Photo: Chimpanzees in Cameroon gather to pay respects to an elder who has died

[BurtWorm]

Cameroon—At the Sanaga-Yong Chimpanzee Rescue Center, more than a dozen residents form a gallery of grief, looking on as Dorothy—a beloved female felled in her late 40s by heart failure—is borne to her burial.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/visions-of-earth/visions-earth-2009

[derby378]

1. Truly touching

To say that chimpanzees and bonobos are not so similar to humans is to do so out of sheer ignorance, willful or otherwise.

[HopeOverFear]

2. awww how touching

elephants do that also.

[Alameda]

3. Link doesn't work...it takes you to National Geographic home page

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

4. It's the correct link. Where it says visions of earth, there are thumbnails and this

photo is one of those thumbnails to click on.

[Ichingcarpenter]

5. Posted in the DU science forum over 2 days ago

But it is touching.


Link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=228&topic_id=57793&mesg_id=57793

[Maru Kitteh]

48. Some of us don't have the spare time required to monitor every forum of DU

[datasuspect]

6. one day they're mourning, the next they're saying no, before you know it they get a lawgiver

this how the planet of the apes started.

[yurbud]

35. ape shall not kill ape...ape shall not kill ape...

[TheCoxwain]

7. These Chimps have more empathy than the average Republican has for a

fellow member of its species.

[Gator_Matt]

99. Chimps routinely tear other chimps apart

Chimps can be extremely aggressive. One tribe will rip other chimps apart and eat them. They're very dangerous creatures, much like humans.

[okieinpain]

157. could not have been said better. n/t.

[fujiyama]

183. Yeah I saw that on Planet Earth

Made me realize humans haven't evolved that much.

[malaise]

8. Touching

:cry:

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Anthromorphizing.

They may simply be thinking "Well NOW what's for dinner?"

[vadawg]

10. bingo, thats what i thought as well, i doubt they are eulogizing the dead monkey..

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. Ummm... you called them the "M" word. n/t

[vadawg]

15. lol sorry great ape or hairy human (almost) if people prefer. :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. I think Hirsute Noble Elder is the only acceptable term. This is DU, after all. n/t

[tekisui]

14. Why do you doubt it?

Do they typically line up like that? I think you underestimate a chimps emotional maturity.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. They do when they're behind a fence. n/t

[rhett o rick]

90. Of course you don't. How sad for you. They are not monkeys. Are you a Christian by chance? nt

[vadawg]

94. guess you didnt read the other post then, and i would say im christian not that it makes any differe

[rhett o rick]

106. First of all they are chimpanzees and not monkeys, second I believe

the word Christianity should be capitalized. And fifth you seem to think you are better than a chimp. Maybe your God told you that?

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. "You seem to think you are better than a chimp."

Evidence of this is that the people are feeding, and conducting funerals for, the chimps.

We progressives bring a lot of the ridicule on ourselves.

Yes. Other than physical strength, I'm better than a chimp, and I think you might be too.

[Mixopterus]

117. Jeff has a point

Chimpanzees, while genetically similar, have very low levels of empathy and cooperation compared to humans.

By most accounts Elephants outrank Chimpanzees in this regard, and by quite a bit. Consider that.

[vadawg]

112. no im pretty sure i think im better than a chimp, so i value my life above the chimps

same as i value any human above a chimps or monkey or any other animal, and no my god didnt tell me that its pretty self evident even to the chimp who thinks he is the most important creature on the planet.

[roguevalley]

114. amazing how this turned into a shit storm when it was a beautiful

moment

[rhett o rick]

120. Yes I agree. And I am sorry if I detracted from that. nt

[DaveinJapan]

143. still monkeys. just like you and I. nt

[Arugula Latte]

17. Nope -- Many animals, such as chimps and elephants, have very sophisticated social systems

Elephants also mourn the deaths of members of their herd.

[laundry_queen]

26. Ravens/crows do also.

I was watching a special on it the other night. They flock to a tree near the dead bird, then all sit very still and give a moment of silence.

[Arugula Latte]

32. For ravens/crows to shut up even for a few seconds is amazing!

:)

[roguevalley]

116. ravens are my favorite bird. they sit on people's cars and rip off

their windshield wipers. I see them fly and dive bomb and fold their wings and fall and then take off again. they fly for the joy of it.

[seemunkee]

132. I saw this happen

A crow flew into a window and died in my side yard. A murder of crows lined up on my and my neighbors roof looking down and cawing. It was very creepy

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

23. My guess

My guess is that some of these chimps have a greater intellectual and emotional depth than what you have just displayed. You don't think primates can show grief in a social fashion? Try again...and keep telling yourself you are superior.

[Maru Kitteh]

52. +1 . . . You are exactly correct - and welcome to DU.

[Canuckistanian]

68. +1

Classic anthropogenic thinking.

It's well known that elephants display almost ritualistic traits in response to the death of a long time social member.

Why not our intellectual cousins?

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. We also know that chimps kill and eat the offspring of rivals.

They're behavior is interesting. Anthropogenic is the only kind of "thinking".

