbal remedies - the original natural basis for many of our modern medicines. Aspirin is derived from willow bark, etcetera. There's a huge difference between the two.

You said you didn't understand why anyone would choose *that* over the modern alternative and I gave you one compelling possible reason.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. "medicine"?

Explain how homeopathy works, or should I say "works".

Please. Be specific.

[Ignis]

40. If by "medicine" you mean "placebo," then yes.

If you mean peer-reviewed studies of clinical trials showing an improvement rate greater than that which can be explained by the placebo effect, then no.

Sorry, but the data just isn't there for homeopathy.

[Occam Bandage]

52. Homeopathy is a relatively recent invention, and has absolutely no scientific basis whatsoever. nt

[kimmerspixelated]

196. Recent invention???

Sorry. Wrong Answer! What the hell do you think was used before Big Pharma decided to synthesize everything? Some health food stores actually sell current flu remedies based on the current flu going around, as a way of immunizing. And one of the wonderful things is...it doesn't contain any of the nasty toxins that your body has no idea what to do with. Will not maim or kill! Imagine that!!

[Posteritatis]

205. "you're wrong because, uh, well, you just are! here, have a red herring!"

I love the sourced and reasoned arguments of homeopathy supporters. They're hilarious.

[Confusious]

226. It will not cure either

Imagine that!

[Withywindle]

279. People were using real herbs.

Actual leaves and roots and stems and flowers and bark and infusions and stuff. Absolutely guaranteed to taste nasty (a common saying among herbal healers is, "The worse it tastes, the better it works") but it turns out there IS considerable scientific basis for well-researched herbal healing, because some herbs do have real medicinal properties for certain conditions. Many of our modern medicines are drawn from a wild plant somewhere down the line. I wouldn't rely on them *only* for, say, cancer treatments, but I've certainly had good results taking them for colds and menstrual cramps and muscle pain and the like.

In many indigenous societies, this is combined with ritual and prayer, which has a powerful placebo effect for those who grew up in that specific culture and are deeply invested in that belief system. As has been pointed out, sometimes the placebo effect DOES have real benefit - but it has to be rooted pretty deep.

Add to this the fact that many old-school "home remedies" and "old wives' tales" have as much to do with NUTRITION as woo-woo, and yeah, I can see the combination of all three being potentially quite helpful in certain people and under certain conditions.

Homeopathy *has no active medical ingredient* worthy of the name. It's basically water that's supposed to operate on a sympathetic-magic principle (and a pretty vulgar, watered-down understanding even of that) and sold at ridiculous prices with a bullshit spiel to people who don't fully understand that.

[Confusious]

224. Homeopathy is Voodoo from the 19th century

Medical science has advanced, they're still stuck in the 19th century.

[Marr]

160. Are you really suggesting homeopathy is legitimate?

[DavidDvorkin]

3. Dangerous nonsense

made all the more dangerous by what will be seen as something of an imprimatur.

[Captain Hilts]

9. ANYbody can have a forum on Huff Post now. Blech! nt

[joeycola]

10. I am glad to see the article on Huff Post. And broadbrushing

homeopathy medicine as wrong and dangerous as you do is wrong and dangerous.

[Oregone]

11. Homeopathy isn't "dangerous". Its inert. Null. Nothing. Zilch. Placebo

[joeycola]

15. If the remedies work for some folks then so be it.

[Oregone]

16. They work for no one. Ever

[JuniperLea]

101. Bullshit... placebos work for some people...

And instead of mind fucking on this issue by holier than thou types, we should be seeing some real research into placebos.

[eShirl]

110. here's an interesting recent study

"Direct Evidence for Spinal Cord Involvement in Placebo Analgesia"

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;326/5951/404?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=placebo&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT


and many other various studies of placebo effect
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/search?src=hw&site_area=sci&fulltext=placebo&x=23&y=8

[Oregone]

115. The "actives" in homeopathy have no efficiency, if they even exist

And ONLY the placebo effect will work. Hence, they aren't "remedies". They are psychological mechanism to stimulate natural immune response

If anyone is mind fucking, its the person defending homeopathic remedies by using placebos. I don't think anyone denies the placebo effect in LIMITED situations. But we are talking about the actual efficiency of the homeopathic ingredients here, if they even exist in the solutions, not the psychological effects of taking ANY pill at all.

[closeupready]

116. LOL

:rofl:

[Oregone]

Explain instead of laugh how they can theoretically work?

Take a real life example if you will and cite the biological mechanism that enables sugar water to cure ailments.

[closeupready]

131. I'm laughing at your attitude, not your argument.

You're like someone who argues that the Earth is flat, period, end of discussion.

Or Darwin merely had a theory, and that's all it still is. (Dammit!)

There's that expression about protesting too much, and that fits here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

133. The opposite, actually.

This person's arguing in favor of the science (round earth, evolution, medicine) while you're arguing in the favor of ignorance (flat earth, creationism, homeopathy).

[closeupready]

138. A little too loudly and vociferously, and frankly, offensively.

Kind of like "eggs are a heart attack on a plate." :eyes:

[Oregone]

140. Eggs exist

The probability that a single molecule of a homeopathic ingredient exists in a commonly diluted solution (30C) is almost nil. You are more likely to get struck by lightening 12 X and win the lottery all while fucking a rabbit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

141. It's not my fault that homeopathy doesn't work.

And it's not my fault homeopaths are suckers for patent nonsense.

[closeupready]

147. Protest Too Much ( you tend not to believe a person because they insist too strongly that something

Protest Too Much ( you tend not to believe a person because they insist too strongly that something is not true ... )

http://www.goenglish.com/ProtestTooMuch.asp

Just to help you out. :D

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

150. I tend not to believe people who make false claims.

Seems we're both "protesting" each other.

It's just that I'm right and you're wrong.

[closeupready]

153. Can't let it go! Can't let it go! Can't let it go!

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

155. Boy, I'll say.

I mean, look at you.

:rofl:

[closeupready]

157. LOL

:rofl:

[Name removed]

242. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greyl]

175. Somebody once told Martin Luther King Jr that he "protested too much"

Thankfully, he gave the proper amount of respect to that fucking stupid non-argument.

[closeupready]

190. Shakespeare was stupid?

Wow. We done got us here some mighty smart people, yessirree. :rofl:

[Oregone]

203. No. People who think his writings are relevant to a discussion about homeopathy are

[greyl]

211. He didn't do shit for Africans, did he? ;)

Btw, your post was a straw argument.

[kimmerspixelated]

202. Touche'!

Yeah, that old fossil of info. Everyone believed it for awhile, until the truth came out about how good they are for you-particularly organic free range.

[closeupready]

259. Yup. Another one was alcohol consumption - bad, bad bad

And then, "oops! Looks like we may have been just a little wrong." :rofl:

[loudsue]

281. That's my thinking too. Why are they so frantically opposing homeopathy

if they truly think it DOESN'T DO ANYTHING? When I think something doesn't do anything, I ignore it. These people aren't doing that. They have their hair all on fire over something which they say is a non-thing. It certainly makes you question their motives and their paychecks.

:shrug: If something doesn't work for me, I ignore it. If it does, I use it. Homeopathy works for me very well. Pharmaceuticals generally land me in the hospital with some kind of reaction.

I'll stick with homeopathy, herbs, natural cures. It worked for several hundred thousand years of evolution, and it just might work again.

Ideally, we could have access to both types of medicine, and, ideally, doctors would desire to be healers instead of businessmen/women.

[closeupready]

308. It's like the Catholic Church defending pedophilia as "ephebophilia", a word they just made up

because it sounds scientific and nobody except them knows what it is. Meanwhile, the problem is gay priests, Anglo-Saxon prudishness, yadda yadda.

The harsh ones here sound like they are taking EXACTLY the same page from the Vatican's playbook.

(And do you know I would need more than two hands to tell you all those I put on ignore yesterday? This thread is seriously 3/4 Ignored. :D )

[Oregone]

137. Sorry Im so closed minded about sugar water

[Name removed]

139. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wolfgangmo]

172. Get this.

It ain't sugar water.

If you removed that faulty assumption then I could listen to your arguments, such as they are.

Perhaps a discussion would be a better template for behavior on a progressive blog, but then again some here seem to thrive on confrontation and hyperbole.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

177. Yeah it is.

Or maybe water with a little alcohol, or similar.

Same difference.

