We’re all slaves now

[Cyrano]

A slave is a piece of property owned by someone or some entity.

I really need someone to convince me that the majority of us are not owned by health insurance companies, banks, companies that pay our salaries and can discard us in a second, and a political system that gives us few choices. (Shackles and whips are not needed in today’s world.)

For all the truths, bitching, advice, suggestions, anger, rants, and opinions posted on DU daily, the fact that we are slaves never comes up. But make no mistake about it. We are all owned. As long as we live in this country and play by the rules, we have little or nothing to say about how we are governed, manipulated and screwed on a daily basis.

Need more proof? About 75% of the people in this country want a public health care option (and perhaps even a single payer system like the rest of the civilized world has). Yet, what we want is being ignored.

How secure is your job? Even if you belong to a union, the company you work for could pick up and move to Bangladesh next week. “Official” government unemployment figures aside, countless millions of Americans are out of work because most work has been shipped to countries that pay people perhaps as much as $1 a day. None of us had any say in that, or the means to prevent it.

How many of you read the small print in your mortgage? The purpose of small print is to ensure that you can get fucked by whoever is holding your mortgage anytime they want to fuck you.

And regarding our two party political system, about the only thing we can be sure of is that Democrats will sell us out reluctantly, while Republicans will sell us out with glee.

So can anyone explain to me how you can believe we are not slaves?

[valerief]

1. I think it's time Americans co-oped their country. nt

[TexasObserver]

2. That's what Jim Morrison said.

I have to admit that it does seem the government is hiring more and more goons to do unsavory things to US, to make US do theirs and government's bidding. From the illiterates who poke and prod us at airport entry points in the name of national security, to the mouth breathers who tase us on the side of the road for asserting our rights, to the insurers who force us to buy their coverages for homes, cars and now, our bodies, we are owned by the globalist corporations who run our government.

Yeah, it blows goats.

Blackwater, Haliburton, GE, Goldman Sachs.

Robber barons never had it so good.

[cali]

3. dog, this is such bullshit.

The truth is that you and I and everyone posting here, won the fucking lottery as to where we were born. Oh, maybe we didn't win the top prize of Norway, but billions of people- yes, billions- don't have the luxury to diddle themselves with the kind of crap you're playing with. As for this not coming up, it comes up regularly on DU and I expect you'll be well rewarded with hundreds of recs for this drivel.

There are people who are truly enslaved on this planet. Enslaved in a way that you evidently don't have the imagination or compassion to comprehend.

NO I AM NOT SAYING HOW WONDERFUL THIS COUNTRY IS. I'm just saying it ain't slavery and the lot of you sitting comfortably at your computers and bitching doesn't make it so.

Oh yeah, unrecced.

[Cyrano]

7. Nice rant, Cali. Now, how about making a case regarding the issues I posted?

And you have no idea what I know about those truly enslaved on this planet. The never-ending cruelty that exists seems to just go on and on. But the lack of cruelty and horrors we associate with slavery, doesn't mean that we are a free people.

[cali]

9. you posted no facts. you posted opinion.

I made clear MY opinion about what you posted.

[Cyrano]

25. Oh, okay.

So I guess that the majority of people don’t want a public health option. I guess that unemployment is no big deal (if you have a job). I guess the small print in mortgages is put there for our benefit. I guess that those who rent can’t be tossed out on their asses for missing rent payments. And I guess that the Democrats would never sell us out.

But as long as I’m replying, to you, let me say that I rarely get pissed off on DU, but you’ve managed to get me there.

Just what the hell do you think you know about me? Am I white? Am I black? Am I a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, a Druid? How do you know I’ve never been to Rwanda and seen the unspeakable horrors first-hand? How do you know I’ve never been to any of the other torture chambers of this stinking planet and seen, smelled, or experienced the most horrendous crimes that human beings can commit against each other?

You don’t. Yet, your posts assume that I’m just sitting here typing up some bullshit to make it to “PAGE 1.”

I really couldn’t give a shit how many people recommend, unrecommend, or do nothing on this post. I just want people to read it and recognize that most of us are indentured servants. We are not (always) slaves who are tased, dragged behind pickup trucks, or left to die because we have no insurance. But make no mistake about it. Most of us are dwelling in economic slavery. And once you're owned economically, what's to prevent the physical horrors that have always accompanied slavery?

Although it's not a perfect example, look at how quickly Bush/Cheney descended into the torture chambers of the dark ages. Do you really think that couldn't happen here? (And with what we know about Cheney, who's to say it hasn't already happened?)

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[CalvinandHobbes]

159. We know you haven't or you would not

equate peing paid wages or having to pay health insurance to being enslaved.

[Deja Q]

10. Well said.

[Cyrano]

33. See post #25 above.

[tammywammy]

13. Agreed n/t

[Cyrano]

34. See post #25 above.

[tammywammy]

36. See post #32 n/t

[Cyrano]

40. See post # 37. -- Your turn.

[Javaman]

72. see post #347. nt

[JNelson6563]

140. Little people enslavment here in the US is much better

therefore quit yer bitchin'!

Brilliant! I expect n0o less from you.

Julie

[laughingliberal]

171. Just because it's a nicer slavery than some other forms does not mean it is not slavery nt

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

4. The only thing I disagree with in your post is the word "reluctantly"

in the next to the last sentence. I see no reluctance.

We are serfs, wage-slaves, whatever you want to call it who are seeing the quality of life erode daily around ourselves. The primary problem is that we have an openly corrupt Congress that legislates against the interests of the individual citizen on a daily basis. We also have a Supreme Court that has opined that it is perfectly fine for a city town or state to take your property and give it to another private citizen. We have no privacy. Apparently, as far as I know, the policy of "indefinite detention" has never been officially renounced. We have private prisons and I guess some towns are now paying private police forces.

So, yes, we are completely F!@#ed.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

12. On second thought, serf is more accurate than slave

A member of the lowest feudal class, attached to the land owned by a lord and required to perform labor in return for certain legal or customary rights (per thefreedictionary.com)


We have to perform labor in exchange for legal or customary rights - healthcare being the primary one. Other countries have released their serfs by acknowledging that healthcare is a human right divorced from the land (employer)

[Brickbat]

5. I find this kind of broad-brush self-indulgence embarrassing.

No one owns me.

[cali]

6. oh, but you're just in denial. you're identifying with the slaveholders. You're too

stupid to realize it. blah, blah, blah.

[Pharlo]

8. Slaves

have available work and get room and board.

[cali]

11. oh so we're worse of than actual real slaves

garbage of the worst kind.

[kctim]

14. What a load of crap

You have a choice when it comes to health insurance, what banks to use, what company to work for and who to vote for. SLAVES DO NOT HAVE CHOICES! They are a "piece of property owned by someone or some entity." NOBODY owns you and there is ONLY one entity capable of owning you.

This boils down to nothing more than you not getting what you want and feeling ignored. You are spoiled, not enslaved.

[Whisp]

16. do you truly believe there is a true 'choice' in those things you listed?

come on....

Its more like you have a choice of whom you get screwed by, variations may differ.

you're talking like the US is the land of the free or something. good cripes.

[kctim]

21. Every one of them was a choice I made

and I am free to change that choice at anytime I so please.
Slaves can do no such thing.

We aren't a nation of slaves, we are a nation who wishes to give up those choices in order to become slaves.

[Whisp]

23. are you sure?

you say you can choose your health insurance but you can't choose universal health care, so thats no choice at all in my mind. You can't choose a civilised way to deal with health care. You are a slave to the insurance companies.

You say you can walk into any bank and use it, but the banks are really using you, didn't notice?

you say you can vote for whom you please, but only those that are paid well by corporations are the ones allowed to get to the top tiers of power. There may be a renegade here and there, but its the money that elects politicians, not your X.

I can understand why you would squirm but you really are owned and don't have as much choice as the media keeps yelling in your ear you do.

[kctim]

31. Am I sure? Without a doubt

Yes, I can choose my health insurance, but I cannot choose UHC because it is not offered. Why is it not offered? Because there is no choice under it, you are a part of it and you pay into it.

ALL of my dealings with my healthcare provider has been more than civilized, I would choose a different provider if they were not. As like the vast majority, I also have not had a significant problem with the insurance company. Granted I save and use cash for most things, but I had no problem the few major times I needed them.

Sorry, but I don't fall into the 'my vote means nothing,' 'corporations are the problem,' or 'govt is the problem' crowds. Yes, money helps them get heard, but votes are what put them into seats. President Obama is President because the people voted for him and I do not accept your premise that he is a bought and paid for shill for the corporations.

I can understand why you think you are owned, its alot easier than facing reality and embracing the responsibility that comes with it. Its easier to blame somebody else or some 'entity' when one does not get their way or get what they believe should be handed to them for nothing. And when all else fails, take the rightwing route and blame the media instead of facing the facts.

I have lived without a bank. I have lived without insurance. I have lived 'off the grid.' And I could go back to that anytime I so choose.
No slave could that.

[omega minimo]

78. Self reliance is important, yet you are not acknowledging how available choices are being reduced,

restricted, even permanently removed, for the nation's people as a whole.

Being "free" to choose from fewer options in a rigged game is a form of serfdom, servitude. Especially when those forces rigging the game in the "Land of the Free" own the ballot counting machines and the media that reports on elections.

[kctim]

121. It's only rigged if you play by their rules

Look, I'm not naive enough to believe there is none of the stuff you mention going on, but I have taken measures so that I am not a part of it. Since I am not a smoker, there is nothing I do which I do not choose.

[omega minimo]

122. You choose to look at yourself and not the bigger picture. Yet the noose tightens.

[kctim]

128. For good reason

IF everybody else did so, those you fear, would hold no power over them and the bigger picture would be that the people are not voluntarily indebted to those they say they despise.

There is no noose tightening around my neck, I will die a free man. Hopefully I have taught my children well enough to follow in my steps.

[omega minimo]

130. No man is an island.

[Whisp]

129. A bank/credit card can, out of the blue and without notice,

suddenly charge you 3 times the amount on your monthly bill than they previously did. They are free to do that. Your representatives in all levels of government have allowed them to do it and will continue to allow them to do it.

Now that's what I call freedom.

[tammywammy]

155. And I have the freedom to not use credit cards n/t

[Whisp]

156. that must be nice for you.

but a lot of people use credit cards for the only way to pay for medical bills.

but you just keep feeling superior now.

[tammywammy]

157. Yes, SOME people need credit cards for medical bills

MOST people that use credit cards do not.

[kctim]

165. They can't if you choose not to have a credit card.

[Sinti]

135. You must be highly skilled in a very specialized field.

Given this statement. "I am free to change that choice at anytime I so please." I'm quite happy for your good fortune :)

[kctim]

166. Nope.

Just an average guy with an average job who was lucky enough to have parents who knew the importance of saving and discouraged rather than encourage debt.

[fascisthunter]

17. we don't have much of a choice

banks, health insurance are mandatory and corrupt. A choice in health insurance would be a single payer or a public option. The only people spoiled and selfish are those who like things the way they are, because the current system works for them.

[Echo In Light]

24. +1

[kctim]

28. Neither banks nor health insurance are mandatory

we are not forced to use a bank or to have health insurance, yet.

Single payer and the public option require mandatory participation and support. The ONLY choice with them will be the choice to pay for two plans instead of just one.

Big deal. So 80+ percent of Americans are spoiled and selfish, doesn't make them slaves.

[fascisthunter]

114. oh really... try getting by without either

I live with some who don't, and it fucking sucks. You think those people I live with are spoiled too?

Big deal my ass... when you get sick and you are near dead, do us all a favor, go without healthcare coverage, or a bank account, big guy.

[kctim]

125. I have

and even now, they are a minimum part of my life. I do not have a checking account, I use cash. And yes, I can still get ANYTHING I need by using cash. It does not suck, in fact, it is quite liberating. I am 42, so I do not believe I entitled to the things I cannot afford.

Don't worry about me if I get sick and am near death, I am quite capable.

There's no need to get upset man, that and name calling are a sure giveaway that one has no facts to use.

[fascisthunter]

138. Your point of view is warped

Entitlement, is that what you call it?

I seriously doubt you live the way you state you do. I've heard the BS Henry David Thoreau line before from other righties, but I'll go along with it to make my point.

By calling a need an entitlement, you assume folks do not deserve the right to live healthy... while the upper class does(most of which are born into wealth)... you must think you are clever. Who the hell are you to assume people who don't have healthcare coverage are people who feel entitled? It's a right whether you want to admit it or not.

This is about survival... not about some superficial means of entertainment. We tax payers pay enough money as it is with private health insurance, which is a rip off. But you have no problem with investors of the health insurance industry screwing those of us who already live "within" our means. If you knew what you were talking about you'd already figured that a public option would save everyone money, but maybe you do.

Maybe you are the type that thinks the rich who invest in the Health Insurance Industry should feel entitled to being able to rip people off, and deny their claims due to preconditions, so some smug rich investor can sit around on their fat lazy asses.

Angry? I'm pissed... that's what happens when you have a conscience.

I side with the poor... you side with those who take advantage of the poor... so save the BS about living within our means, most poor folks already do...

[kctim]

167. Way over your head, huh?

No, I did not call "it," an entitlement. In fact, what I said was "I do not feel entitled to things I cannot afford." Now listen up here, that means I place the things I need above the things I do not need. Sure I don't have the latest and greatest of anything and of course there are things I want, but if I can't pay cash for it, I don't buy it. This enables me to have money for my needs.

It doesn't really mean anything that you "seriously doubt" I live this way. I don't do it in order to please anyone else and to be quite honest, I am not the one on here who is whining, so I must be doing something right.

I didn't call a need an entitlement and you have no idea if I think healthcare is a right or not.
Yes, I am well aware that we are already paying for the poor.
Did I jump across posts again or something? Is this now about healthcare, the poor, or still being slaves?

So, you are pissed because it is you who have a conscience, you side with the poor and I side with evil. Does your conscience just ignore that you know nothing about me and you have no clue? Does it just ignore the fact that more poor people can be helped when fewer lower middle class people such as myself need help?
Does your oh great conscience realize that MORE help can be given to MORE poor people when people such as myself live within OUR means?
If it doesn't, then I am not the one who supports taking advantage of the poor.

[Cyrano]

170. Hi, kctim: I've read your posts and I'm not really sure

why I'm bothering to respond to you.

However, I've decided to answer you just one time because I've always wanted to send a message to someone who wears a cape, is faster than a speeding bullet, and can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

The fact that most of us are stuck with the realities of planet Earth doesn't seem to bother you in any way. So all I can add is, enjoy your stay on our planet.

(Protest this post if you must, but I'm outta here.)

[kctim]

176. I'm touched

thank you for gracing me with your words.

You did forget something though: MOST are stuck with the realities of planet Earth THEY have created for themselves and if MOST of us were more responsible, we would have more than adequate support and resources to aide those who are in dire need. Don't need to be Superman to see that, just common sense.

Protest your post? Hell no, I welcome it. No matter how uninformed and misguided it is.

[hfojvt]

179. I think you have been making sense

but maybe we share a 'what's the matter with Kansas' perspective even though you are in Missouri.

unfortunately sense does not sell well here. Not to people who say or support ridiculous things like 'we are all slaves now'.

I gotta say this slave gig is pretty cool as I sit here in a nice comfy chair and write nonsense verse on the internets. I am gonna spend a couple hours doing family history research and entering data into my laptop computer (can you believe that slaves get laptops, two of them no less). Then I am gonna get a free pizza from Papa Murphy's (slaves get coupons for free pizza too!).

I kinda thought that in the past, slaves toiled from sun-up to sundown and were always told what to do or not do and when, rather than making lots of their own choices. Of course, I only get to make my own choices because I am privileged to work (as a janitor) and am filthy rich (having always been in the bottom quintile). Or because it doesn't fit a preconceived notion of what is possible, I could be making it all up.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

76. neither banks nor health insurance are mandatory

at least not in the short run where people actually live. I went for ove 15 years without any health insurance, and I typically have used credit unions rather than banks. To say that 'banks are corrupt' is kinda meaningless. What does that mean for the average depositor? They still cash my paycheck every two weeks and when I pay bills or write checks, they pay the people that I owe money to.

[Hannah Bell]

109. I don't think "choice" = "freedom". In one sense, there's always "choice," even

in the most limited of circumstances; in a prison, or on a plantation, for example, one still has choices.

What one doesn't have is power to help shape what the choices will be.

I think that's closer to our real current condition.

[kctim]

134. I can see that point

But without choice, there is no freedom and without freedom, there is no choice. Not because they are equal, but because they are different to each of us.

And while I acknowledge it is true in some cases, I do not agree that it represents our overall current condition. We have the power to shape what choices we will have as long as those choices are realistic.

[Hannah Bell]

158. "We have the power to shape what choices we will have as long as those choices are realistic."

i have no idea what this means.

I'll take the example of a slave. He has choices.

He can choose to suck up to the bosses in hopes of being promoted to the cushy house slave or overseer positions.

He can choose to fix up his little slave cabin, keep it neat, raise a little garden, steal a book & figure out how to read, or ask the mistress to teach him. Compose music in his free time, or while working.

He can choose to run away.

He can choose to figure out ways to get away with doing as little as possible, brew likker, steal the master's chickens, & generally be a monkeywrencher.

He can choose to stop eating & die. He can choose to disobey & be punished & eventually be killed if he keeps resisting.

So, he can try to make his lot easier by sucking up to the power that rules him, or gaming & monkey-wrenching, or running away to some unknown situation, or escaping by death. These "choices" are all bounded by the existence of the slave system, & follow its logic.

But he doesn't have any "choice" or input as to whether the system exists, or what its rules are, & the only possible means of affecting these things is open rebellion, not as an isolated individual, but with others.

Is he really so different from us?

If you look at how our "ideas" are mostly given to us from above - I don't think so.

[kctim]

168. Can he not choose to lead the rebellion?

If he chooses not to, then he has chosen to live within the system and its rules. He has chosen to accept the freedoms the system offers and he will choice how to use those freedoms. Once he accepts it and going along with it because 'thats how it is,' and refuses to do anything to change it, he is no longer a slave, he is a sheep.

[Nederland]

185. Yes, he is very different from us

Freedom in a society is defined by the number of things that you can do without someone else legally punishing you for doing them. By this definition, we are much freer than the slave, because the list of things that will end up with him getting legally jailed, beaten, or killed is rather long. He cannot change his residence, he cannot work for someone else, he cannot change careers, etc.

[DireStrike]

149. The industries you mention are so anti-competitive that it does not matter

There as much people fleeing from company A to company B, as there are from company B to company A.

You have no way to impact anything that is done, except to opt out of purchases altogether.

[Echo In Light]

15. Excellent read on the subject:

ONE-DIMENSIONAL MAN. STUDIES IN THE IDEOLOGY OF ADVANCED INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY (1964) by Herbert Marcuse

http://igw.tuwien.ac.at/christian/marcuse/odm.html

"Such new modes can be indicated only in negative terms because they would amount to the negation of the prevailing modes. Thus economic freedom would mean freedom from the economy-from being controlled by economic forces and relationships; freedom from the daily struggle for existence, from earning a living. Political freedom would mean liberation of the individuals from politics over which they have no effective control. Similarly, intellectual freedom would mean the restoration of individual thought now absorbed by mass communication and indoctrination, abolition of "public opinion" together with its makers. The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization. The most effective and enduring form of warfare against liberation is the implanting of material and intellectual needs that perpetuate obsolete forms of the struggle for existence."

[TheKentuckian]

18. I agree with an upthread...serfdom is more appropriate or perhaps permanently indentured

but those who think we have real self determination or equal opportunity are jacked into the matrix.

[cali]

19. oh fucking please

yes, the social and economic construct is difficult to break out of, but it can be done. These hills are teaming with folks doing it. And no, they sure as shit aren't a bunch of bored privileged ex-stockbrokers.

[TheKentuckian]

29. For now perhaps but the gap grows daily while the avenues for sustained growth

are systematically being cut from underneath us.

Virtually the entire nation is between one and a few paychecks from ruin, our education slips, our industries are place in competition with economies on a completely different scale, many of us have spent years and lots of money to educate ourselves only to see fields dry completely up, we are at the mercy of insurance companies if we get ill, we have no control of production, we have children that can only depend on a crappy school lunch and processed junk trying to learn, we have as a people been indebted by corporate communism and military adventure, and as a whole have more debt than property. That's just to wet the appetite!

Get off your high horse because you may have ecked out a small level of security. In all probability it wouldn't take a hell of a lot to ruin you either and if not then it is still stupid to ignore the reality of the majority of our people.

[cali]

45. Tell it to folks in my town.

Local Food Creating Jobs in Hardwick, Vermont
Posted on April 9, 2009

In the early 1900’s Hardwick, Vermont had a booming economy. Like many industrial towns, however, Hardwick’s economic prosperity crashed with the collapse of the granite industry that once sustained it.

Today, this town of 3000 is kick-starting its economy by rebuilding its local food system in a cooperative and comprehensive way. Local farmers, entrepreneurs, artisans, investors, philanthropists and non-profit groups are working together in a multitude of ways to establish local networks. They share resources, help create markets for each other, and make profits from each other’s wastes.

For example, Vermont Soy, which produces tofu and soymilk from locally grown soybeans, stores and cleans its beans at High Mowing Organic Seeds’ facilities. Pete’s Greens is a 30 farm Community Shared Agriculture (CSA) with a commercial kitchen used to produce value added products. It buys High Mowing’s by-products such as pumpkins and squash pulverized to remove their seeds and makes them into soups. Claire’s Bistro, a local Community Supported Restaurant serves high end meals made from local fare. Slow Money, a local lending circle has provided over $300, 000 in short term loans to assist farmers and entrepreneurs with their financial needs.

<snip>
http://sustainontario.com/2009/04/09/156/news/local-food-creating-jobs-in-hardwick-vermont


Uniting Around Food to Save an Ailing Town

THIS town’s granite companies shut down years ago and even the rowdy bars and porno theater that once inspired the nickname “Little Chicago” have gone.

Facing a Main Street dotted with vacant stores, residents of this hardscrabble community of 3,000 are reaching into its past to secure its future, betting on farming to make Hardwick the town that was saved by food.

With the fervor of Internet pioneers, young artisans and agricultural entrepreneurs are expanding aggressively, reaching out to investors and working together to create a collective strength never before seen in this seedbed of Yankee individualism.

Rob Lewis, the town manager, said these enterprises have added 75 to 100 jobs to the area in the past few years.

Rian Fried, an owner of Clean Yield Asset Management in nearby Greensboro, which has invested with local agricultural entrepreneurs, said he’s never seen such cooperative effort.
<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/dining/08verm.html


The Town That Food Saved
10.20.08
Hardwick’s economic future was dim, until a chain of events turned it into one of the most important food towns in America.
Hardwick
Related links

* Learn how low-income areas like Baltimore and the Bronx are tackling nutrition issues
* Explore the cheese cave that may revolutionize Vermont’s artisanal food movement

If you come into the town of Hardwick, Vermont, from the east, you’ll come in on Route 15, weaving through a series of curves that begin as gentle sweeps and get progressively sharper. Route 15 becomes Main Street, and Main Street lasts for about a quarter mile before it hits the town’s only traffic light, which consists of a single, flashing orb at the junctions of Routes 14 and 15. If you turn right, continuing on 15, you’ll immediately pass the Amatuer Boxing Club (it’s for sale), a garage, a gun shop, a pizza place, and a lumberyard, in that order. A bit farther out, there’s a bank and a tractor-repair business. A Ford dealership. A gas station. If you go straight through the light onto 14 South, you’ll pass two auto-parts stores, a school, a cemetery, and a series of residences, many of which are in disrepair. In either direction, you’ll be through Hardwick in two minutes or less, pushing on the accelerator as the speed limit rises again to 50 and the road unfurls across the lush Vermont countryside, helping you forget about the forgettable small town you just left behind. In this way, Hardwick is not unlike scores of other small, hard-bitten towns scattered throughout the American landscape, still clinging to the vapors of whatever industry brought the population together in the first place. In Hardwick, it was granite (Hardwick granite is built into the Pennsylvania State Capitol and Chicago’s City Hall). But the granite industry in Hardwick slowed decades ago, and the town of 3,000 languished. The village developed a reputation as little more than a gallery of rogues; the local drinking establishment, Benny’s, was known throughout northeastern Vermont for its cheap beer and frequent skirmishes. The town earned the nickname “Little Chicago.”

Hardwick softened over the years, as its affordable real estate and pastoral beauty (within town limits, there are 37 miles of paved road and 51-miles of dirt) lured a small clutch of white collar workers willing to brave the 30-mile commute to the state capital of Montpelier. But the economy still suffered: In 2003, the per capita income was a mere $14,287, twenty-five percent below the state average; and last year, Hardwick’s unemployment rate was nearly 30 percent higher than the state average.

But something’s happening in Hardwick, and it’s happening because of food. It could have started with the Buffalo Mountain Food Co-op and Cafe, a small, earthy joint on Main Street that’s been active since 1975. The co-op serves the multitudes of left-leaning back-to-the-landers scattered through the surrounding hills and provides a market—a modest market, but a market—for the local farmers eking out a living from the land. Or maybe it started before that, with Hardwick’s topographical good fortune to be located in a region of ample, fertile farmland and a culture of working the soil. Perhaps it would have happened anyway, the only rational response to a global food system on the brink of crisis and a town desperately needing something on which to hang its future. While the beginning might be hard to identify, the present is not. That’s because, during the past two years, Hardwick has developed a local food infrastructure that is unlike anything to be found in North America. It is at once an amalgamation of a stunning number of food-based businesses in the region (Vermont Soy, Jasper Hill Farm, Pete’s Greens, Patchwork Farm & Bakery, Apple Cheek Farm, Claire’s Restaurant and Bar, and Bonnieview Farm to name only a few) and the keen business savvy of the (mostly) youthful entrepreneurs who spend their days tending livestock, fields of lettuce, and racks of cloth-bound Cheddar. In the evenings, they convene to quaff beers and brainstorm the next step forward for this little settlement, which just might become one of the most important food towns in the United States.

Tom Stearns has a carnival huckster’s energy and a self-confidence that never seems to bleed into arrogance. He is of medium height, with wavy, dirty-blond hair and a long, angular face. He wears thin-rimmed glasses and has a habit of scrunching his nose, which flares his nostrils and makes him look momentarily unhinged. He laughs loudly and often. Thirteen years ago, when Stearns was 19, he started High Mowing Organic Seeds, an organic vegetable, flower, and herb seed company that’s now located in Wolcott, one town west of Hardwick. Today, the business has 30 employees and does between $1.5 and $2 million in annual sales. Because of his energy, charm, and drive, Stearns has become the de facto mouthpiece for Hardwick’s rapidly evolving food scene and the president of the recently formed, nonprofit Center for an Agricultural Based Economy, whose mission is to nurture and promote a sustainable local agricultural economy. I first met with him at a potluck dinner party at Heartbeet Lifesharing, a residential community for special-needs adults, who participate in all aspects of farm operations on the sloping 150 acres of field and forest. There was drumming and a bonfire and small children running across the sunlit lawn clutching rabbits to their chests. A herd of cows grazed on a pasture below the house. Stearns’s vision is to provide the world with a model food system that serves the local population while enriching its producers in ways that range from the cold, hard tangibility of cash to the less precise metrics of social improvement and regional pride. Stearns is not a dogmatic locavore; he believes it is economically and environmentally justifiable to ship products that are financially dense (a pound of liquid milk wholesales for about $0.20; a pound of Jasper Hill’s Bayley Hazen Blue cheese wholesales for $9.75). He sees Hardwick as an antidote to a global food system that’s teetering beneath the weight of energy prices and the capriciousness of nature. “Who’s the biggest user of energy? Agriculture! Who’s the biggest user of land? Agriculture! Who’s the biggest user of water? Agriculture! Who’s the biggest polluter? Agriculture!” He stabbed a finger in the air for emphasis. “All we have are models of broken plans to look at.” He sipped his beer and turned to face me squarely. “In five years, we will have people from all over the planet visiting Hardwick to see what a healthy food system looks like.”
<snip>

http://www.gourmet.com/travel/2008/10/hardwick-revival

[TheKentuckian]

62. Good read but only tenously addressing my thoughts anyway. (nt)

[cali]

64. I think it illustrates that you can buck the system. that people

can change things, that local is the way to effect real change and that all is not fucking hopeless.

[TheKentuckian]

99. I understand that aspect but ideologically it makes a lot more sense

to take the power from those who hold it rather than meekly growing a garden and keeping your head down. Those billions you see are a representation of our common resources that we borrow from the future and the labor of those who came before us hoping for a better world for their progeny.

I'm far from hopeless. I am agitated by those that would cede our mutual inheritance to thugs. I am disappointed by the refusal to bring down failed systems. I refuse to ever slink back to the the past because we as a people are too stupid, meek, and lazy to claim our future.

You local minded folks are turning a blind eye to forces that will consume you at their leisure. It is beautiful that your community is seizing control of food production but that is just a sliver. I look to the future not the past, there are no "good old days" in my mind and if we are to ever have them we can't do it under the weight of a bunch of failed systems championed by useful idiots and those who want to make a buck. We form governments to do what the individual cannot, it is a way to pool resources and effort not to use them as tools for the few.

You haven't bucked the system you have sidestepped it in a meaningful but small way.

[cali]

104. c'mon. a bunch of baby boomers chatting about revol;ution on the internet

isn't a fraction as revolutionary as what we're doing in my little town- and it sure the fuck isn't just growing a garden. We here involved in this are hardly turning a blind eye to anything. Collectively, we're pretty aware and quite savvy. And we're not just blathering, we're doing something. We're being the change we want to see. Act locally. Think globally. It's not just a cliche.

[TheKentuckian]

108. Blathering and doing aren't mutually exclusive

In fact little has ever got done without a fair amount of blather. Nor am I really talking revolution but simply using the limited tools we have in a determined and cohesive fashion. If we all pushed in the same direction relentlessly there would be little choice other than to give up a few more crumbs or roll the tanks on us.

I will grant that slavery (although useful imagery) is the wrong term because the power is there we just don't use it for a variety of shitty reasons.

[Trillo]

20. This isn't discussed on DU, perhaps because it relates to FDR.

There is a line of legal thought "out there" that says our future labor income was used as collateral in some kind of banking scheme. That a Certificate of Live Birth was the initial instrument, and it in turn created a tradable derivative of a corporate name almost identical to our own (all caps IIRC), before the issuance of a Birth Certificate.

If true, it is well hidden, but the concept also explains why we cannot do the same things that corporations do, such as deduct our survival expenses.

If the subject was brought up here, the poster was always attacked, because it relates to FDR and that time period.

[Trillo]

133. Edward Mandell House, a confidant of Woodrow Willson, is said to have told him this

emphasis added:

"Very soon, every American will be required to register their biological property (that's you and your children) in a national system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging. By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will affect our security as a charge back for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer being able to work and earn a living. They will be our chattels (property) and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the lawmerchant under the scheme of secured transactions. Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading (Birth Certificate) to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, secured by their pledges. They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two should figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability. After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debts to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud, which we will call "Social Insurance." Without realizing it, every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and we will employ the high office (presidency) of our dummy corporation (USA) to foment this plot against America."
-Colonel Edward Mandell House

http://www.honesty.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=63

Who is "Colonel" Edward House

I dont' know if the above quote or excerpt is reliable or not. The interesting thing about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson#Federal_Reserve_1913">Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat, is he saw the creation of the Federal Reserve. It's also notable that he was one of the more highly educated presidents we've had, a real "academic".

[Trillo]

141. PIGNUS ... We're all Pignorated Now? Or, WTF is the "ancient system of pledging"?

If one searches for it, there are a lot of higher-education student "fraternity" results. So, that makes this interesting, particularly given that an Academic President and Congress started the Federal Reserve.

William Smith, D.C.L., LL.D.:
A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, John Murray, London, 1875.

PIGNUS, a pledge or security for a debt or demand, is derived, says Gaius (Dig. 50 tit. 16 s238), from pugnus "quia quae pignori dantur, manu traduntur." This is one of several instances of the failure of the Roman Jurists when they attempted etymological explanation of words. The element of pignus (pig) is contained in the word pa(n)g-o, and its cognate forms.

A thing is said to be pledged to a man when it is made a security to him for some debt or demand. It is called, says Ulpian, Pignus when the possession of the thing is given to him to whom it is made a security, and Hypotheca, when it is made a security without being put in his possession (Dig. 13 tit. 7 s9 § 2; Isidor. Orig. V.25; see also Cic. ad Fam. XIII.56). The agreement for pledge which was made without delivery of the p916thing by bare agreement (nuda conventio) is properly Hypotheca (Inst. 4 6 §7). The law relating to Pignus and Hypotheca was in all essentials the same. The object of the pledging is that the pledgee shall in case of necessity sell the pledge and pay himself his demand out of the proceeds. The original nature of pledge perhaps was simply the power of holding a debtor's property as a means of compelling him to pay; and a power of sale would be a matter of agreement; but the later Roman jurists viewed a power of sale as a part of the contract of pledge.

A pledge may be given (res hypothecae dari potest) for any obligation, whether money borrowed (mutua pecunia), dos, in a case of buying and selling, letting and hiring, or mandatum; whether the obligatio is conditional or unconditional; for part of a sum of money, as well as for the whole (Dig. 20 tit. 1 s5). Any thing could be the object of pledge which could be an object of sale (Dig. 20 tit. 1 s9; Dig. 20 tit. 3 Quae res pignori vel hypothecae datae obligari non possunt), and it might be a thing corporeal or incorporeal; a single thing or a university of things. If a single thing was pledged, the thing with all its increase was the security, as in the case of a piece of land which was increased by alluvio. If a shop (taberna) was pledged, all the goods in it were pledged, and if some of them were sold and others brought in, and the pledger died, the pledgee's security was the shop and all that it contained at the time of the pledger's death (Dig. 20 tit. 1 s34). If all a man's property was pledged, the pledge comprehended also his future property, unless such property was clearly excepted. A man might also pledge any claim or demand that he had against another, whether it was a debt (nomen) or a thing (corpus) (Dig. 13 tit. 7 s18).

...

A man could only pledge a thing when he was the owner and had full power of disposing of it; but a part owner of a thing could pledge his share. A man could pledge another man's property, if the other consented to the pledge at the time or afterwards; but in either case this must properly be considered the pledge of the owner for the debt of another. If a man pledged a thing, which was not his, and afterwards became the owner of it, the pledge was valid (Dig. 13 tit. 7 s20; 20 tit. 2 s5).

...

The amount for which a pledge was security depended on the agreement: it might be for principal and interest, or for either; or it might comprehend principal and interest, and all costs and expenses which the pledgee might be put to on account of the thing pledged (Dig. 13 tit. 17 s8, 25). For instance a creditor would be entitled to his necessary expenses concerning a slave or an estate which had been pignorated.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Pignus.html

So, if perhaps the OP had used the phrase We're all Pignorated Now, the thread probably would have dropped. But, it seems that would have been just as descriptive as the term SLAVE.

We've all been made slaves to an economic system of a few, by a few, and for a few.

[Trillo]

145. A modern variant of "register their biological property"

is a DNA database. Couple that along with a person's lack of ownership of their own DNA, and allowing some corporations to "patent" discoveries related to DNA, no matter who or where it came from, and "ownership" is redefined.

It's all quite chilling. If there's truth to us having a specific corporate identity that is slightly different from our personal identity and that our future wages were borrowed against, then it also appears to have been a long term plan and process. It's really hard to ascribe it to just chaos and the opportunism of the moment.

[DireStrike]

151. This is so exotic it defies understanding

I think in any government this size, that didn't have strong local governments that could rebuff the federal powers in major ways, the people would never have any say in which issues should be discussed; which options are viable for consideration.

The most power someone has in that regard is to stand on a corner with a bullhorn. Or if you have a rather large fortune, you can run for office, to be almost entirely ignored and garner probably 2% of the vote.

I don't know exactly where the theft occurs in the example, or more importantly where such theft could NOT occur in a large government that was simply unresponsive or controlled by industry, rather than maliciously colluding to rob its populace.

That this reads like perfect ammo for those on the right who want to dismantle the social safety net makes me doubt its authenticity.

It isn't necessary to explain our current situation, and frankly doesn't make much sense.

[Trillo]

160. I'm not following you

You wrote, "I don't know exactly where the theft occurs in the example"

What example?

It's certainly possible that this is entirely political polarization, but I don't know. My reference to FDR was not in regards to Social Security, though the quote I excerpted said "social insurance". What I recall reading was that it had something to do with saving the banks when FDR closed them down, the reopened them a few days later, and that it was our future labor that was pledged in collateral to those bankers, before they would agree not to foreclose (on the U.S. Government). A right-wing conspiracy to fell Social Security? Perhaps, but it's a stretch.

In searching for "http://books.google.com/books?id=Fe1AAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA839&lpg=PA839&dq=%22Social+Insurance%22+woodrow+wilson&source=bl&ots=NpzTRSp79e=&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=%22Social%20Insurance%22%20woodrow%20wilson&f=false">social insurance", I found that little gem, and removing Woodrow Wilson from the book search and scrolling quickly through the results I note that some of the discussions revolve around health insurance. I haven't read the book.

So, if House's is a legitimate quote, and I have no idea whether it is or not, it could be talking about health insurance which never came to be at the time.

In what is sort of a tangential issue, Wikipedia has timely additional information regarding Social Insurance:

Typical differences between private insurance programs and social insurance programs include:

* Equity versus Adequacy: Private insurance programs are generally designed with greater emphasis on equity between individual purchasers of coverage, while social insurance programs generally place a greater emphasis on the social adequacy of benefits for all participants.
* Voluntary versus Mandatory Participation: Participation in private insurance programs is often voluntary, and where the purchase of insurance is mandatory, individuals usually have a choice of insurers. Participation in social insurance programs is generally mandatory, and where participation is voluntary, the cost is heavily enough subsidized to ensure essentially universal participation.
* Contractual versus Statutory Rights: The right to benefits in a private insurance program is contractual, based on an insurance contract. The insurer generally does not have a unilateral right to change or terminate coverage before the end of the contract period (except in such cases as non-payment of premiums). Social insurance programs are not generally based on a contract, but rather on a statute, and the right to benefits is thus statutory rather than contractual. The provisions of the program can be changed if the statute is modified.
* Funding: Individually purchased private insurance generally must be fully funded. Full funding is a desirable goal for private pension plans as well, but is often not achieved. Social insurance programs are often not fully funded, and some argue that full funding is not economically desirable.<3>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_insurance

What a difference 90 years can make?

[Trillo]

162. Found the source of the quote, said to be from Woodrow Wilson's papers

It comes from a book titled,

Fruit from a Poisonous Tree‎
by Melvin Stamper Jd - Law - 2008

Here's where the quote can be read, so it appears more legitimate than just a webpage. Use the book's internal search function if you can't find it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6Tc29qnfjtgC&lpg=PT75&dq=%22edward%20mandell%20house%22%20%22social%20insurance%22&pg=PT75#v=onepage&q=Edward%20Mandell%20House&f=false

There are three results in that book for Edward Mandell House, besides the quote above. Another says he was the architect of the 16th Amendment, instrumental in creating the Federal Reserve, and yet another says he was agent provocateur of Rothschild.

[seabeyond]

22. nu uh. nt

[RyboSlybo]

26. Well we are definately not free...

What is your definition of freedom?

It seems everyone has a different definition of what freedom really means...

Land of the Free???

Sure sounds good.

But in my opinion that really does not mean jack shit.

Good post OP...

[BoneDaddy]

27. I am not a slave

nor will I ever be.

[RyboSlybo]

30. But are you Free?

I think not my friend...

[cali]

35. tell me your definition of free. I'm curious.

[AuntPatsy]

39. what do you see yourself not free of...actually curious?

[RyboSlybo]

46. Well maybe my definition is way off...

Freedom to me means just that, Freedom.

No laws, no boundaries, no consequences.

Well that seems pretty extreme I know but that is how I look at it.

So in my opinion too much freedom can be a bad thing.

For instance, We have laws in our nation that will put a murderer in prison which is a good thing, but the murderer is not free to commit the acts of violence that he craves. He is not free.

We have laws in our nation that will put non-violent drug offenders in prison. In my opinion a bad thing and a violation of freedom.

It is difficult for me to explain but that is how I look at freedom. Will we ever truly be free? Well I don't think so. Not so long as we live in a world that is grounded by law.

In some instances a lack of freedom can be a good thing as I stated but in our nation I am afraid we are not free enough. So where is the balance? When does freedom become Anarchy and a world without law?

Am I crazy?

The right wing surely thinks so...

What say ye?

Does my post make absolutely any sense at all?

[seabeyond]

50. i dont see responsiblity and ethical choices as restrictive. i would have that life

whether dictated or not. that is freedom. my choice to be.

one is free to murder. there are consequences in life, in all choices, good/bad. doesnt mean one isnt free, but will experience action/reaction. universal law

[RyboSlybo]

57. That is a good point...

The murderer is free to commit the act but will have to suffer the consequences for those actions...

On the other end though I could be thrown in prison for growing a plant, where is the freedom there? Are the cosequences for those actions justified? The law of the land says so, I have to respectfully disagree.

[seabeyond]

69. you are free to do it. what you are looking for is no consequences to choice

that defies action/reaction and we cannot be. motion, motion. there is the possibility of stillness, highest of vibration, but that is a whole other story.

so, to avoid consequences, dont get caught. be good at hiding it. otherwise????

[RyboSlybo]

127. I guess I just need a better grasp of what "Freedom" really means...

I see what you are saying and it makes sense.

I do want some of the consequences changed for certain actions so to speak.

I do not agree with all of the laws in our nation and I seem to take that as an infringement on my personal freedoms.

But you are saying I am free to smoke mother nature but if I get caught I will have to suffer the consequences. Well in my mind that is not personal freedom but rather restriction.

[seabeyond]

137. i agree with you. there are a lot of changes to be made. i dont like all the laws

nor do i agree with current restrictions from bush time. so i dont go to airports. i refuse to walk into a prison environment.

the thing

we live in a society made up of many

if we had NO laws, there would still be repercussions, just in other manners. maybe not jail time. maybe you murder so others feel free to end your life for the murder

no laws on pot? well, i dont necessarily agree with the pot laws. i like calif laws way back in my day. was like a speeding ticket. against law, but repercussion slight.

but there is an reaction that would be had and felt by society if there were no pot laws (action).

prostitution legal. sounds good. europe is finding equal problems with having made prostitution legal. all problems did not go away. did not fix all things. and created new problems they are now trying to get a handle on that they face

life....

there are a lot of changes to be made.

and that is the freedom we live in. if we get majority on our side, we have the chance to make those changes. without freedom, that chance would not be there. with freedom, the chance, opportunity is there

[RyboSlybo]

142. "I dig the way you do business Jackie!"

That's a line from "The Big Lebowski"

Great Film!

Seriously though that was a great explanation. Thank You.

And as a result I am feeling more free today.

:headbang:

[RyboSlybo]

58. That is a good point...

oops... I'm new here... ;)

[BoneDaddy]

43. By my definition

very free.

[seabeyond]

48. ya huh. nt

[Nederland]

41. What bullshit

You are perfectly free to quite your job and refuse your insurance. No person or government is forcing you to work for a living, you are perfectly free to choose not to. Sure, you'll very quickly have a hard time acquiring food, clothing or shelter without working, but what causes that? The fucking laws of the universe do, that's what. Food, clothing, shelter, and yes, health care do not magically appear out of thin air, they are the result of people working.

If you don't like that, bitch to the God of your choice. You're perfectly free to do that too.

[BoneDaddy]

44. I love people like this

try living in most of the world and tell me you are not free in America.

[Whisp]

49. its well known that american education has suffered

greatly in the last couple decades, and simple curiousity has been squelched and replaced by rote learning - so I'm not surprised that many think they are 'free'.

[BoneDaddy]

51. Free is a state of mind

and I was talking about me, personally.

[Echo In Light]

54. Especially when the society's dominant institutions have a substantial role in promoting the idea

This is how the power of sickness operates; reshape everything and everyone to suit power's priorities and perceptions, that way there are fewer obstacles opposing its continued mad-dash into race suicide, and solidifying a collective un-reality that suits powerful intere$ts instead of human needs.

[omega minimo]

71. I love it

when you talk dirty :evilgrin: Such poetry..........

"...there are fewer obstacles opposing its continued mad-dash into race suicide, and solidifying a collective un-reality that suits powerful intere$ts instead of human needs."

[cali]

61. yeah? Well my education is life long which is why I know that

the idiots professing how enslaved they are, are melodramatic, self-indulgent and/or ignorant. It may irritate you, but yes, I'm relatively free. I'm not owned by corporations. True, I live a a very modest lifestyle in a very rural place, but that was my decision.

[Whisp]

67. I'll give you the same respect you have given others here..

why do you think I give a shit where you live or how free you think you are?

You are obviously not interested in the subject and just want to spread your self important droppings here to remark to yourself how witty you are. and how free you are to be an abrasive jackass.

[cali]

70. you're the one braying on callously and ignorantly

and you are the one doing the nasty name calling, dearie.

[omega minimo]

75. Whisp is simply pointing out, it's not All About You, cali

or your droppings :spray:

[cali]

83. never said anything that a reasonable person could construe

as it being all about me. And you should know about shit, dear. Your posts are pure unadulterated crap.

[omega minimo]

90. Even now, I would have answered your top line to continue an actual discussion

(despite your attempts to hijack the thread above)

but know that clicking your post will reveal the toxic, squirming, fetid center inside. (Enjoy your word salad...........)

Your posts are a waste of time.

[dionysus]

119. cali may be abrasive, but she's not a jackass. this OP is embarrassing hyperbole.

[RetroLounge]

184. ...

:applause:

RL

[BoneDaddy]

153. I tend to agree

so many so called progressive liberals thrive within a victim mentality. I think they are emotionally masochistic.

[seabeyond]

87. well bullshit. again i gotta say. you chose to learn or not. think or not. school system does

not stop you from doing that. my kids are in this system. i DEMAND that they accept the opportunity in learning and they are learning way above and beyond our days.

they chose....

as a parent, i chose to parent my child and that is teaching them to think outside the box, beyond the box. they chose to listen to me and allow their own curiosity and and want of knowledge to guide them in their quest

what does that say about a person that says.... i am victim. i am not all that i am cause of everyone else.

you chose

to be uninformed, close minded or a slave

[Codeine]

89. Except you, of course.

You've risen above it. You're on a free and creative plane unhindered by the metal shackles that drag us all down. We can but gaze in awe on your mighty logical constructs and flawless rhetorical flourishes.

Ahh, the wisdom of the self-appointed intellectual elite -- what would we do without it? Thanks for setting us all straight on our inability to think, Whisp.

[omega minimo]

126. Odd that your simple and true statement

touched such a nerve.


You've also touched an important point about education and those affected by it who take their freedoms for granted and think they're permanent, unthreatened, even NOW when so many have been SUSPENDED.

[Cyrano]

47. " ... they are the result of people working." And when there are no jobs to be had???

[Whisp]

53. what are you talking about?

there are plenty of jobs, its just people are lazy, ya know. plus they can't afford a plane ticket overseas to follow those jobs that the fine people who were 'voted' in sent off in that direction on the behest of their corporate benefactors.

:sarcasm:

[Nederland]

59. Grow your own food, build your own shelter, make your own clothes

...just like free people have for millennia.

Life like that would kinda suck though, huh? Maybe you should be thankful you live in the modern world where you have a few more options beyond subsistence living.

[TheKentuckian]

60. We are talking about us. Comparing our place in the economy to those that control it.

The rest of the world is largely immaterial to the conversation. If you think this is the way it is supposed to be then why be a Democrat other than not being associated with fundies?

This party needs a split! If you don't see a need for a drastically different level of socio-economic justice and accountability for their stewardship (or rather lack there off) from those with the disproportionate part of the nation's wealth then I can't guess why you aren't a Confederate.

[Nederland]

66. You grant them control

You surrender to those in control of the economy because you want the shit they make. This is not a criticism, I have done the exact same thing, and consider it a bargain. I have no interest in subsistence living.

[TheKentuckian]

80. You have put up a false choice here.

We can move beyond the stone age and have social and economic justice.

[Nederland]

95. You can move beyond the stone age

...but you can't repeal the laws of the universe. The universe says life requires work. For people to assert otherwise is to say that other people have an obligation to work for them, and THAT is neither freedom nor justice.

[TheKentuckian]

131. What in God's name indicates that I advocate not working?

That's lackluster comprehension at the best and I think a deliberate misdirection. Or maybe I'm missing you. I'm purely discussing economic justice, that the people doing the work deserve a stake rather than the shaft. That we need real rules of the road rather than the law of the jungle.

I didn't see you doing my coursework, paying my loans, or working my 60+ hours. No do I predict that you will be doing my next set of course work, paying my next loans, or putting in my shifts.

Go buy a clue.

[Nederland]

146. I'm sure you do work

I'm also sure that you benefit from a host of government services that you do not remotely pay full price for. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy that the top 5% pay 60% of the incomes taxes, and I'm very much in favor of our progressive tax structure. I just have a problem with people who get a whole lot of stuff virtually for free and yet still somehow bitch about how unfair things are.

[omega minimo]

56. 'You're free" "bitch to the God of your choice" on your cardboard sign, at your freeway offramp

[treestar]

79. You're not accounting for unemployment

Nor for the rich by inheritance, who can get all that and more without working.

[Nederland]

98. Sure I am, read post #61

Nobody has an obligation to give you money in exchange for work. People should be free to give their money to whomever they want to, in exchange for what they want.

[SOS]

174. God does not set the minimum wage

Nor does God charge 28% interest, cheat you on your mortgage, charge you $1,000 a month for health insurance, charge you $35 debit fees,
charge you a higher tax percentage than a hedge fund billionaire, ship your job to China,
foreclose your home, drive you into bankruptcy by medical bills, make college unaffordable, housing unaffordable,
redline poor neighborhoods, pay off Senators, run Ponzi schemes, reduce capital gains tax to 15%, destroy small business, make child care unaffordable,
make health care unavailable to 50 million people, cheat hurricane victims, take trillions of tax money in corrupt bail outs, charge $100 for some lousy prescription drug,
rip off your pension, cheat you on your 401 K with hidden fees, corrupt the USDA to sell you poisoned food,
corrupt the FDA to kill you with Vioxx or create the worst income inequality in American history.

Wall Street did all that to us.
I'd rather bitch at those bastards.

[Nederland]

183. Response

The crux of your argument is that things are too expensive. You don't like the fact that there are all these things that you want, but people won't sell them to you for the price you want them to. I'm sorry, but that situation is a natural outcome of the fact that everyone gets to be free, not just you. The people that build houses are free to ask whatever they want for the results of their labor, and the people that buy houses are free to tell them they are asking too much. To suggest that someone be forced to sell something to you at a price that you set is an infringement on their freedom.

[SOS]

186. Actually

The crux of my argument is that large corporations, in full cooperation with the Federal government, are destroying the average American worker and small businessman.
Since 1981 this country has devolved into state monopoly capitalism, which is a brutal system for those without capital.

[Nederland]

187. Gee

If those large corporations are so evil, I wonder why anyone would buy their products or work for them. Perhaps I need to drive down to my local Walmart for some observation, because clearly there must be soldiers with a guns placed to the head of every shopper, forcing them to buy stuff.

[omega minimo]

42. Oh, it comes up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6658762

[Orwellian_Ghost]

55. K&R

[Throd]

63. Go visit an old plantation in Dixie

We're all slaves! It's the Holocaust! Hitler behind that rock! Stalin behind that tree!

[cali]

65. best comment in the thread. +1 and all that.

[Brickbat]

91. Heh. Right on.

[Codeine]

92. "Swing loooooow, sweeet chaaaa-aariot,

coming for to carry me hooooome!"

:rofl: Middle-class douchebags on the internet in their comfortable homes bitching about being slaves. Fuck me.

[tammywammy]

97. No shit

Well, I guess I should be glad my boss left his whip at home today. :eyes:

[cali]

100. you actually made me laugh with that comment.

but don't forget, we're just too brainwashed by our masters to understand that we're really slaves.

[closeupready]

123. No, you just left your tinfoil at home.

:D

[redqueen]

177. !

:spray:

[The2ndWheel]

81. Freaks in a freak show

Good, bad, or indifferent. Just part of the machine.

[blindpig]

82. Two kinds of slave:

allow Malcolm X to explain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEruHQ2N9WM

Which explains the discord on this thread, some slaves just love Massa.

k&r

[bvar22]

84. *delete*

[ShortnFiery]

94. American Citizens, bow before your Masters:

[bvar22]

96. "I owe my soul to the Company Store."

K&R
You make some good points, though there are some here who are too frightened to see it for what it is. It is scary to let go of comforting illusions like "Land of the Free", and "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps", but the TRUTH is, the GAME is RIGGED.

The BAD news is, It is getting worse.
The most recent outrage is that our government (Democrats + Republicans) took taxpayer money from people who couldn't pay their mortgages, and used it to "bailout" the BANKS that held the mortgages.

There was a time (50's - 70's) when it was possible to attend a State University and graduate debt free if you were willing to work part time.

There was a time when a non-college educated parent could find and keep a job that allowed him to:
*raise a family in relative comfort

*Buy and pay off a modest home in the subs.

*Provide decent health Care for his family

*Take a REAL vacation every year

*Send his kids to college

*Save enough to retire in comfort and dignity

THAT USA is GONE.

[closeupready]

107. No we aren't. I'm not.

I recall one place where I worked pre-9/11 sent around a memo telling us that they were going to adopt a certain intrusive procedure in order to heighten security, for no particular reason and that this would be "mandatory". I told them "no". I suspect others did, as well, since they later declined to proceed. I got flack for that, but I wasn't raised to be a serf and just surrender all rights to privacy and dignity because someone in authority demanded it.

[closeupready]

110. And also, I think equating the current American reality with slavery diminishes real slavery.

Slavery's trump card is the threat or use of physical violence to make others act in the way you wish.

Having a job you don't like or which doesn't afford a real middle class life is not slavery.

[Codeine]

111. Yes it totally is slavery.

Also anything I disagree with politically is fascism, any politician I dislike is a Nazi, and any poster with whom I do not see eye-to-eye is a paid shill of Big Pharma/The DLC/The Israel Lobby/Trotskyites.

[omega minimo]

112. Thank you. Now we see

where you're coming from. :patriot:

[cali]

116. perhaps you should consider speaking for yourself

and not dragging others into it. Are you so insecure that you need to back yourself up with an imaginary army?

[omega minimo]

120. perhaps you should consider

looking in the mirror.



We have seen the mantra Codeine invoked before, from others who behave the same way, maybe their own "imaginary army" on DU.

[Codeine]

124. I have an army? A mantra?!

COOOOL!

[MilesColtrane]

169. Maybe it's the Royal WE?

Or, maybe she's got a mouse in her pocket.

[closeupready]

113. Um, okay.

:rofl: :hi:

[dionysus]

117. you forgot the skull and bones & bildebergers. rookie.

:evilgrin:

[Codeine]

118. Dammit! I suck at this! nt

[dionysus]

115. holy hyperbole batman!!

:rofl:

[Orwellian_Ghost]

132. Noam Chomsky: Wage Slavery = Chattle Slavery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oztdRo9GLLk

Subordination to masters.

[Libertas1776]

136. I am not a slave

and I live in a free country.

And if I don't want to pay my taxes, why, I am free to spend a weekend with the pain monster. Now that's freedom!


"See you April 15th folks!"

[onenote]

139. since the OP says we are all slaves "now" -- a question: when weren't we slaves

I think the OP's claim that we're "slaves" is nonsense.

But obviously a number of folks agree with the OP. So I'm curious, when would you say we (meaning Americans) weren't slaves and what made us freer then than today?

[Trillo]

143. Sorry Cyrano

I cannot convince you, or prove to you, that we are not all, or most of us anyway, pignorated.

[Lagomorph]

144. Show me the receipt...

Who bought you?

Who owns you?

How many actual slaves you you talk to on the internet?

[Sinti]

147. Slaves is the wrong word.

We're not quite serfs, not really slaves, it's more like we're becoming/have become obsolete.

Every human being, by virtue of being born, has the Entitlement to food in their belly and a roof over their head. Even cavemen would agree. Granted, no one is obliged to go out there and get it for you, you have to get it for yourself.

The problem is that there are mediators between what you need, or want, and your ability to get it. It's not just "having to work." There are more people than jobs, so some must suffer for want of usefulness. These mediators for the most part are multi-national corporations. Corporations are not people, they are not the people who work for them, they are an entity completely devoid of conscience and morals (though they employees, executives and even owners may be wonderful people). For a good profitable corporation there is only one virtue and that is to make perpetually increasing profit in coin. They have no other function.

At this point in history these corporations have little need for our labor. We're inefficient and expensive in their eyes, unless we're highly specialized. Hence, if you send everyone to college a college degree will be worthless. A large number of them obviously have also decided that they no longer want to sell products into our market in the volumes they once did. If they had such plans they wouldn't be draining the remaining wealth out of our economy. Maybe we're tapped out.

We actually have quite a bit in common with the wild animals that are being driven out of their habitats by human development. They own the resources now, and there's little room left for us to live.

The question is, will they continue to take and keep our natural resources, or will they take their ball and go play elsewhere.

There is really a great opportunity here to address some long-festering issues in this country. Do we pull together and bring some much needed light into the darkness, do we grovel at the table and fight like rabid dogs over any scraps we might get, or do we allow ourselves to be ground into the dirt under the boot heel of corporate progress. We need to think in terms of profits to humans, rather than profit in coin. I think we also need to recognize that we all have a right to survival, and the benefit of our own labor - we have the right to work and make a living. We need to work together to get it done, and that's the challenge. They work together and look what it got them :P

[sendero]

148. Finally ..

... an intelligent post on this thread.

[Cyrano]

152. Thank you, Sinti. Your response is so incredibly intelligent that further

discussion only diminishes the wisdom of your post. (Not that that will put an end to this never-ending thread which I'm regretting that I began.)

Nonetheless, thank you.

[olegramps]

163. I am in much agreement with what you have said.

Indeed, corporations are without a conscience. It is the duty of the legislature to provide rules that prevent corporations from not destroying the people who are affected by their existence. In essence it is their duty to be the corporations "moral conscience".

Isn't this the problem that we face today? Corporations have been given free rein to put profits before decent treatment of their employees and customers alike. It has to do with a sense of justice. Is it justice that a person who runs a health care insurance company should make nearly $500,000 dollars a day while denying essential services to those his company is insuring?

Yes, the rich pay the largest percentage of taxes, but in reality it is only a small portion of their total income. Progressive taxes are the only way to level the playing field. It is not likely that an equitable situation will ever exists when corporations are making the rules. We have realized this fact for some time and have made various attempts to mitigate the situation. Perhaps the most effective would be term limits and campaign finance laws. Isn't it the professional politicians that have created this disaster in which people feel hopeless? Their very survival is threatened. No jobs, home foreclosed, no health insurance, desperate. Isn't the concern for the least of us suppose to be the difference between Democrats and Republicans? Isn't it the smug Republicans who have either inherited their wealth or by good fortune to have stuck it rich that don't give a damn about the lazy good for nothings who can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I can't help by think of St. Paul when he said there but for the grace of God go you and I.

I can't help from also thinking of Plato's Republic in which the most important aspect of developing an ideal society is the proper appllcation of justice for all its citzens. Is it just that someone can make millions while watching their fellow citizen barely able to survive?

[The2ndWheel]

173. Careful, you're meddling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BVqIjKyJh0

Whoever is watching might be able to turn a buck or two off of you as well.

[gleaner]

150. I wish I could, but I can't ....

You are right. I did read the fine print in my mortgage. Then my bank was taken over by another bank. They can't change what is already in the contract but because of Bush economic policies the value of my house has fallen down so much that I am in effect renting from the bank. I had thought I had enough equity to pay off what was left after my husband was hospitalized after a catastrophic illness. Instead I found out that we are worth less than zero when it comes to home equity.

I do feel sold out too. I wanted a single payer system not the pap they are trying to feed me now. I wrote letters, I called, I took polls and while my congressman agrees with me there is not much he can do all by himself. Obama let me down big time. I was stupid. I actually thought I could trust him. Well, we live and learn I guess. Too bad we always have to learn the same thing.

[Old Hob]

154. Welcome to the New World Plantation

You are pwned stupid American and all your bases are belong to us now! hahaha

[Orsino]

161. Not slaves. Debtors. Or serfs.

These are better words for those of use the corporations would like to own, but don't. For now, they're content to siphon off ever-greater shares of our wealth.

[blindpig]

164. The only question that remains:

Which side are you on?

How one answers this question seems to be determined largely upon whether one labors for massa in the house or in the field.

[cali]

178. hackneyed canned content free rhetoric

seems to be your thing. So where do you labor, pumpkin, the house or the field? And if you don't labor, what do you live on?

[blindpig]

180. In the field, sugar,

just like the vast majority.

So, Malcolm X and a great old union song are "hackneyed canned content free rhetoric"? Speaks volumes. Pretty obvious where you're coming from, the house.

[cali]

181. No, Malcolm X was right on many things. You playing Malcolm X?

It's a pitiful little joke.

[blindpig]

182. In that case

I refer you to the link in post #82.

To not see the relevance is to be willfully blind.

[bridgit]

172. Gotta Serve Somebody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqxW6E24Jh8

[cynatnite]

188. Complete and utter hyperbole considering that there are slaves on this planet...

and the marjority of us are in no position to have an understanding of what that truly means.

This is why I get sick and tired of this crap. It's no different when the repukes try to call us Nazis or that they're being lynched. What bullshit.

[barb162]

189. We're not slaves...we just keep voting in governments that are not responsive

I would question your comment sabout the 75% wanting the public option if there were an actual cost attached. People will say things like I want more national parks and if you then say, your personal taxes will go up 2000/yr see how many say they want more national parks.

If people don't read the fine print, is that because they're slaves or they're negligent about their own personal affairs?

As far as responsive politicians, I thought one of the latest polls on the Afghan war says 57% of Americans don't want to be there but that we will probably be raising the number of troops there very soon. I notice most Americans in poll after poll after poll don't want illegal immigrants here and they're still here and there is talk in Congress and by Obama about amnesty.

The two party system hasn't been working well at all the last several years.