Why do so many get their panties twisted about "The Public Option"?

[bvar22]

The very best "Public Option" on the table (HR 3200) is indeed a "tiny sliver" (Obama) that will affect LESS than 5% of Americans (about 3%, CBO).

It will NOT be government run "like Medicare" (Obama), but will be administered by a "private" corporation, most probably a consortium of For Profit Health Insurance Corporations masquerading as "The Exchange".
http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/09/13/sullivan-publicoptionin3200unlikemedicare/

Since the "Public Option" will NOT be "government run", it will have none of the administrative cost savings that Medicare enjoys. It will be able to offer at best about a 10% cost saving.
Unless protected by legislation, the For Profit Health Insurance Corporations competing on "The Exchange" could use their massive size to undercut the Public Option, and could actually price their cut rate plans below the price of the Public Option, effectively killing it.

If the "Public Option" is really "Government Run", why won't I be able to buy it directly from the US Government?
Why will I be forced to but it from "The Exchange"?
Why does America even NEED "The Exchange"?
Obama tells us that "The Exchange" will let us "compare prices and plans", but anyone can already "compare prices and plans" on the Internet.
Its EASY. Just Google "Shop for Health Insurance". (51 Million hits)
https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/ehi/Alliance?allid=Goo18811&sid=COMPARE

The Public Option offered by "The Exchange" (NOT by the US Government) will be so unattractive that the CBO projects (and Obama agrees) that 4 out of 5 people FORCED to BUY Health Insurance on "The Exchange" will prefer to buy it from a For Profit Health Insurance Corporation.

The Public Option (as specified in HR 3200) will NOT "open the door to Single Payer" since it only further entrenches the precedent that Americans MUST BUY Health Insurance from a "private" entity (The Exchange) instead of the US Government. (Have you noticed NO ONE, Democrat or Republican talks about "opening the door to Single Payer" anymore?)

No, The Public Option we are being allowed to beg for really isn't worth the effort.
It is a "thin sliver" that will benefit very few (if any) Americans.

After studying what is really in HR 3200, I have quit calling and writing, begging The Democrats for THIS "Public Option". It is a handful of crumbs being thrown to the peasants for diversion while $BILLIONS of Dollars of PUBLIC MONEY is transferred to the For Profit Health Insurance Industry.

Americans DESERVE better.
America should DEMAND better.

[leftstreet]

1. "a handful of crumbs being thrown to the peasants for diversion"

You got that right.

This sleight of hand magic show keeps us from discussing real single payer.

Assholes

[Echo In Light]

17. +1

[madfloridian]

33. Sheep, idiots, and assholes.

Makes people feel so respected.

[LynneSin]

2. Because they are sheep and that was the message the pigs taught them to say

nuff said.

[VMI Dem]

6. Nice Floyd reference.

[LynneSin]

10. Thanks although I was thinking more of "Animal Farm" with that reference

Of course Floyd probably was too.

[madfloridian]

31. Good one....calling people sheep.

[Junkdrawer]

3. AMEN..."Public Option" has become an Orwellian Phrase...

Orwell knew and our leaders know that people don't read books - they read covers.

[bridgit]

9. I can see that page turning quite easily, "Representational Democracy...

has been replaced this day with a 'public option' supported solely by G4 text apps so go home be happy and shut up! The comfort you demanded is now mandatory."

[truedelphi]

29. Just as scary is how the Republicans on Baucus' Committee now use the word "reform"

To mean curtail or end.

And they are talking about "reforming" Medicare next.

Shame on this damn Administration! President Obama is not even going to "ask" that the Anti Trust exemption be stricken and inserted into this bill!

Why is it we have the Best Govenrment that Money Can Buy?

[glitch]

4. K & R #6 nt

[Kermitt Gribble]

5. K&R! The public option should be no less than

giving everyone th option to enroll in Medicare. We should settle for nothing less.

[DrDan]

14. bingo

[Orwellian_Ghost]

7. "Public option" is NOT single payer; it is a cynical deceit

The "public option" parrots never address the arguments made by, e.g., Physicians for a National Health Program (pnhp.org). Why do you think that is?


