Decades-worth of unnecessary jobs/businesses have come to an end.

[SoCalDem]

This is what's at the crux of our next problem.

We (the US) are no longer the driving force in the world. We no longer make & provide the necessities of life for the world.

When we stopped BIG manufacturing, on a grand scale, we switched to a "make-work" economy, where paper-pushing, phone-answering, consulting, counseling, tending-to, etc., became our "new way".

We were all told that manufacturing was dirty, time-consuming, back-breaking work...it polluted (it really did), it was costly to maintain and innovate all those creaky old factories, and our "colonies" abroad could do the work for pennies on the dollar...YAY!! cheap stuff.

The manipulation of currency and trade deals and so many other financial shenanigans drove this runaway bus, but it's finally run out of gas, and there are so many enterprises that will never be coming back, and so many jobs will never return either.

We can accept the fact that the fantastic steel mill wages & UAW wages and so many other "good" jobs will never again be here, but even the cruddy soul-sucking desk/cubicle jobs are scarce now.

We overdid it, because so many people had to have an income, and that meant there had to be jobs for people, even if they were not "necessary" jobs.

Those of us who are older, have a reference point to gauge the changes.

A town of 20-30K used to have a few shoe stores, a few good department stores, a couple of grocery stores, maybe 2 or 3 theaters..There was competition, but there was also enough business to support all (or most) of these businesses. Many were businesses that had been there for 50 year or more, and had supported families, employed people, and prospered. They were NOT 110K sq.ft./jammed to the rafters stores. They were modest family businesses. The owners did not "borrow to meet payroll". they paid for their merchandise with the 10-day-discount, they saved their profit, for lean times, and they did not loot their businesses for their own gratification.

Everywhere you go today, things are exactly the same, all towns have the same stores, restaurants, etc. People all work for the same bosses, because a precious few own everything. Entrepreneurs start a business, it prospers a little, and they immediately look into selling it for "big-bucks" to a corporate cannibal, who guts it, lays people off, and passes it on to the next corporate cannibal, looking for a write-off. The customers & employees of that company just fall by the wayside.

There is more to business than just price-cutting and undercutting. People have basic needs and they have wants & desires. Businesses crop up to satisfy these needs & wants, but when there are too many places offering these goods & services, there's not enough demand to keep them all afloat.

People are lazy, and they like to get everything easy. It's no wonder that the shopping center idea took root in the 60's & 70's, but too much it still too much.

We were all better off when we had fewer "choices", but those choices were goods made by, transported by, sold by our own fellow citizens, and the commerce was spread around to everyone along the line. Money circulated and it made stops all along the ladder..top to bottom.

Progress always puts someone out of business, but hyper-progress and mass consumerism has put millions out of work, and millions more deep into life-crushing debt..and lowered wages for most of us.

What's next?

Where will all these unemployed find work?

house building-selling-furnishing? unlikely anytime soon

will 45-60 yr olds "go back to school" so they can start over? unlikely

just how does a 24 yr old saddled with 40K of school debt, ever get out of debt in time to start a life?

If 35-40% of income goes to put a roof over your head and 30% is "acceptable" for medical COVERAGE (not the actual medical procedures), how does the remaining 30% lead one to a comfortable lifestyle?

all questions & no answers yet..

stay tuned..it's going to be an interesting docu-drama

[NRaleighLiberal]

1. Exactly. Lots of heads in the sand right now. Jobs - where, indeed!

[Ruby the Liberal]

2. Thank you for this. K&R nt

[rubberducky]

3. Wish I could give you a thousand rec! But alas I can give just one.

But, I`m going to keep an eye on this post and give kicks where needed.

[obliviously]

4. I was all ready to criticize you

But as I read on I would have to agree with most of it. Food for thought anyway!













i

[livetohike]

5. Braddock, PA - still has a steel mill but

hardly anyone lives there anymore. When the malls opened in the 60's and 70's, it helped close all the businesses on the main street which is Braddock Ave. I found this pic from the 40's, but I remember Braddock from visiting my grandparents there from the 50's and on until their deaths in the 80's.



Here is a recent photo of the same street. Where are the people? Where are the shops. This photo is actually pretty nice. I drove down there a few months ago and it's deserted with boarded up windows and dilapidated buildings.....I'm glad my Grandparents didn't live to see what happened to their town :-(.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

70. Altoona's the same way.

At least we still have the hospital that employs quite a few people.
I saw the news this morning and was surprised at the announcement concerning UPMC Braddock.
http://kdka.com/health/UPMC.braddock.closing.2.1251674.html

Downtown Altoona is gradually coming back to life after decades of decay due to the malls and shopping centers taking all of the shoppers away.
Of course the only reason it's starting to come back is because of Penn State buying more and more of it to use for activities and possible living space for students.

The problem is that a lot of the old buildings downtown are literally falling down. Our downtown used to be an incredible place to shop but it's more like a ghost town most of the time now.
These photos give you an idea of what happens when a town goes from a population of over 80,000 to around 40,000 in 50 years. The railroad was what really made the city. After WWII, the decline started but it didn't really go down hill until the 60's & 70's.

[livetohike]

74. I haven't been to Altoona in decades.....

it's very sad to see. I lived in CA for 13.5 years, with all it's new construction and then come home to our little towns back home here...:cry: for our cities.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

81. I can still remember going downtown and there were so many great stores and large buildings.

I think that right now there are two large buildings in the process of being razed and the old Woolworth building is falling down on its' own.
Some of the other classic stores and social halls have already been torn down.

We're just fortunate that Penn State is investing a lot of money in the downtown since they've outgrown the campus.

The campus used to be called "Bath House U" because when it first opened, the only classroom was in the old bath house from the days when it was an amusement park. It's now over 167 acres and growing so fast that there just isn't any room left, hence the use of the downtown.

[livetohike]

103. It's great PSU is helping out in that way

Braddock needs a miracle.

[A HERETIC I AM]

106. The downturn of Altoona as an industrial city... (edited)

is in large part tied to the demise of the Steam Locomotive and the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.

The Altoona steam shops, Locomotive Works and yards were the largest of their kind in the world for many years. At its peak, 16,000 people worked there. There were many downsides to those boom years though. One example is the parts of town downwind of the shops and yards were constantly coated in a fine layer of soot from the Locomotives and other boilers used in operating the facility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altoona_Works

http://www.altoonaworks.info/

Edited for sentence structure and to add the following;

The Altoona works built several examples of what is arguably one of the most beautiful Steam Locomotives ever made, the 4-4-4-4 T-1;

[TwilightGardener]

72. But yinz still have Kennywood! Fond memories...

[livetohike]

73. My Grandparents' house was on the hillside and we could see

Kennywood on the opposite hill across the valley....on the 4th of July we would watch the fireworks from my Grandparents' back yard and sometimes the paper (still on fire) would land there!! Yeah, great memories :-).

[TwilightGardener]

77. I am short, and when I was a kid, I used to HATE "Jeepers" and Yogi Bear

and the other cartoon wooden cutouts they used to measure kids with to allow them on rides. I remember I had to wait forever (in little kid time) to finally ride the Thunderbolt, but at least I got to ride the Jackrabbit with its double-dip.

[livetohike]

91. The Jack Rabbit was the first roller coaster I rode

I was tall for my age and I could not wait to be taller than....I think it was Howdy Doody :shrug:. Anyway, I rode it with my Dad, who told the story of when he was a kid (in the 30's) and a guy stood up on the top curve before the first dip and fell to his death. Well it was an effective story. I made sure I stayed put and held on for my life :-).

[KamaAina]

98. The mayor of Braddock went on Colbert a while back

to pitch his revitalization plans for the city.

http://www.15104.cc

(the spelling "Braddocc" is intentional and comes from local hip-hop culture)

[livetohike]

102. Thanks for the link KamaAina

I just watched the local news and the mayor of Braddock was interviewed because the local mega-hospital monopoly is closing the hospital in Braddock. My Uncle died there last December and the hospital was undergoing renovation then (saw it since I visited my Uncle). The county officials are in an uproar now because tax dollars were used for the remodeling. Over 600 employees work there. Besides the steel mill, this is the largest employer.

