Report: Unsafe abortions kill 70,000 annually

[The Sushi Bandit]

http://www.physorg.com/news174734373.html

AP) -- Increased contraceptive use has led to fewer abortions worldwide, but deaths from unsafe abortion remain a severe problem, killing 70,000 women a year, a research institute reported Tuesday in a major global survey.

More than half the deaths, about 38,000, are in sub-Saharan Africa, which was singled out as the region with by far the lowest rates of contraceptive use and the highest rates of unintended pregnancies.

The report, three years in the making, was compiled by the New York-based Guttmacher Institute, which supports abortion rights and is a leading source of data on abortion-related trends. Researchers examined data from individual countries and multinational organizations.

The institute's president, Sharon Camp, said she was heartened by the overall trends since Guttmacher conducted a similar survey in 1999, yet expressed concern about the gap revealed in the new report.

"In almost all developed countries, abortion is safe and legal," she said. "But in much of the developing world, abortion remains highly restricted, and unsafe abortion is common and continues to damage women's health and threaten their survival."

The report calls for further easing of developing nations' abortion laws, a move criticized by Deirdre McQuade, a policy director with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' Secretariat for Pro-Life Activities.

"We need to be much more creative in assisting women with supportive services so they don't need to resort to the unnatural act of abortion," she said.

Guttmacher estimated previously that the number of abortions worldwide fell from 45.5 million in 1995 to 41.6 million in 2003 - the latest year for which global figures were available.

[tnlefty]

1. I hope that this goes better than a thread last night on the

same topic. 70,000, but they're just women dying.....

Good luck.

[kanrok]

2. 40 million plus abortions worldwide

But they're just fetuses.

[tnlefty]

3. And your point is what exactly?

That a zygote or fetus has more rights than a woman? What about the men who impregnate women...do you have a penalty in mind for them?

edit: Hidden profile and male...I only wish that you could be pregnant!

[kanrok]

6. You wouldn't understand my point.

Are you proud that there are 40 million abortions per year?

[beam me up scottie]

7. Is tnlefty personally responsible for 40 million abortions per year?

I'm not ashamed of it, I just wish more women had access to birth control so they wouldn't have to have the surgical procedure.

[uppityperson]

61. tnlefty HAS been pretty busy recently. eom

[beam me up scottie]

64. HA! I was going to preface that with Bill Murray's famous line from Tootsie: "You slut."

But I figured the mods already had their hands full. :P

[Odin2005]

231. LOL, you never fail to crack me up, BMUS!

:loveya:

[beam me up scottie]

279. Odin!

You sure do know how to make an arrival, I love how you just jump right in, damn the torpedoes!

:hug:

[Odin2005]

295. Thank you!

:D

Unfortunately this character is being rather stupid. Must be the same kind of person that never really understands the basics of natural selection but acts like an authority anyway. :eyes:

[niyad]

10. we understand your point perfectly--women don't matter, only zygotes

[kanrok]

18. Yes, of course...you know me so well

BTW, at what point do these zygotes become more than just a collection of cells to you?

5 weeks?

10 weeks?

15 weeks?

Ever?

[Scout]

44. when they start to pay taxes n/t

[beam me up scottie]

51. !

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

62. When do they for you? Should an abortion ever be done, or be legal?

those are 3 separate questions and I'd like to see what you think.
When for you?
Should an abortion ever be done?
Should an abortion ever be legal?

thank you.

[Name removed]

247. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

132. Birth.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

240. Let's see if you can answer....

When do they for you? Should an abortion ever be done, or be legal?

those are 3 separate questions and I'd like to see what you think.
When for you?
Should an abortion ever be done?
Should an abortion ever be legal?

[Feron]

12. Better abortion than a woman being forced to continue...

a pregnancy she doesn't want.

The reasons for terminating are diverse and it's a decision best left to the woman.

Ideally birth control would always work rendering abortion obsolete. Ideally access to contraception would be easy. But of course, the world is an imperfect place. So abortion is there as a last resort.

Abortion isn't something to be proud of, but it's nothing to be ashamed of either. It's just a medical tool available for those who choose to use it.

[armyowalgreens]

13. Should we be sad?

I don't get it.

[Maru Kitteh]

15. Explain your point so we can all understand.

I AM proud that however many abortions as are desired by women are provided every year.

I am HAPPY that women desirous of this simple medical procedure are able to obtain it when they feel it is needed.

[kanrok]

17. I've always assumed

That both sides of this issue found abortions to be a negative thing.

When someone says they're "proud" that abortions occur, then it kind of ends the discussion with me.

[roody]

22. If the abortion is safe and legal, it means that the women have rights.

Rights are a good thing.

[kanrok]

24. Rights are great.

Do we extend them to fetuses?

I mean, when do their rights begin?

Is there a time that you feel comfortable saying they have rights?

Is there a time when they are not just a collection of cells?

[Lars39]

26. Is there a time when *you* are actually going to give birth?

[kanrok]

27. I see...

Males cannot have opinions about abortion.

Duly noted.

Now, do you have a point, or are you just here to argue?

[Lars39]

28. Back atcha.

[niyad]

33. men can have opinions about anything, but until it is THEIR bodies being hosts to parasites

THEIR bodies suffering gestational diabetes, the possibility of toxic shock, alterations in the body structure, etc., etc, then I kindly suggest that they have no say in the matter.

are YOU willing to endure pregnancy for nine months? the movie "junior" was fiction, you know.

[kanrok]

38. Specious argument

It would be like me asking you if you wouldn't mind going back in the womb and having your body parts torn asunder.

See! It works both ways!

[beam me up scottie]

52. "going back in the womb and having your body parts torn asunder."

Gee, I bet I can guess where you get your propaganda.

Fail.

[kanrok]

53. It's not propaganda

But if it makes it easier for you to ignore the science to assuage your conscience, then have at it.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Lecture me about the "science".

Please, enlighten us with your razor sharp intellect.

[Maru Kitteh]

58. Oooh yes. I want to hear about this science thingy too. Mind if I pull up a chair?

[beam me up scottie]

59. Sure, grab a beer from the cooler!

:popcorn:

[Maru Kitteh]

60. Cool.

[beam me up scottie]

65. Nice choice!

I can't get this here but I still dream about it:

[kanrok]

71. Feel free to wallow in your ignorance, Sparky

Read my sig line for some reassurance.

[uppityperson]

72. bwahahahahahahahaha. Wait, were you serious?

[beam me up scottie]

75. So you got nothing. How predictable.

And boring. :boring:

I cut my teeth on pro-death anti-abortion terrorists back in the day, I was hoping you were going to put up a little fight.

[TK421]

249. Hey...I can get as much of that as you want! right down the street

maybe I could ship some to you? :hi:

[beam me up scottie]

280. Why thank you!

I think I may have found a local distributor who can get it for me, yay! I'll have to take you up on your generous offer if it doesn't work out. Magic Hat usually had a beer tent at the outdoor music festivals I attended when I lived in Vermont. Geez, I miss the northeast.

[uppityperson]

66. Looking for "body parts" which can be "torn asunder" here. Hmmm.....

Nope


Hmmmm


Aha, here you go, almost. Too bad it was an ectopic pregnancy and the woman would have died if it wasn't removed.



And finally, a fun page with varied embryos. Which is the human one?
http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/embryo/embryoflash.html

[kanrok]

69. Hmmm..

Interesting that you stopped at 4 weeks.

Most abortions occur later than that.

tell us, what does a 10 week old fetus look like?

[beam me up scottie]

76. Why don't you tell us, Mr. Science?

I'm sure you could school a dumb old nurse like uppity, right?

[uppityperson]

102. Did a quick search and post. If you want to post something else, feel free

jeepers, must EVERYTHING be a conspiracy?

[niyad]

140. would this be the same "science" that shows a six-week fetus as fully developed and functioning,

as the "picture" one of the local woman-hating, pro-forced birthers carries around in front of PP shows?

do you believe the earth is flat? or 6,000 years old?

[niyad]

138. sweetie, we have been dealing with your type of "argument" for decades-- none of the basic bs

has changed in all those decades, you are not even remotely original. that goes for all you supposedly do to help women and children--nice fantasy, but none of us on this thread are that gullible.

[niyad]

35. and do YOU have a point, or are YOU just here to argue a subject that will never

actually physically affect you?

[uppityperson]

67. But, it will! think of how many of this man's sperm may have been torn asunder from his body!

[Maru Kitteh]

127. Better check his sock drawer and his shower drain. He may be a mass-sperm murderer.

[niyad]

32. they have rights when they draw their first independent breath--until then, biologically, they are

technically parasites.

by the way, how many of the children that you insist need to be born into families too poor to care for them, into situations of hell, are YOU PERSONALLY willing to support until graduation from college.

one of the many things that pisses me off about the woman-hating, pro-forced birthers is the fact that THEY don't pay for the situations they force on others. if I had my way, each and every time one of those zealots scares a woman out of having an abortion, that person immediately needs to sign a statement of financial responsibility for the woman's prenatal care, and then for her and the child until that child has graduated college.
let's see them put their money where their sol-called morality is.