Public Plan Option in a Market of Private Plans
By David Himmelstein, M.D. and Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., M.P.H.:

The "public plan option" won't work to fix the health care system for two reasons.

1. It forgoes at least 84 percent of the administrative savings available through single payer. The public plan option would do nothing to streamline the administrative tasks (and costs) of hospitals, physicians offices, and nursing homes, which would still contend with multiple payers, and hence still need the complex cost tracking and billing apparatus that drives administrative costs. These unnecessary provider administrative costs account for the vast majority of bureaucratic waste. Hence, even if 95 percent of Americans who are currently privately insured were to join the public plan (and it had overhead costs at current Medicare levels), the savings on insurance overhead would amount to only 16 percent of the roughly $400 billion annually achievable through single payer -- not enough to make reform affordable.

2. A quarter century of experience with public/private competition in the Medicare program demonstrates that the private plans will not allow a level playing field. Despite strict regulation, private insurers have successfully cherry picked healthier seniors, and have exploited regional health spending differences to their advantage. They have progressively undermined the public plan -- which started as the single payer for seniors and has now become a funding mechanism for HMOs -- and a place to dump the unprofitably ill. A public plan option does not lead toward single payer, but toward the segregation of patients, with profitable ones in private plans and unprofitable ones in the public plan.

www.pnhp.org

Everyone knows that successful negotiations begin from a position greater than what one actually wants. Therefore, starting negotiations with "public option" instead of single payer means that the ultimate outcome will be less than even "public option."

[bvar22]

19. I have been searching for ANYONE....

...willing to discuss the "Nuts & Bolts" of the Public Option, or to answer these questions:

*What is The Exchange?

*Why do we need The Exchange?

*Who is The Exchange?

*How is The Exchange funded?

*Why can't I buy my "government run" Public Option directly from The Government?

I have been unable to get direct answers from The Democrats.
It seems even the Progressive Caucus members are unwilling to discuss this.
The text of HR 3200 (over 1000 pages) is very vague (purposely?) about these fundamental questions.

The ONLY credible organization I have been able to find that has any useful information about these questions is Physicians for a National Health Program.

http://pnhp.org/

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/09/13/sullivan-publicoptionin3200unlikemedicare/

I am hoping that some of the Public Option advocates at DU can give specific answers with references to the actual text of HR 3200,
or provide links to credible sites that discuss these issues specifically related to HR 3200.

I would LOVE to be proved wrong about my fundamental assumptions.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

42. Bump

[WolverineDG]

8. Because they're idiots who don't know any better

I've had argument after argument on FB about this, even though I've said I'd be willing to give them the choice of being gouged by a private insurance company that values money over lives......

:eyes:

dg

[madfloridian]

32. Sheep and idiots....Very nice.

[slipslidingaway]

11. knr nt

[AllentownJake]

12. Because the administration

Back in June went to all the Health care advocates and progressive institutions and sold them on a Public Option as a compromise only to pull the rug out from them when the bill got to the Senate.

[gateley]

13. K&R nt

[inna]

15. KR+11.

"crumbs being thrown to the peasants for diversion" is exactly right.


How they think they are going to get away with this travesty of a DEFORM (and why we are putting up with this crap) is absolutely beyond me.

It's just another transfer of wealth to the rapacious for-profit private industries, at the expense of the struggling working people who are going to be disproportionately hit by what is in effect outrageously regressive, MASSIVE back-door tax.

Seriously, I don't understand why We The People allow them to get away with this crap; we are THE ONLY industrialized country in the world that doesn't provide universal health CARE to ALL of its citizens. Forcing people to buy junk insurance that they can't afford has nothing to do with universal health care, it's a step backwards.

[inna]

16. some of the problems with "Public Option" -

from my post from 3 months ago: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/inna/24


unfortunately, it looks that "public Option" is DESIGNED to be nonviable -- or at best, uncompetitive.
Posted by inna in General Discussion: Presidential
Sun Jul 26th 2009, 09:49 AM


this "public option" is a total joke; a travesty actually.

there are so many problems with it that i don't even know where to start.