Braddock and the surrounding small communities have a large proportion of elderly and low income residents. This is sickening.

[inna]

KR+8 nt

[Mari333]

6. for decades the jobs have been sent overseas and down to mexico

Reagan gave his big tax breaks to corporations, promising everyone they would rebuild america!
they didnt. they took their new cash and went out of the country looking for slave labor.
what they didnt think about was that without a middle class to BUY their cheap goods, they would suffer eventually.
well the middle class here is gone.
no one can buy their shit.
so we bail the bastards out with what little money the middle class has left to buy some time.

its like a shell game.

no one will win, tho.

[mrcheerful]

7. Excuse me but that is what the driving force behind the republicon economic plan

happens to be, we started seeing it under Nixon with his open door policies towards Japan dumping cheap made products in the US. Under Reagan it became popular to ship factories out of the US to countries that had a cheap labor force and very little EPA law's. To be honest I have thought since 1972 that the republicon end game was to destroy the middle class and have a 2 class country, the very rich and the very poor feeding the rich. Nothing in the following years has made me once think that was the con game plan, in fact these last 8 years have reinforced my beliefs that is what cons are trying to do.

Everything from the brain washing of american youth into believing that they can't live without the newest latest greatest gizmo to the attack on american education have driven the US to a 2 class country where the rich have all the power and the poor get table scraps. I been called crazy by some for that thinking, but when a 12 year old comes up to me and says he needs the new shaving cream out that takes 10 years off your face I knew it was WTF time. For one, the kid wasn't old enough to shave lol.

[SoCalDem]

8. Republican rule is dangerous.. always has been..always will be

I knew we were in trouble when a whole store is devoted to hair-doodads..:rofl:

how on earth does a store like that support families:)

mall store space is not cheap, and when the most expensive item in the store is $12.99...well just how many hair doodads does a person need:)

[newspeak]

116. Yeah, well NAFTA-GATT was Poppy's administration's plan

that I thought would be killed when Clinton took office. How delusional I was about that. I remember when Clinton got on the TV and told the public, that this would be great for America and how we were going to be the service industry. I told my hubby after that comment, that we'd be in the service industry alright, McDonalds.

[SoCalDem]

124. Republicans are experts at poisoning the well for their democratic successors

Poppy started the crap in Somalia, as a special treat for Clinrton, too..knowiing the difficulties he would face regarding military.. and since Clinton started out on defense, he thought he would "win over" republicans..little did he know what they had planned for him..

[Angry Dragon]

19. Welcome to the Feudal System...........n/t

[paparush]

57. Agree with your post, but then what motivated Clinton to continue to push NAFTA?

[WinkyDink]

109. His benefactors.

[WinkyDink]

108. That is exactly what has been the plan: Conquer the world and revive Feudalism.

[DBoon]

9. they will become part of the reserve army of labor

Karl Marx got some things right

[Rick Myers]

10. Excellent post!!!

Thank you for the insight... :thumbsup:

[patrice]

11. Q. What's next? A. Various co- s:

Co-operatives;
Collaboration;
Co-housing;
Co-existence . . .
Perhaps you can think of some more.

And maybe this is more relevant to the Baby Boomers than it is to younger generations, because the boomers have had it all and are ready now to give quite a bit of it up in exchange for a different quality of life.

[rubberducky]

12. Kick

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[Bonobo]

13. So true, so true. Great post.

This is why I am moving -to a tiny island far away.

I need freedom. Freedom from choice.

[branders seine]

14. I have seen the problem

and it is us--us on capitalism

[AllentownJake]

15. We have enough resources in this country

To feed, clothe, educate, and entertain every single American adequately

[SoCalDem]

16. but but but,, somebody's gotta get rich..rich,rich, I tell ya

rich off of every transaction..the public good is a concept that no longer exists:(

imagine if utilities were locally owned co-ops (as many used to be) and the rates were affordable

or

if hospitals were non-profits and "owned & operated" by the communities

or

if there were 15 hamburger joints instead of 97 hamburger joints

or if the highest paid people in education were the teachers..not the paper-pushers at the administration office

we went macro..and we need to go back to micro

if every cent one has, goes to feed , house & insure against illness, there's not much left over to drive the economy, and slow commerce means more tumble into the vortex of unemployment..and so it goes..round 'n round..

[Lagomorph]

17. how does the remaining 30% lead one to a comfortable lifestyle?

That was never promised to us. I was told that life is hard, but it can be rewarding if you make good choices.

Progress requires sweat and a lot of inglorious menial labor.

[SoCalDem]

18. Good luck with those choices.. just remember that your boss has choices too

and your employment may depend on HIS choices ..

If you are young 'un, you have time to recover, but if you're past45, you're in the same leaky boat with most of us.. so paddle or bail, but be careful not to tip us over while to "stand up" for your choices:) ultimately our own choices affect others' "choices" too:)

[Lagomorph]

23. Nobody is going to make them for you.

Everybody is in it for themselves. I see this everyday, even in congress and the DU. How many homeless people sit at our dinner tables? Nobody know if they're going to have a job tomorrow so we conserve and guard what we have.

The big corporations and the government have sold us out. Any solutions will not come from them. Until we become fiscally responsible, the real economy will keep shrinking. No matter how much money the government prints, it all goes to the banks and big corporations. We used to call that Reagan trickle-down Voodoo economics. It didn't help us then and it won't help us now.

[Romulox]

76. Except if you work in the banking industry. Then the rules are all different.

:hi:

[HughBeaumont]

47. A tree of start-up capital doesn't hurt either.

Unfortunately, none of us have that.

[Angry Dragon]

20. Thank You..........Kick n/t

[Kievan Rus]

21. So true

In modern America, everything you enjoy...including up to your very own life...is a privilege, not a right.

Anything you have...your house, your car, your job, your freedom, your health, and even your life...is at the whim of the rich. No matter how well you take care of your mortgage payments, no matter how well you perform at your job and how well you are liked by said workplace's local management, no matter how well you manage your health, no matter how reasonably and peacefully you demonstrate at the anti-G20 or anti-WTO rally...all of the above is at the whim of some greedy bastard that thinks he needs more money because eight vacation houses somehow aren't enough.

[SammyWinstonJack]

137. +1 nt

[customerserviceguy]

22. May I respectfully disagree with one of your assertions?

Why do you refer to a cubicle job as cruddy and soul-sucking, when those characterizations are not made about factory jobs, which are often on some sort of assembly line?

Three years ago, I was working in a factory making semiconductor chips, and frankly, I found that to be more soul-sucking than talking to my company's customers from a cubicle. I spent long hours on my feet in a "bunny suit" that was a miniature sweat lodge, moving plastic "pods" of silicon wafers around from machine to machine to do one of a couple of hundred steps between raw silicon and finished product. We even called ourselves "pod monkeys", because we just felt like we were there to serve the machines.

With my cubicle job, I get to sit down, try to help my company's customers, and I even get satisfaction from turning a pissed-off customer into someone who I can get a laugh out of by the end of the conversation. And I don't have to spend four or five minutes getting undressed, and another similar length of time getting re-gowned just to take a pee.

[SoCalDem]

25. Probably most jobs are soul-suckers to a point

the one thing that the "old" jobs had that newer ones often don't have, was decent pay. People came home dirty and tired, but they were often well-paid and rewarded for their labor.

Many of the "newer" jobs are often jobs that are relatively low-pay, and the bosses are always on the prowl to find someone who will work cheaper, faster, or off-shore-er..

Any time you give up your own time & energy, to perform a task for someone else, you should at least have the satisfaction that you were well paid for that time and effort, and that you provided a worthwhile service.

Those jobs are hard to come by.

[customerserviceguy]

27. I do agree with your last statement

and I'm being paid about twice as much per hour to be customerservice guy in a cubicle than I started out with when I was pod monkey in 2005, a mere four years ago.

It's more satisfying on many levels, even though it's a part time job. Saw my old buddies a few weeks ago when I went to a friend's wedding in the Pacific Northwest, and they were quite amazed that I made more in two weeks working 60 hours at a utility company than I made working two weeks for 84 hours with them, even with New Jersey income taxes taken out.

[Kaleva]

37. I don't recall my grandfathers or great grandfathers making decent pay

They worked in the lumber camps and mines for little pay, long hours and no benefits.