[Scout]

46. fetuses get rights after they are born n/t

[uppityperson]

63. Legally, third trimester, though they have more about 20-24 weeks.

When do you think they should?

[tekisui]

133. Fetuses have no rights, nor should they.

[Arkana]

246. A fetus gains rights--and a consciousness--at birth.

That's when it becomes an independent life-form.

Until then, it's part of the mother's body.

[kanrok]

267. Yes! Of Course!

A fetus is nothing but a parasite!

And you wonder why people hold pro-death proponents in contempt.

[beam me up scottie]

287. YOU are the only "pro-death proponent" here.

And the majority of DUers hold you and your kind in contempt.

[Arkana]

301. "Pro-death"?

Where I come from, it's called "pro-reproductive rights".

And scientifically speaking, a fetus IS a parasite. It survives attached to a host body and draws nutrients from it--and if the host dies, the fetus dies.

[Scout]

45. "ends the discussion with me"

good, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

[kanrok]

50. Nah.

I'll think I'll stick around.

Thanks anyway.

[Maru Kitteh]

57. The only negative thing about abortion is that it sometimes

carries a few extremely minimal risks. Those very minimal risks don't even come close to the risk a normal pregnancy poses to a woman. Pregnancy is a risk that a woman should never be asked to take unwillingly. Obviously a prevention of pregnancy is preferable but yes, I am PROUD that we are able to offer women a simple and safe medical procedure when pregnancy is contraindicated or undesired.

[PeaceNikki]

185. Abortion is a moral and positive choice that liberates women,

saves lives, and protects families.

[kanrok]

202. And kills children.

You forgot that one.

Fly your flag over that for awhile.

[PeaceNikki]

205. No, it ends pregnancy. Pregnancy and childbirth kill women.

Back atcha, Judgy McJudgeface.

[kanrok]

210. Ends "pregnancy"

Interesting word choice.

If that's what you need to justify your support of abortion, then have at it.

What abortion really does is end life.

"life" begins at conception.

And not in a metaphysical way.

[PeaceNikki]

211. It's a legal medical procedure. No matter how you spin it.

[kanrok]

214. No question is is a legal medical procedure

But while we're talking about medicine, do you actually know what the
"procedure" is?

Do you have any idea what it is that you are advocating?

Or do you just avoid the issue altogether?

[PeaceNikki]

215. You = laughable.

In an unfunny kinda way.

[kanrok]

219. Okay

We'll chalk you up as someone who just ignores the issue.

That's about all I need to know about your position on abortion.

[PeaceNikki]

222. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6777721&mesg_id=6797919

Really - I'd like to know.

[kanrok]

244. The answer is "no."

n/t

[PeaceNikki]

248. I don't know how you can morally justify that opinion.

If I thought one was responsible for "baby-killin'", I would most certainly want them punished. How does that selective morality work?

[kanrok]

251. Ooohhh...you caught me!

I don't subscribe to one side or the other.

You can call it "selective morality" if you wish.

I tend to side with pragmatism.

But you should be aware that you are also being "selectively moral."

Except in your world, you only think of the woman, and totally disregard the other living entity.

[PeaceNikki]

What are your credentials, kanrok?

Are you a medical professional? Have you HAD or participated in a termination of a pregnancy? Did you go to medical school? Or are you basing your intimate knowledge on what the Catholic Church has taught you on the matter? Do you have a uterus?

Your single journal entry tell me all I need to know about your stance on the matter.

[kanrok]

264. Excellent.

Then I don't have to suffer through conversing with you anymore.

You are as tolerant as those ass wipes at Free Republic.

Congratulations on that.

[uppityperson]

243. What is the "procedure"? What is it? Can you answer or merely duck/insult?

[uppityperson]

221. What is your definition of "life", "Life" that you are using here? eom

[Odin2005]

233. Based on that reasoning sperm and eggs are "life", too.

They are the haploid, unicellular stage of the animal life cycle, each sperm and egg is a genetically unique individual. So I guess you are a mass murderer every time you jerk off. :eyes:

[kanrok]

250. Umm...nope

Let's stick with science, avoiding any religious or metaphysical dancing on the head of a pin.

Ask any developmental biologist when mammalian life begins.

He or she will tell you that mammalian life occurs when the sperm from the father unites with the egg of the mother.

Mammalian life is a continuous process of development. It starts with fertilization and ends at death.

[Odin2005]

255. Um, yep. Haploid gametes technically are individuals.

Your diploid-centrism shall not be tolerated! ;-)

Oh, and I am a biology major, so don't give me the "ask any biologist" shtick.

[kanrok]

256. I guess I'm a dilpoid centrist then.

Can't have life until the haploids fuse.

And what happens with the millions of poor little sperm who don't make the cut?

Oh the humanity.

[Odin2005]

259. I am just taking your thinking to it's logical conclusion.

Sperm and egg are "human life", they are haploid individuals of the species Homo sapiens. The notion of "human life" used by you anti-choicers is just a euphemism for "soul", nothing more. I'm an Atheist, I have no use for BS superstitious notions of "souls". What is important to me is sapience. a 15-week fetus is no more sapient than a lizard or a fish.

[kanrok]

261. Well

If that's what it takes to satisfy your conscience go for it.

You say your a biology major.

You should know the difference between haploid and diploid.

You should also know that mammalian "life" doesn't occur until the sperm and the egg fuse.

My opinion has nothing to do with souls.

It is solely scientifically based.

I'm sure "sapience" is important to you pro-deathers.

It makes you feel better about yourselves.

[Odin2005]

262. Your opinion has nothing to do with science.

I know facts, that's what I know. My emphasis is BIOTETCH, so I sure as hell know what haploid and diploid means.

"Solely scientifically based" my rear end". gametes are objectively just as much "human lives" as us multicellular diploids, they are just different "vehicles of the genes" for the different parts of the animal life cycle, the great difference in form between the two stages means nothing, objectively.

[kanrok]

263. Yes. Yes.

You can claim until your blue in the face that your interested in nothing but the "facts" but you bias is coming through loud and clear.

I was a biology major in college as well.

I'm not in college anymore.

I reside in the real world.

[Odin2005]

275. "Bias"? I think you are projecting.

[kanrok]

277. If you say so.

I mean, you are so adept at describing biology, you must also be a mind reader.

LOL.

[beam me up scottie]

281. What kind of "bias" would a young atheist majoring in biology have?

Odin sincerely cares about women and women's issues. Your posts prove you could care less about us as long as the fetuses are protected at any cost.

[Odin2005]

296. +1

The fetus-worshiping behavior is strong with this one! :hi:

[uppityperson]

288. No, that is called psychology.

[Scout]

302. "I reside in the real world."

yes, in the real world where YOU WILL NEVER BE PREGNANT.

i can't believe you are still allowed to post here ... calling people pro-death, and making accusations about covens (as if that's an insult to be called a witch!!) ... you do not reply with any substance to the questions posed to you, and come back with bluster, bullshit and pompous crap.

you don't care about the pregnant WOMAN, just as long as she squeezes out that crotch dropping you'll be happy.

you are disgusting.

[uppityperson]

242. "ends life"="kills child"? Define "life". But no, you never answer, just duck, insult.

[uppityperson]

254. Are you a vegan?

[PeaceNikki]

208. Do you think that people who have abortions should be punished?

I mean, since it's "killing babies" and all.

And I imagine you would like to see the book thrown at healthcare professionals who are "mass murderers"? And what about the men that impregnated them, drive them to the doctor, held their hands through the procedure and cared for them afterwards? Accessories to murder?

Do you think your god will condemn all of these baby killers to an eternity in hell for their murderous ways?

[uppityperson]

241. No. Abortion does not kill children. Unless done improperly on a child, which is possible, esp with

parental notification laws and having to either wait and get a later abortion or do-it-yourself one. In which case the pregnant child has died.

Glad to know you understand that

[csziggy]

42. Part of the story at the link in the OP is that making abortion illegal does not reduce abortions

It just makes it more lethal. Educating women about their reproductive choices and providing access to reliable contraceptives seems to be the only way to reduce abortions.

Reagan and both Bushes instigated the "Mexico City Policy" which cut funds from any international organization that provided even a mention of abortion as part of their family planning and health care counseling. This reduced the access of the most marginalized women in the world - refugees and those in the poorest countries in the world - not only to abortions but to contraceptives and to health care. Clinton recinded the policy but GWB re-instituted it. Obama again recinded it but the restoration of finds to aid organizations takes time.

Some fundies want to restrict access not only to abortion, but to education about family planning information and to contraceptives, which can only INCREASE the number of abortions.

No, abortions are not the best choice for women, but without access or information about other choices they may a woman's choice of last resort.

I won't even get into the situations of women who are not permitted to make choices as to when and who they have sex with - which may or may not involved legalize rape under the auspices of forced marriage. Refugee women suffer a very high incidence of rape - and an unwanted pregnancy can threaten their lives in more ways than lack of health care.

So what is your point?

