I believe the VT shooter was an undiagnosed schizophrenic.

[WilliamPitt]

Bank it. I have close ties to two people who suffer this, both began to suffer it when they were 19 and in college, it took a while for this to be recognized, and the descriptions of the shooter's behavior I've read are almost exactly similar.

Mr. Grewal recalled how earlier in the year someone running for a student council position visited the suite to pass out candy and ask for votes. Mr. Cho would not even make eye contact with him, turning his head away and refusing to make conversation.

“I would notice a lot of times, I would come in the room and he would kind of be sitting at his desk, just staring at nothing,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/us/17cnd-ROOMMATE.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Dora]

1. I have the same suspicion. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

2. I disagree, but time will tell.

[WilliamPitt]

4. Maybe not

If he wasn't diagnosed as such, he won't ever be now.

[Midlodemocrat]

7. I know that. But according to reports and information I've heard

he was well known at the clinic because of his dark, disturbed writings.

Frankly, my money would be on a diagnosis of BPD (DSM-IV) because of the rantings that have been made public about rich kids, charlatans, etc.

[question everything]

22. What's DSM-IV?

For those of us not familiar with mental health terms?
Thanks

[varkam]

23. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition eom

[Midlodemocrat]

28. In general terms, it's borderline personality disorder.

One aspect of the description of the shooter really made me think about this, although at the risk of Fristing him, I won't say for sure, obviously.

We liberals tend to actually see and treat those we diagnose.

Anyway, frantic or inability to control anger is one symptom, along with the whole suggestion of identiy disturbance. His ramblings about the rich kids at Tech :eyes: and the charlatan, et al, gave me some thoughts to ponder last evening while I was talking to some of the Tech kids.

Unfortunately, DSM-IV isn't all that easy to treat because it's not uncommon for the individual being diagnosed to hide some of the symptoms. Other symptoms include clingy, almost suffocating relationships along with inability to sustain relationships.

If I can find some more stuff, I'll shoot you a PM.

Interestingly, or not so much, you might not think so, I just finished reading 19 Minutes a book by Jodi Picoulout (sp?) about a teenager who commits a Columbine type shooting. The book did a decent job of delving into the mind of the shooter, but I thought the conclusion was a bit contrived.

Good read though, if you're looking for a beach read.

[pamela]

33. I think you're confused...

I don't mean that in a nasty way. The DSM-IV is not Borderline Personality Disorder. It's a diagnostic manual. BDP is in the DSM but so is depression, schizophrenia and all psychiatric disorders.

[Midlodemocrat]

34. LOL. I know.

My hands were typing faster than my brain to Will. I'll edit.

[pamela]

44. Been there, done that-lol.

Sorry for correcting you. I usually hate to do that. I can definitely relate to the hands typing faster than the brain syndrome.

[Midlodemocrat]

47. No, it's fine. I appreciate it.

I've been waiting for a thread like this to take my mind off the events. One of my friends just called to tell me that her daughter knew three of the dead and is coming home tonight after the convocation and would I talk to her.

So, it's a nice distraction for a bit.

[question everything]

65. Thank you. You obviously know a lot about this field

Just recently there was a major story in the WSJ - don't dismiss it, while the editorials are as rabid as they can get, their reporting is superb - about a young college kid who committed suicide. The clinic knew about his problems but protected his privacy and now the parents are suing the school.

[Midlodemocrat]

67. LOL. I have an online subscription to the WSJ

for my job. You're absolutely right, they have incredible articles if you skip the editorials.

[EFerrari]

91. Except folks with Borderline are much more likely to hurt themselves

or their immediate family so, imho, it's unlikely this was his problem.

There, I've joined the Frist Club. :)

[Midlodemocrat]

96. Welcome to the Bill Frist Club! LOL.

The fact that he did kill himself still lends itself to BPD, as well as killing his girlfriend.

I suspect we'll never really know the truth, but speculating has made my afternoon go by faster than before.

[EFerrari]

105. Yesterday I immediately wanted to know about his parents.

:shrug:

The only real experience I have is with borderline families. And in the ten plus years I've talked to them, we've never had someone go on a shooting spree. DV, self injury, yes. No suicides, knock on formica. But for example, when Doug used to decomp, his attention/projections would focus on me or on his roommate and not generalize to the whole world; that's consistent with what I've learned in other families.

Also, the kind of planning that went into this is sort of unlike the impulsivity that folks with BPD struggle with. And, there could have been more than one thing going on. :(

We'll probably not know unless someone in the family comes forward with family history.

[tblue37]

133. I doubt she was his girlfriend.

What I read was that he was given to stalking women--and not just one. If he couldn't even talk to people, as other reports indicate, it might well be that any relationship he had with that girl was all in his mind.

[Duppers]

131. I totally agree with you

One of my best friends has been diagnosed with BPD. She's a total wreck when she's off meds and I've tried to end my friendship with her a few times.

She's now on a new anti-psychotic drug that doing wonders for her; she's now more logical than I've even known her to be.

Anywho, she'd NEVER physically hurt anyone, only herself.

[sendero]

135. I disagree...

... there is no evidence of mania here that I've heard of.

[LostinVA]

146. Very, very interesting

[peacetheonlyway]

175. why not discuss root cause

he wrote about his step dad molesting him.

funny, long thread and we can't seem to get to the white elephant,
you know the pedophilia and rape that happens to 3 out of 4 women and
less but still more than 50% boys?

funny how no one is looking into this angle.

any psychosis relates to being humiliated sexually and the eventual mental destruction that comes from a society that doesn't talk about it's #1 biggest emotional and (apparently sex addiction) problem.

[undergroundpanther]

177. THANK YOU!!

Child sexual abuse I bet causes alot more mental illness than this society dares admit. I think bullying child abuse and child sexual abuse cause most mental illness we see today.

And most child abuse happens where? In the HOME.The little sacred nuclear family trap. Which coincidentally right wingers call the foundation of this psychopathic society and it is strange how so many right wingers and church ministers are busted for molesting kids.
http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=12154

evil people defend thier own evil.

[peacetheonlyway]

178. has anyone read his play?

it's a blueprint for how the boy got there.
ttp://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesmokinggun.com%2Farchive%2Fyears%2F2007%2F0417071vtech1.html

not that I'm a jesus freak, but Jesus loved everyone not just the mentally ok. he would have felt deep sadness for the plight of this boy till his death at 22.

he felt compassion for all god's creatures. or in taoism the way is peace and non-suffering. it takes a lot of social dysfunction for a boy like this to go so long without community help for his problems.

my therapist told me once not to trust 3 main folks:

your company
your preacher/church folk
your government

I never forget that people in supposed positions of authority often abuse that power.

the play shows his stepfather abusing him. whether true or not, his rage was around sexual abuse and likely not a single media outlet wants to address the white elephant of family sexual abuse.