[newspeak]

117. that's right

and workers have fought and died to get better wages and working conditions, especially in the mines!

[newspeak]

120. and those that bash Michael Moore

I remember "Roger and Me"--he tells it like it is. A corporation does more damage to a community than a drug dealer when it closes it's doors. It kills communities as no other thing can, it harms families. And, now we see whole cities being degraded because of losing industries. When I lived in Utah, I believe that Microsoft was going to come to Salt Lake City. The city made a lot of concessions to get Microsoft, that's the taxpayer's money to bring in the industry and hire their citizens. The company decided not to move there and cost the city millions. Now Utah is a right to work state, and would bend over backwards to have a large company in. That's why I say that most corporations are not American, they could give a shite about America. It's not like Hershey who started a company that would help the community and put people to work in that community.

No more, it's about shareholder's profits, CEO profits and pure greed. So, how are we to think outside the box? Instead of catering to mega corporations, maybe community's need to think of ways to generate jobs by inventing new businesses--we need innovation and creativity(not to be sold to multi corporation), but at the hands of the small businesses and communities. And, that's what Hershey did. He had something new and mass produced it to the benefit of his community. Well, until the board decided to move some manufacturing to Mexico-so much for the boards respect of Hershey's beliefs. But, his idea is still worth considering for towns that are dying.

[SoCalDem]

131. It irks me to no end, to see people bash him

Everything he has said or shown, has been true. He uses FILM FOOTAGE of people saying/doing things, and then is criticized for "making stuff up"? WTF??

This idiocy of worshiping wealth has to stop. Wealth can be a force for change or it can just be plain ole greed..

I see these super-rich, and I always wonder.. how much is "enough"? For many people there is no limit to what they want. It's like a real-life Monopoly game, and they only can "win" if they crush everyone else at the table..

[KillCapitalism]

24. K&R

We're on a runaway train to 3rd world status, the writing is on the wall.

Most Americans are going to have to get used to a standard of living similar to what Bangladesh has.

[Autonomy]

95. That won't happen

We have the social infrastructure that will allow for adaptation and invention. The only real resource of a nation is its people, and our people are educated and driven to success. There may be some hard times as we adapt to new economic realities, but we will pull through even stronger than before. And I say this as a confirmed pessimist who hates sunshiney bullshit.

[dysfunctional press]

26. according to the ads on daytime tv- developing video games and iphone aps is the answer

or at least delivering pizzas to the people who do.

aw gee...do i gotta?...:sarcasm: :shrug:

[Leopolds Ghost]

28. It polluted? It still does -- much more overseas than the factories here ever did.

Twilight of the industrial age? Not likely. Plantation industrialization, more like it.

Information economy? More like entertainment economy -- driven by industrial warlord corporations, industrial navies and industrial armies with all their forces at the edge of the realm, safely distant from the seat of power and untouchable by any government.

Out of sight, out of mind, better for little tow-headed Bobby and Janey, right?

Just so long as we can't see the belching smokestacks, we can't regulate them, and they don't affect property values due to meaningless visual judgements (meaningless coming from the same people who regularly vote to deface the land with freeways and housing developments). Everyone wins!

All the benefits of giant oceangoing vessels loaded with industrial products, none of the horrible, horrible responsibility of hosting the industries headquarted in the US, England and Netherlands that manufacture all that stuff just miles across the border or in China.

Why, it wouldn't do to bring those industries back -- it wouldn't be "green"! best set an example for the world by offshoring all the dirty jobs and continue to build more coal plants and chem factories overseas and pretend it's part of a "green" manufacturing (consent) package here at home. Keep our hands clean.

[SoCalDem]

29. you won't get an argument from me..

this was a commonplace "reason" given for abandoning old factories. Of course they left their shit behind them, polluting for decades until someone else paid to clean them up (only sometimes).

The plan to pollute elsewhere is backfiring though, since it's being imported now, and the seas touch every piece of land on earth.. and the air circulates and the rain recycles on all continents..

[Leopolds Ghost]

30. Oh, I totally get what you wrote... no argument, just echoing your thoughts.

Internet equivalent of yelling at the TV, you know?

[Romulox]

78. Which is why "free trading" "environmentalists" are a joke.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. Very few local craftsmen anymore.

Jewelers, artistic welders, furniture makers, etc.

[Allyoop]

80. That depends

on where you are. I live near Boone, NC in the Appalachian mountains. Even now, we have lots of "Leaf Peepers" and other vacationers who fill the hotels and "pay to play".

We have lots of folks who support themselves by making jewelry, furniture, metal doo-dads that the rich folks buy for their McMansions. Fewer new building, but spending on home improvement still goes on.

Local folks learned from their parents and grandparents how to "get by". We all plant gardens. We're not rolling in gold down here, but it could be worse (and is elsewhere). Permanent jobs went long ago unless you have a skill the remaining furniture plants really need or are in healthcare jobs. However, most are jobs for lower income bracket - restaurants, hotels, stores, etc.

People aren't spending as much, but still spend what they can.

[sasquatch]

32. I'll never forgive older white Americans for voting for Ronald Reagan

Never.

[musette_sf]

35. + 1

:thumbsup:

[ramapo]

55. What do you mean by older?

Hopefully you are a relative youngster. I'm in my mid-50s. Sadly, it was my generation along with those a bit younger and older who put RR in office. That was the start of our downhill slide.

[tilsammans]

67. Yep. Same here.

I BEGGED people not to vote for Reagan. Even then, I knew it was The Beginning of the End. And it turned out worse than I could have ever imagined.

:rant:

[Enthusiast]

65. But they were stupid.

They're still stupid. They can't help it.

[mdmc]

104. +2

[tonysam]

33. I'll never forgive Congress

for not having the guts to do what is necessary to fix the problems in this country.

They ARE fixable--it's that our on-the-take politicians from BOTH political parties do not have the political will to do it.

[rucky]

34. I think you just led an entire herd of elephants into the room.

Simply put, the USA is not sustainable.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. The USA is sustainable.

It is the American Empire that is not sustainable.

[The2ndWheel]

51. When was there a difference?

[RaleighNCDUer]

60. Not all that long ago. I'm only in my mid-50s and I remember when we

were not an empire. We were not an empire when we sent troops to Korea. We were not an empire when we sent troops into VietNam, though we arguably were by the time we left. In his farewell speech, Eisenhower warned of the dangers of pursuing empire - he referred to it as the MIC, of course. But if we were empire then, he'd have promoted it as most presidents since have done, not spoken against it.

When our military bases were closed in France at the request of the French, we basically said 'OK', and left. Less than ten years later, when Khadafi did the same thing we (virtually) declared war on him. That's the difference between the ally and the empire.

I place the change-over at King Richard the 1st. It firmed up after Hoover died and the FBI became accessible to the power structure. Of course, the CIA has always been a tool of the imperialists but even all their shenanigans could not create the internal security apparatus of empire. Hoover's FBI was his own little fiefdom, but because of that it was not under the control of the empire - he had too much shit on too many people that nobody dared cross him. It was also the time that Bushco came out of the closet and began openly working for empire, with Bush Sr heading the CIA.

But yeah, it hasn't really been all that long.

[rucky]

56. Our economy is now based on the assumption of continuous exponential growth.

Which works until it doesn't.

[RaleighNCDUer]

61. True enough - but the US economy is not the US.

The collapse of the economy does not mean the demise of the US - though it is conceivable it could lead to that, too, i.e. the crackpot secessionist movements.

[newspeak]

118. Didn't you just love when *

told us that our patriotic duty after 9/11, was go about our business and go shop? I feel like I'm in that sci-fi movie, what was it called, "They Live Among Us" or something like that? Anyway, all of those subliminal signs, "consume", "procreate", etc.... The previous administration reminds us all to "buy, buy, buy" and "shop, shop, shop."