1) first of all, it's not an "option" - the name itself is completely misleading, because people will not be allowed to opt out of their private insurance (if they're lucky enough to have one)

2) amazingly, it is not even an option for the majority of those who are currently uninsured - they will be *forced* (literally, via mandates) into private plans

3) by 2019 (!), PO (public option) will cover only from 9 to at the most 11 million people; and it will not even kick in until 2013

4) the way it is designed can be best described as "health care apartheid" (i.e., inferior quality healthcare that provides only "essential", extremely limited benefits and the policy that can be - an will be - rejected by providers who chose to opt out of it)

5) extreme marginalization is inevitable (i.e., it will be populated by patients with the most serious illnesses who are considered the worst "rejects" and the worst "money drain" by insurance industry)...

6) such system is almost guaranteed to collapse by design... politically convenient to some ("In time, the public option, weighed down by this tax burden and unable to fully exercise bulk purchasing power, would collapse amidst a fiery congressional storm over the cost of the public option, thus legitimizing arguments that publicly-funded health care is a failed idea." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcy-winogr... )

7) now, insult to injury and an absolute travesty - the "reform" will be funded largely by MASSIVE, unprecedented and atrocious CUTS to Medicare (projected $500 BILLION cuts over the next decade), as well as hundreds of billions of cuts to other few remaining providers of social services, such as hospitals for the poor...

8) and guess what? -- you just can't make this shit up! -- in 2019, according to CBO, 36 million Americans will still be uninsured (as opposed to the current 47 million). i doubt that the CBO has the stats on the projected number of people who will be severely underinsured and/or paying exorbitant amounts of money for their coverage, but it is likely to be dozens of millions.


i'm sure i've missed some points, but the bottomline is that the only winners here are the insurance industry and health "care" corps... at this point, i'm afraid that this monstrosity of a "reform" doesn't even represent a first "little baby step" in the right direction, it actually may be a step backwards, in a wrong direction.

[bvar22]

21. I remember reading your post.

These issues are NOT being discussed in the public arena....or even given much attention at DU.


"Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle Dazzle 'em
Give 'em an act with lots of flash in it
And the reaction will be passionate
Give 'em the old hocus pocus
Bead and feather 'em
How can they see with sequins in their eyes?
What if your hinges all are rusting?
What if, in fact, you're just disgusting?
Razzle dazzle 'em
And they'll never catch wise!


Give 'em the old Razzle Dazzle
Razzle dazzle 'em
Give 'em a show that's so splendiferous
Row after row will crow vociferous
Give 'em the old flim flam flummox
Fool and fracture 'em
How can they hear the truth above the roar?
Throw 'em a fake and a finagle
They'll never know you're just a bagel,
Razzle dazzle 'em
And they'll beg you for more!


Give 'em the old double whammy
Daze and dizzy 'em
Back since the days of old Methuselah
Everyone loves the big bambooz-a-ler
Give 'em the old three ring circus
Stun and stagger 'em
When you're in trouble, go into your dance
Though you are stiffer than a girder
They'll let you get away with murder
Razzle dazzle 'em
And you've got a romance


Give 'em the old Razzle Dazzle
Razzle dazzle 'em
Show 'em the first rate sorceror you are
Long as you keep 'em way off balance
How can they spot you've got no talent
Razzle Dazzle 'em
And they'll make you a star!" ---Soundtrack from Chicago.

[area51]

18. Great post.

:thumbsup:

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Because people mean what the words mean

while the politicians think they can redefine 'public' and 'option' and call a turd a doughnut, the people still mean a freely selectable, non private, non profit alternative if they are to be mandated to buy products under this law.
The slight of hand might work for the time being, but health care is not the sort of thing that goes unnoticed in people's lives and budget plans. When they see that the doughnut is a turd, and priced like a lump of gold, they will most certainly take that out on those that made this bad law.

[Stand and Fight]

22. +1

Essentially calling people dumb is no way to win them over to your point of view.

[Generator]

23. Yes I have become aware of what you know

And it is crumbs and it is almost worthless. Fascinatingly enough-the Republicans, the Demo-Repubs(Blue Dogs) Rahm Emmanuel and even our president are either against it or not pushing it.

Which makes me believe it's something. Maybe I'm a fool-but if the most conservative are against this thing-then maybe just maybe it's a crack in the door. And right now it's the only crack.