[Oregone]

192. What volume of a 30C potency water solution is needed to ensure it isn't sugar water?

You can use any random homeopathic ingredient to satisfy the question.

[Confusious]

230. I like how selctive you are

Earth round = science to be believed
Darwin = science to be believed
modern medicine = science to be ignored

I didn't see homeopathy wiping out smallpox, or protecting people from other diseases. I didn't see homeopathy saving peoples lives in war zones.

I think I'll go by the number of sick that are cured and lives saved, rather then a Voodoo snakeoil.

[Ignis]

Sometimes, for some people, but not greater than placebo %. (nt)

[ohheckyeah]

71. Do a Google search on prescription drugs

that work only as well as placebos. Better yet, find a Physician's Desk Reference and check out the drugs that work no better than placebos. Prozac is one drug that comes to mind.

I don't do homeopathic stuff as I do think it is only effective as a placebo, but if you're sick and the placebo effect works for you, you probably don't care.

[JuniperLea]

103. Exactly...

That's why in clinical trials, the reported level of efficacy must be higher than the percentage who will be helped by placebo.

I'm pretty sick of the holier than thou doctors around here... thanks for interjecting on this otherwise brutally ignorant thread!

[ohheckyeah]

132. You're welcome.

I don't know much about homeopathic preparations but I used to work in a pharmacy and I know that there are many drugs that are prescribed that have pretty much the same rate of effectiveness as placebos. If it works, who cares why? LOL I was suffering terribly with vertigo and I did some research and started taking magnesium. No more vertigo! It's much better than the drugs they give for vertigo.

[Ignis]

225. "holier than thou"..."brutally ignorant"

In this subthread? Where, specifically?

[JuniperLea]

238. Did I say in this subthread?

No.

[Ignis]

241. Well, it's good to know that we're the exception, at least.

Small victories against the broad brush! :woohoo:

[Confusious]

236. I'm tired of the snake-oil salesman

Charging out the ass for false hope.

[Ignis]

154. Yep, but that's precisely my point.

I'm not saying that the standard allopathic, Western M.D. approach of pill-popping while crossing-fingers-to-hope-you-avoid-the-worst-of-the-side-effects is necessarily superior to the placebo effect baseline. (However, in the cases where it is superior, the data is studied to death, published, peer-reviewed, and is ultimately repeatable.)

But that doesn't mean that homeopathy has ever been shown to have results superior to the placebo effect in peer-reviewed, double-blind studies.

Just because you hate cats doesn't mean that you love dogs. ;)

[ohheckyeah]

165. If someone can get well using

a placebo, more power to them. At least placebos don't have side effects. I'm not suggesting anyone should use homeopathy, and especially if they have a life threatening illness, but I think there is value in the placebo effect and I won't judge anyone who uses homeopathic solutions.

[Ignis]

178. I don't disagree.

The problem is that many pro-homeopathy organizations have done their cause no favors by attempting to leap-frog over the standard research process.

I don't fault anyone for using homeopathy, because the line between real medicine--be it Eastern, Western, herbal, pharmaceutical, or what have you--and quack treatments is incredibly shaky for most people, as they don't have access to the underpinning research, and are often left to self-prescription or taking medicine one the advice of non-scientific friends or family.

The FDA is real and not likely to disappear any time soon, so homeopathy needs to get serious about publishing real studies and not overstating claims if it wants to be added to the canon of acceptable treatment plans.

[ohheckyeah]

207. and I agree.

Did you know drugs can be sold that have never been approved by the FDA? I didn't but they certainly have been. Estratest was recently taken off the market because the company was sued for selling it when it was never approved by the FDA.

[wolfgangmo]

200. For me this entire argument comes down to research versus application

Those of us at the clinical level, when faced with both a patient in need and with something that seems to be working for them then we might support their use of it as long as we get to monitor their progress both clinically and with lab tests.

This is why people should always consult a physician (with the caveat that some physicians are overworked, and some tend to assume that they know everything about everything and some make mistakes).

Yes I am going to get flamed but 2 of the docs who work in our clinic have taken training in homeopathy in order to understand what it was that some patients were asking them. We don't prescribe any but at least we can speak knowledgably about patient questions. As the owner of the clinic I have very little tolerance for a doc/nurse/etc. with a god complex. The god's don't care about mortals.

[Ignis]

214. Now _THAT_ is a wise approach.

In my experience, most people don't want to misunderstand the scientific method and the intrinsic value of a peer-reviewed, double-blind study in determining the value of a particular treatment path. But most people don't come to completely understand and internalize the value of this approach during the limited few times during which they're exposed to it--which is only high-school science classes, for the vast majority of the US population.

A doctor who is willing (and able) to take the time to clearly and rationally explain the success rate of various treatment options at a level most people can understand is a rare beast in today's commodity-driven health field. :(

So :thumbsup: to you and your clinic!

[wolfgangmo]

228. Thanks.

I'm luck. My medical staff and director are top notch, scientifically trained, open minded, smart and compassionate people.

The truly sad thing is that many of our new patients these days come to us because they have lost their insurance and we are pretty inexpensive. Good for us, but sad to see.

[Confusious]

235. Tell me zoloft only works as well as a placebo

I have obsessive compulsive disorder and major depressive disorder.

[wolfgangmo]

250. Ok - Zoloft only works as well as a placebo.

Hey you said to tell you. Bwahahahahahaha.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

257. Zoloft works significantly better than placebo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sertraline

You didn't say to correct you, but I went ahead and did it anyways.

[Frank Cannon]

17. Selling distilled water as a medicine to someone who's sick is dangerous.

And wrong.

[Marr]

187. If it didn't have a nice, reassuring word like "homeopathy" attached to it, it would be called

"conning the sick and desperate".

[stopbush]

18. To link the word "homeopathy" to the word "medicine" is to insult and demean medicine.

At best, it's a risible oxymoron.

[loudsue]

167. I'm glad there are some voices of reaon on this thread.

It is pure ignorance to believe that the established medical community in the United States is all that there is. Hell, what you get from "medical doctors" these days will kill you faster than most anything.

Thank you for chiming in!! :hi:

[blondeatlast]

323. Yes, insulin killed me 40 years ago. Did you see that on "house", too? nt

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eShirl]

14. he doesn't seem to like criticism much

(his critics are arrogant, ignorant, haters, etc)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/homeopathy-for-allergies_b_320998.html?page=9&show_comment_id=33004207#comment_33004207

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/homeopathy-for-allergies_b_320998.html?page=6&show_comment_id=33003810#comment_33003810

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/homeopathy-for-allergies_b_320998.html?page=2&show_comment_id=33035938#comment_33035938

[LostInAnomie]

290. HAHA... Man, those posters destroy the "expert" and he just whines.

That is gold.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. If a NASA Space Phallus can split the moon & make her cry, why can't sugar water cure cancer?

Answer me that, science-man! :crazy:

[HuckleB]

21. I really don't get why they're doing this.

[eShirl]

23. to sell the various books he has linked at the end of his article, is my guess

[HuckleB]

49. So even at Huffington, integrity is gone?

I know the bills must be paid, but...

[eShirl]

56. you're joking, right?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-canfield/6-simple-secrets-to-manif_b_259038.html

[lunatica]

27. google homeopathy and get educated

It's not the same as the herbal industry in the US, but it's considered legitimate medicine now. It's been around for thousands of years and has a good track record. Where do you think modern cures have come from? Penicillin comes from good old fashioned mold, like the kind we throw away when it grows on our bread. Imagine that.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lunatica]

102. classy

[108]

117. its worked great for me...

[eShirl]

31. you should take your own advice

[joeycola]

63. I have a minor in the History of Medicine and Public health. I have

researched many forms of 'medicine' and I refuse to get into a discussion with those who blast alternative forms of medicine.

[lunatica]

75. Good for you, because you're right

[eShirl]

91. I have nothing against non-traditional methods that can be scientifically proven to work.

Too many people are willing to "buy" and "swallow" anything labeled alternative.

[joeycola]

303. Yes, and it is indeed

dangerous when folks fall into traps from aggressive marketing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

163. Wow, a minor.

Color me impressed.

[kimmerspixelated]

210. I know. I keep telling myself

not to get involved with the limted thinkers, but I keep thinking I might change someone's mind!

[joeycola]

302. I sometimes try with

posters but those who just give knee-jerk reaction I have no patience for anymore. Have a good day.