[Ezlivin]

121. They Live

[autorank]

36. Here's why things can be different and better

The people who prospered when we built more things did so at a time when the competition had been
wiped out, starting after WWII. Instead of a rational dialog about our future and what we needed to
do, people were duped into believing the corporate media spin on the threat of Communism and the
great battle we carried on by supporting every lousy right wing dictator we could find. This
was in the interests of the anti Communist crusade we were told, but if fact, it was to secure
favorable terms for this or that resource, terms that never included democracy for the people that
the dictators ruled. The owners viewed their workers as no different than the people ruled by
their dictator friends. So by the 70's, the foundation was laid for the great screwing of working
citizens. That was all based on big lies by corporate Quislings and and politicians and faith in the
so-called leaders.

Now we're screwed as a nation but here's what's different. There's little faith in leaders, there's
a general realization that Wall Street screwed the country and that Congress knows that yet bails
them out. There will be awareness that health care "reform" is a crock and won't do much at all.

Corporate media no longer has an exclusive and the people are getting their news from all over.


With awareness of the past big con, there can be a rebuilding based on reality and general interests
instead of those of the elite only. We'll have a shot, in other words.

[bertman]

38. SoCalDem, I agree with a lot of what you said, but I disagree with the part about everybody

starting a business then selling it off. There are millions of small business owners who are a part of their company just like the employees are. These folks live their business and they love their business, or they wouldn't be there. The folks I know who sell their businesses are the folks who are about to retire. Some pass the business to their kids or to employees who want to take over a viable, reputable business. Not many sell out to mega-corps.

When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's, I remember family businesses with employees who made okay money and had a week or two of vacation per year. They didn't get sick pay, but if they were sick the boss might pay them for a few days anyway because the employer knew this worker only missed work when he/she was legitimately ill or a family member was. 401-k was not part of the lexicon when you worked for a small family business. You waited for social security and you saved a nestegg for when it was needed. There was no health insurance unless you were a white-collar type. So the good old days are not always as good as they might seem from the vantage point of 40 years hence.

We could turn this country around simply by adopting a Rebuild America plan that would combine the conversion to an alternative, sustainable-energy society with the conversion to a society that provided medical care for all (think of the professional, good-paying jobs that would be generated, the medical clinics that would be constructed and maintained) and that rebuilt its infrastructure (roads, bridges, rail, seaports, river transport) in the image of "cradle to cradle" utilization of our resources. This could be done with domestic steel and domestic building products including solar, wind, geothermal, tidal and would produce a new wave of engineering and manufacturing that could transform the US back into a clean industrial powerhouse and an example for the rest of the world.

All it would take is a commitment and backing it up with $$$$ by our profligate imperial Congress that is only willing to break our backs with military spending instead of domestic investment.

Will this come to pass? Only if we fight for it now.

[trackfan]

39. Great summation/epitome of the way things are. n/t

[lamp_shade]

40. You describe the town of grew up in. Bicycles, shoes, dresses, mattresses... lots of

manufacturing. Almost nothing is left. The townsfolk are mostly "old money" and "welfare".

[Hannah Bell]

41. my town too. the biggest change was in the 80s, & slow bleed thereafter.

i've also noticed tv ads are less often about everyday consumer products, more often about financial services corps, penis ads, & pr spots for polluting industries.

[hfojvt]

42. you don't seem to have been paying attention

Where is everybody gonna find work? Duh, at the local casino. Casinos mean jobs and prosperity. It's a win-win-win scenario without any losers.

Plus, don't forget the national casino. The DOW just broke 10,000!! Cha-ching! Everybody sing along "we're in the money! we're in the money!"

[Art_from_Ark]

45. Don't forget eBay!

Dick Cheney sez that's where the real economy is! We can all get rich by taking our casino winnings and buying stuff from each other!

[madeline_con]

43. We never did make & provide the necessities of life for the world.

We exploit the world so we can consume the most.

[earth mom]

44. Here are the jobs of the future:

The Military is always hiring for it's ENDLESS WARS:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6777105


The Unemployed work for FREE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6759240


:grr:

[HughBeaumont]

46. Business moved faster than the speed of humans, unfortunately.

All of the easily led angry white men and nervous women out there were too busy buying that "COMM'NISM" "Reds Undah th' Bed" bullshit. "Th' TV sez if I vote Democrat, that's as good as lettin' the secund Bolshuhvik rev'lution in. WHUT will muh neighbors think if I did that?" Then for the next 30 years, they were either too scared or too stupid (or both) to realize that all of their jobs were being shipped overseas and all of their tax dollars were either siphoned off to corporations or used to build a war machine that only invaded and not defended. Just like corporate America, "peacetime" militaries can't just get paid and funded to run drills. They gotta do SOMETHING, so why not bomb small sovereign nations that did nothing to us?

The Repukes who ran this country straight into a chasm, in all of their furious energy to compartmentalize and cheapen business, kind of forgot the notion of replacement. They never replaced the resources they gutted. They never replaced the occupations/careers they destroyed. They never wanted to update the factories to accommodate new technologies. That was never part of their plan. They didn't care about infrastructure, health care, education or social safety nets, because it didn't represent direct profits to THEM. Since they don't see direct benefit to raising our wages, they've stagnated them for three decades straight.

Our retail outlets had to be infinitely larger and our industries and white collar jobs cheaper. Fast, perfect, cheap. Unfortunately, all that does is leave a glut of educated and non-educated workers holding the bag not only for impending and exorbitant college costs, but a job market that's been downright LOUSY for nearly a decade when they're done with this "retraining".

The corporatist's attitude is this: "I got and want EVERYthing. You can TRY to get a smidgen, but at the same time, I'm going to do my absolute godDAMNdest to make SURE you don't get it. This is a one-horse hill, Sonny Jim, and you ain't invading my space!"

For all of it's talk of "we're the most innovative nation", where is the "innovation" happening? NOT HERE. We're simply too expensive. Our third-world work force can do it. For all it's talk of "we're the nation with the most FREEDUM!" . . . sh-yah, right. Lose your job and tell me how free you are. Hell, KEEP your job and tell me how "free" you really are.

Corporations own us lock, stock and barrel, and we're too scared of ARREST, ARREST, ARREST to resist or overtake them. We're so ridiculously tethered to our jobs that there's really no hope of us ever becoming like Europeans. We think marching on Washington when cable networks won't broadcast it is going to do some good. You want to impress me, bust through a gated community and invade the homes of the corporatists. Invade board rooms. Politicians aid and abet them all . . .. the wealthy old man cabal is the source of all this. Force them to start biting bitter pills or we're all doomed.

We live in a nation where a person's success and future is almost completely dependent on how gainfully they're employed.

Replace and rebuild. Wages = consumption. To hell with this "quarterly profits" mindset. Disaster Reaganite Friedman/Hayek Corporatism is over. OVER. That model failed and it should never be brought back. It's time to innovate again and make this nation what it was supposed to be all along - a LEADER, not a nation that injects a steady high of debt, cable "news", flags and crosses.

[RaleighNCDUer]

64. You got it. Look at the headlines today -

Bank of America shows a 2.2 billion dollar loss. Contributing to that loss is 1.2 billion paid out as dividends to preferred stockholders.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 'dividends' is a distribution of PROFITS to investors. If there are no profits, WHY THE FUCK ARE THEY PAYING OUT DIVIDENDS?

Because the corporate imperialists are LOOTING the country. "Please, bail us out! (but only after we pay off our buddies)".

The only thing that Madoff did differently was to eliminate the business middle-man, in the investor-business-financial management-investor cycle.

[Raineyb]

86. Technically, dividends is offset from retained earnings. So basically

what they did was reduce the capital in the company by 1.2 billion dollars. The 2.2 billion dollar loss is an additional offset. At least that's what I'm guessing. Without actually seeing the current balance sheet and the one before that for myself I can't be entirely sure.

There is nothing that says that a company that is losing money cannot pay dividends and many will.

[RaleighNCDUer]

87. That sounds like gobbledy-speak for 'paying off your investors before

paying off your creditors'. May be legal, but is sure as fuck unethical.

[Raineyb]

89. I'm just telling you what it is.

That's how it's treated in the books. When they close out the nominal accounts, the loss is closed out from retained earnings as is the cash dividends. They are two separate entities. You don't subtract the dividends from your revenues to get profits. So it's not like the payout of dividends is included in their loss statement. It's a reduction in equity.

[quakerboy]

97. I think that last sentance is the point

Yeah, they will. But should they be?