*** so long as we let adults rape kids, we will have shooters like this in droves in our schools and campuses..

[Cetacea]

181. Great post!

And many young people turn against themselves rather than "turn in" their loved ones. Although it is not always the loved ones who are the perps.
I am not sure if the crime is always sexual in nature, but I do believe that humiliation and shame need to be present. This can come about from the actions of a sadistic school teacher or any one with power over the child.
And eventually the victims become stigmatized as being violent subhumans (mentally ill) ironically and tragically enough. And of course some do indeed become violent towards others, but only rarely.
Very courageous of you to post that.:patriot:

[peacetheonlyway]

182. wow, stunning good analysis

your flag makes me almost feel patriotic again, in the way I was in the 4th grade when jimmy carter was president and things seemed simpler then.

oh but they were just more masked, with Anne Sexton committing suicide for her internalized rage ..
50's/60's the culture of ignore the white elephant in the room.

anyone care to gander why the White Elephant of Sexual abuse did not even come up on mainstream TV- ever?

too close to home for most folks with stats like 3 in 4 people with abuse history?

[Cetacea]

185. I use to read Anne Sexton.

I wave the flag because I am still trying to stay optimistic that this country will shake the disease it currently suffers from. I am not very hopeful about much else.
As Vonnegut once remarked to someone at a party, "We need more radicals"
(like Jesus).
You are radical.

[Midlodemocrat]

188. Your last sentence isn't totally accurate.

Psychosis can stem from things other than sexual abuse.

I hadn't heard that he had been sexually abused by his step father. If in fact he was schizophrenic, he may not be completely trustworthy about what he wrote prior to the event.

[NightWatcher]

3. it might be any type of dissociative disorder

Please be careful tossing around the term "schizo" it has quite a negative stereotype.

[WilliamPitt]

5. I'll be sure not to offend my family members

with the term used to daignose them by their doctors. :think:

Cool out.

[NightWatcher]

14. I'm fine with the term "schizo"

but events like these tend to scare people with problems away from seeking help. People on the verge of seeking help might see the term to equate them with a violent sociopath. He definitely appeared to be sick, but without a proper diagnosis, we'll never know.

I'm cool, I just dont want to scare kids who need help.

[JuniperLea]

101. Part of the problem with schizophrenes...

Is that they rarely think they are sick. The mentally ill in general have a hard time admitting to it, understandably.

[Maiden England]

153. Loss of insight is a recognized symptom

Its not that they have a hard time admitting it to themselves, its that the disease takes away the ability to internally recognize themselves as sick. They don't know they are sick. In fact many times they don't know anything is wrong at all.

[badgerpup]

156. I've known a couple people with schizophrenia...

...and while their version of reality was...different from most of those around them, they were really pretty decent guys.

Mostly what they wanted was to be left alone and not bothered.

The difference was in how they were perceiving and interpreting the actions of those around them..'doesn't like me', 'thinking bad thoughts about me', 'thinks I look crazy' when most of the time the people they concerned about hadn't even registered their presence.
This was mostly why they wanted left alone and not bothered- not being able to trust your perceptions gets old really fast and can be frightening.
Yeah...been there, done that on the 'can't trust perception' thang. :scared:

A lot of schizophrenia goes undiagnosed and untreated, because the people tend to just isolate and fade into the background and not bother anyone.

It's the 'violent cases' that get the attention, and so make schizophrenia more scary (and therefore less likely to be treated) than it already is.

[JuniperLea]

100. I'll second that...

The only time my family member became upset about the use of the term was while listening to a Black Sabbath tune that referenced it. She settled down when she realized that Ozzy thought he himself was a schizophrene, and then she decided she was in good company:) Too bad she couldn't make a living from it like he did:)

[Midlodemocrat]

10. I'm puzzled by your comment.

Why would the term schizophrenic be considered a slam? It's a medical diagnosis. :shrug:

[NightWatcher]

18. "schizo" has been demonized in some areas and equated with being a monster

In some circles it has become synonymous with being a monster. Sorry if I'm sensitive, but I've seen what happens when some people are too scared to get help.

[Midlodemocrat]

21. I know, I'm a shrink, but that's not what Will said.

[Bucky]

69. Actually, "shrink" has been demonized in some areas and equated with being a monster, too

[Midlodemocrat]

72. Not by me, nor anyone I respect.

[JuniperLea]

102. Good for you!

Happy to hear this:)

[Cetacea]

164. self-delete. nt

[aljones]

25. Will did not even use the term "Schizo"!!

If this unfortunate young man was in fact Schizophrenic, our sympathy should be with him as well. Schizophrenia can be a debilitating disease.

Aly

[orleans]

62. i don't know about "schizo" being equated with "being a monster"

but i have heard -- for years -- too many people equating it with multiple personality disorder. it's as if a large part of the general public (at least where i live) have never been able to differentiate between the two disorders.

[kestrel91316]

75. You aren't one of those people who gets offended by the medical term

"vagina" also, are you????

Schizophrenia is a medical term and should NOT be avoided because of other people's ignorance.

[maggiegault]

79. It's a touchy subject for many mentally ill people.

"Bipolar" is misused far, far more these days than "schizo," being used to describe anyone who is irrational or even just in a bad mood.

Mental illness is not viewed as legitimate by so many in this country, which is a crime, because for those whose lives have been tainted by psychiatric disease, they have to live not only with the illness but with the ignorance every single day.

[Midlodemocrat]

93. Bipolar disorder is not schizophrenia

it's what used to be called manic/depression or depressive disorder. Schizophrenia is hallmarked by hallucinations, which are usually absent in bipolar disorder.

[maggiegault]

107. As I am bipolar, I already knew that.

[Midlodemocrat]

109. Sorry, I must have misintepreted what you wrote.

I thought you were stating that the term bipolar was used to refer to schizophrenia.

[maggiegault]

126. No, just how I could understand why someone might take offense at "schizo"

[Midlodemocrat]

130. That was the whole point, Will never used that term.

[RedCappedBandit]

151. Is it true

that people suffering from schizophrenia don't usually suffer actual "hallucinations" but rather "delusions" ...?

I'm a psych student, and as you say you're a shrink.. so i figured i would ask :hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

186. I think it's a matter of semantics, frankly.

Severe schizophrenia is earmarked by 'voices'. Whether or not they're referred to as hallucinations or delusions, I think they are probably more delusional. Left untreated, well, you already know what I'm going to say.

In the early stages of schizophrenia, sometimes the patient mistakes the 'voices' for their conscience or their inability to make a decision. If diagnosed and treated at that stage, the outcome is far more positive.

I have seen cases, however, where the schizophrenic was actually 'seeing' things that weren't there, ie, bugs in their food, etc. which in those cases, would be more hallucinations.

[Warpy]

17. I prefer to use the proper medical term:

He was crazier than a shithouse rat.

[Midlodemocrat]

19. That made me laugh for the first time in two days.

Thanks. :thumbsup:

[NightWatcher]

20. I thought it was "crazier than a crackhouse rat"

[havocmom]

158. From any other DUer, funny. From Warpy, with the little we know of your work...

hysterical!