[Odin2005]

235. Proof that it's all about punishing women, not about the fetus.

[kanrok]

268. Very illogical

But you probably know that.

[beam me up scottie]

284. Why, yes, your religious beliefs about women and pregnancy are extremely illogical.

Even Mr.Spock would stroke out if he read your posts.

[Odin2005]

230. If us guys could get prgnant abortion would be a sacrement.

anti-choice is misogyny, pure and simple.

[PeaceNikki]

232. And there would be abortion clinics on every corner.

Free of charge, guilt and jackasses harassing the patients.

[beam me up scottie]

4. Yes, they ARE just fetuses, what else would they be?

Snowflakes?

:crazy:

[LeftyMom]

5. Do go on.

:popcorn:

[niyad]

9. and 1600+ women A DAY die from complications from pregnancy and childbirth--but hey, they're just

women, right?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. Just To Clarify: Almost All Of Them Are In Africa.

Doesn't make a difference to your overall point, but your statistic can be misleading if one is viewing it as an overall number for developed countries; as opposed to Africa in which the reason for the 1600 deaths per day is solely due to inadequate medical facilities and care.

[niyad]

36. you might want to take a look at maternal death rates in this country, which, by the way

also has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the industrialized world.

[uppityperson]

68. Graph/country link.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_mat_mor-health-maternal-mortality

[kanrok]

73. Well...there goes that meme

Next?

[uppityperson]

74. True, there is also the illegality of abortion issue in most of those places, as well as poor health

care. Glad you are getting it.

[beam me up scottie]

78. Be careful, sister, he's a clever one.

He hasn't done anything to back up the bullshit yet, but that may just be an act...


:spray:

I kill me.

:rofl:

[kanrok]

79. I hoped that when Obama was elected

We could actually do something about reducing abortion.

Policies matter, as we saw when Clinton was President.

Abortions were down then. (Perhaps it was just a function of the economy)

BTW, I'm not arguing that abortions should be illegal.

I don't think that it's workable.

For reasons similar to those you suggest.

I also am not against birth control.

The sex drive is strong, and cannot be stopped by arguing abstinence.

It didn't work for me.

But there has to me a multi-modal approach to this issue.

Judging by the posts here, that is not going to happen anytime soon.

It is extremely interesting to see the reaction my posts have garnered.

I presume all of you claim to be liberal in the good sense, i.e, open minded.

Man, was I wrong.

Talk about jumping to conclusions.

What bothers me about this issue is that neither dems nor repubs (as a political parties) care to do much about reducing abortions.

Both sides treat this issue like a pinata.

I'll be honest, some of the posts in this thread are just as close minded and ignorant as those I've seen at free republic.

Unless and until there is common ground on this issue, we'll all go on seeing 40 million abortions per year forever.

IMHO that is very sad.

[uppityperson]

83. Pres Obama is funding contraception availability to other countries again

mrbush put a hold on all of that because groups like Planned Parenthood, which advocate Planning Parenthood first with contraception also do abortions where they are legal. mrbush put a hold on them doing any contraceptive advocating in other countries where they are needed. Not just not doing abortions, but not being able to educate women and men about contraception or have any available for them.

So you can thank President Obama for working towards having more contraception available worldwide in developing/poor countries.

I do agree with you that some of the posts in this thread are just as close minded and ignorant as those I've seen at free republic.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello_Kitty]

122. 'Common ground' would be sex ed, contraception, and safe legal abortions.

A concerted effort on those three things, in that order, would produce the reduction in abortions (not to mention STDs and maternal deaths) that you seek.

However, authoritarian misogynist forced birther godbags do everything in their power to steer the debate, and policies, to their crackpot death cult ideas. They've convinced a lot of people that their abstinence and anti-contraception nutbaggery deserves a place on the table. They've had a lot of influence on programs for family planning in some of the poorest countries on earth where women have the least access to health care and economic opportunities. The result of their meddling has been more death and misery than the most prolific abortionist of their fevered imaginations could ever accomplish.


They do a good bit of damage here in the good old USA too. The states who take the most funding for "abstinence only" sex ed have the highest incidence of STDs and unplanned pregnancies among teenage girls. Go figure. Maybe you ought to realize that you can't acheive "common ground" with authoritarian forced birther godbags. They aren't interested in it. They are all about the power.

[Odin2005]

236. Anyone that calls themself :pro-life is a misogynistic bigot, period.

[kanrok]

265. Very tolerant of you

Did you attend many "Tea-Bag" get togethers?

Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[beam me up scottie]

282. Actually yes, Odin is very tolerant and is a fine liberal young man.

You've done nothing but parrot right-wing conservative republicans and it's obvious to everyone here who sucks their tea bags.

Keep digging.

[uppityperson]

289. No, he is intolerant of bigots. That isn't a problem for most peoplt though.

[Scout]

303. being progressive does not mean you have to be tolerant

of ignorant assholes who want to trample on your rights, and who think you are no more than a vessel for their seed.

"every sperm is sacred" NOT

if you're going to worry about your sperm, be more careful where you leave it.

[Zoeisright]

11. And it's none of your fucking business.

But you wouldn't understand my point.

[Maru Kitteh]

16. +1 , , , , THAT was beautiful.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. What Is None Of Their Fucking Business?

[azmouse]

21. And I'm sure you care equally about all the adult lives being lost for lack of health care?

[kanrok]

25. I do.

Can you say the same about the 40 million fetuses that are aborted each year?

[azmouse]

30. No I can't.

I'm much more concerned with the people that are already here and suffering.

[Scout]

47. i could give a rats ass about the fetuses

i'm concerned about the real, actual people (you know, WOMEN)who want an abortion.

[beam me up scottie]

54. Do you care about the fetuses? How many kids have you adopted?

How much of your money and time do you spend helping high risk kids?

Do you buy groceries for the single mothers when their food stamps just won't stretch to the end of the month?

How many deadbeat dads have you brought to justice?

Do you financially support your local women's clinic so that they can provide birth control for all women?

[dugaresa]

23. i view it as 40 million less children abused, neglected or ignored

having a baby is wonderful when the baby is planned. i know i have had two planned pregnancies. loved being pregnant, loved my babies and watching them grow.

but as much as I loved being pregnant, I also had the home, the job, healthcare and the money to care for the children along with a supportive partner.

it does not surprise me at all that 40 million women world wide might have an abortion each year because they may not even have one of those things i listed above.

having a baby is one thing, caring for it is another.

this issue is as old as time, that is why there are abortion methods dating back to the time of the ancients.

i think of the children every day abused by parents who resent that very real little person's very existence. parents who starve their kids, neglect them, abuse them both here and abroad.
think of the the kids abandoned to die because they weren't born perfect or they are the wrong sex, those abandoned in orphanages world wide. I still shudder when I remember the anti-abortion policies of Romania and the orphanages filled with unwanted children.

to worry about a fetus not yet born? no I can't not when so many children already exist on this planet and are living in abject and horrendous circumstances.

if only the anti-choice money went into helping those already here, perhaps this would be a better world.

[kanrok]

29. Wouldn't we all be better off

If we found a way to decrease the incidence of abortion?

I agree that we should do more to help those already here.

No argument from me on that issue.

[dugaresa]

31. organizations like Planned Parenthood try to reduce that incidence

by promoting the use of birth control.

Education and birth control are the answer to reducing the number of abortions, however women who do not want to carry a pregnancy to term, should it happen, should be able to get a safe abortion.

To be honest I think that the "silver ring", and abstinence programs have done more to increase the number of abortions. Sticking one's head in the sand is never a good idea. Sex is a natural part of human behavior and the more honest and upfront we are about sexuality, birth control, etc the better off we will all be.

[armyowalgreens]

34. We should reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies...

If that in turn reduces the number of abortions, so be it. But the goal should not be to make it harder to get abortions nor try to convince others to keep the baby.

[niyad]

37. wow--then maybe you ought to talk to some of the people who not only oppose abortion, but also

contraceptives, sex education, etc., etc. the fact that they oppose the things that would help lower the abortion rate simply proves that they are hypocrites, whose sole reason (whatever their justification) is a hatred of women's reproductive autonomy.

as an example of how bizarre their thinking is, a number of years ago in SF, a woman had an art exhibit in which she displayed decorated condoms. the exhibit was picketed by people screaming "murderer" at her.

your concern is noted, the question is, what, exactly, are YOU doing to lower the number of needed abortions? do you use a condom? have you had a vasectomy? are you celibate?

[ljm2002]

40. Yes, we should try to find ways to decrease abortions...

...oh, and look at this, the FIRST line in the article cited:

"Increased contraceptive use has led to fewer abortions worldwide..."

Gosh! It looks like we may have found a way to decrease abortions! Imagine that! And yet your whole contribution to this thread has been to complain that abortions are allowed at all.

By the way: you do know that historically, restrictions on abortions do not reduce their incidence. All they do is make more women seek illegal, unsafe procedures. Ditto for restricting sex education and the availability of birth control. So what exactly has been your point here, to blame those who actually support EFFECTIVE means for reducing the number of abortions?

Geez.

[kanrok]

43. Wow!

It's like you read my mind!

Not.

My point is that it is abhorrent that there are 40 million abortions worldwide every year.

Yet that does not bother anyone here at all.

My other point is that people who use abortion as a contraceptive device turn my stomach.

Yet, you seem not to let it bother you at all.

It would seem to me that if pro-choice people were so damned interested in protecting lives they would see abortion for what it is, instead of pretending that those children who are aborted are just a conglomeration of cells.

You see, I talk to pro-life people all the time who are much, much more militant about this issue than I am.

They call pro-choice people "pro-abortion."

I have argued with them, telling them that they are wrong.

NOBODY, I say, is FOR abortions.

The pro-choicers are decent and honorable people.

Surely they find 40 million abortions per year abhorrent!

It's unfair to call them "pro-abortion!"

We have common ground here, I argue, let's work on this issue from there.

I guess I was wrong.

[Scout]

49. blah, blah, blah, yadda yadda

you're wrong about a lot of things apparently...

[beam me up scottie]

56. "people who use abortion as a contraceptive device turn my stomach."

And you've paid it forward, bravo! :applause:

[Hello_Kitty]

148. I can't stand disingenuous pricks who talk about finding 'common ground' with anti-choicers

Almost as much as I can't stand the anti-choicers themselves. The "common ground" Kanroc wants to see is better known as "slut shaming". He's magnanimously willing to allow abortions, but the dirty whores who have them need to be made to feel bad about it.

[kanrok]

151. Precisely my point!

Not.

Back to the drawing board there sister.

[Hello_Kitty]

155. Bullshit. That's exactly what you're up to.

Your posts reek of it.

[kanrok]

156. Bullshit right back to you

I could do this all day.

Now get back in the kitchen where you belong.

[beam me up scottie]

194. I pity the women in your life.

If there are any.

[kanrok]

200. Oh look! Another insult!

Always resorting to blind hatred because you can't articulate a point.

Nice way to live a life.

[Odin2005]

237. You are a misogynistic bigot that hates women. so STFU.

[Name removed]

266. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

291. How dare we be intolerant of bigots? Damn us all

[Odin2005]

297. Yep, no different than the Fundies that think criticizing their bigotry is somehow...

..."Oppression". It's crazy.

[PeaceNikki]

299. I like this image

[Odin2005]

300. I think I posted that on DU a couple years ago!

:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

192. Exactly, he could care less about babies.

None of them do.

[kanrok]

201. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Wake me when you have a point.

[GirlinContempt]

89. 40 million is at most 0.6% of the worlds population

engaging in abortion. To me, that is not very much. When you look at the number 40,000,000 by itself, it seems like an inconceivable number. But when you actually put it in to perspective, that's not very much. That's less than the percentage of condoms that break (2%). That's less than the failure rate of the pill (5%), it's around the same as the failure of the sterilization method (0.5 for women and 0.2 for men). Look at it another way: In 2007, 4,315,000 babies WERE born in the USA ALONE! THE USA ALONE!

With the number of people that exist in the world, and the fact that not all have access to or knowledge about birth control, that number is not as high as it could be, frankly. I find it to be lower than I would have thought.

I don't *want* women to have to go through abortion. I would rather women who did not want babies never got pregnant, but there is no fail-safe way to achieve that at this time, and as long as rape, violence, ignorance and poverty abound, this is what it is. I don't find it abhorrent that less than one percent of the worlds population has found themselves in a situation requiring an abortion. Shit happens. Condoms break, the pill fails, violence against women abounds, accidents will happen.

How many women do you know who use abortion as a method of birth control? Seriously, I want to know. I hear that shit all the time, I can not imagine the woman who runs around having unprotected sex thinking "I'll just have an abortion, whopeee!". It's far more invasive and costly than a box of condoms or a script for pills, and the whole concept is just ridiculous to me. Whatever, people say it, I disbelieve it. (Edited to add I read that story in the related post... that is an extreme case, the exception that proves the rule so to speak.)

What I find more abhorrent than the number of abortions is the number of people who live in situations that will never allow them the education, the freedom, the means or the safety to engage in their lives as they would like, to have or not have children, to be safe and healthy and free and happy. That is a far greater ill. And it goes hand in hand with the issue of abortion. Until people are educated, safe and cared for, abortion rates will never decline. And to act as though people here are in love with abortion and think it's great, that's disingenuous. People think it's great that women HAVE THE OPTION, that they CAN have an abortion, that they were not forced to go through with the pregnancy, or forced to use some scary back-ally coat hanger man. I rejoice in the number of abortions for that reason and that reason alone. And if it is documented, at least it has the probability of being safe, clean and one can hope with dignity. That doesn't mean I think women should run out and get knocked up so they can visit the abortion clinic. It means I am happy that they have that option, that it hasn't been taken from them. And hopefully, as we progress, it will become less necessary.

[uppityperson]

91. +++++++++++++!

[beam me up scottie]

99. Thank you, that was beautiful.

It's not about bouncy little babies, it's about punishing women who have sex for fun.

You've come a long way, baby. :puke:

[GirlinContempt]

100. I figured I'd do the math.

It's easier to see numbers for what the really are when you can put them in to some kind of perspective, I find.

[beam me up scottie]

104. I've saved your work.

If it's being "discussed" at fr this won't be the last time we see it here.

[GirlinContempt]

106. Why's that?

[beam me up scottie]

111. They usually catapult the propaganda.

And it inevitably winds up here camouflaged as "concern".

Not to mention there are at least two websites who exist only to monitor our forums and mock us. Some of their members post here as well and thrive on threads like this.

[GirlinContempt]

113. Ahh yes, I'm aware of some of those.

It's sad. I'm glad I could be of some help if even in a small way :)

[beam me up scottie]

116. Oh, your gallows humour down-thread is priceless.

If you listen closely, you can hear their pointy little heads exploding. :evilgrin:

[uppityperson]

117. speaking of

getting quoted elsewhere, and mocked. Too bad they don't understand my seriousness

[beam me up scottie]

121. Thinking is painful.

Too bad teh stupid doesn't hurt teh stupid ones.

[GirlinContempt]

118. I'm willing to bet

it gets taken seriously. Yeesh.

[beam me up scottie]

123. Or they'll freak because we can joke about such things.

Black humour is inherited-at least in my family. I always wonder how other people get through funerals.

[GirlinContempt]

124. To me

the idea that women are running around thinking "YAY lets have unprotected sex, abortions will be our birth control, yipeeee" is so laughable that it doesn't deserve to be treated with any seriousness of thought or debate.

[beam me up scottie]

126. That's what usually happens in these threads.

A few people will try rational conversation and will be soundly punished for their effort. Eventually we all get sick of having fingers wagged in our face and the smart assing begins. If we took the concern trolls seriously we'd all be banned.

[GirlinContempt]

101. Oh, I was looking for some info for the whole worlds births

not just in the US, and I found this:

As of 2007, the average birth rate for the whole world is 20.3 per year per 1000 total population, which for a world population of 6.6 billion comes to 134 million babies per year. (source Wiki)

[uppityperson]

103. Thank you for pulling out numbers.

[GirlinContempt]

105. I think it's important.

When you just hear 40 million, that's staggering. At least to me. Numbers need perspective to have any real meaning. I know for me, breaking things down in to percentages really helps me to understand the numbers in their proper context.

Maybe I'm alone in that. I never had much of a head for figures.

[uppityperson]

108. Rather like these posts about DUers making it "real" also.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6777263&mesg_id=6777263

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6788635&mesg_id=6788635

Making it real is a good thing as numbers can just be numbers.

[GirlinContempt]

112. Oh wow, what sad posts.

I think many people tend to treat numbers as if they themselves, alone of any other consideration, have meaning. That is not the case, imo. In this case, it's 40 million. Now, 40 million DOLLARS is a lot of MONEY, but does that mean that 40 million (anything) is a lot? 40 million grains of sand? 40 million blades of grass? 40 million pennies sure isn't the same as 40 million dollars. 10 deaths by flu are a lot for a neighbourhood, but for a country? A continent?

I know you get my point. I don't know why I keep making it. Sorry.

[LeftyMom]

95. So where do I get the thank you note sent?

I'm calling up Planned Parenthood Mar Monte (that's their Northern California division, their largest) and making a donation in your name tomorrow. I'm sure there will be a lovely card thanking you for your support. Let me know where you need it sent, would you?

[tekisui]

134. Wait a second. I just looked at your profile...You are male?

Your opinion matters none in this argument.

[niyad]

139. didn't even have to check the profile to know it was male, but merely confirmed.

[Amaya]

177. I find it abhorrent that 70,000 women die annually

from unsafe abortions!

[kanrok]

182. Good for you.

We all need to feel abhorrent from time to time.

BTW, you might want to go lodge a complaint with the health systems in third world countries.

That's where the majority of your 70k are located.

Why aren't we hearing from statistic lady on this discrepancy, I wonder?

40 Million abortions

only 70k deaths.

Pretty good average, according to the "logic" being touted by your buddies on this thread.

[GirlinContempt]

189. I agree.

Anywhere unsafe conditions and practices are found, they should be eradicated. Fortunately, the percentages of complications from safe, properly done abortions are small. It`s scary to think of having something like that done in unclean or unsafe conditions :(

[Scout]

48. why? how is depriving a woman of a legal medical procedure

going to make "we all" better off?

it's not going to make HER better off....

[beam me up scottie]

77. Do you care about the fetuses? How many kids have you adopted?

How much of your money and time do you spend mentoring high risk kids?

Do you buy groceries for single mothers when their food stamps just won't stretch to the end of the month?

How many deadbeat dads have you brought to justice?

Do you financially support your local women's clinic so that they can provide birth control for all women?

You got something to back up that wagging little finger, mister?

[kanrok]

80. I'm willing to bet I do more than you

I'm not interested in posting it publicly, but feel free to PM me and I'll give you the run down.

[beam me up scottie]

81. Sure I will, right after you blind us with your science up-thread.

Your type gets off on lecturing women instead of helping them.

[kanrok]

82. LOL

My "type?"

Wow.

You're no better at arguing than those idiots at Free Republic.

[uppityperson]

85. That's twice so far you have used "no better than freeper" insult. Odd

some of the posts in this thread are just as close minded and ignorant as those I've seen at free republic.

[beam me up scottie]

87. He's mentioned his peeps at fr several times. Hi guys!!!1!

Everybody wave to the nice audience! :hi:

[kanrok]

88. Then you haven't read them all

n/t

[beam me up scottie]

93. Fascinating. Tell us more about the people you "argue" with at freepland.

Do go on.

[uppityperson]

84. Hey, did you know that not only am I a nurse but an astronaut also? I'll PM you and

give you the run down if you'd like. Also, I'm EXTREMEMLY rich and gorgeous!!!11111

[kanrok]

90. I'm happy for you.

n/t

[uppityperson]

92. My girlfriends had an abortion party last week, I didn't get the door prize because, sniff

I'm too old to get pregnant. I mean, I COULD, if I could find donor egg, have lots of steroid shots, maybe have my uterus reinserted, but really, it would be too much and besides, I can always buy myself a door prize and the party was soooooooo much fun anyways.

[beam me up scottie]

97. There was a bonus prize for having the niftiest prolapsed uterus.

Some woman named Duggar got it.

[uppityperson]

98. You betcha! wink

[GirlinContempt]

107. You can borrow mine (uterus) if you like.

I've got an opening in January 2010.

[uppityperson]

109. Golly, THANK YOU. Sounds like

congratulations are in order?

[GirlinContempt]

110. Not yet.

I've got a rash of unprotected sex lined up for November, and an appointment for my birthcontrol abortion pre-booked (the Tropical Suite!!!) for mid to late December (just in time for the holidays).












Please tell me there is no 'smiley' needed here. Please.

[uppityperson]

114. Well, when you're ready for a break, I'll borrow it!

Thanks!




no more need of a smiley than my party post.

[GirlinContempt]

120. Sure, no problem.

Like I said, I have an opening in January. February is prepping for the usual March Madness unprotected sex-a-thon. With that many partners, you need at least 2 or 3 weeks to prepare. Sometimes, I even manage to get two off in the one month! You get a double discount if you do!

[beam me up scottie]

115. Is that the Party Plan?

I was considering upgrading but I'm not sure it's worth the extra money. I live in the south and have to pay a driver to take me to another state for my abortions. My friends and I usually chip in and rent a minivan each month.

We call them 'Joy Wagons'.

[GirlinContempt]

119. I'm on a frequent-buyer program.

Free upgraded themed suites, and points every time I visit!
I can trade in my points for free toasters and Starbucks gift cards! Also, you get a free 1,000 "rides"/25th procedure gift certificate to the Olive Garden, whichever comes first!

[beam me up scottie]

125. ROFL! The sarcasm is strong in this one!

Every time I laugh I wake up my boyfriend, poor guy hasn't slept well all week.

This has been one of the best weeks in gd EVAH!

[GirlinContempt]

128. Well, tell him I'm sorry to disturb his sleep

and also, want to have unprotected sexual intercourse? Don't worry, I have my abortion birth control all paid-up! :P

[beam me up scottie]

129. He has the night off so I'll have to go the nearest truck stop.

I don't even charge them, hahahahaha!

[Name removed]

147. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kanrok]

131. Based upon most of the posts in this thread

I am not surprised.

[GirlinContempt]

136. DENSE.

[uppityperson]

154. I'm good, I called it. I wonder if this is being discussed

elsewhere, but don't really care since it probably is. Hi guys! Tell Frank I miss him in the hard of hearing forum.

[GirlinContempt]

159. Look downthread

I can`t roll my eyes hard enough.

[beam me up scottie]

193. We're all going to get knocked up - just for you!

Then we'll all have abortions in your honour.

[kanrok]

203. Hmmmm...

11 pm on a Friday, and your inside posting on a computer.

I doubt your getting knocked up anytime soon.

[beam me up scottie]

207. LOL! I was posting from my laptop while in bed with my boyfriend, Cartman.

He's one of those real men who doesn't want to control women's reproductive organs.

We have a great sex life because he doesn't hate women.

Like I said, I pity the women in your life.

[kanrok]

209. Yeah

I believe you.

[beam me up scottie]

285. Mr. Bmus said to tell you that I'm hot, too.

I'm just the kind of Jezebel your type loves to hate.

[uppityperson]

223. Guess you don't know about time zones or shift work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6777721&mesg_id=6797341

[GirlinContempt]

225. HAHAHA ZING!

[beam me up scottie]

283. He also doesn't know anything about grown up relationships.

His belief that one needs to go out to get knocked up speaks volumes about his private life.

[gratuitous]

141. Citation?

And does that include only clinical abortions, or does it include "spontaneous" abortions where the woman's body, for whatever reason, doesn't take the pregnancy to term? Considering the effect of population surplus and the poor job we humans do of resource management and sharing, is ensuring that every fertilized egg becomes an independent, consuming human being a good idea? If you think it is a good idea, what other actions are you taking to make sure that every human being gets its share of the world's resources, grows up in a safe, secure environment, has access to adequate health care, education, work, and housing?

[GirlinContempt]

142. He`s citing the article in the OP

But, here`s that number in perspective:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6777721&mesg_id=6788825

[kanrok]

143. Reductio ad absurdum

look it up.

[gratuitous]

144. I missed something

You seem awfully long on excoriation, but awfully short on addressing the points. Yes, 40 million is a big number - that doesn't seem to be in dispute. But as a species we are going a pretty poor job of taking care of the 7 billion of us that are already here. What plans do you have in the works to accommodate not only the increased numbers of human beings on the planet occurring even in the face of 40 million abortions, but what are your plans should we add even 40 million more annually?

Please feel free to address increased demand for fresh water, food, land, education, health care, and jobs to begin with. I'm sure other topics will suggest themselves.

Or is this just a NINA post - no information need apply?

[GirlinContempt]

145. In what way is it absurd

to compare the number of WORLDWIDE abortions to the WORLDWIDE population, and the WORLDWIDE birth rate? Please, explain that to me. Then again, I'm just ignoring the TRUE meaning of what you said, which would be you claiming that somehow what I said is self-contradictory. As I cannot believe you could back that up with ANYTHING even remotely plausible, I'm assuming you're falsely using the phrase when really you mean reductio ad incommodum, or just directly translating because you think for whatever reason it is 'absurd', not truly self-contradictory.

I gave my reply to you some thought, some consideration, and some time. If you are serious at all about conversing on this or any issue, the least you can do is apply yourself in explaining your points and providing your reasoning.

[kanrok]

146. Hey!

Only 6 million jews were killed in concentration camps in WWII!

Maybe you can break down the percentage of the population they represented.

The absurdity is that you find this argument acceptable.

[GirlinContempt]

149. It isn't an 'argument'

It's a fact. That is the percentage of people in the world who are engaging in abortion yearly. To me, this puts the number in to perspective. Shit. Happens. It's going to happen. And all the bellyaching in the world about the number of abortions taking place wont stop them from happening. 500,000 women die in childbirth every year, and that number only includes DEVELOPED COUNTRIES. Who knows how many lives were saved by abortion, in the cases of women who's own lives are threatened by pregnancy.

Until people have the education, the means, the resources, the freedom in general and freedom from violence to help them avoid such situations, this will happen. Frankly, that number doesn't seem very high to me. I would have expected it to be higher. I don't *want* it to be. But to treat it like it's some out of control epidemic is bizarre. The more you say about this topic, the more you are sounding like someone who is just flat-out anti-abortion. You claim you don't want to make abortion illegal, just to reduce it's numbers. Well, it's numbers ARE being reduced, and I'm talking about ways *I* think it can be reduced, but you are just totally focused on this 40,000,000 number, not even allowing it to be put in to any kind of perspective. As long as we have a population of nearly 7 BILLION, with most living in poverty, neglect and ignorance, the abortions are going to be in the millions. And the numbers could be way way higher, hell they WERE higher. So, what is your problem in all of this? That the fact of that many women being unable to care for babies, or unable to carry them to term for whatever their reasons doesn't make me horrified with them? I'm not. I won't be horrified with anyone for making choices about their own lives the best way they know how. Until EVERYONE has the freedom and access to education they DESERVE as human beings, who the fuck are you to judge? Because that is exactly what you are doing. Judging people for being in circumstances lesser than your own.

How about we look at some other numbers, eh? Do these numbers tear at your heart the same way? 820,000 children die from malaria and 208,000 die from HIV/AIDS worldwide. In 1955, 210 in every 1,000 children born worldwide died before age five, compared to 79 per 1,000 today. Preventable diseases kill 29,000 children under the age of five every day around the world. Child mortality rates have actually increased in 14 countries, including nine in sub-Saharan Africa, mostly because of HIV/AIDS.
Globally, 10.6 million children are still dying from preventable causes every year.

* Pneumonia and other acute respiratory infections kill approximately two million children every year, making it the leading cause of death of children under five years of age.
* Diarrhoeal disease kills 1.6 million children every year, primarily by causing severe dehydration that can quickly result in organ failure in young children.
* Malaria kills 3,000 African children every day, making it the largest cause of death for children under five on the continent. Persistent anemia, lifelong brain damage or paralysis can result in survivors.
* Measles kills more than half a million children every year.
* HIV infects 1,800 under the age of 15 every day. Most cases are transmitted from mother to baby during pregnancy, childbirth or breastfeeding.

Every year 15 million children die of hunger. FIFTEEN MILLION. One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of 5. 1.3 billion people live on less than $1 per day, while the world's 358 billionaires have assets exceeding the combined annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people. 3 billion people in the world today struggle to survive on US$2/day. The assets of the world's three richest men are more than the combined GNP of all the least developed countries on the planet.
Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger.
It is estimated that some 800 million people in the world suffer from hunger and malnutrition, about 100 times as many as those who actually die from it each year.


Which is the bigger problem? 4 million abortions, or ten million already live children dying of preventable disease every year? 15 million dying of hunger? You wont forgive me, but I'm sure others will if I just can't view abortion with the same abhorrence and disgust you do. I view the rich, powerful and educated who allow these situations to continue in our world disgusting, abhorrent and deserving of all the shame that can be heaped upon them.


Comparing abortion to the holocaust is insane, and deserves no further discussion.

[kanrok]

150. Again, your argument misses the mark

It's actually beside the point.

You've identified problems that ALSO need our attention.

However, we can chew gum and walk at the same time.

I can't help it that 40 million abortions per year is an uncomfortable and inconvenient fact for you.

I can, however, point out the fallacy of your arguments.

Hyperbole is perfectly acceptable, especially when someone, like yourself, reduces and argument to absurd levels.

And you can be upset until your head explodes, but to shunt aside the fact that there are 40 million abortions per year by comparing that number to the world population is ridiculous.

Some would even say insane.

Me included.

[GirlinContempt]

152. It isn't inconvenient to me.

It is what it is. And comparing it to the world population makes a huge difference. I would be shocked if, say, 40 million abortions were happening in the USA per year. That would be an absurd number, I would wonder what the hell is going on that so many abortions are happening. Numbers depend on other things to give them relevance. It isn't shunting anything aside, it's pointing out that with that many people in the world, that many abortions is not some huge out of control number. Especially when we consider the state of most of the worlds population.

My points aren't beside the point. Everything I've said to you has a great deal to do with abortion. Poverty, hunger, disease, lack of education, etc etc etc all contribute to the number of abortions. You don't think that a woman who lives on $2/day is more likely, if she can, to have an abortion? You don't think that hunger and poverty contribute? You don't think that a woman with AIDS might be more likely? You don't think that making the world a safe healthy place would reduce the number of abortions?

I can't help that the number 40,000,000 gives you something to crow about, as if it is independent of anything else, as if the number itself is somehow meaningful without looking at other things around it. I really can't. And I can't help that you think it is 'insane' to compare statistics. What would be a reasonable number of abortions, in your mind? What number would be acceptable to you, even ignoring any other relevant information.

I don't know if you do much reading, I doubt it, but percentages are used CONSTANTLY when providing information to people, in studies a number may seem high, but when COMPARED TO OTHER NUMBERS, that number becomes statistically insignificant because it is such a small group of the whole. I don't call this number THAT, but it is common practice to compare the subset to the whole.

[kanrok]

157. Yeah, it is an inconvenient fact for you

Otherwise you wouldn't be spending so much time thinking up ways to attempt to address it.

Sorry, but comparing abortions to the world population only makes a huge difference to those who need to rationalize their pro-choice positions.

And that's all your little exercise is...rationalization.

[GirlinContempt]

158. You're very wrong.

And very stupid. I can`t keep bothering to put effort in to replying to you when you just keep repeating yourself, wrongly.

You don`t even know what the phrases you use MEAN. You ignore the vast majority of peoples posts to you and zero in on something you can parrot back about.

You think I need to rationalize it? Good for you. I think you need to learn how to deal with reality, numbers, statistics and facts. It`s not called rationalization, it`s called a percentage. It`s called another way of looking at numbers. It`s called knowing how to use numbers. It`s called perspective. I think it`s also sometimes called `You are really seriously anti-abortion and just don`t want to admit it, and are sitting around judging women, claiming you want another solution but ignoring all conversation about that and parroting 40 million! 40 million! over and over in the hopes of getting some reaction and convincing someone else that that number somehow MEANS abortion is birth control`. Whew.

[kanrok]

164. Okay!

Let's look at numbers!

47 people die per day due to illicit drug use.

Want to compare that to the US population?

Drunk drivers kill 50 people per day.

Want to compare those statistics to the US population?

85 people die per day of gun violence?

Want to compare that to the US population?

137 people die per day of colorectal cancer.

Want to compare that to the US population?

274 women die each day because of breast cancer.

Want to compare that to the US population?

Each of those "statistics" represent a major public health problem.

Now let's compare that to daily abortions:

Here in the US it's approximately 3700.

Worldwide it's110,000 (THAT'S ONE HUNDRED AND TEN THOUSAND) abortions are performed.

Yes.

I'm wrong.

And stupid.

Or maybe just "looking at the numbers in another way."

Keep up the good work.

LOL.

[GirlinContempt]

166. Bravo for intentional stupidity!

:party:

[kanrok]

170. Oh, I get it now!

It's brilliant when you use statistics to make a point.

But intentional stupidity when those statistics are thrown in your face.

Got it.

LOL.

[GirlinContempt]

172. No, you don`t get it. Clearly.

You compared abortion to cancer, the holocaust, and drug abuse.


Best of luck in life, man.

[kanrok]

173. Thanks.

You too.

Hope you can find even more ridiculous statistics so you can assuage your conscience.

Good luck with that.

[GirlinContempt]

174. You. Are. Nuts.

this. is. over.

go. get. help.

[kanrok]

179. You. first.

n.t.

[Scout]

167. so what if there are abortions?

all your other "statistics" are talking about people who are already here, who are really people. they aren't just hanging around in someone's uterus "waiting" to be pushed out.

get it through your thick skull ...

real people /= fetus
fetus /= real person

[kanrok]

171. Yeah, who really cares about human life?

I mean, those darned pesky fetuses!

They're really annoying.

Just so we're clear, you're all right with dismembering a "fetus" seconds before it is "pushed out?"

A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Scout]

175. yes. because i know that women don't do that. you're the one with the fantasy about that.

i care about the human life of real people ... you know, WOMEN.

it's up to the pregnant woman to care about her fetus ... not me. what goes on in someone else's uterus is not my business, nor is it yours.

you apparently don't give a flying fiddler's fuck about the real people in the world, just those precious preborn poppets!

Mind your own uterus asshole.

[kanrok]

178. Now you did it.

You went and hurt my feelings.

Whatever will I do?

Sniff.

[uppityperson]

195. Why do I get the feeling you are talking late term abortions with "dismemberment" stuff

Why do women get late abortions? What restrictions are there on them? Should there be?

Bonus question, if you can actually answer any questions put to you:
What are you doing specifically to try to not have so many abortions happen?

[GirlinContempt]

196. I`m still curious

as to what an appropriate number of abortions would be.

[beam me up scottie]

197. What is he doing to prevent abortions?

At the very least I hope he got sterilized at a young age.

[kanrok]

204. You are incorrect.

Just out of curiosity, do you know how abortions are performed?

Have you ever seen one?

Have you at least read about the procedure?

Do you know what a 10 week old fetus looks like in the womb?

It would seem to me that if you are for something, you might want to define what it is you are advocating.

And you question about what I'm doing about this issue is a fair one.

As I stated before, feel free to PM me and I'll explain further.

[uppityperson]

216. Please tell me here. Explain further. I would like to hear.

Or rather than asking ME to pm YOU, if you want to PM me, just do it. You don't need my permission to send me a pm.