[Raineyb]

100. That of course is an entirely different story.

I would argue that it would be more wise to not pay the dividends and keep the money for operations. But it would appear that the current argument is to pay the dividends to keep the stock price up as people are inclined to dump a stock if it stops paying dividends.

This is where the tax code could do some good. If as was the case once upon a time, the tax code had a high enough marginal tax rate that at a certain point it would pay to keep the money in the business rather than paying out dividends we wouldn't be in half the mess we're in now I would think. But then since the people who make the law seem to be under the impression that giving people who are already rich more money to burn on nonsense is the way to grow the economy and the idea of actually making those who use more of the commons pay more is an anathema, I suspect the needed changes in tax law won't be coming any time soon.

[SoCalDem]

93. As recently as the 70's, ordinary companies actually had things called

profit-sharing..where they gave their EMPLOYEES a percentage of the profits once a year.. this was not a secret bonus given to the ones the boss liked best.. it was across the board to all employees. .It was a thank-you for doing your share to make the company profitable, and it made employees loyal to their company and gave them incentive to cut waste themselves. It does not take a genius to understand that profit is based on what the company does not have to spend for wasted electricity or water or supplies, so employees had a vested interest in working economically. It benefited THEM ...and they also got regularly scheduled pay raises (until the wage-freezes that came along)

[truedelphi]

134. If it is any consolation to you, Hugh,the nations we plan on

Bombing (Or at least having our drones bombing) are no longer little places. Pakistan has 200 million people. Iran could end up being a global nightmare, especially if China and Russia should get uppity about our taking that action.

[JohnyCanuck]

48. The Twilight of Money

(Cross posted from the editorials forum)

I’ve commented before in these essays that one of the least constructive habits of contemporary thought is its insistence on the uniqueness of the modern experience. It’s true, of course, that fossil fuels have allowed the world’s industrial societies to pursue their follies on a more grandiose scale than any past empire has managed, but the follies themselves closely parallel those of previous societies, and tracking the trajectories of these past examples is one of our few useful sources of guidance if we want to know where the current versions are headed.

The metastasis of money through every aspect of life in the modern industrial world is a good example. While no past society, as far as we know, took this process as far as we have, the replacement of wealth with its own abstract representations is no new thing. As Giambattista Vico pointed out back in the 18th century, complex societies move from the concrete to the abstract over their life cycles, and this influences economic life as much as anything else. Just as political power begins with raw violence and evolves toward progressively more subtle means of suasion, economic activity begins with the direct exchange of real wealth and evolves through a similar process of abstraction: first, one prized commodity becomes the standard measure for all other kinds of wealth; then, receipts that can be exchanged for some fixed sum of that commodity become a unit of exchange; finally, promises to pay some amount of these receipts on demand, or at a fixed point in the future, enter into circulation, and these may end up largely replacing the receipts themselves.

SNIP

At the same time, there’s a trap hidden in the convenience of abstractions: the further you get from the concrete realities, the larger the chance becomes that the concrete realities may not actually be there when needed. History is littered with the corpses of regimes that let their power become so abstract that they could no longer counter a challenge on the fundamental level of raw violence; it’s been said of Chinese history, and could be said of any other civilization, that its basic rhythm is the tramp of hobnailed boots going up stairs, followed by the whisper of silk slippers going back down. In the same way, economic abstractions keep functioning only so long as actual goods and services exist to be bought and sold, and it’s only in the pipe dreams of economists that the abstractions guarantee the presence of the goods and services. Vico argued that this trap is a central driving force behind the decline and fall of civilizations; the movement toward abstraction goes so far that the concrete realities are neglected. In the end the realities trickle away unnoticed, until a shock of some kind strikes the tower of abstractions built atop the void the realities once filled, and the whole structure tumbles to the ground.

We are uncomfortably close to such a possibility just now, especially in our economic affairs. Over the last century, with the assistance of the economic hypercomplexity made possible by fossil fuels, the world’s industrial nations have taken the process of economic abstraction further than any previous civilization. On top of the usual levels of abstraction – a commodity used to measure value (gold), receipts that could be exchanged for that commodity (paper money), and promises to pay the receipts (checks and other financial paper) – contemporary societies have built an extraordinary pyramid of additional abstractions. Unlike the pyramids of Egypt, furthermore, this one has its narrow end on the ground, in the realm of actual goods and services, and widens as it goes up.

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2009/10/twilight-of-money.html

[mimitabby]

49. fine american craftsmanship and higher fuel prices

that's something that could turn the economy a bit. If fuel prices go up, it will no longer be such a bargain to import your cheap crap from China. This will give Americans the opportunity to become craftsmen once more.

[glitch]

52. commondreams.org had a relevant article yesterday on this issue

Ellen Brown:
Reviving the Local Economy With Publicly Owned Banks
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/10/15-4

[northernlights]

53. it is worse...and better...than you have put it

This 55 year old did go back to school to learn a new trade. I may or may not continue. The university advisor (sales exec) blatantly lied to me in ways that drove up the cost to get the new degree even while the wages (medical lab tech in health care) are being pressured down, tricked me into the debt trap, and has me on the brink of financial ruin. My ultimate decision whether or not to continue hinges in part on whether the health insurance industry is beaten severely back and Obama makes good on his promise to support wages of health care workers.

One of my young fellow students was lured into the student debt trap in a big way. Not the $40k you quote, but $80K, much of it private loans, and only halfway through his degree. He is now waking up to the fact that Med Lab Tech will not support the kind of debt he now has hanging over him for life. I don't think he has what it takes to made it to physician -- the grades aren't there. And the debt level by then would be astronomical. He's only about 20. I feel so bad for him because as far as I can see, his life is already over.

On the positive side, I recently started working on "the dark side" in a financial company that moved its call center nearby. They just told us they are bringing their paper processing back home from India. They discovered it cost more to do biz there than they anticipated. They also have just discovered that India is bordered by a bitterly hated enemy. And they've just discovered that they both have nukes. I advised our center manager that they can also add al qaeda into that mix. He didn't look too happy, lol. Anyway, half their India employees took off in the middle of the day to join a demonstration down the street from their facility. The demonstration turned into a riot and a significant number of employees failed to return to work that day (or possibly ever).

They are now waking up to a new reality here back home. They thought they were getting highly educated, experienced employees who would be grateful to have any low pay job. Instead, they find highly educated, experienced employees who are enraged at the way we've been effed over for the last 10 years...in particular by the finance industry. And they are finding that many of their employees are actually smarter than they are, and outsmarting them every step of the way, lol.

It's called karma kickback. Unofficially known as shit on a boomerang. And at least in my little corner, I'm starting to see the shit hitting the fan that faces them. I would have preferred not to have endured the suffering of the past decade. But, I'll take my pleasure in the little places I can find some. :D

[Soylent Brice]

54. amazing and intelligent post.

K&R

imagine, there's a whole generation out there that has no idea how we got here. a whole generation that has grown up with this going on and most of which are numb to it.

[PassingFair]

58. K & R ....we care little for our own quality of life in the long run...

[sofa king]

59. I'm not so worried about the manufacturing part.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that it's the manufacturing which is going to cut the nads off of our corporate oligarchs pretty soon now.

Already all of the necessary advancements and theory is in place. We have the computing power to design and program, we have a new fourth basic electronic component, the memristor, which will result in another exponential leap in computing while delivering power savings, we have highly advanced printing and lithography techniques, we have CAD-operated laser cutters, and we have a massive store of refined raw materials waiting in our landfills. We are simply waiting for someone to put it all together and turn the idea loose.

So it's only a matter of time before every city street corner has small factories which can build themselves, then build what's needed and then retool themselves to build what's next. Within a few generations, they'll migrate from street corners to the basement, then to a corner of the basement next to the water heater, where they will produce power, fresh water, fuel, and the things we need to live a modern life. The people who manage them (hopefully everyone) will have to be programmers, engineers, chemists and environmentalists, all at the same time, which is not as difficult as it sounds with 12,000 graduate programs already available nationwide.

