One of my friends from college, who considers himself some sort of Libertarian, posted a video of Ron Paul criticizing Obama winning the Nobel Prize on Facebook. As expected, it drew some right-wing mouth-breathers to the comments section, and as usual, I just couldn't keep my mouth shut. This may not mean anything to anyone else out there, but I thought it was hilarious just how easy it was to turn a half-informed rightie into a raving lunatic, simply by refuting her points. I also had the help of another guy who I've never met before, who I've labeled as "Helper," but the truth is that I might have been HIS helper. This is pretty long, but I think it's funny. Here's the exchange:
Link to the video posted (in case you're interested):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SS2rWMPllEMy Helper started out carrying the ball with this reaction to the video: "Blatherings of senility? He goes on and on and on like John Galt in Atlas Shrugged. Yawwwwn..... since Ayn Rand didn't specifically cover this little situation he's really at a loss to put it together. I'd say disagree but that would require a point to disagree with."
Original Poster's reaction: "Wow James..you resort to name calling and ageism when you can't make an intellectual argument. thats Ok...even at 74 Ron Paul routinely displays his incredible acumen of economic and constitutional princples..and makes both progressives and neocons look intellectually challenged.."
Helper: "Ron Paul is an Ayn Rand quoter and nothing more."
Helper again: "Intellectual argument? Okay here's one: Libertarians are only defined by what they oppose because they have no defined agenda "after" they have their no-government, no taxes, free market laissez faire capitalist paradise. They have no answers! If you cannot tell me how we're going to have road maintenance in plain language you cannot be taken seriously as a political ideology and only deserve contempt."
Right-Wing Mouth Breather who simply MUST join the fray: "Throughout history every generation has experienced war. It was not invented by the Bush family. I find it incredibly funny when people find comfort in bashing the war situation, GWB, and praise Obama for all the inspiring change he is going to bring to our nation. First of all...ever stop to think we, the general public, are probably privy to maybe 5% of what is actually going on in the political circles running our country. And that's the 5% THEY decide to feed us. Politicians have PR people for a reason. Secondly...the war in Iraq has been brewing since the Clinton days but our great president at the time was to busy to deal with it. He was trying to regain the respect of the public so he could get a good book deal because he was caught using the oval office like it was the backseat of a pontiac. That's classy. (Here is where she must have edited sometime later to add this stuff, because I've never seen these paragraphs before just now, otherwise I would have torn them apart too) Third...remember 9/11? The war in Iraq was happening on our soil or theirs...hmmmmm...thanks GWB for dealing with a volitale, unstable, murdurous situation on their turf. Thank you for shielding my children the horror of seeing war in their backyard. 9/11 showed we are vulnerable, attackable, and accessible. Thanks GWB for keeping it off our land...and trust me I don't advocate war but it is a reality and I wish innocent people in Iraq were not being harmed. That is why I am not only thankful I was born in America EVERYDAY but I do not take it for granted and I respect it. As far as Obama winning the NPP.....it's exactly that.....a PRIZE. Let's give some recognition to the team of doctors that figured out how to cure paralysis...anybody remember that. Let's see people who defined their goals clearly, followed through with their plan, and actually accomplished what the said they were going to do....noooooo brainer.... All politicians bend the rules, truth, etc. Can't please all the people all the time. But what is truly wrong is when a president makes his own rules, manipulates policies and does it while throwing out a story about how his children humble him. He probably appointed another Czar and met with his campaign financial officers while I wrote this sermon. He's building his own government with people who do have to be elected by the public. Now why would anybody think it's okay to give this man a NPP? Give him a copy of a the checks and balances, test him and when he passes then I'll give him a chance."
Helper: "Jennifer--here's your tinfoil hat. You dropped it again."
RWMB: "You're wrong...it's steel and it's red, white and blue but tinfoil is interesting...probably all anybody will be able to afford when this administration is done with us."