And dead solid accurate. A therapist pal says the same damn thing.

[TahitiNut]

40. It seems clear he was in the acute phase of a psychosis.

What accompanying Axis-II disorder(s) he might have are speculative.

[Midlodemocrat]

76. You know, I hope you are right.

I hope he was mentally ill because I would prefer that to the belief that he was that evil.

[EFerrari]

99. These aren't mutually exclusive situations.

:(

[Midlodemocrat]

104. True, true.

It's the pollyanna in me wishing that the evil weren't so pervasive and that we could medicate it away.

*sigh*

[EFerrari]

108. I know. Me, too. n/t

[Cetacea]

166. Or zap it away...

Science at it's best.




Not.

[Duppers]

136. evil

Hi, Midlo-

Since I know a little about you, you're the perfect person to ask this generic philosophical question:

Are people born "evil" and if not, what makes them become "evil"?

As if thousands of books haven't been written on the subject and as if you could answer that in a paragraph or two. :)

However, I having a "conversation" about this with another DUer who's throwing the term 'evil' around a lot and your answer could help me out. My advanced thanks.


I agree with Will, btw.

[Midlodemocrat]

140. OMG.

*gulp*

I do believe that a certain portion of the population is born evil, in that they are sociopathic, without conscienc in their behaviors and actions. I don't necessarily believe that what society perceives as a normal upbringing will bring forth a Jeffrey Dahmer. You do however, hear stories all the time about 'super kids'. Kids who essentially raised themselves while mom was lying in a crack haze on the couch and dad was absent.

That being said, I am also a strong proponent of nurture. I believe that proper attention to a baby and child can 'encourage' that child to grow the way society expects. By that, I mean socially acceptable behaviors and attitudes. For example, not mating with dogs, etc., (which some may feel is okay and I'm not judging, but it isn't the sociological norm) This isn't to say that caring parents can't produce a troubled child, it happens all the time and for a variety of reasons.I am talking in extremes, like producing a mass murderer.

That's my down and dirty. YMMV. Probably no help at all and not an answer to your question. :hi:

[Duppers]

144. Thanks!

Yep, I read a lot about sociopaths and what can possibly create them, such as a lack of true bonding in childhood combined with certain chemical disorders, etc. But you believe that some sociopaths are just born. I tend to disagree...says a lot about a god that'd let this happen, uh?

No. 1, I know sociopaths don't seek therapy and No. 2, if force, it does not good. Sigh.


I always love your posts, btw.

:hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

148. Thank you! That's very kind of you.

:hi:

[jedicord]

81. Only negative because it's such an awful mental illness.

My mom had it. It gets worse and worse, and we eventually lost a wonderful, loving, caring mother to the disease. Then cancer got her body.

I'm not ashamed to say she was schizophrenic. Why would I be?

And I agree with Will, from what I've read he did show similar symptoms as my mom. Although there are so many types of mental illness, and he could even have just been on LSD and having a bad trip. I'm no mental diagnostician.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Very well could be.

Young adult male. Some mental health issues. Sudden, explosive out burst of violence.

That said, I wouldn't make a diagnosis off of what we hear on the news. That strikes me as a Santorum/Schaivo kind of thing.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

8. Perhaps I Am Also...

Sometimes I sit at my desk and stare at nothing.

[Reader Rabbit]

9. Is this something that can be determined via autopsy?

Are there brain chemicals or neurological evidence that would show such a thing? And even if there is the possibility of evidence, would they be able to find it, considering that the shooter's method of suicide more than likely took a good deal of evidence with it?

(Sorry to be so gruesome, but I am truly curious.)

[WilliamPitt]

11. I don't know.

[JuniperLea]

118. Check it out...

[Reader Rabbit]

121. Thanks! But it leads to another question...

Do MRI's work when the subject is dead?

And how much of Cho's brain would they have to work with, given that he shot himself in the face/head?

[JuniperLea]

138. Ugh...

I didn't know about the shot to the head. I've been avoiding details like that.

My step-brother shot himself in the head... and there were very few brains left in his head... most were on my closet floor... left there to be cleaned up by my dad and me... TMI!!!

That's why I avert my attention when the news articles get too graphic. I've had enough of that kind of graphic in my life:)

[Feron]

124. Not so fast...

There are two types of Schizophrenia:

Type 1 is the one we are familiar with and it has what are called positive symptoms. In this case, neurotransmitters are affected.

Type 2 is the schizophrenia with the negative symptoms like catatonia and waxy flexiblity. Waxy flexiblity basically means that if you put the type 2 schizophrenic person in one position, he or she won't move at all out of that position.

Type 2 is the schizophrenia with the abnormal brain structures like the picture above.

Anyhow the guy was most likely just a plain old murderous asshole. You don't have to be mentally ill in order to be one.

If you want to know why mental illness still has a stigma, then take a look at the people who insist that in order to commit a heinous crime you must have some sort of mental illness.

[JuniperLea]

129. Not so fast...

I disagree...

I've seen CT and PT scans of walking, functioning, barely recognizable as someone with a mental illness... and the scan looked just like this picture. That's why I knew the condition existed and I figured I'd find it on the Internets.

I've seen schizophrenes who inherited the disease. I've seen a couple who had it from prolonged drug use. I've seen others who had it due to brain injury.

There is enough evidence now to safely say there was either a depression or another illness.

The stigma comes when people can't wrap their head around the idea that an otherwise brilliant, fully functioning person can have a disease like this. I know someone who held down a job and raised a family for 20 years while taking meds. No one ever knew unless they were told.

Talking about it is a very good thing.

[Cetacea]

173. Not so fast..

I do not know of any MRI's of so-called schizophrenics (nice people generally who are usually crime victims but refuse to rat out loved ones and subsequently turn it inward) that show a brain unfettered by years of forced drugging. So are we looking at the results of Big Pharma or schizophrenia?

[Midlodemocrat]

13. I can't think of a journal article I've ever read where it was determined

via autopsy, but that is a very interesting concept.

[RobinA]

29. Maybe

Could one see the same evidence in an autopsy as in brain imaging, i.e. enlarged ventricle? Or would this even be noticable in someone this early in the disease process - assuming there is a disease process in this young man?

[Midlodemocrat]

32. I really don't know.

I haven't attended that many autopsies and, frankly, since I was in practice, the field has probably made remarkable leaps and bounds that I don't know about.

I did pull out all my 'psych stuff' last night, so if I find anything, I'll shoot you a PM.

[Warpy]

15. No, changes in brain structure/chemistry are mostly detectable

via PET scan, which means he'd have to be alive.

Genetic analysis might turn up a predisposition to it, but don't bet the rent.

[stellanoir]

16. He was an English major.

So it could prorbably be ascertained through his writings.

I've heard that they were pretty disturbing.

I can say this as a perpetually "out there" writer.

Thank "creatrix" I'm a pacifist.

LOL

[kestrel91316]

86. Schizophrenia is organic brain disease, so there might be some sort

of marker that pathologists could use eventually, but i don't think they have one now.