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199911/do-animals-think?page=3

[Canuckistanian]

134. Meaning what?

That chimps are not capable of learning successful strategies of survival?

I think that zoological science has proven that greater apes (humans included) are occasionally violent towards their own kind.

Is this some surprise to you?

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

142. total nonsequitar: I.O.W: So What?

Yes, their (not "they're"....please) behavior is interesting. They behave much like human beings, including the potential for violent atrocity. You prove my point, not yours. No one said they "are" human: the point is consciousness, cognition and social development. Your perception of what constitutes a threshold for acknowledgment of these factors is so limited as to be myopic.

[lumberjack_jeff]

163. a) Sorry about the apostrophe, but I still spell better than a chimp... or you. It's "non sequitur".

b) I haven't eaten any of my neighbor's offspring recently.

I offer these as evidence of my "greater intellectual and emotional depth".

So, you know... speak for yourself.

[Sinti]

174. +1 welcome to DU n/t

[Cetacea]

180. Welcome to DU.

Good point. Dolphin intelligence skeptics tend to use their occasional violent behavior toward smaller porpoises to avoid the fact that their brains have one more lobe than ours. lol

[fascisthunter]

172. Hippos do as well, if I'm not mistaken

there is still so much we can learn from our relatives in the wild.

[rhett o rick]

91. +1. Some people think God made them the smartest animal. Some posting here disprove that

theory.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Humans are the only animal with the capacity for passive-aggressive snark. n/t

[snooper2]

146. ROFL

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


And we are the only ones who can use emotion icons as well :rofl:

[OneGrassRoot]

148. +1 again....and welcome....

I'm amazed how the most innocent, heart-felt stories can result in bashing and arguing here.

But, welcome anyway! ;)

[tekisui]

25. Your ignorance is showing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. You're right. It's "AntrhoPOmorphizing" Thanks.

Gathering to pay respects? Which one read the eulogy?

[TheCoxwain]

57. Thanks for that brilliant insight into intricacies of anthropomorphology

Wow ..that was breathtaking !!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Double word score. Yay! n/t

[tekisui]

77. I don't see it as anthropomorphizing.

It is recognizing the species as self-aware. What we may see as "a human quality" is evidenced as not unique to humans.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

27. Jane Goodall documented a case of one chip dying from grief

His name was Flint and his mother babied him too much after the death of his younger sibling. As a result he remained strongly emotionally bound to her rather than going out on his own and starting his own family.

When his mother died Flint stopped eating and interacting with others and fell into a clinical depression. Then his immune system began failing and he died within a month of losing his mother.

I have no idea what the chimps in the photo were expressing, but I wouldn't assume they didn't understand the fact that one of their community members was dead.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. "wouldn't assume they didn't"?

I hate to break it to you, but they're critters.

I'm not buying into the assumption that the photo represents a monkey funeral.

[tekisui]

40. Do you think that humans are the only self-conscious animals

on the planet?

I don't. Evidence suggests that isn't the case.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. I wonder if dolphins watch us and think our pathetic attempts at echolocation are cute. n/t

[depakid]

83. Actually, they probably do- since as anyone who's snorkled around dolphins will tell you

if you make certain noises through your snorkle, they'll come swim with you.

[Ignis]

122. +1, but ...

It's probably because we're saying something like, "Your Dolphin momma wears combat boots." ;)

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. "So long, and thanks for all the fish"

We have no idea what non-human animals are thinking, nor can we understand their ethical framework because we don't have a shared point of reference. If we try, we only project our own experiences.

A dolphin, if it had the inclination to wonder about such things, would have no idea what motivates people.

[Cetacea]

178. More like "I'll be friendly because you people are dangerous."

We actually have more in common with dolphins than any other mammal, brain-wise. In fact, some researchers have referred to them as "Humans of the Sea".

And many animals display empathy. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

[BurtWorm]

41. You're using 'monkey' incorrectly.

As I'm sure you know. ;-)

Do you think these chimps are standing near each other and looking at the dead chimp with nothing but food on their minds? Does she make them hungry?

The point is, while you're absolutely right to say we don't know what's on their minds, we do have clues. It's as foolish to assume "critters" are incapable of awareness of death as it to think of this as a "monkey funeral."

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. Unlike the rest of the posters on this thread, I have no freakin' idea what they're thinking.

Apes certainly have social behavior, but the DU tendency to attribute every animal's behavior to human virtues makes me a little nuts.

[BurtWorm]

56. Should we ignore any evidence of unusually empathic-seeming behavior from other species on DU?

The same impulse that inspired the photographer to take that photo, and National Geographic to run this photo, and PZ Myers of Pharyngula to link to the photo, is working here. I shouldn't speak for anyone but myself, but I am interested in evidence of behaviors that seem to be uniquely human in other animals--especially our nearest relatives, the chimpanzees. It seems wrong-headed to want to look the other way when shown something like this--to want to denigrate interest in this. I do believe a certain caution is always called for. Calling this a "funeral" for instance, or a "ritual" seems to go too far. But to ignore that this photo captures some kind of "interest" for lack of a better word, that resembles grief (which it admittedly may not be) seems like misplaced or overdone skepticism.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. It's undoubtedly an interesting area of study.