[uppityperson]

218. Let me ask you the same questions, see if you can answer me...

Why do women get late abortions? What restrictions are there on them? Should there be?

Bonus question, if you can actually answer any questions put to you:
What are you doing specifically to try to not have so many abortions happen?

[uppityperson]

258. BTW, I do know how and why and to whom. Yes, I have seen them.

probably a couple hundred of them.

You wrote me "I can also describe what the abortion procedure does to a fetus, but again, it is rather graphic." Since you won't pm me back even though I told you it was ok I'll fill you in on a not well kept secret. I have assisted at probably a couple hundred first trimester abortions. I have done pre- and post-abortion counseling and education, including about contraceptions, for several hundred more. There are many many many reasons for having an abortion, and I have save the lives of many women. If you have a problem with that, you have a real problem.

These are women:





These are fetus:





Since you seem to be confused THESE are babies:

[beam me up scottie]

286. Your post deserves a standing ovation. Thank you.

I mean it, thank you for everything you have done to help women.

[Scout]

304. +10000

ohmigod, is he sending you PMs?? did i misunderstand your post? if he is, ick.

[uppityperson]

308. I asked him to, but he hasn't sent me much of anything yet.

I told him he should send me the "omg too graphic" so I could see what he was talking about, but no, he won't.

Too graphic for me? hahahahahahhaa.

[GirlinContempt]

181. A fetus MUST be more important, even than a real live CHILD!!

because 10.6 million CHILDREN die every year of treatable, preventable disease, and 14 million more die of HUNGER. Yet, where are all the threads about this? Where are all the pro-lifers protesting and donating money and screaming about it from the pulpits? Where is the massive outcry? They *SAY* òh sure, that`s a problem too`, but has it EVER been given their attention? Have you EVER seen a pro-life food rally? a pro-life fundraiser for vaccines and doctors? No. 24.6 MILLION live children dying needlessly each year is less important than 4 million aborted fetuses.

BULL. SHIT.

[kanrok]

184. Bull. Shit. Indeed.

Go start a thread about those issues elsewhere.

Last I checked we were discussing the appalling statistic that there are 40 million abortions worldwide every year.

Remember: 40 MILLION

[GirlinContempt]

187. Go away.

Not ONE woman should care about what you think is appalling, or let anything you think or say shame them EVER.

I wasn`t talking to YOU, or addressing anything about what you happen to think is appalling. Get. Lost.

[kanrok]

199. Nope.

I. Don't. Take. Direction. From. You.

Get. Used. To. It.

[GirlinContempt]

226. I find this to be ironic

Since you seem to believe that women should take direction from you regarding something far more important, their reproductive rights and health.

I repeat: Not ONE woman should care about what you think is appalling, or let anything you think or say shame them EVER.

[PeaceNikki]

206. No, this thread was started discussing the death of women.

You personally turned it into your crusade.

Well, fuck it. Better here than bullying women and doctors in real life, jackass.

[kanrok]

212. Very articulate response.

It certainly shows a certain thoughtfulness and regard for the truth.

Not.

I can't help it that your offended by inconvenient facts.

That is your problem.

Not mine.

Peace?

Not from you.

[PeaceNikki]

213. SNAP!! You made fun of my username!! How original AND on-point!

BUUUUUUUUURN!!

[kanrok]

217. Sorry about the attack

I don't generally suffer fools gladly.

[PeaceNikki]

220. You apologize and then go onto call me a fool?

WWJD?

[kanrok]

252. Do you feel like a fool?

The term "I don't suffer fools gladly" is an aphorism, or an adgage if you will.

Not directed towards you personally, but towards the general tenor of the posts by most of those here.

I've been called "stupid" "mysoginistic", and been told to "fuck myself", all because I find 40 million abortions per year appalling (and those were the nice insults).

When people are douchenozzles to me, my inner douchebag awakes.

It's a weakness of mine.

[uppityperson]

253. 6 yrs. 4000 posts. Why so many on this topic?

[kanrok]

257. Good question.

I'm a glutton for punishment.

I am considered far right here (at least on this issue), and far left at another forum (no, not FR).

Go figure.

[GirlinContempt]

227. Then how do you live with yourself?

Through this whole thread, you`ve said next to nothing that is articulate, thought out, factual or useful. You attack other people, you make fun of other people. In what way is that articulate and well thought out?


Wait a second, why am I bothering? It`s already been made very very clear there is no point.

[PeaceNikki]

228. The "point" is to judge. To relieve their general "Catholic guilt" by looking down their nose at

others. To shame others. It's a very big part of Catholicism.

[GirlinContempt]

238. Oh, I meant no point

in saying anything to that guy. He's useless. :)

And I agree with you, at least about trying to guilt and shame and judge others.

[PeaceNikki]

239. Genesis 3:16 says:

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain will you give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

You see how when one considers shit like this "Truth" how their misogyny can run so deep.

[kanrok]

273. Contempt is a great description of you.

If you feel put upon, it's probably because sub-conscioulsy you feel guilt.

[GirlinContempt]

293. Wah wah you're like a giant baby

Bugger off.

[kanrok]

269. Only if you feel judged.

Sounds like you have some deep-seated guilt there Peace.

[PeaceNikki]

298. Nope. Not even a little "guilt". I'm not and never was Catholic.

But, nice try. You keep on keeping on with your "baby-killin'" meme. BTW, that 95-10 initiative is a sack of shit. It's Republicans in sheep's clothing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6127604">Democratic congressman kicked out of Democrats for Life for supporting birth control.

In addition, it's misogynistic in every sense of the word. It's entire premise is that 95% of abortions are because women are "uneducated".

[GirlinContempt]

306. Oh my GOD

How can you claim to be 'For Life', as the title of their group claims, and yet have the AUDACITY to refuse to vote for HEALTH CARE REFORMS that may help save MANY LIVES because you don't like abortion?! How is that protecting 'life'? Jesus. Christ.

What do you mean by "It's entire premise is that 95% of abortions are because women are "uneducated"."? I think many abortions (I'm talking on a global scale) happen because women don't have the necessary information to protect themselves against pregnancy, as well as not having the means to get the necessary birth control or the education to use it properly or even trust it.

[PeaceNikki]

307. More on DFLA

To me, the DFLA is the religious right's attempt to infiltrate the Democratic party. On the surface, it SEEMS like a righteous cause, but when one digs deeper, you see that it's no more than Republicans in Democratic clothing. A http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/9/26/3754/33226">Trojan Donkey. Something that even http://michellemalkin.com/2004/07/28/democrats-for-life/#comments">Michelle Malkin supports. An organization that http://thebagofhealthandpolitics.wordpress.com/2009/10/07/pro-life-democrats-take-anti-life-stand/">fights against a health care bill by using Republican smear tactics.

Our little "friend" in this thread supports this organization.

[varelse]

260. How do you manage to live with yourself?

:shrug:

[PeaceNikki]

186. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

:applause:

[GirlinContempt]

190. Thank you.

I don`t care if they try to say this is beside the point, it isn`t beside the point. You cant be `pro life` and ignore the millions of preventable deaths happening all the time. You just can`t. It isn`t about pro-life, it`s anti-abortion.

[Scout]

168. how many sperm died the last time you jacked off? don't they count? n/t

[kanrok]

169. Being rude and stupid

Is no way to go through life.

Now go bake me a cake.

[Scout]

176. being a self-important asshole is no way to go through life either.

Now go fuck yourself.

[kanrok]

180. It's physically impossible.

I figured someone as "smart" as you could understand that.

Alas, I was wrong.

Oh well.

[Scout]

191. at least you can admit you're wrong about things that don't matter.

now on to the things that do....

live real, living WOMEN.

[Scout]

162. you don't even HAVE an argument other than "i think abortion is icky"

:rofl:

[GirlinContempt]

165. Clearly that is a stronger argument than

millions of children die each year from treatable disease and starvation, and much of the world lives in poverty and ignorance, so I understand why abortion happens. And it is `insane` to point out how 40,000,000 is only a small part of the worlds population. INSANE.

The logic of ABORTION SUX must trump all. Truly. :eyes:

[Scout]

160. and if those 6 million Jews had been in some woman's uterus, it would be no one's business

but hers.

logic fail.

the murdered Jews were real actual people, not zygotes, blastocysts, embryos or fetuses.

[GirlinContempt]

161. This is the most fucked up use of the Holocaust

I have EVER encountered.

At least, that I remember.

Holy crap!

[Scout]

163. yeah, the fetus-fetishists seem to think that the holocaust and abortion

have something to do with each other :crazy:

[GirlinContempt]

294. And cancer, apparently!

Car accidents, drinking, and more bizarre crap. W.T.F?

[DireStrike]

224. Decreased.

Decreased. Down from past numbers. Better.

[kanrok]

270. Yeah.

Used to be 45 million.

[uppityperson]

290. used to only be 3 million people on Earth also. Fail.

[Odin2005]

229. Something like 99% of abortions are performed when there is no way...

...the fetus has any sentience, unlike the woman, who is actually a person.