I have read that it will give some competition to the insurance industries. There is none now. If there is some public option it can be tweaked. It can be made better. If this much energy is being put to fight against it on the right-it must be something. They aren't THAT clever to be roping us in. I know it's not the savior. But if Obama can't deliver us a fucking crumb then maybe some will wake up and see he's not worth supporting either-and they will support those that do support us.

[bvar22]

24. Kubiki Theater.

They need the appearance of fighting for something to maintain the illusion that The People have a voice.

It may even be more evil than that.
After a long, drawn out "battle", the Public Option WINS, The Democratic Party declares VICTORY in joyous celebration front of all the TV cameras.

The Designed to Fail Public Option finally kicks in AFTER the 2012 elections.
Americans realized they have been scammed.
The politicians ALL (Democrats & Republicans) get to say, "Well we TRIED Public Health Insurance, and it doesn't work in America." :patriot:

REAL reform gets postponed for another generation.
The ONLY thing Americans are left with is Mandatory Purchase of For Profit Health Insurance.

Now THAT would be just plain EVIL, like NAFTA.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[inna]

44. that is exactly what it looks like, unfortunately.

:(

[eridani]

25. Not possible to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

Do the math. Forced private insurance for me = $450 a month
Single payer premium = $125 a month.

[Jack Sprat]

26. What we are staring in the face

is the greatest private ripoff in human history. Following 2 public bailouts of the private financial sector, the corporations are plunging inside our chests and ripping out our intestines.

[krabigirl]

27. Because people actually do not want poor people to get govt assistance..at all :(

[bvar22]

28. Where are the Public Plan advocates?

Who is going to refute the specific claims I made in the OP?

Who is going to answer these specific questions?

*What is The Exchange?

*Why do we need The Exchange?

*Who is The Exchange?

*How is The Exchange funded?

*Why can't we buy our "government run" Public Option Health Insurance directly from The Government?

[madfloridian]

30. People not responding because this thread calls them sheep, idiots, assholes..

and many other names. All in one thread.

Why bother?

Once I see the words PNHP, I know that the public option is going to be condemned.

It does no good to argue. They are the ones harassing Dean at book signings, they are ones calling him a liar.

They are the ones who demand perfection or nothing.

Why the hell bother?

Baaaa Baaaa

[slipslidingaway]

34. Dr. Himmelstein is correct IMO...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8606842&mesg_id=8608167

Link - Howard Dean on the Ed Show and more...

"...What Obama's plan essentially does is give you the choice of whether you want to be in a single-payer or private insurance plan..."

Posted in the thread below back in June, but some people continue to distort the views of PNHP.

Interview on the Ed Show was during the time that SP advocates were trying to get a seat at the Senate round tables - Baucus had excluded them from participating. Ed asked Dean what he thought about SP being off the table, Dean said SP is Not off the table. Dean knows what the physicians were advocating for when they talk about SP, Medicare for All.

Why would he confuse the issue and lead people to believe that the public option is the same as SP or just like SP???

In addition he keeps referring to the public option as being like Medicare, but Medicare does not have to compete for the basic coverage with private insurance plans and started with millions of people in the plan which could then bargain for lower prices.

Why are people trying to discredit single-payer advocates? ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6164248&mesg_id=6164827


http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/?p=1204

"Dr. David Himmelstein says Dr. Howard Dean is lying about the Obama health care proposal.

Himmelstein is a founder of Physicians for a National Health Program and is an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School.

Dean is the former head of the Democratic National Committee and is making the television talk show rounds promoting Obama’s health care reform.

Himmelstein says that Dean is portraying Obamacare as something it isn’t.

It isn’t single payer – as Dean said it is.

And it doesn’t give Americans the option to opt into a single payer system – Medicare – as Dean said it does – most recently last week on Democracy Now..."

[madfloridian]

35. I love being called names for supporting a public option.

idiot, assholes, sheep....

Really nice at a Democratic forum.

Why bother to fight if your own party calls you names and treats you like a fool.

I have my insurance, hubby has his. We fought because we cared about those who did not. But we can't make a difference now, so we don't bother.

And most especially it is so nice to see the PHNP called Dean a liar. He is one who has fought a good fight and got nothing for it. At least he cared enough to bother.