Once we own the means of production, the Wal-Marts of the world will have nothing left to do but figure out how to shave us bald by selling designs, suing everyone for copyright violations, and managing the money we make, like the banks are doing right now. But even if they get all our money, we will still have the ability to produce what we need, for ourselves and for others. Public utilities will become less and less necessary, which will make large governments less necessary, and we will all, in theory, be able to control our own destinies either through peaceful and wise management of our local communities, or through automated insurgency and revolution.

The easiest way to jump-start all that is to invest a shitload of capital into human exploration of the planets, which will require the same sort of factories to create livable environments on the Moon and Mars.

So there. That's my little Robert Heinlein moment for the day. I hope the man or woman who can put it all together reads this and is inspired.

[Locrian]

62. house of cards

agriculture ---> manufacturing (ie industrial revolution) ---> financal "revolution" ---> ?

What is most important to life?
Where are the jobs going (as the number of jobs shrink)?
And where is all the money now?

See the problem?????

[treestar]

63. The media does not give us a good education, so I don't trust the

conclusions I would make from the media. We have a bread basket in the midwest and may be the richest country because of that. We export food, and that never gets set aside by progress.

Progress creates jobs, too, and more comfortable ones. We have fewer people who have to be miners and the like. Maybe someday no one will have to do it.

The media tries to get us to be negative about our chances. That is so employers have the upper hand in job negotiations. But it's all psychological.

For instance we pay for our children to go to college and get job trained to someone will hire them. How they roped us into that is a miracle. We should make them train us for the job - they can't run the company without trained people, and big companies do training where they have to - but we let them off easy by paying for most of it ourselves.

[NAO]

66. Moses? Jesus? John Lennon? Someone predicted our current situation.

A great teacher of mankind, possibly Moses, or Jesus, or maybe it was John Lennon once said:



"The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country."

"To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed."

"They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilised nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe."

"In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes."

"In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations."


and he also said,


"It is enough to mention the commercial crises that by their periodical return put the existence of the entire bourgeois society on its trial, each time more threateningly."

In these crises, a great part not only of the existing products, but also of the previously created productive forces, are periodically destroyed."

"In these crises, there breaks out an epidemic that, in all earlier epochs, would have seemed an absurdity — the epidemic of over-production."

"Society suddenly finds itself put back into a state of momentary barbarism; it appears as if a famine, a universal war of devastation, had cut off the supply of every means of subsistence; industry and commerce seem to be destroyed; and why?"

"Because there is too much civilisation, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce..."

"And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones."

"That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented."


TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH

[treestar]

68. The media does not give us a good education, so I don't trust the

conclusions I would make from the media. We have a bread basket in the midwest and may be the richest country because of that. We export food, and that never gets set aside by progress.

Progress creates jobs, too, and more comfortable ones. We have fewer people who have to be miners and the like. Maybe someday no one will have to do it. The media tries to get us to be negative about our chances. That is so employers have the upper hand in job negotiations. But it's all psychological. For instance we pay for our children to go to college and get job trained to someone will hire them. How they roped us into that is a miracle. We should make them train us for the job - they can't run the company without trained people, and big companies do training where they have to - but we let them off easy by paying for most of it ourselves.

[AllyCat]

69. Corporations like to have us start out in debt. Debt makes us more compliant workers

Student loans are just the beginning.

[katty]

71. exactly!

[RagAss]

75. "What's Next?"...there is no next.....This is The End.

[myrna minx]

79. K&R n/tr

[Neecy]

82. Totally agree

Take a look at what some of our "colonies" are building for us:

http://www.alibaba.com

Here's a quick sample: TV's, DVD players, cell phones, MP3 players, refrigerators, bathroom vanities, solar panels*, industrial chemicals and compounds, pet food, building materials, shoes, jewelery, lighters, ceramics, candles, computers and laptops, wind turbines*, flatware, flash drives and SD cards, auto parts, home appliances, luggage, clocks and watches, scooters, toys, recycled glass-rubber-pastic*, webcams, farm machinery, plumbing supplies, cosmetics...and about a zillion other things.

*Remember the green jobs we're all supposed to get? Check out the number of Chinese factories that are churning out solar and wind technology, recycled materials, etc. Looks like we get to do the research, they get to produce...

For example, look at the Solar Panels category. The manufacturers/exporters are listed by country.

China (mainland): 51,444
Hong Kong: 1,321
Taiwan: 956
US: 930
India: 434
Singapore: 272
Germany: 185
Thailand: 179

[Grinchie]

83. Oooh, but Productivity is up %15!! Lets suck the savings out in Profits!

I'm old enough to remember Metal Shop, Electronics, Print Shop, Photo Shop, and many other Industrial Arts curricula in my old Junior High School. I learned about the intricacies of the printed word, the nitty gritty details of actually loading my own film canisters, and developing and printing the negatives into 8x10 glossies. I learned how to set up ancient printing presses that could take off your hand if you were not carefule, and I learned how to clean them after a batch of high school year book pages had been printed. I learned how to bind books and trim them using machines that could cut a 4 x 4 piece of wood.

I learned to melt metals and create sand castings, I learned to make tools that I still use to this day, despite the extraordinary abuse I gave them while growing up. They are like old friends from a forgotten age, when our schools actually had vestiges of Industrial Production remaining in society. I learned how to operate drill presses, lathes, band saws, milling machines, sheet metal brakes, and all the rest of the anciliary knowledge that would allow me to say, yes I can with total honesty.

Sure the tools were ancient cast me downs, but they still worked, and the principles are the same, despite the fact that they are now Numerical Controlled, and repeat the program over and over again.

I made my own transformers, and learned how to not kill myself working with line voltage in Electric shop. I learned the basics of architectural drafting with a real T-Square, 90` and 45` Triangle, and drew many detailed technical drawings along with 20 other eager to learn kids. This was Public School in my day, and I did all of the above before the age 13.

While the printing presses are now antiques, rotting in some scrapyard, replaced by Desktop Publishing and laser printers, I still think that foundation was important. The metal shops are dismantled, replaced with Corporate funded Auto Shop, where the primary goal is to teach people how to use the appropriate data port for the diagnostic computer.

The sad thing is that we have been taught that these Old methods of production no longer work, yet nobody understands that we shipped much of the machinery overseas for the peopns in the third world to use in the same, primitive way to crank out the widgets we depend on. Even if we wanted to used old tools and methods ourselves, we have a very difficult time finding the tools, since they no longer are manufactured, and are sometimes just as expensive as a so called "Newer, Better" model with more, virtually unneeded "Features".

As a kid, I was able to work safely around dangerous machine tools and not lose a finger or other extremity, but today it appears that the can't be said about our suurent generation of children. They are so frantic and hyperactive due to high energy, sugar and starch based diets, that they can't sit still for more than one minute, and then they crash when the sugar runs out, turning into tired, depressed, neurotic creatures until their next Pepsi or Prozac.

As far as productivity goes, we have 2% of the population now producing 100% of the food. Of this 2%, they are abandoning diversity and focusing on the big payoffs from the government in terms of subsidies. The dealy part aof this is that the Productivity is based on pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers and machinery that is unsustainable in the long run. Unsustainable due to the amount of oil it consumes, the pollution is causes, the health issues it creates, the biodiversity it destroys, and the number of people it displaces off the farm. Farmers no longer walk their fields without the understanding that they are walking in polluted, toxic deserts, and that prolonged exposure is most likely setting them up for cancer down the road.

Just ask people if they Garden, and 90% of the time they'll claim that plants die under their care. Why is this? Plants are the easiest thing in the world to take care of, yet most people simply refuse to believe it. Instead of asking "Why did that plant suffer", they just give up entirely. They buy a plant that is not suited for their area, and expect it to flourish like a native weed.

I believe that I have found the answer regarding the comfortable lifestyle posed by the OP. First of all, simplify. Stop consuming so fucking much. Stop believing the propaganda that made Twitter a household name overnight. Believe it or not, Twitter will be the last thing on your mind when the water supply shuts down, or you don't have enough to eat. Maybe you'll get a tweet to not flush your precious water away down the toilet, but I doubt it will help much.

Second, be entirely skeptical regarding any claims made by anyone with an agenda. Behave like a feral animal when it comes to any new products. Before you buy anything, ensure that you entirely trust the vendor trough honest research and understanding. Never submit to "Must act Now", or threats that it is a "One time offer". Any sort of pressure like that is a sign to run away as fast as you can, and get to a spot where you can analyze the proposition for value.