Helper: "Yeah, because we'd be so much better with total deregulation, everything privatized, no public education, no social services, no consumer protection, no need for the Bar Exam, physician's licenses, no FBI, no FDA, no FCC, no unemployment, no FTC and rely upon the goodwill of the very rich to provide society with stability, fairness and a solid middle class. By the way, anyone can wave a flag."
Helper again: "Thanks GWB for starting a war based on terrible, un-actionable intelligence and rammed through Congress based on lies and platitudes against a nation not responsible for 9/11; thanks for dividing this country between patriots that believe "my country--wrong or right" and patriots that don't want to sacrifice liberty for security; thanks for the 100,000 Iraqi's that needlessly died--most of which were non-combatants--and the poor soldiers just trying to do their jobs that were only in the military because thanks to capitalism there aren't any jobs left. Thanks GWB."
RWMB: "I love the way the rich are always criticized and blamed for everything. James, you know nothing about me and I never personally attacked you. I simply stated my opinion about the government situation as you did. And you're right, anyone can wave a flag because we live in America. Maybe I should go down to the above mentioned offices and give them 80% of my net income so you think I understand America and I'm worthy of waving my flag. Are we all not entitled to an opinion without be scolded? I'm glad James has seen the light and he's thanking GWB! WHOO HOOO!"
Helper: "The rich are criticized and blamed for everything because they are usually responsible. Gee, weird how that works isn't it? I'm sorry, but I can't take your drawn straight from the latest Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity rah-rah-Republican views seriously. There's no need for you to give anyone in the government 80% of your income because chances are your employer already takes 98% of it as surplus profit and puts it in their pocket. Economically--THIS is the real problem in America--failure of equitable pay for labor and the inability of 'we the people' to do anything about it made more absurd by our addiction to high profile, cheap credit living. Trust me, I don't put the blame in one corner, but I do recognize the ultimate cause of capitalism."
RWMB: "I don't watch any of that crap and my views are my own...not the latest email being passed around. I know my employer is on the up and up because I'm self-employed. Your comment about the rich proves my point. They are like bees...nobody seems to like them but if they disappeared the world would suffer. I don't know if you know any of "the rich" but I do. They are not all brats handed money in the cradle. They actually have jobs and you know what.... shhhhh ....big secret, but they actually work, quite diligently. HMMMM...can't imagine why they are successful. Every sect of life has people that take advantage, the rich are not excluded. It's a shame you view "them" as a race that needs to be banished. If you see me as a rah-rah republican feel free. I'm not defending myself anymore. I'll pick up my "tinfoil" hat and not spoil your party any longer. Funny, my best friend loves Obama and we can debate with respect all day long...and my hat never gets insulted."
Helper: "I'll bet you the rich people you know aren't really rich but upper middle class. Either petty owners of small business or highly compensated wage slaves without any real voice or ownership in their workplace. But useful pets nonetheless. The world isn't Atlas Shrugged. If the rich left the world would be a better place. We don't need them, they are the parasites sucking off the productivity of the workers. You believe that people get rich because of hard work? Not really. You can get a decent paycheck but the path to real wealth is through ownership and capitalist exploitation. Take Bill Gates as an example--has he personally performed 50-100 billion dollars worth of work himself? Or, is that money derived from the ownership of Microsoft built off the surplus profits earned by the tens of thousands of laborers he exploits? Like you said--it takes hard work to become rich... make sure to ask them WHOSE work it was that got them their piles of loot."
Helper again: "Also, if you wouldn't have went all gang busters in your 'introductory post' maybe I could take you a little bit more seriously, but you come across as a typical conservative product with a narrow view of the world, a chip on the shoulder, and no care in the world except yourself. I'm sorry but I just can't take that too seriously. If you want to learn how to discuss pay attention to Eric. He usually backs up his claims with some substance and isn't afraid to ask the hard questions of his beliefs."
RWMB starts getting defensive: "Wow. You not only insult me but the people I know as well. And you are wrong on both accounts, not "petty business owners" or "wage slaves." I don't care if you take me seriously. I find your words laughable and your description of me couldn't be farther from the truth. Obviously having an opinion that differs from the liberal view equates to being selfish. I used to be a teacher and this reminds me of the teacher's lounge and how the upper administration was responsible for all wrong doings. Not true then, not true now. Blaming others isn't an attribute of mine. Shame you see everything so negative. Like I said, I never insulted you. You're entitled to your opinion. Hope that all works out for you."
Now, having seen this exchange unfolding, I jump into the conversation: "Anyone who believes "hard work = rich" should talk to a farmer. Farmers work harder than probably anyone else in this country. Know any rich ones? As far as my feelings on Libertarians go, I actually have some Libertarian leanings myself, and have some amount of respect for Ron Paul. However, the true test for a Libertarian is when their house is burning down. Do they call the fire department, or do they grab a hose (and, mind you, that hose better not be hooked up to a city water supply)? Pure Libertarianism is a nice theory, but if a person knew or realized all the ways the government makes his/her life better in just one day, Libertarianism would fall flat on its face."
Then I try to bring things back to JUST the video: "Point of order. The Anti-War Left was NEVER "Anti-War." We were Anti-IRAQ War. Afghanistan actually did have connections to Osama Bin Laden and 9/11, and that's why you never heard a peep from the "Anti-War Left" even when military operations in Afghanistan started. So Ron is wrong about that. Afghanistan WAS under control, with the pro-al Qaeda Taliban driven out early on, but when Bush got distracted and diverted all the troops to his little personal vendetta in Iraq, the Taliban came roaring back. So Afghanistan needs to have its al Qaeda influence neutralized again before we can even discuss pulling troops out of there. That's why the "Anti-War Left" isn't yelling about drawing down in Afghanistan. Not blind support of Obama."
RWMB just can't help herself: "Thought I could stay out of this but yes I do know some very wealthy farmers. I worked on a farm 72 hours a week for three years and your right it is hard work. One of the best jobs I ever had and I was able to purchase my first home with a 50% down payment because of it. I am still reaping the benefits of that one. Since when has "working hard" equated to being poor and stupid. I've worked hard my whole life and never once has it detracted from my financial portfolio. I think government is in a constant state of transition and we need it in our lives. Liberal and conservative views are both valid but the attitude of being owed something for doing nothing is tearing our country apart. Maybe if everyone got up in the morning with the intention of "working hard, fair and smart" we could compromise."
Helper: "The American Dream: it stops being great when it stops being you. Kind of like poverty: it stops being laziness when it starts becoming you. With unemployment continuing to rise and there being no end in sight, almost none of us are safe. When enough people lose everything they'll start figuring out who the bad guys are, and before you know it--social democracy."
RWMB: "Life is what you make it. Motivation to create change is the mother of invention...but that does require a little hard work. Not to mention that being thankful for what you have, even if it's next to nothing."
Me: "Simple solutions are for simple minds. The people who tell you, "If you're poor, just get a job," are usually the same ones helping to ensure that jobs are scarce, and the ones that ARE available are low-paying, no-benefits jobs. We're living in The Golden Age of Minimum Wage. A factory worker loses his $25/hr. job (with benefits) at the plant and gets a minimum-wage-no-benefits job at Wal-Mart, and the people who are unaffected by it all say that's a zero-sum. That's why I hate the "simple solution" people. They don't live in the real world and if they've experienced it at all, it was only from a safe distance. They tell you that improving your life is easy, just do XYZ, then they work to make sure it's impossible for you to do X and Y. Want to get ahead in life? Get an education! It's just that easy! Oh, and by the way, we're cutting funding for programs that help low-income students get educations. Good luck, Tiny Tim. You should have chosen your parents better before you decided to be born into a poor family. So, I'm afraid life is NOT "what you make it." A lot of people are dealt a very bad hand from birth. The fact that you have the luxury of thinking that hard work and determination solves everything only proves how well you had it. And good for you. But you simply MUST realize that not everyone is you, and that not being you shouldn't be a death sentence."
Helper: "(The above poster) has profound wisdom. Everyone should read and re-read his posts. He not only gets it, but spells it out perfectly."
RWMB begins to feel backed into a corner and starts to counterpunch: "Again, the comments fly like you know me and have my life resume at your finger tips. You have no idea what I have experienced in life as I have no idea about your background. This is why I'm not criticizing you. I am well aware that everyone is not me and not being me is by no means a life sentence. How you got that is amazing in itself. It's also amazing how negativism is linked to unsuccessful ventures related to any aspect of life. I've had to be positive and motivated for reasons you may not understand and I don't think I should have to apologize for that. I'm proud of my beliefs and if you don't agree more power to you. The ability to accept others is a powerful force. It's always worked for me no matter what that W2 said. Pre-judging leads to negative unfocused thinking and it's something I've never understood. Having motivation and a solid work ethic should never be a detriment and used against someone."
Helper: "This acting like a mystery inside a riddle wrapped in an enigma is old. If you want to tell your life story--please do; if you don't want to share with the others than please be quiet with how nobody knows you. If you don't share we can't know; if you don't want to share you'll have to live with our assumptions based on what you've said in the post."
Me: "It's not you that's being attacked. It's the "I got mine; screw you if you haven't" attitude. Espousing that belief allows people to draw conclusions about your life (particularly when it is done while professing one's "ability to accept others"). We could play a little question-and-answer game that would demonstrate this to you clearly, but the point was never to make this about you. It just offends me when, to borrow a particularly well-turned phrase, people were born on third base and think they hit a triple (and, again, all the while professing their "ability to accept others" out of one side of their mouth, and their belief that people who never made it out of the batter's box are somehow unworthy or subhuman out of the other). I'm sure you THINK you have a genuine, hard-luck, local girl makes good, rags-to-riches story worthy of a feel-good Disney movie (it seems that everyone who wants to deny others a leg up does). But in just a few short questions, I can demonstrate to you just how much better you've had it than millions upon millions of Americans."
Helper: "...and billions and billions of people across the world."
RWMB swinging wildly: "I think you people need therapy. I owe you nothing and quite frankly you are like a broken record. I could be really nasty and draw conclusions about you but it's not worth my time. Apparently I have to go polish a silver spoon which never existed and apologize to everyone I meet today because I've experienced success through hard work all this while looking down my nose at the world..... LOL. Have fun being incredibly negative people who pre-judge. After looking at some profile pages I know now exactly where you coming from and quite honestly if you hate America so much.... leave."
Me: "See, that's the problem with getting your opinions from bumper stickers. When you haven't been given the ammunition to defend them, it results in anger, defensiveness, and resorting to empty platitudes and yet MORE bumper-sticker thoughts like "you hate America, so leave." Behold the arrogance of the right wing. We're America and you're not, so just F off and die. I think that's a direct quote from George Washington, isn't it? Or was it Jesus?"
RWMB, who is now completely disarmed and has nothing left: "What's it feel like to know EVERYTHING? You and my fourteen year old niece have a lot in common."
Then she comes back with this little gem: "Some would say that turning a political discussion into a forum for bashing people who have a belief system different from your own takes an incredibly small mind....or maybe it's because you are so insanely smart and complex you can't help it. Either way.....unbelievable. Maybe someday that complex mind will appreciate the fact that you can bash and be prejudice all on an open forum because you live in America. Your words make it very clear you enjoy the right to rant but throw stones at the "simple-mided" people who defend those rights.Excuse me while I laugh. Funny how I say one thing and you twist it to a vulgar level. Don't remember saying "F off and die" but that is the transparency of your negative attitude ripping the political discussion apart. If there are people who are not happy living in America and would rather support socialism, go do that. Believe me, nobody is stopping you. So instead of ripping on people who actually stand up and live the life they defend, do something about your own so you're not so miserable. I know, I know...probably got that from a bumper sticker too. Amazing"
Helper jumps in to help finish her off: "Jennifer, the main problem is that you STILL cannot get over yourself. It's all about you, it's all an attack on you, it's all about your hard work, your dedication, your success, your feelings, your this, your that.... and it makes you boring. It also blinds you to having true perspective."
Finally, RWMB can take no more: "Sure"
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