It is almost as interesting as the compulsion among humans to attribute every animal with human motivations. Anthropomorpization is the reason that we worry about one endangered animal but not another.

The social behavior of apes does in some ways suggest parallels to our own behavior, and helps to understand ours. But the response here invites ridicule.

[Uncle Joe]

87. As this is an animal rescue center, I would imagine those chimpanzees are fed and thus hunger

would be a minimal motivation, if any at all for their interests.

If they were taught sign language you might have a better idea as to what they were thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqTUG8MPmGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqTUG8MPmGg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf7ZpdvnoEE&NR=1

[Lone_Star_Dem]

42. I was wrong. According to the accounts of those who were present they were mourning her.

http://www.all-creatures.org/stories/a-inloving.html


Nama sat beside Dorothy in death, touching her gently and not wanting to leave her side. Her son Bouboule, like most of the other chimpanzees, grieved openly. Alpha male Jacky fell on his back and screamed in distress, until he finally accepted the comfort of some of the others.

We had a funeral service for Dorothy and many people from the villages, including the high chief of our seven villages, came to pay their respects. No one seemed to wonder for a second whether a funeral service was appropriate for a chimpanzee. They walked to the camp from their villages after learning of Dorothy’s death, without being invited.

We buried Dorothy beside the enclosure where she lived and beside the tomb of her friend Becky. All the chimpanzees in her family came to watch and mourn with us. When we brought her to the grave site, they asked to see her again, so I took her body close for them to see her a final time. None of them left until the burial was finished.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. "they asked to see her again"

There's a definitive and credible source.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

53. Dorothy used hand gestures to convey her desires

I'm familiar with her and her case but not all of the other chimps in her rescue family. However, if she were socialized enough to point at what she wanted and make bring me that and open that gestures, why would it be a stretch to believe the others in her family would be?

[Maru Kitteh]

65. I know when my cat wants me to throw his toy and play fetch

I know when one of them wants me to open the window. I know when they want some water from the faucet. I know when one of them is having a bad day. When Maru's buddy gets shut in the closet he will come get me and cry till I go set him free.

I'm going to stop here because it's a really, really long list. If you and an animal actually know each other it's not that hard. You find a way to communicate just the way people of differing languages do.

[NashVegas]

49. For a "Lumberjack," You Don't Seem To Spend Much Time Outdoors

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. I'm a nocturnal lumberjack. n/t

[whopis01]

140. So you work all night and you sleep all day?

Well - as long as you are a lumberjack and you're ok.

[Ignis]

159. I've been really trying hard to avoid posting that. (nt)

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. I work a Michael Palin schedule.

You gotta get up early to catch those Scotch Pines and little whomping rule trees.

[Canuckistanian]

71. You know, a century ago, they used that same rationale for Blacks

As in, "Oh, don't worry about killing their children. They don't have feelings like we do"

Please, educate yourself.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. Are you saying that chimps are human beings?

Of course you are, because otherwise, your analogy would be completely stupid.

[Canuckistanian]

74. I'm saying that our attitudes change as we learn more

And that evidence is gathering that social animals have emotions just as we do - whether we recognize it or not.

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. Humans have emotions because we are social animals.

A death of a contributing member of the pack/flock/tribe lessens our ability to survive. We evolved instincts to look out for the wellbeing of other individuals because it contributes to our survival prospects.

Animals also exhibit xenophobia and hate because, similarly, it contributes to the survival prospects of their offspring.

Chimps aren't "like people". Chimps and people are like the first animal which realized that herding improved survival.

[Canuckistanian]

135. So aren't xenophobia and hate emotions?

You seem to be defeating your own argument that chimps are "just critters", incapable of emotions that would directly threaten their survival.

After all, outside groups can contribute to a healthy gene pool, thus ensuring a better chance at survival.

Wouldn't xenophobia contribute to their earlier demise?

[lumberjack_jeff]

139. I don't doubt that they have what we understand to be emotions.

Where I disagree is the anthropomorpizing assumption that they have the same emotions for the same reasons as the individual seeing the photo.

"well NOW what's for dinner" was tongue in cheek, meant to make light of the (imho) silly claim that they were there to "pay respects".

I don't doubt that some of the chimps in the photo are experiencing some mixture of anxiety, curiosity and loss.

We social critters have evolved those emotional states to enhance the survival prospects of our offspring.

[Canuckistanian]

161. OK, I can understand that

I think that the whole human "pay respect" ritual is BS also.

Either you were fond of the deceased or not.


Thanks for the clarification.

:hi:

[girl gone mad]

138. Wow. I can't believe that in the yearl 2009, someone is actually..

making such an uninformed argument about basic animal behavior. We have piles and piles of evidence that directly contradicts the points you are trying to make.




BERLIN - A gorilla at a zoo in the German city of Muenster is refusing to let go of her dead baby's body several days after it died of unknown causes.