Thirdly, focus on Value instead of price. This is very difficult to explain, but it boils down to a combination of Ethics, Quality, and Sacrifice. Ethically, I will focus my efforts on buying things made in America. This is easier said than done. In many cases, I will buy a used, older item that was once made in America, because of the simple fact that I can fix it. It used real metal, and was built in such a way to prevent costly returns and warranty costs to the original manufacturer. Just think about it.. When you return an item to Walmart or Home Depot, they return your money, no questions asked. Where does that merchandise go? How does WalMart or Home Depot deal with the mountains of cheap chinese crap that doesn't pass the most basic quality requirements? It most likely goes into a big pile and is repackaged and shipped to mexico or some other state.

Fourth. Expand your mind. Learn to read food labels. Take your time. Allocate enough time to be careful consumers, Allocate enough time to breathe.

Fifth. Evaluate your Job. Are you happy? Are you constantly learning new things while on the Job? If not, ask yourself WHY!. Do you understand the business, or are you a mindless drone following a script day in and day out with time for lunch? Are you trapped there because you MUST make the payments on your home? Have you considered cutting costs and working for a low overhead employer, such as yourself?

Sixth. Learn about your own body. Learn to listen to the warning signs of stress, disease and malnutrition. Drink lots of water, breathe lots of fresh air, and get the furnaces of the body roaring again. Stop eating primarily high energy and starchy foods and get back to foods that actually provide for your brain matter, cellular regrowth and essential minerals that are nearly completely absent in modern processed foods. Remove stress from your life. If stress is caused by debt, destroy the debt as a first priority. Always have a years worth of cash available to live on in case of emergency. Pay yourself first without fail.

As far as school goes, I have not seen anything in College that makes the cost worthwhile. The Universities today teach very little in the way of useful skills that are not obsolete as soon as you walk off campus. They do have some benefits, such as great libraries, they fact remains that the libraries are open to anyone who has the desire to go, so why not go on your own and create your own curricula? Thats what I do, and it has not let me down yet, and it doesn't cost me anything. It also helps if you have the desire to learn something new everyday, even if you don't see any use for it at the moment. Trust me, everything you learn will come back in mysterious ways in the future. Sometimes, you will read something at random in a book, and then see the very same topic in mainstream media in the headlines the next day or two. This has been happening for me with greater frequency these days, and it's pretty amazing to me and my partner when we both share it.

True learning does not occur in the University. It occurs in real life, when the problems are reinforced by actually solving a problem. Take back your power and pose more problems to yourself and start learning again.

I say forget about working for somebody else for money. Work for yourself for a better life. When you are out of debt, money becomes just another tool to use to make life better, but it's always better to be able to say, hey dollar, I'm happy to have you, but I think I can manage this on my own, and I'll save you for a rainy day. It's amazing how much your savings love this attitude.

[Joe Fields]

84. we don't make televisions, tennis shoes, cell phones, we have lost an

entire steel industry, we don't even mill the lumber we cut down in our own forests....

[winyanstaz]

85. We need the factories to re-open and to buy american made products..

We used to have tariffs on things brought in to keep the prices equal...but not anymore.
Its time to bring the troops home. This will save us billions right now.
Throw out any business that is outsourcing (they are no longer an american business if their base of operations and manufacturing is overseas and they do not hire americans in my opinion..regardless of where their "office" is.)
The media needs to be returned to the people.
All mega large companies need to be nationalized, investigated, and then returned to small business size and then returned to the people.
We have laws against monopolies and these need to be enforced.
It is past time to legalize hemp which will supply goods for manufacturing and will reopen the factories and farmers can grow a crop that will benefit us all.
It is past time to return the farms to the little farmers and to throw out all chemical additives and gene manipulation to our food supplies and chemicals in our water. These practices are harmful to the people and the planet and the people that are doing this need to be treated as criminals.
It is overdue to pass a law by the people and for the people...that any congressperson, or public employee caught either selling out the public to special interests or harming the people they are supposed to be protecting and serving..shall imminently be brought before a civilian court (one that only deals with government officials that break the law as this letting them police themselves is a stupid idea in the first place) and they should lose their job and be ineligible for future employment in the government sector.
Any law that allows troops from other countries or organizations onto American soil for any reason needs to be wiped off the books. Anyone, including the government hiring private armies needs to be fired, fined and thrown in jail for treason.
Anyone harboring an illegal alien and giving them housing and jobs needs to be mega fined.
Waste also needs to be dealt with in that any public or government official caught stealing, padding, etc needs to be also permanently fired and barred from further employment.
This includes the Military.
We also need to release all non-violent drug offenders and all political prisoners at once and end this war on drugs, the war on the working american and the wars based on lies. This alone will save us billions. We will also need the room in prison for the crooks in office.
We need to stop turning child molesters and rapists lose..period.
We also need a way for the public to recall at any time any government official, military leader or public servant or repel any law they write by means of an instant vote by the people.
As quickly as possible we need to return to the rule of the Constitution (even though this means we will be listed as possible "terrorists" for defending the Constitution)..and insuring equality in ALL matters to ALL of the people.
ALL money now going out to other nations needs to be stopped at once and that money used to rebuild America first!
We need to dismantle the nazi like government organizations built on fear and lies and return to being a nation of free people.
It is most important to return the right to our own treasury to America and to throw out the Fed and their criminal enterprise that has raped our great land and stolen our hard earned wealth.
The CITIZENS need the right to investigate what is going on in the government when the courts fail to do their jobs.
These are just my opinions on the matter...but I believe it needs to be done NOW.

[Gman2]

88. Sounds REALLY horrible, but for a few items.

Transportation costs have risen, prompting manufacturing to become increasingly local on light, bulky items in particular. Even toyota and such, build a plant here, to service here. the dollar is falling, in comparison to the new standard currencies. We will have to focus on engineers rebuilding our society. A category something like ergonomic process engineer. Instead of cramming humans into stupid boxes, if you make work suit humans, instead of making humans become property of the corp., it would be huge.

[BR_Parkway]

90. Well put - I was just reading another article contrasting a town from several decades

ago and today - what a testament to modern, unregulated Capitalism

http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/4938

[SoCalDem]

110. Once suburban sprawl starts, the rest is inevitable

all of a sudden "downtown" becomes icky, and once customers desert the town, so do the merchants..once businesses leave, so does the tax base, because these shopping centers are very sneaky, and try their darndest to build in unincorporated places...just outside areas where taxes are more..and then houses crop up closer and and closer to the shopping..rinse & repeat..

and the downtowns become weed magnets and crumble away

[CrispyQ]

92. When Bush was in office, my husband stated

that the best way to prepare for Bush America (& now Obama America), is to be able to live on an $8 an hour job & hope to hell you never get sick. We were considering buying a slightly bigger house, but, instead, decided to pay off the small house we're in. At the time, I reluctantly agreed, but now, I'm so glad we did! If we had to, we could live on $8 an hour jobs. In the meantime, it's provided us with options we wouldn't have had if we had a mortgage.

I have friends who have ramped up their life styles by spending the equity in their houses & now they are at their credit max & terrified of losing their jobs. Many, who never had problems finding jobs before, are finding that being 50+ is a hindrance they never before considered.

BTW, I am sick & fucking tired of upgrading my skill set every 2-3 years. I know it's a necessary evil, but all I've read the past year is textbooks & I long for the days when I could spend that time reading sci fi. Still, I consider myself incredibly fortunate in this time of economic downturn.

[Greyhound]

94. All except the highest paying, useless jobs that produce nothing, of course.

We totally bought into the absurd notion that we could base an economy on collecting fees for moving money around.

Fully 1/3 of our total economy is now based on parasites extracting as much money as they can from the real economy.
:kick: & R

[quakerboy]

96. Part of the problem is we really dont need to work to exist

With the technology we have, to feed and house and supply the needs of the existing people, we have no need of a 40 hour work week. If everyone were to live modestly, I suspect we wouldn't really even need to average a 20 hour week. But we put our value in arbitrary money, rather than the actual value of the actions we take and the things we do.