Schizophrenia, contrary to popular belief, is NOT a character defect or personality problem. There is a link to maternal contact with cats (a Toxoplasmosis link?) and poor maternal nutrition, IIRC.

My schizophrenic mother was born during the depths of the Depression to a mother who lost all her teeth during pregnancy (malnutrition) and who was a cat lover. Makes a person go hmmmmm........

[politicat]

111. Higher probability if father is older than 40. Cats not big risk factor.

http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/petcolumns/showarticle.cfm?id=402

The risk of schizophrenia in the child increases by 30% for every 10 years over 30 that a father is at time of conception. It is cross-cultural, since the original studies were British and Israeli, then the Swedish and Americans replicated it, and the Japanese confirmed the same findings. Paternal age explains more than a quarter of the risk, which is hugely significant. It's probably caused by the fact that sperm divide every 16 days (post puberty), so at 20, sperm has only been replicated 100 times, while at 50, it's 800 times. It's a copy error factor. Maternal age doesn't have the strong correlation, probably because eggs don't divide like sperm do. Women are born with every egg we're ever going to have.

The next big risk factors are cannabis use around puberty (10 to 13%). Living in an urban area (7-12%), maternal Vitamin D deficiency (not getting enough sunlight) (10%), and season of birth (children born in spring have a much higher risk than children born in summer) 10%. Infantile supplementation of vitamin D lowers the risk of schizophrenia in adulthood.

In contrast, maternal exposure during pregnancy to toxoplasmosis is less than 2% of the risk factor. (The fact is, there are only about 3000 US cases of infant toxoplasmosis every year. Most of us contract it as children and never have any symptoms.)

And cats are not the major toxoplasmosis carrier in the US. In fact, housecats who are fed cat food and not allowed outside to hunt or fed raw meat never carry it. The major carriers of toxoplasmosis in the US are mice and rodents, birds and domestic fowl. Most pregnant women who are exposed to toxoplasmosis are not exposed through their cats (testing on cats shows cats not to be carriers) but through commercial chicken, or through gardening (the eggs can live in the soil). Best practice prevention is to make sure you get dirty as a child, and while pregnant not to eat produce without washing it, not to garden without gloves and not to touch face or mouth with gloved hands, and to be hypervigilant about raw meat and cooking meat to 160 F.

In terms of your grandmother, if she was a cat lover, she was probably exposed to toxoplasmosis long before she had your mother. Malnutrition, vitamin D deficiency and lead exposure (remember, all paint then was lead-based and all gasoline had lead in it) are much higher risk factors.

[JuniperLea]

117. I would believe this study if...

I didn't know people who are schizophrenic and clearly inherited it from their mother... who had inherited it from her father... who had inherited it from his mother... all of whom were born to parents in their late teens or early twenties.

Then again I have known schizophrenes who had no family history, and their children never developed the disease.

Color me skeptical.

[kestrel91316]

119. Malnutrition, vitamin D deficiency - my grandmother's teeth all

got loose and had to be pulled when she was pregnant. She was sort of agoraphobic, never drank milk, never ate leafy greens, lots of meat in her diet. I do wonder about that Vitamin D thing. She got severe osteoporosis in her later years, too (grandma).

[Cetacea]

172. It only applies to black cats. Psychiatry is still a pseudo-science.

The socio/economic factors have been severely downsized to make room for Big Pharma. The Golden age of Psychiatry was when Opiates were the treatment of choice. But they were replaced by far more dangerous and expensive drugs and other miracle cures like lobotomy and shock treatment.
And shock therapy is a huge money maker, and it's proponents claim that it is safe. It's so safe in fact that it is reserved as an option of last resort...These experts on brain chemistry publicly claim that they don't know how it works. But in private they will admit that they are creating brain damage. But hey, the people getting them are nuts anyway, and
they'll probably shoot someone some day , or so the public believes.

[JuniperLea]

116. You can tell by examining the brain...

[Midlodemocrat]

142. That only holds in a live patient, though, correct?

It's been a long time since I attended an autopsy, and I don't recall the science being able to detect physical abnormalities in the brain, but I don't know.

[JuniperLea]

145. For some anomalies, not others

I recall watching an autopsy film wherein the gaps depicted in the photos here were clearly visible... no connections whatsoever. But it depends on the cause of death. The brain is very fragile and swells with the slightest provocation. It also deteriorates rapidly.

Given that this poor boy died of a self-inflicted gunshot to the head, I doubt there's enough matter to examine.

[Midlodemocrat]

147. I apologize for being unclear.

I meant that the autopsy wouldn't show any mental illness, correct? Like I said, it's been a while.

I realize that the MRI will show brain abnormalities and of course the autopsy will show cause of death, etc. but I'm not clear on the other.

Thanks.

[JuniperLea]

150. Yes, in some cases schizophrenia can be detected post-mortem

snip...

Research into schizophrenia has produced numerous theories regarding the biochemical systems involved in the disorder. One of the robust findings, in both post-mortem and neuroimaging studies, is a decrease in the apparent density of a family of receptors that the neurochemical acetylcholine binds to, the muscarinic receptors. There are five membrers in the muscarinic receptor family, all have slightly different distribution throughout the brain and can instigate different downstream responses.


www.cns.unimelb.edu.au/research/schizophrenia/


This is very informative... very interesting read.


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.virtualsciencefair.org/2005/acto5p0/public_html/loss.html&h=480&w=640&sz=53&hl=en&start=18&um=1&tbnid=vUVe1E7gwRdvZM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dschizophrenic%2Bbrain%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

snip...

The scientists also discovered that schizophrenics lost, on average, 20% of their gray matter in the most affected areas over the four-year intervals. The group without schizophrenia lost only 1% per year. The frontal and temporal lobes lost the most gray matter. Further, the amount of gray matter loss is greater over time (Thompson, et al). These studies show the progression of the disease and indicate that severity of symptoms are greater at younger onset.

[Cetacea]

159. I say it's bullshit. Where are the studies showing the effects

of years of being dosed on anti-psychotics? Is the MRI showing the effects of that or of schizophrenia?

[Cetacea]

167. It's not organic and it hasn't been fully demonstrated.

It is a socio/economic problem.

[JuniperLea]

113. Yes

Google "schizophrenic brain" and you will get tons of pictures.

[JuniperLea]

114. Brain activity AND structure are different than...

In so-called "normal" brains.

[depakid]

125. Probably not with the head blown off...

Though brain morphology seems to be distinctive in schizophrenic patients. Not sure though whether even in the best case that could be reliably determined from an autopsy.

See, e.g.:

A magnetic resonance imaging study of schizophrenia: brain structure and clinical symptoms

Thirty-one patients with schizophrenia and 33 normal control subjects underwent MRI. The BPRS was used to rate clinical symptoms and the NART to estimate pre-morbid IQ. All were right handed. The temporal lobe was significantly smaller on the left than the right in both the control and schizophrenic groups.