Allwetter Zoo spokeswoman Ilona Zuehlke says the 3-month-old male baby died on Saturday but its 11-year-old mother continues to carry its body around. Zuehlke says such behavior is not uncommon to gorillas.

Zuehlke says the mother "is mourning and must say goodbye." The mother gorilla is named Gana.

In the wild, gorillas sometimes keep a dead baby for weeks.

[Cetacea]

176. Thank you. And if people need proof, they should google "spindle cells".

But here is a related link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

184. An excerpt

"While it is difficult to know for certain that there is cross species empathy, it is hard to argue against it."
His ideas have met with some controversy in the scientific community, but many admit it is difficult to argue that animals do not share many of the psychological qualities previously only attributed to humans.
Professor Frans de Waal, a primate behaviourist at Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, said: "I don't believe animals are moral in the sense we humans are – with well developed and reasoned sense of right and wrong – rather that human morality incorporates a set of psychological tendencies and capacities such as empathy, reciprocity, a desire for co-operation and harmony that are older than our species.
"Human morality was not formed from scratch, but grew out of our primate psychology. Primate psychology has ancient roots, and I agree that other animals show many of the same tendencies and have an intense sociality."

[roguevalley]

119. personally, we don't give animals credit. There is so much to primates

that to deny what is in front of us is to elevate ourselves out of the animal kingdom, which for me would be awful. The more I learn about people, the more I love animals. RIP, Dorothy dear.

RV, whose mom was named Dorothy

[Sinti]

175. +1

It enables us to kill things by making them separate, different. If they have consciousness as we know it, then it becomes much more difficult to attach the "other" label.

[redqueen]

28. Wow... really? (nt)

[lunatica]

29. Lady Jane Goodall has scientific evidence to the contrary

And wolves also mourn their dead, even if it's the lowest wolf in the pecking order.

[Ignis]

80. Sorry, evidence that contradicts our view can't be accepted.

We hypothesize that chimps are "just dumb animals" FIRST, laud data that supports our hypothesis SECOND, and launch personal attacks against those who disagree or who propose alternative interpretations THIRD.

Q.E.D. :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. "Our"? Heh.

It's not the people rushing to the passionate defense of the nobility of the people-ish animals that're getting piled upon here.

And you're misapprehending current events;
1) Look at the furry animals!
2) They're happy/sad/angst-ridden/conflicted/guilty/grieving, and are thus conducting a ritual with strong human western-civilization overtones in response.
3) ... I know this, because I would be.

Amateur animal psychologists aren't trying to understand animal behavior, they're trying to attribute those behaviors to human virtues and cultural norms.

[Ignis]

98. Your fantasy of my thought process is just that: a fantasy.

And I'm not sure which "amateur animal psychologists" you're lambasting, but I'm a former graduate student in physical anthropology with more than 5 years of roll-up-your-sleeves-research in primatology under my belt. I don't work in that field anymore, but I do follow the associated scientific literature rather closely and without an unwieldy anthropomorphic bias.

So I'll just wait here until you're done jousting with those straw giants, Mr. Quixote. :hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. One suspects you follow that literature better than you've followed this thread.

[Ignis]

105. Are you kidding? This thread is a trainwreck.

The only sane response is as follows:

:popcorn:

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. There's some irony in it.

A thread dedicated to how closely chimps model our more noble behaviors is a better case study of the opposite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wGVMPUt9VU

Discussion boards lose something in the translation. You can't hear the vocalizations, brush rattling and chest thumping.

[Ignis]

109. GD warning sign ahead:

[lumberjack_jeff]

113. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[BurtWorm]

145. I actually think it's you who is trying to attribute something to behaviors you don't understand

based on your evidently strong bias against anthropomorphising. It's a great idea to be careful about anthropomorphising when talking or thinking about other species' behavior, especially if you're trying to make more than casual observations. I think most people responding to this thread are making casual observations. But humanity is our frame of reference. Of course we're going to look for recognizable behaviors in other species. We should be careful not to equate the meanings of those behaviors with our own, anymore than we should equate the meanings of sounds from other languages with similar sounds from our own. But sometimes a behavior that looks human, especially in chimp and other primate societies, might actually be deeper than human. If you rule out all anthropomorphising or anything that has the slightest odor of anthropomorrphising, you may be missing some critical signs.

[hunter]

158. We miss many more "critical signs" anthropomorphizing the complex behaviors our fellow humans.

If we glanced upon ourselves with the same scientific and critical eye with which we attempt to study animal behaviors we'd learn many things, quite a few extremely unpleasant and disturbing things, I'm certain.

A gun or a missile is just another way of throwing rocks... baboons throw rocks too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. Evidence of our collective inability to judge the motivations of chimps...

... is best demonstrated by any post in this thread containing the phrase "I bet you think...".

If we are so abysmally bad at understanding the motivations of our fellow humans, why should we think we know what another species is thinking?

[BurtWorm]

169. So give up

trying to understand why these chimps are standing there in a group staring at a dead member fo the community? Just look away to avoid the temptation to read any significance into this photo, lest we read the wrong significance into it?