[closeupready]

243. Thank you. No point, is there? I mean, that's not a discussion, it's a lecture.

Not interested in being lectured, and as I say, I hope many of 15 or so members here who I've put on ignore do not run public health information campaigns, because if they ran one that I funded and they operated as they do here, I'd fire their asses.

[vadawg]

32. who throws mouldy bread away :) but your right it makes a good poultice but id prefer modern

medical techniques especially when it comes to my kids...

[lunatica]

79. So do I. What's your point?

That only one kind of medicine is valid? And that it's Western medicine?

[vadawg]

96. more valid than the crap thats peddled by the online fruitbats as shown on this thread..

[wolfgangmo]

251. Help me out here.

Which specific fruitbat is peddling what crap?

Or are you just, as they say in Transylvania, "barking at the moon?"

[joeycola]

34. The uneducated tend to demean it before they educate themselves.

edited to fix typo. sorry.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. And then after they educate themselves...

they have even more reason to demean it.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Explain how homeopathy works, please.

Really. Right now. Please explain exactly how it works.

:shrug:

You want people to be educated on this, then go ahead. Educate.

[joeycola]

42. do a little self educating first please.

[Oregone]

44. Please explain to someone who researched

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Oh, I already know exactly what it's supposed to be about.

I want YOU to explain how it works, because I'm fully aware that it is 100% Grade-A Bullshit. Or maybe Grade-A Bullshit diluted 100,000,000 times.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. It's based on a misunderstanding of vaccines.

If you inject somebody with a dead or weakened virus, the body builds an immunity to it, and can fight the infection of the real virus once exposed.

So some 18th century kook took that idea, and figured if somebody has a headache, well then give him a tiny amount of a substance that causes headaches and his problem will go away.

There. That's the idea behind homeopathy.

And that's why it's absurd.

[Oregone]

50. "And that's why it's absurd. "

No, its more absurd. The substances are commonly so diluted there is probably not a single molecule of the original in the sugar water. This was done before there was an understanding of molecules. They probably thought a substances can be infinitely divided once dissolved

[lunatica]

85. Educate yourself. I'm not your parent

I just know that alternative medicines, especially the one's that have been around thousands of years longer than our western medicine work.

[Oregone]

123. Homeopathy isn't an "alternative medicine". Its not medicine.

If you defend it, explain how it works. Ive done a lot of reading, and simply, despite everything Ive researched on it, cannot fathom how sugar water works. Can you explain or do you have no defense?

BTW, homeopathy has not been around thousands of years.

[lunatica]

130. Reading about sugar water isn't the same as reading about Homeopathy

I'm not defending sugar water but you keep insisting. Broaden your horizons. Expand your vocabulary. Think outside the box and come up with another term.

But if you think I'm going to defend sugar water you're not quite getting it.

[Oregone]

134. Why should anything with a 12C and higher dillution be considered anything but sugar water?

Are you getting it?

[Warren DeMontague]

335. You don't even understand what it is you're defending, do you?

The word "homeopathy" conjures up visions of new age bookstores and incense and Guatemalan hoodies and all things properly countercultural, eh?

It's bullshit. It's not "alternative medicine", it's complete and utter bullshit. It involves diluting substances down to the level where not a single atom, statistically, is likely to remain of the original substance. So, yes, it is sugar water. Or maybe just water.

I don't think the Pope's magic water is anything but water, either- and it's sure as hell not "alternative medicine".

[Confusious]

240. Educate yourself

Homeopathy has been around only since the 19th century.

Thousands of years my ass.

[kimmerspixelated]

212. That seems to be the way it usually goes.

The thing is, until they try something, hopefully actually research an herb or something and then find the best form, they will think that all alternative medicine is bought from the cheap back pages of trash magazines, and not realize there is a whole world of high quality products that truly help and not hurt.

[Oregone]

41. "but it's considered legitimate medicine now" -- Its considered sugar water fraud

[lunatica]

89. Homeopathy is based on Chinese medicine which goes back thousands of years

And is still practiced today. Sugar water comes in Western medicine too. And sometimes it has side effects that are toxic bad for you. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease and sometimes the cure kills you. No medicine is perfect.

[Occam Bandage]

100. No, it is not. It was invented by the German Samuel Hahnemann ex nihilo in the 1800s.

Don't try to drag Traditional Chinese Medicine into this discussion.

It's true that "no medicine is perfect," but there isn't a single peer-reviewed double-blind study anywhere that suggests that any homeopathic "cure" has any positive or negative affect on anyone whatsoever for any disease or ailment whatsoever. Homeopathy simply is not medicine.

[Oregone]

105. Homeopathy is not medicine. It has nothing to do with Chinese medicine...

Real quick, from wiki:

A 12C solution produced using sodium chloride (also called natrum muriaticum in homeopathy) is the equivalent of dissolving 0.36 mL of table salt, weighing about 0.77 g, into a volume of water the size of the Atlantic Ocean, since the volume of the Atlantic Ocean and its adjacent seas is 3.55×108 km3 or 3.55×1020 L : Emery KO, Uchupi E (1984), The geology of the Atlantic Ocean, Springer, ISBN 0-38796032-5

Do you HONESTLY believe that a pinch of table salt in water the size of the Atlantic Ocean has the power to relieve the conditions of "emaciated persons, teething children, persons who are congested and catch cold easily, the elderly, or awkward, pubescent girls who suffer from headaches and menstrual irregularities." (http://www.answers.com/topic/natrum-muriaticum)

Honestly now...

And do you realize that a small tincture of that Atlantic Ocean water would NOT contain a single molecule of the table salt in all probability? So you think such a tincture would have any effect?

[eShirl]

162. "sodium chloride (also called natrum muriaticum in homeopathy)"

:rofl: omg

[Occam Bandage]

54. It is not considered "legitimate medicine" by anyone but homeopathic fraudsters.

There is absolutely no basis for the claim that microsolutions of toxins have any therapeutic value whatsoever.

[gkhouston]

61. No, it's not. It consistently fails double-blind tests. There are herbal remedies

that work but this dilute-it-a-zillion-times-and-the-water-will-heal-you-nonsense is utter silliness.

[lunatica]

92. herbal medicine is not the same as homeophathic medicine

That's why I say educate yourself. There's a difference.

[Oregone]

124. Exactly. With herbal medicine, you are actually taking something.

With homeopathy, you ingest nothing but water for the most part. Sometimes oil, alcohol and sugar too.

[REP]

186. 1796 is not "thousands of years" but thanks for playing.

[Cha]

195. Homeopathy works for

me.

[kimmerspixelated]

209. EXACTLY!

These folks are so limited in their thinking. I would hate to think that if I got sick, I would only have one option, but sadly, these folx that are so adamant against mother nature, think they should ONLY trust mainstream medicine.

[eShirl]

234. homeopathy is nothing more than faith-based "medicine"

pointing that out is hardly telling people to only trust mainstream medicine

[Confusious]

239. Yea, but people didn't eat the mold

and sometimes the active ingredient is so weak it doesn't work at all. i.e. homeopathy

I.e. St. John wort had me on a roller coaster. Zoloft keeps me stable.

[derby378]

324. "Thousands" of years?

Come on. I study the history of homeopathy as a side project of mine, and you know as well as I do that it originated with Samuel Hahnemann in the late 18th Century. And homeopathy had nothing to do with penicillin, although there is an interesting history behind the development of nitroglycerin as a medicine (by Constantin Hering, a homeopath).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Haven't they been going down hill for some time now?

[ipaint]

36. woo-woo, some people eat it up. n/t

[eShirl]

43. it's like a cult

[ipaint]

46. And then somebody dies, usually an innocent child.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/homeopath-thomas-sam-guilty-of-daughter-glorias-death/story-e6freuy9-1225723018271

[Feron]

48. HP has been quack medicine central for a long time.

So this new development really isn't surprising.

Homeopathy is nothing more than a placebo.

James Randi explains homeopathy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=en-GB&v=aSKxz1BNU6s

[ipaint]

107. The Huffington Post’s War on Medical Science: A Brief History

The Huffington Post’s War on Medical Science: A Brief History

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=473

[SidDithers]

108. That's excellent...

thanks for posting.

Sid

[eShirl]

119. thanks

[Warren DeMontague]

51. Homeopathy is based upon a sound scientific principle first articulated in the 1800s.

"There's a sucker born every minute"

[Oregone]

53. Its crap, pure and simple

[vadawg]

55. lol, great fecking line.....

[trotsky]

60. LOL

:thumbsup:

[MineralMan]

146. Why, it's...it's...homeopathetic!

[Ignis]

315. Yes, but if you if eat 1/100000000th of a sucker...

Does it make you immune to future suckage? :shrug:

[Skidmore]

57. People turn elsewhere when science and medicine let them eown.

Money doesn't grow on trees and neither do insurance policies or practitioners with scruples.

[kimmerspixelated]

216. Excellent!

[TexasObserver]

249. How many years have they fought medical marijuana?

That's just one glaring example of how the health care industry and most of the doctors in it have rejected something that obviously works better than any pills they produce without its active ingredients.

It has taken decades of citizens asserting the utility of pot in treatments to get to where it is now. Some day, this era will be considered archaic because of its ridiculous stance on pot, and the refusal to use it medicinally.

Being a progressive means keeping an open mind. It means NOT thinking there's only one way to look at the world, and that happens to be YOUR way.

[Warren DeMontague]

282. I smoked pot for years. Only an idiot would think that pot diluted with water 100,000,000 times

would get anyone high.

Homeopathy is like saying that walking through a hotel lobby that Jerry Garcia once walked through will make you high.

[TexasObserver]

291. You're not having the same conversation we are.

Go find one of those who IS talking about homeopathy.

[eShirl]

296. His mistake was replying to an off-topic post thinking it was on-topic.

Maybe your off-topic conversation merits a thread of its own? Just a suggestion, not trying to tell you what to do.

[TexasObserver]

297. Same applies to you.

Go find one of those who IS talking about homeopathy.

[Warren DeMontague]

331. Naw, Dude would rather just fling insults.

Because, dammit, only lost, illiterate drunk suckers pay attention to thread topics. :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

317. Who is "we"?

It's not my job to track down everything else you've said in the thread and assume that's what you're talking about. The thread is about homeopathy.

You want a thread where everyone knows you're talking about something else, go start one. Feh.

[TexasObserver]

321. That would be me and the person to whom I was replying.

Do you really need to have these things explained to you?

When you respond to someone, your post should have something to do with theirs. Yours didn't have anything to do with the post I made, and I wondered if maybe you were just drunk or lost. But I see now you simply can't read.

[Warren DeMontague]

330. You're spoiling for a fight, I think because deep down you know you're wrong.

The thread is about homeopathy, Jack. There was nothing in your post, or the post you responded to (which was a 1st gen. response to the OP) that specifically said "I know the topic of the thread is homeopathy, but I'm not talking about homeopathy- I'm talking about XXXXX".

So, obviously, the problem here must be that "I can't read". :eyes: :rofl: ...right.

[TexasObserver]

332. Not at all. I just don't suffer fools well.

[Warren DeMontague]

333. Whereas, you're clearly genius material.

:thumbsup:

[county worker]

58. Is there a way to hide these chicken fight treads?

Man this shit really makes reading DU a big waste of time.
I think some people miss the shit that went on during the primaries. At least we could hide those threads!

[eShirl]

64. click up at the bottom of the original post where it says "hide thread"

[county worker]

67. Thanks

[bridgit]

59. Yeah there is, there's a society of them: North American Society of Homeopaths

http://www.homeopathy.org the bigger picture may not be so much that Huff is conducting an "assault on intelligence" so much as they are placating homeopathic entrepreneurs, to put it kindly; more like someone is positioning these products & regimens into the HCR discussion for inclusion into reimbursable procedures maybe then derailing everything into the likelihood that it's possible to expect too much but homeopathic therapies are not voodoo, not at their base

If the health benefits of they such as chamomile tea, chili powder, cranberries, rose hips and herbal tinctures can be understood then they can be understood as requiring no voodoo only common sense

[trotsky]

62. "chamomile tea, chili powder, cranberries, rose hips and herbal tinctures" aren't homeopathy.

[Occam Bandage]

65. Homeopathy is not herbalism.

It has nothing to do with chamomile tea whatsoever. Homeopathy is the belief that microscopic amounts of toxins, diluted in water to the point where there is effectively nothing in the water whatsoever, can cure diseases because the water "remembers" the toxins and then uses that memory to fix the body. That is about as "voodoo" as you can get.

As for "placating homeopathic entrepreneurs?" If HuffPo has as their goal enabling fraudsters to make a quick buck off the gullible, then that is entirely reprehensible. If they're trying to "position homeopathy into the HCR discussion," then they are indeed conducting an assault on intelligence.

[bridgit]

76. These structures and their ability to enhance health have been in existence...

since long before they mattered on a microscope slide. May have been an infraction that caused you to get crushed by a stone, hanged or burnt at the stake in Salem by people that thought they knew everything too. The other group talking alternatives down are people very much against anything but AMA approved procedures

[eShirl]

78. so you believe in magic voodoo water? gotcha.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oregone]

86. No, they have a fine point

There are no actives in homeopathy. Its normally just water and sugar

[Occam Bandage]

94. It is indeed voodoo. Homeopathic "solutions" contain nothing but water and sugar.

The stated belief is that the water "remembers" having had something in it earlier. This flies in the face of everything we know about water. It is nothing but voodoo.

[Oregone]

142. Totally incorrect

Sometimes they have oil and alcohols in them too.

[eShirl]

95. excuse me?

[Occam Bandage]

88. Homeopathy was actually invented more recently than microscopes were.

It was invented in the early 1800s by a German who didn't understand vaccines, and assumed they must work because they can cause the same symptoms the diseases do.

Oh, and the witch-hunters in Salem were anti-rationalists. They have far more in common with homeopaths than any modern doctor has in common with either.

[bridgit]

309. But the way in which you're keying these matters is as though there was no alternative...

at the time to the accepted, bona fide even if both common and wrong medical practices of the day such as purging, bloodletting, and the use of toxic chemicals. There is. And history is replete with individuals that had their knuckles popped out of their sockets *for* suggesting that there was and is and *by* a segment of society bent on elevating themselves to a station they feel they deserve perhaps by birth perhaps by inclination though perhaps as well maybe they had a good source of leeches and blood ticks and people willing to pay for that, ahem, 'brand of science'


Not necessarily you, you seem willing to turn an object in 3D space; but certainly several standing round you have never been more wrong in their lives if they; or for that matter even you think that anyone and I repeat anyone is or has suggested medical science be replaced by homeopathy - it's just absurd to make that claim

[SidDithers]

69. Homeopathy is the biggest joke in the alt-med woosphere...nt

Sid

[Occam Bandage]

72. LMAO.

Hadn't seen that before.

[SidDithers]

80. Stole it from here...

http://hellsnewsstand.blogspot.com/2009/04/we-have-posters-too.html

They've got a hi-def version for printing :hi:

Sid

[backscatter712]

90. That is awesome!!!

:rofl:

[TexasObserver]

149. My comments lower on the page should not be seen as supportive of homeopathy.

By the time I started posting, the thread was all over the place talking about alternative medicine, and that triggered my "holistic" defenses, and my very real concerns that we overlook common sense approaches for diet and exercise to many of the ailments that send us to the doctor.

I don't approve of quackery, though, and homepathy is quackery.

[TexasObserver]

73. And you think pushing pills at all patients is sound?

We have a drug distribution system. That's what doctors are for - to prescribe the drugs that Big Pharm gives them. The drugging of America is a project by Big Pharm, with doctors getting benefits from companies and pushing the drugs they're told to push.

Doctors often fail to use common sense when addressing medical issues. They don't talk about diet. They don't talk about getting whatever you need from food or drink, instead of by pill. Do you think they'll tell you to eat bananas to get potassium? No. They'll prescribe pills. Do you think they'll tell you to drink Gatorade for low electrolytes? No. They'll tell you to limit your liquid intake.

Stop worshipping people in white coats. They kill 100,000 a year in hospitals with infections caught in hospitals, mainly because our system is so profit oriented they don't hire enough lower level workers to get the job done. Then add the people killed by malpractice, failure to get services, or failure to have sufficient coverage.

It's good to have modern medicine, but the tendency to ridicule remedies that aren't supplied by their doctor is a problem you should work on. Those other remedies make a lot of sense some times, and they're better than the pill Big Pharm made that sort of mimics what home remedies have done for decades or longer.

[Occam Bandage]

77. Do you know what homeopathy is? This is a serious question.

"Homeopathy" does not mean "alternative medicine."

[TexasObserver]

99. I've changed the term used to "home remedies."

While "homeopathic" is considered a form of alternative medicine, it's not what I'm suggesting be considered. I'm addressing the general attitude that the only remedies worth studying are those which come from a doctor's office.

I should not have included the word "homeopathic" in my post as originally posted.

[Occam Bandage]

120. Which is fine, but the topic of the moment is homeopathy.

If we're going to be talking "general attitude," here's one for you: the general tendency by CAM enthusiasts to, whenever a CAM therapy is attacked, leap to that therapy's defense (even if just by assailing "big Pharma") absolutely regardless of the charge or the field in question.

When credible evidence emerges a pill or treatment may be harmful, the medical community performs a number of studies, and as soon as any pattern to the data can be detected, new guidelines are written and the problem is dealt with. That is how actual medicine works. What happens in CAM? Look at this thread. People who don't even have the foggiest idea what homeopathy is jump in to defend herbalism, TCM, or just bash the pharmaceutical industry. And yes, sadly, this is what happens in the CAM community at large as well. I can point you to a dozen situations in which CAM practitioners have closed ranks around frauds and charlatans in their midst. Until CAM stops protecting quacks, for the safety of patients, it simply can't be elevated to the level of medicine.

[TexasObserver]

126. Read the thread. It's about more than that.

But to the extent your issue is with homeopathic medicine, no I don't support that approach to illness.

I do support sound alternative remedies.

[Occam Bandage]

129. Read my post. I know. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

161. "sound alternative remedies"

If they were sound, they wouldn't be alternative.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

271. You don't like alternative medicine. Got it. Thanks for your opinion.

You don't like alternative medicine. Got it. Thanks for your opinion.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. All patients? No.

Some people need bandages. Or casts.

But yeah, generally the best thing to do with a sick person is to give them a pill.

It's better than surgery. Or homeopathy and other non-treatments.

[stopbush]

106. Your post has nothing at all to do with the scam that is homeopathy.

Railing against what's wrong in the PRACTICE of modern medicine adds not a whiff of legitimacy to the hoax that is homeopathy. One may as well say that Eliot Spitzer's dalliances with prostitutes justified bush's illegal wars.

As far as doctors over- or mis-prescribing medicines, one may as well rant that automobiles aren't legitimate forms of transportation because there are drunk drivers. Sticking with the driving model, the claim that homeopathy is an "alternative" to legitimate medicine is like claiming that Marty McFly's hoverboard is just as realistic a form of transportation today as is a car (that is, if Marty McFly's hoverboard could be reduced to the size of a molecule and placed in an ocean as large as the Milky Way).

The reason many doctors don't recommend Gatorade for low electrolytes is because it is loaded with sugar, salt and cooking oil. There are many products on the market that do a better job than Gatorade without all of the shit that's in Gatorade.

Your basic post is woo-woo of the worst kind.

[TexasObserver]

125. Doctors get sued for malpractice because they commit malpractice.

Pharmaceutical companies get sued for making dangerous drugs with undisclosed side effects because they make dangerous drugs with undisclosed side effects.

My experience with doctors and hospitals is defending them in lawsuits where they have been sued for screwing up and hurting or killing some innocent patient. Your faith in them is charming but misplaced. They're shoving people through their offices like cattle, spending a minute talking to each one, not getting sufficient info, writing scripts for stuff they have little idea of whether it even works.

If you know someone in the hospital, go sit by them for 24 hours with a stop watch. Keep track of how much time a DOCTOR spends in the room talking with the patient. You'll be lucky to get 3 minutes a day. Our health care system is broke because we've allowed doctors and Big Pharm to run wild.

[Occam Bandage]

127. Yes. There is oversight in medicine.

Which is the primary reason why medicine is effective, and CAM is not.

[TexasObserver]

136. There's very little real oversight.

And they constantly fail to disclose mistakes in giving faulty procedures or failing to diagnose.

Like Wall Street, the health care industry has been allowed to run wild the past 20 years. It's all about the cash they generate, and that means stepping on patients and workers. It's one of the most corrupt industries in America.

[Occam Bandage]

159. Nonsense. Medicine is one of the most regulated fields in existence.

And it has, bar none, the highest legal liability. "Very little real oversight?" Compared to what?

[TexasObserver]

171. Bullshit. Medicine is the most protected civil defendant in society.

Doctors and hospitals have more protections from civil liability than any sector of society, and that's a simple fact of life. If you don't know that, you really don't know jack about the lack of exposure to liability of doctors and hospitals, or the many protections from lawsuits they have.

Those benefits they get were bought and paid for by the health care lobby, too.

Doctors and hospitals hide their errors as a matter of standard practice, then hide behind laws that give them protections no other group gets.

[Occam Bandage]

181. Of course they have protections. If they didn't, they couldn't even practice.

If doctors didn't have protections from standard civil liability, they could be put out of business the first time they tried and failed to save a patient. Do doctors have protections from liability? Of course. Because they have so goddamn much liability that if they didn't have protections, medicine would cease to exist in a week. That's a simple fact of life.

Simple test: can you think of any other field in which any member must pay a third of their income towards insurance against their legal liability? No? That ought settle it, then.

[TexasObserver]

183. That's utter Republican produced propaganda with no basis in fact.

Doctors have more protections from lawsuits than any group in America, and the reason they have them is the hundreds of millions of dollars of blood money they've stuffed into the pockets of GOP politicians the past 30 years.


And you're completely deluded if you think they pay a third of their revenues for malpractice insurance. The average person pays a lot higher percentage of their gross income for health insurance than the percentage of their gross income doctors pay.

[Occam Bandage]

189. No, it's simple fact. Do you know how much malpractice insurance costs?

If you can't find a field in which protection from legal liability costs as much, then you cede the argument: doctors have higher legal liability than anyone else, bar none.

[TexasObserver]

193. Yeah. It is a small portion of the health care costs.

And it's necessary, because doctors are committing malpractice at record rates, as they rush past obvious warning signs and fail to diagnose because some procedure isn't covered by insurance.

You have no idea how much goes from malpractice premiums and payoffs. It's a small number compared to the overall health care costs.

Sorry, but when you cut off the wrong leg, you gotta pay something.

[Occam Bandage]

198. I'm assuming your non-response cedes the point at hand,

being that doctors have by far the highest legal liability of any profession, which is a major difference between actual medicine and CAM quackery: oversight.

[TexasObserver]

204. Doctors have more protections from liability than any group in America.

In many jurisdictions, you can't sue a doctor for malpractice without already having an expert doctor give a written opinion that the doctor to be sued did commit malpractice and such malpractice produced the injury to the patient.

And even if the doctor is negligent, or grossly negligent, you can't make him or her pay for the actual damages they have caused to the patient. They're protected by ridiculously low caps.

We don't protect engineers, or lawyers, or architects that way. We don't protect anyone that way. And the ONLY reason we protect doctors that way is because they have spent the past 30 years paying hundreds of millions of dollars to politicians to enact such laws.

[laughingliberal]

256. A lot of truth to this. And many hospitals have been known to cover a doctor's errors to protect

a referral source.

[kimmerspixelated]

229. He's right!

And you know it!

[stopbush]

277. I have no faith in doctors, because they are human beings like anyone else.

Human beings screw up. Human beings make mistakes. Some are innocent mistakes, others are much more nefarious. Some are outright lies, but it is the nature of human beings that is at question in such instances, not the scientific method that allows us to research medicine.

What I have faith in - to use your term, not mine - is the scientific method, not people. People who falsify research are not following the scientific method. People who refuse to submit their woo-woo to the strictures of scientific method yet claim that their products/research/beliefs are science based are liars.

You can assume anything you will about who has faith in whom. You may trollop out any horror stories you wish about the lows to which some human beings can stoop. None of that has anything to do with real medicine v the woo-woo that is homeopathy.

Sure our health care system is broken. How does that make homeopathy anything more than a scam?

If the tire is flat on your car, you fix your tire. The world is well aware of what constitutes a good tire. The science on this is settled. No one is busy reinventing the automobile tire. Yes - some tire manufacturers make an inferior product. Some tire manufacturers get sued when their inferior product ends up killing someone. That doesn't mean that the method for making tires is unsound. That doesn't mean that we should accept as viable tires that are made out of banana peels and iodine and held together with monkey poop as being "alternatives" to normal tires just because some asshole looking to make a buck can convince a bunch of gullible people (like you) that the fact that some people get killed when inferior tires explode means that their banana-poop-iodine tires are just fine "if they work for some people."

Stop comparing apples to oranges and engage the conversation at hand.

[kimmerspixelated]

227. Yes, and the truth is Alternative Medicine is here to stay

and growing by leaps and bounds, and those who wish to cling to the the world of "Healthcare" will find themselves among the fossils of limited thinking and practices.

The root of most illnesses are deficiencies-plain and simple. It always goes back to diet. We now know that most people are Vit D deficient. Is it any wonder? We have been told to shun the sun! The very premise of deficiencies should arouse people to understand that it might not just be the D they are low on. Unless you are one who eats fish and kelp everyday, you are most likely low on iodine. Guess what-the Thyroid needs iodine to work properly. A naturopath will suggest you boost your OWN iodine making ability thru sea kelp or nascent iodine. And the list goes on....it's not always about herbs, sometimes it's about supporting your body so it will take care of itself.

Big Pharma's "cures" are just treating a symptom, and quite poorly at that.

[H2O Man]

82. silly

[SidDithers]

84. The OP or HuffPo?...nt

Sid

[rucky]

128. Don't lump herbs in with homeopathy, folks.

That's just ignorant.

[dccrossman]

148. What is Homeopathy? one quick answer

I briefly researched this when I was on a new-age kick a few years ago.

Here's my basic understanding:

Let's say you have a cold.

Take a little of that mucus and mix it with Vodka or water or some other clear medium.

For the purposes of working out the math, let's say 10 milligrams of mucus to 1 gram of medium. (That's a C. 100th.)

Shake it up good, take 1% of your mixture (10 milligrams again, and add to 1 gram of medium.

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

According to homeopathy, the more you repeat, the stronger the mixture gets.

The problem, as noted earlier in the thread, is that you usually mix to a point, that it is unlikely that even 1 mol remains of the original source material.

So, scientifically, there's nothing left of the source material that is supposed to be curing "like".


BTW, vaccines are sometimes said to be curing "like". You use a dead flu virus, to vaccinate against the live virus, as it should force your body to produce antibodies, but I digress.


In order for this method of homeopathy to work, you have to have some belief in the "energy" of the source material being transferred into the medium and somehow being strengthened by being diluted.

This is also why it gets mixed up into conversations about placebo effects. Though really, given the efficacy of most drugs, versus placebos, pharmaceuticals usually won't go there.


Personally, I think homeopathy is crazy. But if you see this as a helpful addition to normal medicine (not a replacement), then more power to you. If you see it as a replacement, then I'll hope we can save your kids from you.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[closeupready]

185. Now I just went through this thread and put probably ten people on Ignore.

And so happens, more than 50% of the replies here are invisible. Ahhh! That's so much better. :D And I would have put the threadstarter on ignore but then I wouldn't be able to see the thread at all, which isn't the problem here. :D

[Oregone]

208. So, you have nothing to add beyond that?

Get out of my sandbox! Im taking my ball and going home!

[closeupready]

244. Can't read it, Ignored so save it for someone who cares.

:rofl:

[closeupready]

194. And I just hope that the 3/4 of you who are being obnoxious aren't in charge of public health campai

campaigns, because judging by your posts here, you really shouldn't get too comfortable if you are going to be judged based upon how many ignorant people you convert. :D

[Posteritatis]

199. Hear about the homeopath who drank distilled water? He died of an overdose. (nt)

[Lisa0825]

253. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Good one!!! :rofl:

[blondeatlast]

325. SNAP!

:rofl:

[HughMoran]

206. I feel like I'm on Free Republic

It's one thing to disagree with something, it's another to spew hatred at those who have a different view. This is one of the most disgusting threads I've ever read here.

[GliderGuider]

293. Horrid, isn't it?

:thumbsdown: for hate.

[shadowknows69]

327. +1

[Robb]

301. Oh, please.

It isn't even CLOSE to the most disgusting thread I've ever read here. "I'm on Free Republic" is DU's Godwin's Law.

[ecstatic]

215. I'm about to try acupuncture. Sometimes people have no choice but to

look into alternative therapies after being so screwed by insurance companies.

[liberal_at_heart]

268. I would love to try accupuncture

I have back pain and my husband gives me massages everyday. I can feel the endorphin rush when he massages my back and it works for a little while. It feels wonderful and I love it. He even bought some hot rocks to put on my back and they feel fantastic. Of course it only works temporarily. Then it starts hurting again later. But I wouldn't give up my daily massage for anything. I don't care what anybody says.

[ecstatic]

299. Wow! He's a keeper! nt

[Name removed]

223. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kaleva]

231. Thought title read "Homopaths"

[ipaint]

232. What's the harm.

http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

"In 1995, Prescrire International, a French journal that evaluates pharmaceutical products, published a literature review that concluded:

As homeopathic treatments are generally used in conditions with variable outcome or showing spontaneous recovery (hence their placebo-responsiveness), these treatments are widely considered to have an effect in some patients. However, despite the large number of comparative trials carried out to date there is no evidence that homeopathy is any more effective than placebo therapy given in identical conditions.

In December 1996, a lengthy report was published by the Homoeopathic Medicine Research Group (HMRG), an expert panel convened by the Commission of the European Communities. The HMRG included homeopathic physician-researchers and experts in clinical research, clinical pharmacology, biostatistics, and clinical epidemiology. Its aim was to evaluate published and unpublished reports of controlled trials of homeopathic treatment. After examining 184 reports, the panelists concluded: (1) only 17 were designed and reported well enough to be worth considering; (2) in some of these trials, homeopathic approaches may have exerted a greater effect than a placebo or no treatment; and (3) the number of participants in these 17 trials was too small to draw any conclusions about the effectiveness of homeopathic treatment for any specific condition <5>. Simply put: Most homeopathic research is worthless, and no homeopathic product has been proven effective for any therapeutic purpose. The National Council Against Health Fraud has warned that "the sectarian nature of homeopathy raises serious questions about the trustworthiness of homeopathic researchers." <6>

In 1997, a London health authority decided to stop paying for homeopathic treatment after concluding that there was not enough evidence to support its use. The Lambeth, Southwark, and Lewisham Health Authority had been referring more than 500 patients per year to the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital in London. Public health doctors at the authority reviewed the published scientific literature as part of a general move toward purchasing only evidence-based treatments. The group concluded that many of the studies were methodologically flawed and that recent research produced by the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital contained no convincing evidence that homeopathy offered clinical benefit <7>.

In 2007, another review team concluded that homeopathic provings have been so poorly designed that the data they have generated is not trustworthy <8>."

[woo me with science]

245. Disgusting. The veterinary offices around here are full of this crap, too.

Doubly insulting, because obviously the dog can't "believe in it."

[Dorian Gray]

247. I have such mixed emotions about homeopathy

a) I, personally, would never use it and think it's just a bunch of BS

but

b) One of my dearest and best friend from college swears by it and is really well versed in homeopathis "medications." She talks to me about it a lot, has loads of knowledge about it... and tons of enthusiasm.


Personally, I think that it is dangerous if you ignore proper medical help for serious illnesses, though for something like insomnia or mild allergies, I can't see that it would be harmful. She takes her children to both doctors and homeopathic healers, and is up front about both to both sets of people.


I do know she gave some of her homeopathic medication to a mutual friend of ours at my house when he was allergic to my cat. About an hour after taking it, he took me aside, eyes puffy, blood shot, and totally red and nose running like crazy and asked if I had any quick action claritin. I did, and that worked within 5 minutes. (It's the kind that dissolves on your tongue.) The homeopathic allergy meds didn't do anything while the good old fashioned claritin worked right away.

But that's all anecdotal.

[quaker bill]

248. Right, wrong, or indifferent

Homeopathy is a very progressive thing. As a biologist having taken a considerable array of biochemistry, cell physiology, microbiology, anatomy and physiology, and endocrinology courses, I tend to go with western medicine. The only problem I tend to have with Doctors is when I start speaking their language.

That being aside I know a fair number of very politically progressive folks into homeopathy and alternative medicine. I tend not to critize regardless of my own convictions.

[earth mom]

252. Ignorance like this OP just blows my mind.

:crazy:

:freak:

[NeedleCast]

254. Considering the number of people killed who've used Homeopahty

as their primary source of care, you'd think that people would figure this out.

http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

The number of homeopaths who have been successfully sued (after successfully killing people with their "remedy"), it's hard to understand why anyone has faith (and rest assured, faith is all it is) in this "medicine."

[RedCappedBandit]

255. Before I entered this thread I had no idea what "homeopathy" was

Now I'm wondering if I am missing something, or if this is all a joke.


:wtf:

[eShirl]

258. many people are confusing it with herbal medicine, or alternative medicine in general

but this is what it is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic

[liberal_at_heart]

260. big believer in scientific method

I'm a big believer in the scientific method. My father puts all kinds of crap on himself trying to cure himself. He puts silver on his skin. He soaks his feet in bleach. He has even taken a bath in Pine Sol(I really don't know what that one was suppose to do). He tried to get us to use silver, even tried to put it on one of our children. I really draw the line when he tries to use that kind of stuff on my kids. Do not experiemnt on my kids. If you want to experiment on yourself that is fine but not on my kids. That being said there are effective medicines that the scientific method just hasn't caught up to yet. American hospitals are now beginning to offer what is called complimentary treatments that supplement traditional Western medicine like accupunture, massage therapy, meditation and others. Granted I don't see them offering ground up sea horses as a prescription anytime soon, but there are new treatments that western medicine is beginning to use alongside traditional medicine. I think if someone comes across something that works for them I don't see why there is a problem for them to use it. My family takes zinc when we get colds and our colds never last more than three days, so for us it works. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone, but it works for us so we use it.

[ipaint]

261. Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal gel

Finally, a homeopathic medicine that actually works!

Category: Skepticism
Posted on: June 16, 2009 8:06 PM, by PZ Myers

It's called Zicam Cold Remedy Nasal gel. Unfortunately, it doesn't do a thing for colds…all it can do is destroy your sense of smell. It wasn't caught before it was put on the market, because, get this:

The FDA said Zicam Cold Remedy was never formally approved because it is part of a small group of remedies that are not required to undergo federal review before launching. Known as homeopathic products, the formulations often contain herbs, minerals and flowers.

Minerals. Like lots of zinc, which can cause nerve damage.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/06/finally_a_homeopathic_medicine.php


Nasal spray can cause loss of smell, FDA warns
Zicam pulled from shelves; consumers urged to stop using products

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31388177/ns/health-cold_and_flu/

[liberal_at_heart]

266. don't use Zicam

When my family has a cold we use zinc supplements and we only use it for like two or three days tops. It works. We never have a cold more than about three days. We don't use Zicam. I have heard about the nasal spray damaging sense of smell as well.

[Sebastian Doyle]

269. Zicam IS zinc. That's why it worked

and it worked faster than supplements, because being absorbed through the nasal membranes is faster than taking "the long way" through the digestive system. People who had problems with the Zicam were using it wrong. It should be several hours between doses, and only three days or so, as with any zinc supplement.

I believe Zicam came under attack because it DID work, and the drug companies who make Sudafed and NyQuil didn't like that. Haven't had to buy any cold meds yet this year, but I hope it's still around in some form. If not the nose spray, then the pills that dissolve in your mouth. (never really liked the swabs)

[ipaint]

273. 130 consumers reported a loss of smell.

At the very least these drugs should be tested before landing on the drugstore shelves. Unless we just stop testing everything.

Which begs the question now who is the Pharma shill.

[liberal_at_heart]

275. good point

You make a good point about people not using it properly. People never really pay much attention to label directions on anything. People figure if a little is good then more must be better. Then they end up getting hurt.

[SidDithers]

272. The problem with Zicam is that it wasn't dilute enough to not do harm...nt

Sid

[JonQ]

262. I think it's a good idea

have life-saving medicine available for those who want it, and let the stupid or easily mislead people chose something else and remove themselves from the gene pool. They're happy, I'm happy, win win.

Just so long as they don't do it to their kids. I'm a big fan of letting adults do as they please to themselves but when they start killing their kids because of their idiocy then it's time to intervene.

[SidDithers]

270. Homeopathic "medicine" deserves nothing but ridicule...

and arguing with it's true believers is an exercise in futility. Their opinion can't be changed, because it's based on faith, not on logic or reason. Homeopathy, and it's supporters, should be mocked unmercifully.

And here's Mitchell and Webb to do just that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

Sid

[ipaint]

276. I agree. The more I read the more I am astounded people have

absolutely no skeptisism regarding the claims being made. I understand people are looking for alternatives but not one legitimate study proving anything?
PJ Myers certainly isn't a pharma shill.

"So again, what proof is there that Homeopathic remedies work? If there is proof, it should be in a peer-reviewed medical journal, right? Luckily, as a student at California State University, Fresno; I have access to many on line scientific journals. I used the MEDLINE (Silverplatter) server which indexes more journals in health and medicine than any other server at my school. I then used "Homeopathic" as a keyword and started reading the resulting abstracts from various journals.

First I was shocked to find out that there are 'medical' journals for alternative medicine! Such as the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, or the Journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy! All of these so called 'scientific' journals start with the assumption that Homeopathy is a working, proven science! I'll take this opportunity to state that if science starts with a bias - if it does not operate from a neutral, objective standpoint, then said 'science' is only worthless crap. It is worse than worthless - it can be dangerous!

The next thing that I found is that the standard 'neutral' medical, biological, and biochemical journals seem to also be doing research into Homeopathy.

Just from a curious browse through the these abstracts I found that if the Journal seemed 'iffy' to me, in that it used the words "Homeopathic" or "Alternative" in the journal title, then for the most part the Homeopathic remedies under test were seen to have value, or were determined to act positively.

Abstracts from all other journals were very emphatic in their results in that Homeopathic remedies do not work, or at best were indeterminant"


http://calladus.blogspot.com/2005/08/why-homeopathic-medicine-does-not-work.html


And it's not just about proof it's about protecting people from harm. If something protect people from swine flu then prove it and until you can don't go around telling people to self treat without a huge billboard sized disclaimer letting them know they are part of the grand experiment.

[stopbush]

278. Yep. I have no doubt that the people in this thread who believe in homoeopathy

also believe:

1. In alien abductions
2. In conspiracies, from JFK to 911
3. In ghosts
4. In religion

It's all part of the same delusion.

[closeupready]

319. I'm sorry - I just have to share this anecdote, since you are a dead ringer for her, in your hyperbo

I once worked on a boat in France - we cruised up the Saone river starting from Dijon (I left two weeks later when we got to Nancy) - anyway, the delightful old hippies who owned the boat were English ex-pats, and an unwed lady friend of their's (same age - I forget her name, let's say she was Agatha) also from England lived in the vicinity of town. The captain and his SO had their 15-year-old daughter come with, and one day before embarking on the cruise, their lady friend, daughter and I went into town to get comestibles. We made a sidetrack through some souvenir stand on the outskirts of town, and we went walking through this lovely little meadow - it was perfect, too perfect. Because it was then that Agatha chose to start talking hippie politics, somehow going on about McCarthyism, and then with a dead serious pokerface, told the girl about how - during the 50's - the United States then set up "concentration camps" for communists and socialists. I was stunned speechless, and it was clear as a temporary domestic, my opinion was completely irrelevant. I said nothing, but I thought at the time that it was quite obvious how insane she sounded.

I laugh about it now, just as I laugh at you and your hyperbole here. I would have put you on ignore, too, but then I wouldn't be able to enjoy the thread and all it's unintentional humor. thanks for that! :hi: :hi: :rofl:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

280. WTF? Seriously?

It's a blog. They get their money from advertising hits. Homeopathic bullshit generates those hits, same as penis enlargement ads.

[Atman]

286. A lot of the responses to this thread illustrate why we're hostage to corporate medicine

So many people here seem to believe that only patented drugs pushed by Big Pharma are "legitimate." Very enlightening. We want change...as long as we don't really change anything.

.

[Warren DeMontague]

289. Homeopathy is complete and utter bullshit. If you look at what it is, it's completely ridiculous.

This isn't about "alternative medicines", this is about sugar water.

[ipaint]

298. If change means I have to park skepticism, reason and science

at the door, no thanks.

[lildreamer316]

313. NIce to see REASON on this thread!! +1000!

It confuses me when people here actually espouse belief in products made by companies that have been proven to be run by the repug, corporate monied interests they say they so despise; and do not TRUST; otherwise. Very strange. Fruit of the poison tree is supposed to NOT contain poison?? Nice logical follow-through.

On edit: I don't believe in homeopathy; but I do believe in alternative remedies.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

326. It appears you've confused reason with loony conspiracy theories.

[LostInAnomie]

292. This is one of the greatest threads of all time!

It's done a magnificent job of separating the rational DUers from the woos.

[closeupready]

306. What's a woo?

I've seen that word tossed around here lately? Did someone on TV start it?

[LostInAnomie]

316. I forget the origins.

I've read it on here before though.

What it essentially means is a person that eagerly accepts supernatural, paranormal, pseudo-scientific, belief based, etc., explanations/solutions for problems. It's more of a generalization of a mind-set that goes beyond definition. You saw a bunch of them floating around when NASA "bombed" the moon, and they really come out of the woodwork anytime alternative medicine is questioned.

[billh58]

337. See this

definition:

http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Woo

:hi:

[joshcryer]

318. So true, if I used ignore it would be a perfect honeypot to acquire a new list.

[Jim__]

305. It sounds to me like they're giving them a forum as if they have a right to speak out.

If we suppress all speech we disagree with, our ideas will dry up and stagnate. The only reason to suppress the printing of bad ideas is that you believe the "rest of the people" are too stupid to be able to spot them.

[Javaman]

307. Okay, fine, then stop using aloe on burns. nt

[SidDithers]

311. Aloe is herbal, not homeopathic...

unless, of course, your talking about Aloe Socotrina, available in dilutions of 3X, 6X, 12X, 30X, 3C, 6C, 9C, 12C, 15C, 30C, 200C, 1M, 10M, CM, Q, and recommended for:

Relationships
Complementary: Sulphur; compare: Kali-bich.; Lycop.; Allium sat.
mind; intellectual faculties; impaired thinking; imbecility;
mind; aversions, dislikes; aversion to mental work;
head; pain, headache; cold applications;
head; pain, headache; pressing (see bursting, pulling); forehead; ;
head; pain, headache; pressing (see bursting, pulling); forehead; over eyes; ;
Headache alternates with lumbago, with intestinal and uterine affections
Aches above forehead, with heaviness in eyes, must partially close them.
Disinclination to mental labor
Redness of eyes with YELLOW vision
Compelled to make small during pain in forehead
Flickering before eyes
eye; heaviness;
Pain deep in orbits.
Cracking when chewing
Sudden explosion and clashing in left ear
Tinkling as of some thin, shivered, metallic globe in head.
Coldness of tip
Full of crusts.
Bleeding in morning on awakening
Marked redness of lips.
Lips cracked and dry.
Tasteless eructations
Taste bitter and sour
Dry, scrapy feeling.
Varicose condition of veins in pharynx
Thick lumps of tough mucus
abdomen; pain; cutting;
abdomen; bloated;
abdomen; flatulence;
abdomen; sensation of fullness;
abdomen; heat;
abdomen; pain; cutting; during stool; ;
abdomen; pain; cutting; before stool; ;
abdomen; pain; pressing; before stool; ;
abdomen; pain; cramping, griping;
abdomen; pain; before stool; ;
abdomen; noises from abdomen; gurgling; before stool; ;
abdomen; noises from abdomen; gurgling;
abdomen; heaviness;
abdomen; sense of weakness; as if diarrhoea would come on;
Pain around navel, worse pressure
Abdomen feels full, heavy, hot, bloated
Fullness in region of liver, pain under right ribs
Weak feeling, as if diarrhoea would come on
Pain in pit when making false step.
Nausea, with headache
Great accumulation of flatus, pressing downwards, causing distress in lower bowels
After eating, flatulence, Pulsation in rectum, and sexual irritation
Longing for juicy things
Colic before and during stool
Stomach; Aversion to meat
Sensation of plug between symphysis pubis and os coccyges, with urging to stool
Burning, copious flatus.
Pulsating pain around navel
rectum; involuntary stool; on passing flatulence; ;
rectum; fullness;
rectum; flatulence; during diarrhoea; ;
rectum; flatulence; during stool; ;
rectum; relaxed anus;
rectum; flatulence; offensive;
rectum; flatulence; loud; during stool; sputtering;
rectum; flatulence; loud;
rectum; flatulence; hot;
rectum; haemorrhoids;
rectum; haemorrhoids; external;
rectum; haemorrhoids; large;
rectum; pain; soreness; during stool; ;
rectum; pain; soreness; after stool; ;
rectum; pain; urge to stool, or urinate, but producing nothing;
rectum; pain; urge to stool, or urinate, but producing nothing; during stool; ;
rectum; paralysis (see inactivity); sensation of;
rectum; unnoticed stool; hard stool;
rectum; urging, desire to stool (see pain; urge to stool, or urinate, but producing nothing); after eating (see diarrhoea); ;
rectum; urging, desire to stool (see pain; urge to stool, or urinate, but producing nothing); when passing flatulence; ;
rectum; urging, desire to stool (see pain; urge to stool, or urinate, but producing nothing); after stool; ;
rectum; pain; soreness;
rectum; pain; burning; after stool; ;
rectum; haemorrhoids; constricted, blood cut off from haemorrhoids;
rectum; heat;
rectum; involuntary stool;
rectum; involuntary stool; night; stool hard;
rectum; itching;
rectum; pain; after stool; ;
rectum; pain; burning;
rectum; pain; burning; during diarrhoea; ;
rectum; pain; burning; after flatulence; ;
rectum; urging, desire to stool (see pain; urge to stool, or urinate, but producing nothing); during urination; ;
rectum; flatulence;
rectum; dysentery;
Jelly-like stools, with soreness in rectum after stool
A lot of mucus, with pain in rectum after stool
Hemorrhoids protrude like grapes; very sore and tender; better cold water application
Burning in anus and rectum
Constipation, with heavy pressure in lower part of abdomen
Diarrhoea from beer.
Urinary Organs.
Incontinence in aged, bearing-down sensation and enlarged prostate
rectum; skin and lining; excoriated (as if grazed, chaffed); from stool; ;
Lumpy, watery stool
Scanty and high colored.
rectum; constipation; insufficient, incomplete, unsatisfactory stool;
rectum; diarrhoea; after eating; ;
rectum; dragging, heaviness, weight; ;
Constant bearing down in rectum; bleeding, sore, and hot; relieved by cold water
Feeling of weakness and loss of power of sphincter ani
Sense of insecurity in rectum, when passing flatus
Uncertain whether gas or stool will come
Stool passes without effort, almost unnoticed
rectum; diarrhoea;
urine; copious;
urine; burning (includes hot);
Uterus feels heavy, cannot walk much on that account
Female; Bearing down in rectum, worse standing and during menses
Labor-like pains in loins; extend down legs
Climacteric hemorrhage
Menses too early and too profuse.
Winter coughs, with itching
Difficult respiration, with stitches from liver to chest.
Lumbago alternating with headache and piles.
Stitches through sacrum
Pain in small of back; worse moving
Lameness in all limbs
Drawing pains in joints
Soles pain when walking.
generalities; eating and food; after eating; ;
generalities; heaviness; internally; ;
generalities; sensation of plug; internally; ;:

http://abchomeopathy.com/avpot.php/Aloe

Homeopathy is nothing more than a scam. They're selling bottles of water for $7.59 each.

Sid

[Evoman]

310. I think people just confuse homeopathy and alternative or herb medecines.

A lot of the disagreement here stems from this misunderstanding.

Why are people talking about herbs, or aloe, or even acupuncture on a thread about homeopathy?

[SidDithers]

312. You're right...

but, in some cases, I don't think the conflation is unintentional. Some posters are using the credibility (?) of other CAMs to support the idiocy of homeopathy.

Sid

[Warren DeMontague]

334. Hell, I just got insulted upthread because I actually thought the topic of the thread was homeopathy

Silly, silly, silly, silly, silly me.

[billh58]

336. The current

custom among researchers is to use the term, "complimentary and alternative medicine" (CAM) as an all-inclusive reference to the unorthodox, but popular, practices of acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathy, naturopathy, and herbal remedies:

http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/abs/10.1525/sp.2005.52.1.38

And yet another perspective on the inclusion of prayer in the CAM category:

http://nccam.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2005_winter/prayer.htm

Having never received any treatments other than from a licensed medical doctor, I have absolutely no idea whether these alternative forms of healing are effective for some. I suspect that those who sincerely believe in CAM practices experience better results than those who do not.

[GliderGuider]

314. The tone of this thread brings to mind

the excesses I've seen for years on forums where atheists and religious fundamentalists get together for a "friendly" round of debate. Well done, everyone :-/