The amygdala was smaller on the left than the right in controls but not in schizophrenics. The parahippocampal gyrus was smaller on the left side in the schizophrenic group but not in controls. In the schizophrenic group, ventricular enlargement and cerebral atrophy were significantly related to severity of symptoms.

Patients with marked negative symptoms had a bilateral reduction in the size of the head of caudate and the two measures were significantly correlated. Patients with marked positive symptoms had larger VBRs and again the clinical and morphometric changes were significantly correlated. There were no morphometric differences between patients with short duration (two years or less) and chronic symptoms.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/158/2/158

More on schizophrenia in lay terms: http://www.helpguide.org/mental/schizophrenia_symptom.htm

[Warpy]

12. Most schizophrenics, even the most paranoid of them,

are nonviolent. Overwhelmed by sensory input that nobody else seems to share, they are mostly terrified.

He sounds schizoid, though, avoiding contact with people and looking for reasons to hate them.

[Midlodemocrat]

30. I was just thinking that as well.

I guess we'll never really know for sure what was going on in that head that made him do this.

Pity, I think. Maybe if we knew WHY, we could prevent more of these from happening.

[RobinA]

35. I Don't Think

a schizoid would do something like this. He wouldn't summon the anger at other people, and he wouldn't have voices telling him what to do. Schizoids don't hate other people, they want nothing to do with them.

[Midlodemocrat]

36. Well, remember, Son of Sam was diagnosed as schizophrenic

IIRC back in the 70s-80s. So that might not be completely true.

[Cetacea]

162. Kurt Vonnegut would have been given the same diagnosis...

...if he hadn't been rich and famous. And he was a perfect gentleman.
So the diagnosis means nothing relative to this crime.

[WilliamPitt]

53. Some are

including one of the people I'm close to.

So.

[kestrel91316]

92. Schizophrenics do, however, have the ability to become extremely

violent, and their delusions can drive them to do horrible things, seemingly without conscience.

Their actions make perfect sense to them...........just not to the rest of the world.

[Daedelus76]

170. sometimes this is true

but most of the time, even if schizophrenics have paranoid delusions and violent fantasies, they are too disorganized in their thinking to do anything meaningful about them (there are exceptions, such as Hinkley- but unuusually he had an element of erotomania, thinking that Jodie Foster was in love with him, in his delusions). More often than not, violent behavior in schizophrenics is a reaction to percieved threats.

[Daedelus76]

168. schizoids don't hate people

they just don't derive pleasure from being around people. they live very unemotional, quiet, "dull" lives, experience little pleasure, but they don't hate people. The people become loners, usually, and have few real friends. They may get married and have a family if there is enough social pressure to do so, but they won't have alot of friends.

A person with an avoidant personality, on the other hand, is likely to feel shy, ackward, and as a defense mechanism, avoids relationships with people. But again, they usually don't hate other people. In some ways the symptoms of Avoidant personality are like Aspergers Syndrome, except that Asperger's Syndrome's social element stems from problems detecting appropriate social cues and empathic understanding, hence the person learns to be a loner. Avoidant Personality stems more from deep seated feelings of depression and inferiority, so the person again becomes a loner.

My guess is this guy had depression coupled with anxiety. He may also have had elements of an avoidant personality- being Asian may have been a barrier to making friends, especially if he tended to be moody, good at English (and probably not good at math), all the stuff that goes against the stereotypes of Asians. He doesn't appear to be psychotic. He was, however, striking out at people he believed were responsible, as symbols at least, for his ills. Maybe he thought he'd lash out at society, or he'd just "show them all".

[Raksha]

169. The paranoid ones can get violent when they believe people

are talking about them. I know this because I lived with a schizophrenic for two years (my boyfriend's son). I was never afraid he'd get violent with me because his symptoms are controlled by medication which is closely monitored. But I was told about some violent episodes that had happened in the past, by his brother among others. He has a fraternal twin brother who is quite normal.

[spooked]

24. A DISTURBING One-Act Play by Cho is up at TheSmokingGun

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

DESCRIPTION from TheSmokingGun:

The college student responsible for yesterday's Virginia Tech slaughter was referred last year to counseling after professors became concerned about the violent nature of his writings, as evidenced in a one-act play obtained by The Smoking Gun. The play by Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old English major, was submitted last year as part of a short story writing class. Entitled "Richard McBeef," Cho's bizarre play features a 13-year-old boy who accuses his stepfather of pedophilia and murdering his father. A copy of the killer's play can be found below. The teenager talks of killing the older man and, at one point, the child's mother brandishes a chain saw at the stepfather. The play ends with the man striking the child with "a deadly blow."

[Sapere aude]

43. Sounds like some of the movie previews I see on the comedy channel.

While watching the Daily Show I feel like leaving the room because of the violence in the movie tracks they play during commercial time.

[aljones]

54. Just read Richard McBeef.....not very distrubing

It is an adolscent attempt to merge sex, violence and shock factor which fails miseribly.

[spooked]

71. What's most disturbing about the play is...

that he made his professor read that vulgar language.

Another disturbing thing about the play is that it was written by an English major at a top university!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. Well, it ain't exactly Hamlet.

But I wouldn't read much into it.

[RobinA]

26. Similar Situation

We had the same sort of thing in my circle of friends in college. Guy slowly withdrew. Everybody said "drugs," which, this being the '70's, were probably involved too. However, we were all on drugs, and nobody acted like this guy. Got kicked out of his apartment for slicing up all the upholstered furniture. Had a hunting rifle, so no one would really let him stay with them. Previously was not in the least bit violent. Took to disappearing for long periods of time and then would come back with wild stories about oil sheiks (the bogey man of the time) and pushing people down the stairs in Chicago. Finally was so mentally disorganized you couldn't hold a conversation with him because he made no sense. Drowned several years later swimming on the river in November.

Early adulthood is the age when schizophrenia emerges. Of course, it's also the age when a lot of people naturally act crazy, so it's hard to figure out what's going on.

[Monk06]

27. Ishmael Ax is a clue. He was either planning on forming a heavy metal band or

Ishmael Ax is Cho's imaginary friend that gets
him to run errands for him. Like killing really
a lot of people including himself.

It's a pity that the poor guy didn't get some
serious medical intervention.

[ben_meyers]

42. Ishmael Ax

Ibrahim confronts his people and rejects their idols

He left his father after he lost hope to convert him to the right path, and directed his efforts towards the people of the town, but they rejected his call and threatened him. By Allah, he said, I shall plot a plan to destroy their idols. He knew that a big celebration was coming soon, where everybody would leave town for a big feast on the riverbank. After making sure that nobody was left in town, Ibrahim went towards the temple armed with an ax. Statues of all shapes and sizes were sitting there adorned with decorations. Plates of food were offered to them, but the food was untouched. "Well, why don't you eat? The food is getting cold." He said to the statues, joking; then with his ax he destroyed all the statues except one, the biggest of them. He hung the ax around its neck and left.