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. If I didn't find this fun, I might take your advice.

So, so, many mice.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_w7ilNrFnHH4/SOgER0SMWMI/AAAAAAAAG2E/HYEvf2TscM0/s320/cat+playing+with+mouse+2.jpg

[TwilightGardener]

50. LOL. I agree--animals don't "pay respects". I assume they're

smart enough to be curious over a dead chimp body in their midst, but that's about it.

[BurtWorm]

144. By "pay respects" I only meant they were spending time looking again at a dead community member.

Of course they weren't raising the glass, or taking up a collection, or reminiscing, which are all human activities. But if spending time looking at someone who has died is "paying respects" then these chimps are paying respects.

[TwilightGardener]

181. Understood.

[dem mba]

69. what's next?

are you going to tell me those crazy cats don't really want to haz cheezeburger?

Seriously though, I think you're right and wrong. Right in the fact that humans tend to place their own complex emotions into the minds of beasts (see the documentary Grizzly Man for a GREAT look into this) but wrong because animals DO have many of the same social behaviors as man.

I won't debate this specific instance because I have no damn idea, but my point is that we tend to simultaneously over- and underestimate animal's psychologies and behaviors at times.

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. True.

But more to the point, we stop seeking to understand animal social models once we've found a way to explain them in an anthropomorphic sense.

Look, it's a funeral! They're so cuddly-wuddly.

We then find it inexplicable when the females eat the offspring of competitors.

They're animals first, and the fact that we exhibit some of the same behaviors is an interesting reflection on human animal heritage.

[Sinti]

177. Are we Gods?

"They're animals first, and the fact that we exhibit some of the same behaviors is an interesting reflection on human animal heritage."

We are animals, mammals, primates. Why do you call this a heritage. Can we really know what/how/if animals feel things as we do? We are animals, nothing more, nothing less than our furry brethren. When did science forget that?

[DavidDvorkin]

76. Right you are

They may be recognizing that one of their own is dead and be feeling grief at that. Many of us have seen such behavior in our pets. But the idea that they're "paying their respects to an elder" is absurd.

[BurtWorm]

79. It was a poor choice of words, perhaps

I didn't mean to suggest that they were doing anything more than "rubbernecking," as another poster put it, at the dead body of one of their group. It's still interesting that they seem to have congregated for some purpose related to the death of the female elder--just to look at the body, if that's all they're doing, still suggests they're aware of something different about her state. It's interesting, to say the least, to see how members of another species react to death. That's all I meant to convey. Admittedly, I may have taken a short cut and used a too-human metaphor to describe this unusual behavior.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. Social animals undoubtedly fall into distress when one of the group dies.

Dogs, elephants, apes.

Survival needs suggest several good explanations for this behavior, none of which require a human-cultural explanation.

When I see this, I reflect on human behavior, and why our typical behavioral responses are so much like other animals - instead of the other way 'round.

It isn't that apes are so advanced, it's that we're unconscious products of our animal instincts.

[BurtWorm]

104. Of course. That's why this is interesting--to see our behavior mirrored back by other species.

This sort of thing--including all the instances of violent, aggressive, anti-social behavior other apes exhibit--can't help but make you think of the thinness of the walls separating us from the other species.

[LeftHander]

81. We always do that...look what we did with the Republicans...

We actually make the mistake...we think they are people with feelings and conscious thought!

[nolabear]

82. Having worked with wildlife, I had access to chimps and people who worked with them.

It's not anthropomorphizing. They're as individual as people are in their emotional connectedness but they absolutely, definitely mourn the death of someone who means something to them. They understand loss and grief, as well as rage, greed, deception, trust, and a host of emotions. No, they are not just like we are by any means, but they're a lot closer than most people think.

[EFerrari]

84. Chimps do mourn. n/t

[Bonobo]

108. 100% wrong.

When I have a question about lumberjacking, I'll ask you.

In the meantime, trust me when I say that they are mourning.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. ROFL

CHIMPS ARE NOT BONOBOS!!!!

[Bonobo]

127. YES, BUT THEY ARE VERY CLOSE!!! nt

[BurtWorm]

128. This wisdom brought to you by a guy who called these chimps 'monkeys!'

:spray:

[donheld]

136. -1

[LanternWaste]

141. Which seems a much lesser sin than human pride

"Anthromorphizing (sic)"

Which seems a much lesser sin than human pride. We may simply be thinking "Well, they're ONLY animals."

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. and all the research being done shows that Humans are NOT the only species

capable of identifying the self, or of deep emotion.

I am sure you will accuse the scientist of anthropomorphizing, but we humans ARE ANIMALS... and other ANIMAL of the higher order are capable of feeling emotion, and of having a sense of self.

This research usually comes at a price for some humans. To realize we are PART OF NATURE and not ABOVE nature is really a shocker.

[skipos]

160. Just curious... not interested in bickering

Do you think most (or any) animals appreciate life? While DU can be a little animal crazy, I think most humans don't want to give most animals any credit for having feelings like we do. I think it is easier to justify eating them that way. Personally, I think there is so much evidence to suggest that animals appreciate life. What do you think about behavior like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbskV44lZfc ?

[lumberjack_jeff]

166. I'm reminded of a line from the x-files.

Agent Mulder asks the attractive entomologist why she likes bugs. "Because they metabolize, procreate and respirate, and unlike people, they don't try to kid themselves that there's something more."

Our emotional repertoire was formed by social evolution. All of our social behaviors are based on a fundamental need to create, nurture and protect offspring. Those same social forces are at work, in lesser degrees in all other social animals.

Chimps don't have feelings like we do. Chimps and humans have feelings like the first shrew-like animal which realized that they had better defense against dinosaurs when one stood watch.

We only differ by degree... and an arbitrary need to create metaphysical explanations for it.

People eat meat because that's what our teeth are made to do.

[skipos]

168. So what about the behavior in the video?

And all the other cases of altruism in animals?

And as for "people eat meat because that's what our teeth are made to do," which is a different subject. My penis and lifelong supply of sperm was made to impregnate as many females as possible. If I knock up every female in your family, would you be ok with that? Probably not. But why not? That is, after all, what we were "made to do."

[lumberjack_jeff]

170. Group self-preservation creates the need for altruism, remorse, and anxiety over loss.

Yes, that is what you biologically were made to do. But it's also what a few million years of social evolution compels me to prevent, and also confronts strong social pressures within your tribe.

[skipos]

182. There is a need for as hippo to save an impala or a dolphin to save a human?

How does that fit within "self preservation?" Seems quite the contrary.

[Cetacea]

179. It's not anthromorphizing.

Anthropomorphizing is gradually becoming a useless term the more we learn of animal behavior. And the recent discovery of "human" spindle cells in elephants, whales, chimps, et al has enormous implications pointing tor wards human-like emotional qualities in other animals.

[Jeroen]

11. Dorothy looks peaceful. Very touching.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

20. Dorothy spent 25-years living with a chain around her neck before she was rescued

There was another chimp tethered near her, but they were kept too far apart to touch one another. Touching is very important to a chimps mental well being. Finally in 2000 she and the other chimp (Nama) were rescued and taken to Sanaga-Yong Chimpanzee Rescue Center.

She had spent the majority of her life alone on a neck chain and had never had the chance to become a mother. While she was at the rescue center she adopted an orphan son (Bouboule), and spent the last years of her life experiencing motherhood.

I like to think she had finally found happiness and peace in the end.

[Jeroen]

124. That is wonderful to know

[Shell Beau]

12. I think it is beautiful.

[ThatsMyBarack]

22. Me, too!

K&R

[Occam Bandage]

16. I wasn't aware chimpanzees had death rituals.

I thought the earliest known example of a meaningful death ritual was Neanderthal man. Do chimpanzees have mourning rituals, or are they just lining up to see what the humans are doing to Dorothy?

[BurtWorm]

21. I don't know if 'death ritual' is the right term.

They do seem to be very interested in the dead chimpanzee. They don't seem to be doing anything besides gathering to look on her. Do they gather to look on at live chimps lying covered? Or are they aware that something is different about Dorothy? Are they familiar with the idea that their associates die, and that has happened to Dorothy? We don't know. But it certainly looks like they're conscious of what has happened to this chimp. It even looks like they're consoling each other.

[Helga Scow Stern]

30. I saw some water buffalos and lions engaged in what looked like

a death ritual when I was in Tanzania 20 years ago. The lions had killed a buffalo the night before, and the next morning, a huge circle of water buffalo formed, single file, around the dead buffalo. They spent hours bellowing together and in unison in this circle. The lions were watching at a distance, almost as if they were also taking part. Once in awhile, one of the male lions would get up and roar loudly at the buffalos, and they would bellow back. It was really something to see! It made me wonder if the need for ritual --some kind of group commemoration of major events, like death-- is innate and deeply embedded in us all.

[xchrom]

18. very touching and not a little eerie.

there have been other observations of chimps mourning the passing of a family member or beloved troop member.

[leveymg]

19. We are not truly alone on this planet in our ability to grieve.

Anyone who has dogs knows that.

[Gman2]

24. Why this matters so much!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6808294&mesg_id=6808294

[Soylent Brice]

31. thank you for sharing.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

33. Amazing photo

Off to the greatest page.

[Freeatleast]

34. Unbelievable

I was very moved by this photo.

[joeybee12]

39. Apparently Republicans evolved into chimpanzees...because doesn't

evolution make a species smarter?

These are wonderful animals...this is a tuoching photo.

[Vinnie From Indy]

43. You think that is something, you should have been at the wake!

Oy!

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. LOL!

Bartender! Another round!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. eulogizing?

Or rubber necking?

[BurtWorm]

58. Ribber necking for sure.

Eulogizing involves words, so definitely not that.

[Ignis]

153. They're working their way up to a eugoogly.

But that takes some serious grey matter, so don't hold your breath!