[kanrok]

271. Ahhh...Sentience,

The last bastion of the idiot.

[Odin2005]

276. Belief in "souls", the last bastion of the deluded.

[kanrok]

278. Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

You bore me.

Why don't you go and study the difference between haploid and diploid gametes.

Better yet go ask you professor, biology major.

[Arkana]

245. If abortion was illegal, that number would double--and you'd add

the numbers of women who died having back-alley abortions.

Get off your high horse.

[kanrok]

272. Where did I say that we should make abortions illegal?

Go ahead, show me where I said that.

I'll wait.

[beam me up scottie]

292. You said that we're killing children, surely you don't think that should be legal?

Let's have a look at what you said so far:

Rights are great.
Do we extend them to fetuses?
I mean, when do their rights begin?

you wouldn't mind going back in the womb and having your body parts torn asunder

And you wonder why people hold pro-death proponents in contempt.

And kills children.

What abortion really does is end life.

It starts with fertilization and ends at death.

if pro-choice people were so damned interested in protecting lives they would see abortion for what it is, instead of pretending that those children who are aborted are just a conglomeration of cells.

I can see why my side calls you "pro-death."

Only 6 million jews were killed in concentration camps in WWII!

you're all right with dismembering a "fetus" seconds before it is "pushed out?"

You spent days demonizing women for having abortions, I think we all know what your point is, you're just too afraid to come right out and say it.

What are you doing here?

[Scout]

305. standing O here ^^^ too! n/t

[Orsino]

8. "Pick-And-Choose Life." n/t

[debbierlus]

14. Kick - that is what the pro-life people consider pro-life

Safe abortion is protection for women. Women will have abortions whether they like it or not. The point of legal abortions is to keep it safe for the woman, so that she will come to no harm.

I don't know why the pro-choice side doesn't point out this obvious fact and call them pro-death to women.

[Zomby Woof]

39. Further evidence that anti-choice is anti-woman

...and to its logical extreme, pro-death.

The anti-choice zealots want to outlaw abortion. In the name of protecting zygotes and embryos (which have no rights, asswrenches), untold increasing numbers of women (who do, or should - in places they don't - have rights) would die everywhere it is criminalized. This study is an accurate indicator of where the anti-choice position would lead if enacted where abortion is now safe and legal.

The anti-choice position isn't "pro-life" at all. It's religious zealotry, and more often than not, misogyny - shielded under the pretense of morality and compassion.

[armyowalgreens]

41. It's rooted in misogyny. But many honestly believe that an embryo has a soul.

I was raised in a household that whole heartedly believes that abortion is murder.

[MajorChode]

130. So what? Most racists won't admit to being a racist either

Just because they don't believe they are misogynists for believing abortion is murder, doesn't mean they aren't.

If a woman is raped and gets pregnant, then has an abortion. Is that murder?

If a woman is likely to die if she takes a pregancy to term and she has an abortion, is that murder?

Some people might still say yes to both of those questions, and I find it hard to believe that they aren't misogynists. If they say no to either of them, then they can't call it murder.

[tekisui]

135. They have been conditioned by misogynistic organizations to

believe that. I argue, fine the embryo is life. I won't fight that battle. But, the pregnant woman is life and has the right to make decisions about the life she is carrying, including terminating the pregnancy when she chooses.

[Zomby Woof]

198. Believing an embryo has a soul falls under "religious zealotry"

But I am not going to go too far off-topic into theological hair-splitting or round-robins on materialism or mind-body dualism. Anyway, to slightly revise my above post, my "pretense" comment was too broad a brush. I know many sincere, well-meaning, otherwise seemingly reasonable people who are fiercely anti-choice, often due to the dictates of their religious dogma - but that does not mean they or others have adopted that position without their own, independently formed moral or ethical framework.

Some anti-choice people want to outright criminalize abortion, thinking that not only would that be a deterrent (it's unlikely, as we have seen - no more than capital punishment has magically deterred murders) - but that it would also validate their position that it is murder, by codifying it into law.

Others see criminalization as just one weapon in a multi-pronged attack, including reducing the numbers through better access to birth control, better pre-natal care and gynecological care, adoption counseling, or even abstinence education (paging Bristol Palin, red courtesy phone). At least by this point, these select anti-choicers are not thinking in purely reactive terms. In fact, advocating for increased access to birth control and/or better sex education is about the only common ground some anti-choicers have with some pro-choicers. The key word is "some", knowing that many anti-choicers also have religious prohibitions regarding birth control, and many pro-choicers aren't necessarily concerned with reducing the number of abortions (although they would likely decrease by default if there was more birth control, etc.). It's also a given that the ineffective tool of abstinence education is usually religiously motivated.

There are even a few pragmatic anti-choicers who avoid efforts to criminalize, knowing full well it would not be a deterrent, and could possibly endanger the lives of women. They usually concentrate solely on the prevention measures outlined in the previous paragraph, and often bolster these objectives by actively discouraging abortion via propaganda or counseling. Because they aren't seeking criminalization - a scarlet letter will do. They use shame, fear, guilt, and psychological manipulation in lieu of revising the laws.

There are also agnostics, atheists, and other secular sorts, who are anti-choice and use their philosophical foundation to rationalize their position.

As for misogyny, I personally know anti-choicers who would not fit even the loosest definition of a misogynist, even as they may not realize or intend that their position encourages, enables, or otherwise strengthens misogynistic practices and beliefs held by others on their side. As I stated in the beginning of this post, and will elaborate further but briefly here, there are people of sincere moral conviction, who could very well be liberal in all other areas of their political ideology and social customs, who are simply anti-choice, and will hold firmly to that regardless of however many sound arguments one can throw their way to the contrary.

That's about as fair as I can be concerning anti-choicers. The well-meaning, sincere ones are only the slightest notch above the foaming zealots, by virtue of their demeanor and attempts to be logical (I have yet to see any reasonable anti-choicers on DU, and I have been here for over 8 years - but I suppose some are around, just not in this thread). By and large, anti-choicers are generally conservative, practice Christianity (evangelical and fundamentalist stripes, or Catholicism), authoritarian, and are disproportionately male. Of course, I am of the opinion that even one anti-choice male is too many.

A woman's body belongs to her, period. It belongs to HER.

[uppityperson]

70. Keep abortion safe and legal. Make it safe and legal where it isn't. Save lives. eom

[debbierlus]

94. Wow. Only 16 recommendations for this thread. That is sad and pathetic

[uppityperson]

96. I missed it earlier so am kicking since can't rec now

[niyad]

137. I'll kick, too. our little fr troll was even more amusing after I left yesterday.

[Zomby Woof]

234. There are several in this thread

I replied to a tombstone last night. :D

[kanrok]

274. Awww...how cute

You made a joke.

Not a good one, but a joke nonetheless.

[PeaceNikki]

183. This is why ALL anti-choice laws should be repealed

Long, but a great read.

(PDF) http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/action/repeal.pdf

No country needs to regulate abortion via criminal or civil law. Only when abortion has the same legal status as any other health procedure can it be fully integrated into women’s reproductive healthcare.

by Joyce Arthur

The repeal of abortion laws is supported by evidence from Canada, the only democratic country in the world with no laws restricting abortion since 1988. Abortions have since become earlier and safer, and the number of abortions has become moderate and stable. Current abortion care reflects what most Canadians are comfortable with, and women and doctors act in a timely and responsible manner, with no need for regulation.

Several legal arguments help build the case for abortion law repeal. A constitutional guarantee of women’s equality can be used to overturn abortion laws, and ensure that abortion is funded by the healthcare system as a medically-required service. Freedom of religion, the right to privacy, and the right to self-defense can also be used to strike down laws. All anti-abortion restrictions are unjust, harmful, and useless because they rest on traditional religious and patriarchal foundations. Laws kill and injure women, violate their human rights and dignity, impede access to abortion, and obstruct healthcare professionals.

Solutions for Repealing Anti-abortion Laws
Here’s some suggested solutions to get rid of harmful anti-abortion laws:
? Guarantee women’s equality in countries’ constitutions.
? Collect evidence of laws’ harms, find plaintiffs, and challenge laws in court.
? Lobby government against abortion restrictions (meet with legislators, submit briefs).
? Educate media, government, health professionals, and public about the harm and futility of abortion restrictions.
? Challenge the religious basis of anti-abortion laws, and keep church and state separate.
? Change the rhetoric: Abortion is not a “necessary evil.” Abortion is a moral and positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, and protects families.
? Empower women in society by changing public policies.
? Change patriarchal attitudes about women and motherhood through advocacy and education.
? Prioritize childcare and child-rearing as a universal concern, not a “woman’s issue.”

Some of these proposed solutions are obviously very difficult and would take many years. But one has to start somewhere.

To conclude, no country needs any laws against abortion whatsoever. We can trust women to exercise their sensible moral judgment; we can trust doctors to exercise their professional medical judgment, and that’s all we need to regulate the process.

[GirlinContempt]

188. Yay for my home and native land

:D Sorry had to throw that in there.

Good post.