How big was the shock when the people entered the temple! They gathered inside watching in awe their gods broken in pieces. They wondered who might have done this? Then they all remembered that the young Ibrahim was talking evil of their idols. They brought him to the temple and asked him: "Are you the one who has done this to our gods?" Ibrahim said: "No, this statue, the biggest of them has done it. Ask them if they can speak." "You know well that these idols don't speak!" They said impatiently. "Then how come you worship things that can neither speak nor see, nor even fend for themselves? Have you lost your minds?"

They kept silent for a while, for he got a point there. Their minds and their senses were telling them that the Truth is with Ibrahim, but their pride prevented them to accept it, and reject the idols they were worshipping for generations. This they thought would be total defeat. They started yelling at him and shouting: "Burn him! Burn him! Take revenge for your gods !"


http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ibrahim.htm

[Monk06]

51. Thanks. I was looking for a koranic reference but couldn't find it

[Duppers]

139. Serious Medical Intervention! You said it!

"It's a pity that the poor guy didn't get some serious medical intervention."

Do you know that there are DUers actually arguing with that?!!

Nawwww, they are just 'EVIL' and there's nothing that can be done about their "animal instinct"!!!

Unfuckingbelievable!

[The empressof all]

31. The majority of people with schizophrenia are not violent

When we label violent individuals without having the benefit of a true diagnosis we perpetuate a stereotype of people who suffer from this horrible brain illness.

Many different diagnoses could have contributed to this horrible event including a brain tumor. An autopsy could be useful in ruling that out but at this point a qualified mental health professional would only be able to guess at a reasonable diagnosis based on the forensics.

[Midlodemocrat]

50. Unfortunately, it's the violent ones who made headlines.

Son of Sam, the mom who puts her baby in the microwave.

and, precluding a brain tumor, I don't know what an autopsy would show that would indicate mental illness severe enough to create such a monster.

[Cetacea]

174. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I can sleep now!O8)

[Norrin Radd]

37. Armchair psychoanalyze much?

Your headline should say "in my opinion" or "possibly."

[Midlodemocrat]

38. There's no reason to be rude.

Will is entitled to his posts just like anybody else.

[Norrin Radd]

39. No rude feelings intended.

I just think the headline is irresponsible in stating his opinion as an incontrovertible fact. And I believe the post unfairly associates schizophrenia with this particular violent occurrence.

[Midlodemocrat]

45. It's a helluva lot less irresponsible than some of the other shit posted

about this tragedy. Black Ops? News dump?

And, frankly, I am enjoying this discussion. What does it matter if Will is right, or I am right or we are both dead wrong? We'll never know.

[Norrin Radd]

57. What do other posts have to do with it?

And what does it matter if I question his assertion? I do believe he has a thick enough skin to take my mild criticism, as we are all open to criticism, here.

[woo me with science]

49. I was misled by it and also think the headline should be changed.

We are still in the stage of getting constant news updates and new facts about what happened yesterday. People have to click on this and read it in order to realize that this is Will Pitt's armchair diagnosis and not actual news.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. If you read what he posted, he's commenting on personal

experience.

Much like everyone else does. This isn't LBN. He doesn't have to have a link to post a thread.

[Phillycat]

78. It says "I believe" right in the title. Isn't that obviously opinion?

[woo me with science]

97. He has since edited it. nt

[Phillycat]

77. He said "I believe." That means opinion, doesn't it?

[MonkeyFunk]

83. He edited

the title, rightly so.

[Phillycat]

88. Ah. Didn't realize that, thanks for the info.

[Raven]

41. I knew you were going to post this. I had the same thought.

The signs are all there and you and I know from sad experience, that they can be missed, easily missed. We also know, from our own experience, that many schizophrenics are not violent, that their behavior may be anti-social but not violent. We also know that they can be very violent. We also know that society does not like talking about this. We also know that a generation ago, this condition was kept in the closet. Many of these people lived at home and were sheltered or got shock treatments. This was never discussed. We may never know definitely about this young man now, but you are probably right and nobody picked it up.

[johnnie]

52. I think people may have picked up on it

I haven't had a chance to read too much about this guy, but they have said that he was referred to the school's counseling service. He declined to go.

I wonder what can be done to someone who doesn't want to be treated.

[kestrel91316]

95. Nothing. Psychiatric care cannot be forced upon a person

who is not an IMMEDIATE threat to himself or others. In 50 states.

It's the main reason why we have so many homeless.......

[regnaD kciN]

110. I wonder if that's something that might change...

...due to incidents like this? :shrug:

[kestrel91316]

115. Nah. Our legislators spend too much time on BS and ignore the

important stuff, like giving the mentally ill a real shot at normal life.

[Cetacea]

161. They have civil liberties like you.

That is why there are laws prohibiting locking them up based on opinions.
In the past, many very gentle and usually well off people were committed by one or more persons after their money. That is just one example.
And once hospitalized, they had fewer rights than criminals.

I know of one person who was committed because he wouldn't eat animals before vegans were common. From there he was diagnosed as...schizophrenic and given huge doses of mind-bending anti-psychotics and eventually shock treatments. He lost most of his memories but was fortunate enough to eventually heal, going on to become an attorney for patients rights.
You are correct though in the sense that when the laws were passed to protect the civil liberties of individuals with psychiatric definitions, politicians took advantage of the law and dumped them onto the streets with little money for alternate programs.

[MistressOverdone]

46. Interesting OPINION

The OP header had me thinking this was a fact.

[Midlodemocrat]

48. .

:eyes:

[johnnie]

Seconded n/t

[WilliamPitt]

55. Good thing you read the post, then

:eyes:

[MistressOverdone]

61. Well, I always read your posts!

[Lil Missy]

56. I initially wondered about a history of being bullied, as in the Columbine case

But, it certainly does seem now that a mental illness probably played a part in this tragedy. And what is frustrating is that he was, indeed, identified as someone in need of intervention and counseling.

Just brings me back to the gun issue and how easily accessible they are, which is a topic for a different thread.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

59. He set a fire in the dorm and they let him stay there??!!

He should have been hospitalized in a psych hospital at that point - he was a "threat to others."

I worked at a psych halfway house and WE would have sent him to a psych hospital at that point and wouldn't have let him back in. Anyone who sets a fire in a building where hundreds of people live - that's a huge danger and serious stuff.

[riderinthestorm]

82. The fire in the dorm room bears investigating - why wasn't he kicked out then?

That's a major no-no in most dorms. As an RA at a major big ten school (years ago), I was supposed to even report burning candles as an infraction to the campus police! This was a huge school with an enormous dorm population and the campus police wanted to know about ANY flames in a dorm for any reason - that's how seriously they took that offense.

(FYI for those of you who never lived in the dorms, most dorm contracts have stipulations about any kind of fire in a dorm room. In fact, the RA usually has a big talk at the beginning of the year and repeats shit like that again in case you missed the fine print).

[MonkeyFunk]

60. Thank you Dr. Frist

I have this mole on my back - does it look OK to you?

[WilliamPitt]

64. No, it looks like a ball of crap.

Kinda like your post.

:eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

87. ah

I see you edited your OP - good.

Now it's 42% less crappy.

[Bucky]

66. That's not a mole. It's an unformed MonkeyFunkTwin

----the brother you always wanted!

[MistressOverdone]

63. I appreciate the edit

[woo me with science]

70. Me too. Thanks, Will. nt

[Raven]

68. Just let me add some more...

like autism, this condition has gone without attention for generations. Autism was blamed on the "refrigerator mother" theory...Mom didn't bond with the kid. Because of that, years went by without real research being done. Now it's getting done. Schizophrenia is similar, not the same, but similar. It scares people. Those with the disorder, hear voices and talk to themselves. They do not bathe often and they often end up on the street. This happens like turning a light switch off. Believe me, I know. One day you have a smart, funny, handsome kid and the next day he's gone. It is just as fast as that. This disorder is much more prevelent in males in late adolesence than it is in girls, although it does occur in girls, usually a little later. My point is that this is usually a shock to the parents because, one day they have a perfectly normal child and the next day he's gone. This is a condition that needs to be recognized and researched!

[Midlodemocrat]

74. and one of the other most damaging aspects of schizophrenia

indeed any significant mental illness is the reluctance on the part of the patient to be medically compliant.

It is such a crapshoot to try and prescribe the correct cocktail to a mentally ill patient and virtually all of the anti-psychotics, even the most recent generations have significant side effects that make the patient feel horrible.

Factor in the family's inability to help and some family's inability to pay and it's a recipe for disaster like we saw yesterday.

[Raven]

80. Absolutely! In the situation I am most familiar with, the medication

finally started to work and the person taking it decided he didn't need it anymore...he was cured. The most difficult for a young person with this is to accept the fact that he has it and will have it for the rest of his life and will have to take meds that have some nasty side effects. In my particular situation, the parents were financially able to afford treatment but it was off the scale for most people.

[Midlodemocrat]

90. Many years ago, pre children (my own)

I treated a child who was bipolar. The different drug cocktails finally clicked and he went off to college UCONN, of all places, happy as a clam. In fact, he was going to be in a class I taught until I essentially 'recused' myself for lack of a better word.

Then, he returned home at Christmas, took himself off the meds because he was 'better' and hanged himself in his family's basement.

Compliance is everything.

[kestrel91316]

73. My mom went undiagnosed until her late 30s (she's very clever

and always has been good at keeping her disordered thinking to herself). But in retrospect we realized that she must have had private delusions for many years - she was "odd" and tended to form strange opinions of normal people in her lives......

[Raven]

89. Very unusual in women but not unheard of. What happened to your Mom?

You are talking about her in the past tense.

[kestrel91316]

112. After thirty years of untreated schizophrenia (or whatever the hell

it is that has plagued her) and no medical care at all, she had a few strokes and dissecting aneurysm from untreated hypertension. She is in assisted-living now, finally on antipsychotics after my sister got a psych evaluation and medical power of attorney (mom is officially incompetent now). Also on antihypertensives. Severe stroke-related dementia, but no more delusions to speak of. Nearly blind, very confused. Only 72 yrs old. At least she is in a safe place - she wandered the US for years (crazy woman driving a car, eeck!!), varying degrees of homelessness.

We need to change our laws so people like her can get treatment. Most of her adult life has been a wasteland.

[Raven]

120. I'm sorry,Kestrel. n/t

[MichaelHarris]

85. I'm going with SPO

Severely Pissed Off

[hunter]

94. Well it was something, that's for sure.

But here in the U.S.A. we will have to bleep and blur out those bits because they might offend our Puritan sensibilities.

[JuniperLea]

98. I've said the same thing in many threads in the past 24 hours

Needed anti-psychotics...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=670188&mesg_id=670230

[Colobo]

103. As a person with schizophrenic family members

I have to admit this could be the case. Maybe not... who knows... the thing is my family member attempted against her own life, not against people around her.

[H2O Man]

106. He may have been.

Yesterday's tragic events have stunned the nation. In our attempts to "make sense" of what happened, many of us watch the news on tv, and read the information being reported in the newspapers and on the internet, and try to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Certainly, some of the things that are being reported sound like some symptoms of schizophrenia. And even without reading his note, one gets the feel of a highly disturbed, paranoid individual.

I believe that the fellow wrote the note between rounds of his killing spree. Thus, it is likely that his state of mind would be both highly agitated and intense.

What will be of interest to those who are involved in the investigation will include the days, weeks, and months before yesterday. It sounds like there were behaviors that could be related to a schizophrenic disorder, but are also similar to other illnesses.

Another factor would be family history. Again, while not "proof positive" in and of itself, if there were a few family members with schizophrenia, who had similar histories as this fellow, it would be significant.

One of the things that stands out to me is that he appears to have had a high degree of planning before setting out on Monday morning. Though we all agree that wanting to massacre people is "disordered" thinking, there was what looks to be significant planning. That may be as important in understanding him as the note he wrote late Monday morning.

Other factors that may (or may not) have been played a role would include any history of substance abuse. This could include legal and illegal substances.

In the next few days, we may well learn a number of interesting things, possibly including the impressions that others had of him. I suppose we are all curious what diagnosis he may have had, and other information about his course of treatment. And maybe we won't.

Either way, we should always keep in mind that those with major mental illnesses are far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime, than they are to commit one.

[Zhade]

122. Which, of course, does NOT cause all its victims to slay people.

Like my own grandmother, who so far hasn't gunned down anyone.

Might as well say they were undiagnosed with OCD, for all the relevance it makes.

[Cetacea]

155. I am enjoying the treads I've spawned.

Like this one, which proves that even some of the most progressive thinkers
aren't.

[meldroc]

123. Definitely mentally ill, not sure which illness.

I've had a little bit of experience with mental illness, having dealt with bouts of depression, and one of my good friends was diagnosed with schizophrenia and some other mental disorders. He takes medication, gets proper treatment, and is one of the nicest people I know.

He does have all sorts of horror stories coming from the state mental hospital in Pubelo though...

[loyalsister]

127. In the spirit of respect for human beings

and avoidance of stereotypes, I would hope that in this forum we would do our best to avoid armchair diagnoses.
There will be so much speculation and so much controversy that we need not drag our friends and the stigma that already exists into it.

No assumption of ill will intended.

I am trying to avoid any controversy as much as possible.

[Gregorian]

128. Health care, not bombs.

I keep using the term "unhealthy", to describe Mr. Cho.

In this divided society, we tend to let people fall through the cracks. And we pay the price, one way or another.


It's overdue time to alter this society's direction, and it's values. Respect and health and community should be our future.

[Cetacea]

132. I think you are discriminating.

Just like everyone else who believe that people suffering from various psychotic disorders are violent. If anything, they are less so.

I do always a enjoy your posts though, William.

[Hidden Stillness]

134. Don't Put It on Schizophrenics

With all due respect, I do not agree with this, and I believe the "mental illness"/"loner" line which people so easily and quickly turn to, is just laziness and refusal to face facts, like the threatening power of sustained hate. From the evidence revealed, this male seems to be a woman-hater, a stalker at least twice, someone who ruminates and builds up grievances, writes very violent, hateful fantasy, and who does not seem to have adjusted to the surrounding society at all.

Most of all, though, I have a family member who is a schizophrenic, and as difficult and stressed as things have always been, there is no inherent violence to this condition. I have since learned--from the studies of Stanton Samenow, etc.--that psychosis is negatively correlated with violence, that is, numbers of incidents drop when the psychotic episodes flair up, and numbers of violent or criminal incidents rise to near-normal-range levels when psychotic episodes settle back down and more "normal" thinking returns, among this group. Schizophrenics are far more likely to be the victims of crime than the criminals; there is no evidence of psychosis or schizophrenia here; don't blame it on an easy target. A lot of people are using general language and then presuming very particular mental states, as if you called it "frightened and evasive," and then presumed you could tell the difference between paranoia and ordinary social phobias from that mere description.

We will all learn what it is as things go along, but to jump on the "schizophrenics did it" routine, when it seems to be a very angry person who built up a lot of rage, does not help.

[Hissyspit]

141. Chapel Hill 1995 - UNC student shoots two people downtown

http://www.emory.edu/AAPL/newsletter/N262_Williamson_v_Liptzin.htm

"In January 1995, plaintiff (Wendell Williamson) returned to Chapel Hill and began living out of his car. He stopped attending classes and purchased guns and ammunition. In addition, the plaintiff returned to his parents' home, to retrieve a M-1 rifle, the gun UNC hospital staff noted he possessed. The weapon had been since plaintiff's hospital stay in 1992. On 26 January 1995, eight months after his last session with defendant, plaintiff randomly fired the M-1 rifle at unarmed people in downtown Chapel Hill, killing two of them."

- snip -

The defendants' three psychiatrist experts all made essentially two points. First, psychosis does not equate to dangerousness and dangerousness is notoriously unpredictable; as one put it, "because the base rate of violence is so low, and most schizophrenics aren't violent and most normal people aren't violent either, that demographic data does not get you anywhere in predicting dangerousness."

[Midlodemocrat]

143. I believe it is more of a way of saying

:whew: Thank God, that's not me, nor my son, or daughter, or whomever. Almost a way of laying blame without actually laying blame.

My son would never do that. He's not ))))))fill in the blank))))))

But, that's just my opinion.

[WilliamPitt]

154. I'm not pulling this idea out of my ass.

I have long and personal experience dealing with it. What I've read and seen on the news - his invisible girlfriend named "Jelly" and his playing of one song over and over and over and over, for example - sound very, very familiar.

The problem with a board filled with uninformed or half-formed opinions is that it's all too easy to dismiss an informed one with all the others. I've seen these described symptopms, up close and at length, and I feel competent to offer my opinion on the matter.

[Cetacea]

179. So what exactly is the point of your op?

Seriously.

[WilliamPitt]

180. The expression of opinion, inspired by events, based on that data and formed by experience.

But, yeah, you'd think that part was pretty fucking obvious, right?

Jesus.

:eyes:

[Cetacea]

183. You are a great presence here, Will,

I think it's a very tricky subject mostly because of the tricky problem of stigma, and how it pertains to mental illness.
I grew up in one of the most liberal states in the country, yet a house that was slated to become a residency for mildly retarded adults was burned to the ground. And it wasn't that long ago.
And you are probably familiar with the story of the Jewish man who happened to be a well known mentally ill person in his neighborhood. He was shot 44 times for banging a hammer on the pavement in front of his home. He did threaten the officers, but he was shot to death with 44 bullets. If they felt truly threatened, one shot to the leg would have done the trick...

The stigma is so pervasive that if a healthy person is even perceived of being ill, that person is protected under Social Security Disability laws.
Many of us, when we are angry, will refer to the subjects of our anger as nut jobs and such.
It's the ultimate insult.
I am sure you are well aware of this problem and are sensitive to it. I am just trying to make you feel better about opening this can of worms!
And I should apologize to you and anyone else here if my posts were a bit acidic and/or over the top.

Cheers.





:toast:

[Cetacea]

157. self-delete. Crouching tiger,biting tongue.

[Shine]

137. My BIL is schizophrenic and had his first psychotic break at 19 yrs old

he has never been physically violent, although he does have some anger-management issues, with abusive yelling and the like.

The point is, not all schizophrenics get to the point of being capable of committing murder. It's not a blanket type of diagnosis.

My two cents.

[Blue_Roses]

149. Hard to say at this point

but after reading his one act play, I wonder if some of that was projecting something dark that was going on at home.

[RedCappedBandit]

152. I don't think there is enough evidence

to support or debunk that theory.

This entire issue though, with adolescent males in our society, is extremely interesting (not to make light of the tragedies associated), but I don't think mental illness is the only culprit in ANY of these scenarios.

[AJ9000]

160. Could be but I think you're overstating the case at this point.

He fits the classic loner personality type that does this sort of thing. These folks are often disturberd, lonely, and miserable, but not necessarily schiz or pathological.

If there's any lesson - we need to reach out to these people so they know someone cares and don't feel so isolated, and stop portraying gun violence in the media all the time.

Instead we're gonna focus on gun control, and "security measures" and such that are usually too little too late.

[western mass]

163. medications related to the treatment of psychological problems

From the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/us/18gunman.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

"officials said prescription medications related to the treatment of psychological problems had been found among Mr. Cho’s effects."

After reading his plays, the first thing I thought of was schizophrenia. Written in a strangely disorganized style, strong undertones of paranoia.

[barb162]

165. He was paranoid, that's for sure

with his conspiracy theories about the rich kids,etc.

[Dastard Stepchild]

171. Could be major depressive disorder with psychotic features....

Could be SSRI-induced psychosis.
Could be the actions of a suicidal individual that planned to go out with a tremendous bang.

Such a tragic story for all involved, regardless of the precipitating factors. I wish we understood mental illness better.

[Cetacea]

176. We won't.

At least as long as the current mode of diagnosis remains the norm.
We drug and shock them into oblivion and expect to learn...what?

One cannot diagnose a person by meeting with that person for fifteen or forty-five minutes.
One has to see the day to day events, the people in the persons life and how they interact with the person. This method was used to great effect on Beach Boy genius Brian Wilson.
Instead, a diagnoses is given right off, (usually) meds are dispensed, and so forth. As you correctly perceived, the SSRIs are known to cause aggression and acute anxiety. They are very powerful mood/mind-altering drugs.
The art of Psychiatry needs a huge house-cleaning.

[anitar1]

184. It certainly sounds right to me. The interview with his

room mates revealed a disturbing state of mind. Very weird guy. Called himself Question Mark, had imaginary girlfriend who was a super model ect.Seemed to imagine lots of things that never happened.

[AuntPatsy]

187. It could be bi polar as well, they are similar in some aspects.