[skip fox]

55. Why do we eat animals if we don't have to?

So much goes on in all forms of conscious life, yet humans believe their existence is so much richer than any other. Each form is as precious to itself as we are to ourselves.

Post-humanism looks at the world not with the human in the center. A Copernican mental-cultural shift.

How many lives to support one life?

[vadawg]

59. reason number one: animals taste real good grilled

number two: its a lot of bang for the buck, big animals especially have a lot of yummy meat on them...
number three: you cleverly throw a funeral for the last monkey/crow/cow you killed and the rest of the family will attend making it easier to ambush them...

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Damn good idea.

I have a new idea for a duck call.

(loudly) "we are gathered here to mourn the passing of Daffy" :rofl:

[FlyingSquirrel]

96. You don't have to keep talking.

You've already opened your mouth and removed all doubt.. anything more is excessive.

[skip fox]

75. Typical reactions. Much like a Southern plantation owner on slavery

150 years ago.

[vadawg]

78. lol okay, but as far as i know animals taste good, not sure about what the plantation owner thinks

or is that just some crazy bullshit comparison made by you that made sense in your meat deprived mind but now that you have posted it you regret....

[skip fox]

150. From whence the rabid reaction?

Hmmmm.

[vadawg]

154. sorry the rabid reaction comes when someone makes the stupid argument that animals

equal human slaves, for some reason at that point my brain is busy laughing at the dumb ass argument...

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. ROFL

:rofl:

[Rebubula]

61. Personally...

...I only eat meat to make sure that the fine owners of Five Guys Burgers and Omaha Steaks are able to send their kids to a good school.


Mmmmmm....Tasty, tasty murder.....

[flvegan]

85. Asking that question on DU

is an exercise in futility. No matter how you present it, no matter what logic you use.

[JanMichael]

165. No joke. Old habits die hard.

I don't get it personally. When I ate meat I didn't freak out when vegetarians made statements about the treatment of animals and eating meat. I didn't talk about how great it was to eat steak tartar or rip a chickens wings off to fry them. I didn't joke about eating bunnies even though I'd eaten rabbit. I didn't do that because it's puerile garbage.

Now as a vegetarian I make a comment about the treatment of animals and the issues of meat and people have cows...literally - asshole cows. They can't take criticism or reason or a simple argument with out the stereotypical meat eater insults.

Pretty disgusting.

[snooper2]

149. So, say all humans go pure vegetarian

And it's a crime to kill any anything with a brain. What are we going to tell this guy?

Hey dude, you are going to have to put that gazelle back.
Ah man, I just wanted a taste...I'm tired of eating these weeds!
I said drop that gazelle!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Ignis]

151. "all humans go pure vegetarian" + picture of a lion = FAIL

:)

[snooper2]

152. hey, we are going for animal equality right!

applies across the board to all species :)

[Ignis]

155. I've never heard of the AE movement, only the AR one.

But perhaps you're on the bleeding edge? :)

[flvegan]

167. Guess what, chilly...you're not a fucking lion

and human rules/laws don't apply.

STUPIDest point to be made supporting eating animals.

[winyanstaz]

62. That is so sad and touching...

This just proves even more that animals have feelings too. (I always knew they did..even when I was a small child)
I think some animals have more love and caring in their hearts than many human beings sometimes.

[Ignis]

63. This shouldn't suprise anyone following recent discoveries:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6775301

[Tumbulu]

70. Thanks for posting

Sorry to read so many posts from folks who don not think that animals are capable of complex emotions. How sad.

I am grateful that in the end of her life she knew happiness and comfort. Thanks to all the volunteers who help this organization and one's like it out.

[sabrina 1]

86. Those posts appear to be from humans lacking in the ability

to experience complex emotions themselves. There are aberrations in every species, but in general, humans who have not been warped somehow, can and do feel compassion for others, and for animals. Whenever I see someone who does not have that ability, I wonder what caused them to become that way. Generally that lack of compassion is found among rightwingers.

This is a beautiful story and I have no doubt that animals grieve. Why else would animal mothers cling to their dead babies eg?

I'm glad this chimp was rescued and had some years to experience kindness before she died.

[Ignis]

103. Well...I wouldn't go that far.

It's not an easy process, but humans can be taught to review data of similar activities across multiple species without interjecting the superiority and exclusivity of their own. Enculturation is a powerful force, and not one that most of us can quickly or easily overcome in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Surprisingly, the "specialness" of humans vs. other animals seems to be most often (and most loudly) promoted from the two extremes of the religious spectrum: Those who believe in fundamentalist materialism (aka Scientism), and those who believe in fundamentalist creationism.

Whodathunkit? :shrug:

[Uncle Joe]

88. There are some outstanding pics on that link.

Thanks for the thread, BurtWorm.:thumbsup:

[rhett o rick]

95. Thanks for posting. Do chimps bury their dead? nt

[hunter]

110. Cimpanzees HAVE THE SAME emotions we do.

What's so hard to understand? Human emotions didn't arise when the Creator breathed life into Adam; these emotions go far,far back in our evolutionary history.

It's entirely UNREASONABLE to believe that chimp emotions differ in any measurable way from human emotions.

These chimps may not understand the human ceremonies surrounding the death of friends and family, but they are sad and they gather together for exactly the same reasons we do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. The other way of looking at it.

Humans are sad and gather together upon death in the family for exactly the reason chimps do; we fear that the pack and our offspring might be less likely to survive in the uncertain future. Reestablishing group solidarity helps minimize that risk.

[Ignis]

123. That overlooks morphological differences.

I'm certainly willing to posit that humans and our related primate cousins share a lot of the same emotional cores, but several hundreds of thousands of years of bipedal locomotion, dietary changes, and increasingly complex language use has certainly caused our brains to diverge from the common ancestor that we share with chimps.

Perhaps it would be more helpful to posit that humans and chimps share many emotions, but without identical brain chemistry, it would be hard to believe that we share all emotions.

[hunter]

129. The basic emotional framework is shared by all social mammals.

Chimps and humans are similar enough that it's very unlikely the "brain chemistries" affecting emotional states are measurably different. Elephants and dolphins may experience emotions in a slightly different way since our common ancestors are further back, but I'm guessing we'd feel pretty much at home in their brain chemistries also.

As far as I'm able to ascertain the only real difference between us and other social animals is our storytelling. Even with this storytelling our technological prowess did not begin to accelerate until we began to keep more and more of our thoughts and memories outside our heads in our writing and art. Before the innovation of writing and art our increased intellectual abilities developed hand in hand with our toolmaking abilities in a fairly linear fashion.

But there's no reason to believe our art and technology is anything special in the universe. Storytellers and toolmakers such as ourselves may be as common as dirt. We are free to define personhood however we wish because most assuredly nature doesn't care.

This subject makes us very uncomfortable because in our brutal history we've had a lot of trouble attributing personhood to our fellow humans, much less animals. People are afraid to pull animals like chimpanzees up into our system of ethics because they are afraid the dominant society might backslide once again to an ethical systems where certain groups of humans are once again abused as animals are abused. The current dominant ethical system where all humans are supposedly brothers and sisters (by our word, if not by our deed...) seems to be working better for us than those societies where some humans had lesser claim to humanity.

[Ignis]

130. We agree more than we disagree.

I'm not a proponent of human exceptionalism, but I do think that the differences between the corpus callosum of a human and a chimp are significant enough to warrant caution when equating the entire breadth of emotional response of the two species. The rub, of course, is that we cannot really know how close we are in our emotional experience until we can communicate effectively and deeply across species.

But I do believe we're within decades--if not years--of developing a bioethical framework that will recognize the inherent rights (and the associated expanded legal protections) shared by our primate cousins. Here's a thread on that topic from last week:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6775301

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Cooking and eating meat also had an effect in brain

development if I remember my evolutioary biology correctly.

Also what scares people outside the field is that chimps in particular have been observed creating tools... and a few scientists, Jane Goodall included, have speculated that at least some Chimp troupes might be on the verge of the first leap of cultural evolution leading to tool making as a regular thing.

For some reason that scares some humans to no end. For us science fiction writers it is more the... damn how can I incorporate this in fiction?

[yawnmaster]

131. Even if that is true, this picture doesn't tell me what emotions the chimps are expressing...

We are putting our own spin on it based on what we want to believe.

That's what we do.
Perhaps chimps do, too.

[LeftishBrit]

118. Very sad and touching

Chimpanzees are our closest relatives, and many of our emotions are undoubtedly similar.

[yawnmaster]

126. It does appear to be sad and touching, based on our own human emotions and...

by making assumptions on how those chimps are feeling.
Especially based on a single picture.
Primates are generally curious creatures, especially apes, so maybe they were just watching some new activity.
Did they know the chimp died?
Do they know it was dead?
How do we detect grief in a chimpanzee face?
They very well might be grieving, but I can't tell from the picture.

[niceypoo]

133. They probably hung a couple bananas off the side of the wheelbarrow

Hidden from view of the camera

[Cleita]

137. If dogs come by to respect an elder or a friend, why shouldn't chimps?

When our neighborhood elder labrador dog died last summer, a dog who seemed to have a lot of animal as well as human friends in the neighborhood, his family buried him on their property. There was over several weeks time visitations to the grave of the neighbor dogs and some cats, including mine, who went to his grave and hung around for awhile. This went on for a couple of weeks and then they stopped. I wondered if it was the smell of decomposition, but wouldn't they have dug him up if that was the case? There was no digging. The dogs owner and the rest of us were somewhat amazed at this occurrence. I only bring this up as an anecdotal incident that happened and that I have never really read about or heard about before.

[Toucano]

173. I have seen this behavior documented in elephants, cheetahs, birds, and now primates.

One instance I witnessed first hand involved a bird whose pair bond had been captured by a snake.

For awhile, the rest of the flock swooped down on the snake, trying to make it release the bird.

After a time, the the rest of the flock retreated to the nearby trees.

One member, however did not leave. It continued feeble attempts to attack the snake well after the captured partner had disappeared into the snake.

It was heart wrenching!