Good job in this thread.

[madfloridian]

36. Oh, and good luck on getting single payer and shoving out the insurance companies.

I can't wait to see that happen.

[madfloridian]

37. Implying anyone who supports the public option is stupid and ignorant

Way to work together on health care.

Way to respect each other and those who worked for us.

[Desertrose]

38. So why aren't we demanding better??

We deserve universal single payer...lord knows we already pay for it.

I want healthcare, not wars.

[madfloridian]

39. Do you guys really mean the name-calling toward us?

Or is it just rhetoric? Sounds pretty serious to me.

Most forums are organizing to support the public option.

Democratic Underground is calling those who support it idiots, assholes, and sheep.

[eomer]

40. I haven't gone through this thoroughly, but the first part of it is not really correct.

It will NOT be government run "like Medicare" (Obama), but will be administered by a "private" corporation, most probably a consortium of For Profit Health Insurance Corporations masquerading as "The Exchange".
http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/09/13/sullivan-publicoptionin... /

Since the "Public Option" will NOT be "government run", it will have none of the administrative cost savings that Medicare enjoys. It will be able to offer at best about a 10% cost saving.
Unless protected by legislation, the For Profit Health Insurance Corporations competing on "The Exchange" could use their massive size to undercut the Public Option, and could actually price their cut rate plans below the price of the Public Option, effectively killing it.

With regard to HR 3200, the above is not really correct.

The Exchange is not the same thing as the Public Option. Rather, the Public Option is just one plan to be offered within the Exchange.

The Public Option WILL be government run in the normal sense of the phrase. Only certain administrative functions can be outsourced:

(A) Determination of payment amounts.—Determining (subject to the provisions of section 1878 and to such review by the Secretary as may be provided for by the contracts) the amount of the payments required pursuant to this title to be made to providers of services, suppliers and individuals.

(B) Making payments.—Making payments described in subparagraph (A) (including receipt, disbursement, and accounting for funds in making such payments).

(C) Beneficiary education and assistance.—Providing education and outreach to individuals entitled to benefits under part A or enrolled under part B, or both, and providing assistance to those individuals with specific issues, concerns, or problems.

(D) Provider consultative services.—Providing consultative services to institutions, agencies, and other persons to enable them to establish and maintain fiscal records necessary for purposes of this title and otherwise to qualify as providers of services or suppliers.

(E) Communication with providers.—Communicating to providers of services and suppliers any information or instructions furnished to the medicare administrative contractor by the Secretary, and facilitating communication between such providers and suppliers and the Secretary.

(F) Provider education and technical assistance.—Performing the functions relating to provider education, training, and technical assistance.

(G) Additional functions.—Performing such other functions, including (subject to paragraph (5)) functions under the Medicare Integrity Program under section 1893, as are necessary to carry out the purposes of this title.

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/ssact/title18/1874A.htm

All other functions of the public option will be the responsibility of the government and will be handled by government employees. I assume the reason that HR 3200 doesn't grant authority to hire employees is because the Secretary of Treasury already has that authority.

The functions assumed by the government include setting the premiums, assuming the risks, and all the functions of an insurance company that are not listed above.

Most importantly, the outsourced administrators will not stand to profit by denying coverage or claims. It is the government that is on the hook for the risk and the only profit to be made is by a company that is only providing administrative functions and is not in the core business of an insurance company.

Regarding the statement that the public option "will have none of the administrative cost savings that Medicare enjoys", this is a misleading statement at best. A large part of the savings of Medicare or any other government run plan over a private insurance plan is that there is no profit. Another one is that there is no need to pay CEOs and other executives multi-million dollar compensation. These savings will occur in the public option since the only part of it that is outsourced is administrative functions and the government is free to negotiate reasonable rates for those services or can even choose not to use them if they are too costly.

The OP seems to me an effort to sew FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) about the public option. Like most DUers, I'm not a fan of the public option first. I'm in favor of single payer. But I don't think there is any chance of getting single payer and I don't see how irrational and factually incorrect FUD about the public option is going to help us.

[many a good man]

41. Thank you n/t

[datasuspect]

43. because those of us in the US live in an uncivilized country