[SoCalDem]

99. and we take on incredible debt, so we end up working to service the debt

Take a look at most suburbs in the daytime..empty.. People are slaving away so their dog & cat have a cushy crash pad, and then they spend all weekend working to keep up the place:(
A lot of their money also goes for transportation to get back and forth to the place where they make the money to afford the car and the house for their pets, who allow them to sleep there so they can rest up for the next day's slog :rofl:

[quakerboy]

105. Perhaps it is time for a jubalee

I know it would throw complete chaos onto the system, but lets forgive all the debts, everyone keeps what they have in their hands, and we start over. There's lots of good reasons not to do it, and lots of questions about how to apply it, but I think I might just favor it anyway.

[Fire1]

114. But for the COST of living, you'd be correct. Should the cost

of living become commensurate with modest means then you might be on to something.

[quakerboy]

119. explain further, Im not sure i get what you are saying

and If I do, I'm not sure you get what I am saying.

What I am saying is that with the technology we have today, if we all divided up the work that is actually necessary to feed, clothe, house, entertain, etc all of the people that we have today, there really is no need for us to work or live the way we do. We have within our grasp the ability to live as a world of leisure, with time enough for work, family, and fun, and yet to still live in relative plenty. But instead, we live as if the only way what we have is worth something is if someone else lacks it.

[Fire1]

122. Miscommunication for sure. But you'll not find utopia in the midst

of capitalism. We may have the capability but that's not quite enough.

[quakerboy]

123. That I agree with wholeheartedly

at times I wonder if one could work out a useable system wherein everyone pitches in a bare minimum of time and all the necessities are taken care of, communism for the basics, but then have an overlying capitalist system for the luxuries.

[Fire1]

126. The most ideal economic systems usually are a mixture. n/t

[Odin2005]

115. The myth of scarcity is the justification for corporatism.

In reality there is no scarcity, their is abundance. But Corporate Capitalism requires the mindset of scarcity using advertisement. Business leaders had this all thought out back in the 20s when talk of a post-scarcity society by progressive types spooked said business leaders.

[mother earth]

101. K & R, you are right, we are screwed with no calvary in sight.

[Fire1]

113. "Calvary," sweetness, is where Christ was crucified. The word

you're looking for it "Cavalry."

[mother earth]

127. Hell, thank you, dear. I knew it didn't sound right, but you

knew what I meant, what a red face I have. :blush:

[WinkyDink]

107. What's next = riots. Mayhem. Who couldn't have foreseen all this, when it was apparent we weren't

MAKING anything?? And I live in Bethlehem, where the very land that held the blast furnaces and mills is now home to a Sands Casino.

Good luck with THAT. Literally.

[SoCalDem]

111. We left Michigan City, Indiana in 1977, and it was already starting there

WR Grace was a big hulking empty shell,..so was Pullman, and at least one mill had closed by then.. They probably only have the prison now :(

[Fire1]

112. Unbelievable but houses are still being built in my area here in

Michigan and mcmansions, at that. Somebody's got some money. But everything you stated is on point. We were talking about this at the nail shop today.

[SoCalDem]

125. same here, but it's probably a left-over situation because of contracts

in place before the meltdown. The lawsuits would probably cost more than to just finish them.. Once finished, these houses (around here) sit unsold and empty..often vandalized..

In fact one community of new unsold houses in So Cal (I forget where) were BULLDOZED, to avoid having them squatted in/vandalized..:grr:

When it comes to construction business, there is sometimes NO sense.. The base hospital here was completely remodeled JUST BEFORE THEY SHUT THE BASE DOWN.. in fact, they were still inside painting, after the base closed..and when the painters were done...they padlocked the place..and there it still sits..almost 10 years later:(

[blues90]

128. Much of this began in the 60's , yet what did have then ?

We were in Vietnam and were not really paying attention to what was going on around us.

They already had 7/11's and a few fast food joints and began the malls on a smaller scale.

It was the beginning of the wife going to work just to save money and have extra for many people.

They were already beginning to outsource jobs and import pure junk. This did not stand out at the time as a warning yet it was becoming evident.

Key punch machines became the wave of the future for many females my age back then.

People continued to spread out far and wide and it really was not long before everything that was once independant was bought up and tossed aside by the grand old chain stores.

By the 70's I could see what was coming and by 1980 I knew it was finally here to stay . Now we are screwed , no amount of green jobs can change this. It's like a runaway nuke now who knows where it will land.

[TheKentuckian]

129. Yup, the same "TPS" reports done by dozens is probably over

I think it should be pretty clear there isn't enough for everyone to do at all. There is nowhere near the "fat" to maintain a service economy and nothing to replace it.

[Agony]

130. Yeah...

What exactly is a comfortable life style?

primary productivity is where it's at - for me - I got lucky

We used to be a nation of farmers, but that means dirt under your fingernails.

like you said, "all questions & no answers yet.."

Thanks for taking the time to write that down.

Agony

[jtedder]

132. Where Are the Jobs?

I went to see Paul Krugman in Manchester, Vermont on October 10th. After speaking for 45 minutes to an hour, he started taking questions from the audience. A man a few feet away from me stood up and asked him where the jobs were going to come from for his children and grandchildren.

Paul answered that he didn't know, but green jobs might be an answer. He also said that something might come along that we haven't invented yet,that will revolutionize things similar to computing and the internet. He just didn't know for sure.

I don't think we can wait for something to be invented that doesn't exist yet, but green jobs could put people to work now.

Why, as far as I can see, is nothing being done to create green jobs and put people back to work?

We spent billions of dollars to save the casinos on wall street. Can't we spend a few billion to put some people back to work?

John Tedder, Greenwich NY

[SoCalDem]

133. Green jobs ARE being created.. and FAST

IN CHINA!!

our "powers that be" are perfectly content to use Chinese cheap labor to MAKE the stuff, and then we'll have "walmart" import it for us... :grr:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6805574&mesg_id=6805574

EDIT.. forgot to Welcome you to DU :hi:

[jtedder]

135. Green Jobs

Thank you for welcoming me to DU. I have always liked the little smiley face people. How long can he wave like that without his arm getting tired?

The United States passed a $787 billion stimulus package. Why hasn't some of this money gone to creating some green jobs? Why hasn't more of this money been spent?

Goldman Sachs is going to give out more money in bonuses than the U.S. Government is going to spend creating green jobs.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

136. If we had universal healthcare, available to all and if we chose to spend

our money on things that benefit all citizens : healthcare, higher education, childcare, senior living options, etc. we would have an almost endless need for employment in fields that would actually be rewarding - caring for one another. The "Nanny State" is a better, cleaner, more achievable answer for full employment than all the pie in the sky hoping for a return of manufacturing or some dream that we're all going to be happily building windmills or selling homegrown organic vegetables to each other.

If we invested in the Nanny State, we would need lots of new construction for: daycare facilities, clinics, hospitals, schools, assisted living facilities, etc. We would create tons of jobs in the construction sector. Then, the jobs that would be created in caring for one another as teachers, health providers, care givers, etc. should have decent pay scales. If that were the case, then we would create demand once again for consumer products and shore up the other service industries since we would once again be able to purchase goods, buy houses, eat out at restaurants, etc.

The answer is so obvious, it's staring you right in the face. Use our tax dollars to INVEST IN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

[Quantess]

138. I agree that we need to invest in the American people.

But don't call it "Nanny State". The term Nanny State already has a meaning, which is an overprotective government that tries to tell you what you can and can't do. Nanny State gets in your business, and assumes you can't make wise decisions on your own. Examples: no medical marijuana for dying senior citizens; banning of sex toys; requiring all bicyclists to wear helmets, etc.

I agree with what you are saying, but nobody will support it if you call it "Nanny State".

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

139. I was using Nanny State somewhat ironically

I know it has negative connotations - too bad! If only the government WAS analagous to a person who cared about my welfare, nourished me, was there to comfort me in illness, give me my blanky, etc. I often joke about how much I wish we had a Nanny State when others use it as a perjorative term.

But, thanks for agreeing with the major point I was making aside from the semantics.

[Quantess]

140. Oh, I see. I missed that.

I always thought that the concept of an (over)protective government tends to be more of a RW tendency. But I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder.