I've noticed an increasing amount of socialistic sentiment in GD lately.

[Barack_America]

Since the health care debate started ramping up.

I've noticed this in my own feelings and statements too.

I'm not interested in judging whether this is good or bad, I just find it interesting.

Has anyone else noticed this, either on DU or elsewhere?

If so, what do you make of it?


I've been thinking about this for a while, but this thread prompted me to throw this out there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6694962

[Thickasabrick]

1. I think it's "Anti-Oligarchy" more than socialism. Most people just

want a level playing field without the oligarchy setting the rules and stacking the odds in their favor.

[Barack_America]

2. Could be, could be.

In any case, I'm seeing awareness and anger towards the way our system runs at a level I have not seen before.

[realisticphish]

3. i think this is it

[AllentownJake]

6. It is something whether we like it or not we have in common with the conservatives

We just have different targets for our ire. The conservatives blame government for the current state, we blame business. Since we have a strange marriage of both parties going on both are responsible.

[tex-wyo-dem]

61. I think Allentownjake nailed it...

Like it or not, and no matter how manipulated and misguided we think there "movement" is, the tebaggers are a populist movement. The problem is, they blame government, period, and fail to comprehend that it's not government, per se, but government corrupted by corporate influence. In short, and unfortunately, they are being played to use their government as a scapegoat...exactly as the oligarchy wants it.

[anonymous171]

62. Exactly.

If/When things get bad enough I think we will be forced into an alliance with them. Despite our wide differences, we are all on the same side (the have-nots.)

[tex-wyo-dem]

63. Precisely...

It's been my belief for a while that a truly populist movement with the size and force to change things in our favor will require both sides to work together. The problem will be to get the other side to stop drinking the corporate propoganda kool-aid long enough to see the light.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

72. I blame government for not regulating and controlling Cannibal Corporatism

I've never had any delusions about the ability of business to "self-regulate" that the con artists have successfully put over on the public while they conduct their "smash and grab" operations.

What is becoming increasingly clear to EVERYONE of all political persuasions is that our system is one of legalized bribery and corruption and that we are doomed for a mighty economic fall ( and every other way fall) since our legislators are incapable of enacting anything except laws that enrich themselves and their corporate overlords.

[Oregone]

4. Its just the bandwagon of the day I think

Itll be mostly gone "tomorrow". Such is life.

[dysfunctional press]

5. some socialism is necessary as a country grows in population...

maybe 'necessary' is the wrong word- but it just makes sense to socialize the infrastructure, including necessary utilities and services, of which healthcare is one.

as it is- we've been practicing some socialism for the elites for quite awhile- it's way past time to do more of it for the masses.

[anonymous171]

7. People are being pushed to the left by the Capitalists.

It's as simple as that.

[Walk away]

15. I agree. The level of greed in this country is outrageous and...

the stupidity of the folks that vote for and are used by the greedy and powerful is incredible.

[Barack_America]

25. People seem to have an increasing awareness of being screwed.

Badly screwed.

Ironically, the tea baggers are helping to point this out, particularly with regards to the bailout. The corporate interests have done a good job at ginning up their faux "populist" anger, but can provide them with no "populist" solutions, for obvious reasons. The problem with creating anger is it's hard to control.

[AllentownJake]

35. The key is to turn the Tea Baggers on the Federal Reserve

Both people on the left and right hate that institution and it is largely responsible for the economic conditions we face today.

[Alexander]

55. Holy hell, someone gets it!

:applause:

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Fascists.. use the right language...

even Adam Smith is turning in his gave, but Mussolini is applauding... I WON!

[anonymous171]

43. By "capitalists" I do not mean people who like Capitalism

I am talking about the owners of Capital. You can believe in Capitalism all you want, but that does not make you a Capitalist.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. I know but it is time we use the right language

by the way... I like the Capitalism of Adam Smith... no monopolies, small entrepreneurs, no dominance by Big Finance... and the right for people to make a living...

Not like what we have today.

Of course mix this well with some of Marx's principles, and you get a social democracy that works for everybody...

[eomer]

67. If you believe in capitalism it makes you a capitalist.

1 : a person who has capital especially invested in business; broadly : a person of wealth : plutocrat
2 : a person who favors capitalism

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalist

I don't know what a Capitalist is; maybe it is a person who believes in Capitalizing words that aren't supposed to be Capitalized?

[Cleita]

8. Ya think?

I remember back in the old days when DU was predominantly socialist. I remember a large segment of Minnesota DUers who love Paul Wellstone when he was alive and the genuine sorrow that everyone felt when he died. Most of us then supported what he stood for and he was for all intents and purposes a social democrat.

[Desertrose]

17. Yeah, I remember those days too, Cleita.....

Have missed them...maybe its a natural swinging back to the "left" from where we've been the past 8 years...ok, much longer really.

:hi:

[Cleita]

24. Hi there.

:hi:

I miss you too that you don't come around as often anymore.

[Kahuna]

37. Not just socialist. There was a communist contingent too. nt

[bvar22]

47. A "Communist" contingent at DU?

I don't recall anyone advocating the confiscation of private property and organizing the citizens into collectives.

Can you post a link?

[Gabi Hayes]

50. maybe he means hardcore christians. jesus was the biggest commie ever!

[Swamp Rat]

51. Yep

;)

[charlie]

54. I don't know about a contingent

But, remember Martin Schreader, screenname mschreader? Nice guy, very smart, very well informed. And a communist.

[Kahuna]

75. My challenger seems to be implying that he's seen EVERY post

on DU, and is thusly calling me out. AND, that I should look through a million posts to prove my point. Boy, if I didn't think I would get banned from DU, I had a few choice words....:grr:

[eomer]

68. There are people here who are supporters of Castro and Che Guevara.

I believe that they do advocate the confiscation of private property and organizing the citizens into collectives. They know who each other are and they interact with each other and support each other in threads, so I think they can be called a contingent.

I'm not going to point to individual posts or posters. If you use the search feature and search for "Castro" you can see that it is true.

[Kahuna]

70. There were those who were sympathetic to communism..

Can you post a link saying they were not? Of course you can't. So don't ask me to do it either.

[bvar22]

48. I still support what Wellstone stood for.

About 2004, DU was invaded by "Centrist" chat roomers and Party Cheerleaders.
ISSUES mean nothing to them.
Never been the same.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Swamp Rat]

52. Me too. Yes, yes, and yes.

And the DLCers who got canned have returned as new incarnations of the same thing. They don't realize it is easy to identify them by their writing styles, topics, and views.

[Taverner]

9. Socialism is not a bad idea

Some of the folks here are so Sociophobic that they start screaming about "Bolshiveks under our beds!" the minute someone says something nice about Socialism

[Barack_America]

10. Never said it was.

I just wanted to discuss a change in tone that I had observed.

:hi:

[Taverner]

11. Oh I'm not accusing you

But you'll see them show up soon - folks who think anything socialist must mean Soviet Style Marxist-Leninism

[Barack_America]

12. This thread was just unrec'd.

So I suspect they're already here.

;)

[bobbolink]

30. Thanks for mentioning that... I'll rec it for you..."I regret that I have but one rec...."

:hi:

[Joe Chi Minh]

20. Victims of the most perverse, old-style, American right-wing, quasi-McCarthyite

propaganda, unknown, I believe in the rest of the world, certainly after the ravages of WWII.

What do you think the Republicans would make of the author of the following quotes: (It's not a rhetorical question)

First, while he celebrated truly competitive capitalism, he didn't trust capitalists very much. Consider these quotes:
· "All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."

· "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."

Second, he believed that workers deserve a living wage:

· "It is but equity ... that they who feed, clothe and lodge the whole body of the people, should have such a share of the produce of their own labor as to be themselves tolerable well fed, clothed and lodged."

Third - and here's a real shocker - he believed that the wealthy should pay more in taxes:
"The subjects of every state ought to contribute toward the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state."

Fourth, he believed in the necessity of public investments in infrastructure and public goods. He spoke of the duty of government to support "public institutions and those public works, which, though they may be in the highest degree advantageous to a great society, are, however, of such a nature that the profit could never repay the expense to any individual or small number of individuals, and which it therefore cannot be expected that any individual or small number of individuals should erect or maintain."



It was the moral philosopher, Adam Smith....

I think there can be only one answer: "Not even a Socialist. A double-dyed Commie subversive! Bent on destroying the historic character of rugged individualism of this great nation! That's what! Now, watch you don't trip over those damned indigents lounging around on our side-walks, disfiguring our beautiful cities"

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/23/4046

[Odin2005]

13. People are getting sick of corporatist BS.

[roody]

14. We feel like we can come out of the closet.

[Posteritatis]

16. I've been noticing it since shortly before the election, myself. (nt)

[Pharaoh]

18. Socialism = Good

The media corporate capitalists have just made it a "bad" word like they did to liberal. It is actually a just and fair system which Jesus would have preferred. The capitalists are just greedy and don't want to share.

[Hydra]

19. I've always been a socialist

But I DO think that people seeing naked capitialism in action is making them question why they supported such an ugly system in the first place.

Do I dare hope this is the case?

[Barack_America]

21. Well, my observations have been the same as yours...

so, maybe?

The bailout combined with health care "reform" may just be more reality than people can ignore.

[Ruby the Liberal]

22. Watching Democrats once solidly behind a PO

bow to the interests of the insurance companies + watching Capitalism last week convinced me to join DSA.org

[Brother Buzz]

23. You are just witnessing the backlash to the right attempting to make socialism a pejorative word

[smoogatz]

26. Americans have been pro-socialist since the Great Depression,

although the right would have us think otherwise. Social security and Medicare are very popular and very socialist in their conception and execution. The GI Bill was socialist, the interstate highway system is socialist, the FDIC is socialist, anti-trust law is socialist, the National Parks are socialist, and so on. Large majorities of Americans have favored universal healthcare since the 1940s, but it's been blocked at every turn by monied interests hiding behind the veil of cold war red-baiting. Basically, every period of massive economic disruption in our history has been caused by unregulated or poorly regulated capitalism, and every such period has been followed by a period of re-regulation and increased public support for socialism-based solutions. I think this generation of Americans are starting to finally understand the extent to which they're being ripped off and jerked around by the banks, the insurance companies and the energy companies in particular, and they're obviously not very happy about it.

[Barack_America]

27. Interesting you should mention the National Parks.

Burns's documentary is very critical of corporate interests trying to "destroy" the parks, as he would put it.

The documentary is showing at an interesting time. There are many parallels between the creation of the Parks Service and our current health care debate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. There is the feeling of revolution in the air

The US has them regularly... most don't get too much press, except by Historians... since they are peaceful.

My true hope is that this one will only be noted by Historians... and social scientists... but I have said it before... I ain't holding my breath on that. I do expect violence, even civil war...

But hell, that is the nature of revolutions...

[snot]

29. Conservatives have deliberately sought to confuse "democracy" & "capitalism."

They are not the same, and don't necessarily go together.

[snot]

33. (I.M.H.O. . . .

services like utilities, healthcare, the money supply, etc., and goods like natural resources, are by nature best-suited to be socialized, while other kinds of activities, like the invention and sale of consumer goods, are best-suited to a capitalistic model.

There's no reason we can't analyze the factors that make one system better than the other -- or not -- for certain kinds of activities or things.)

[Oak2004]

66. Actually, to be precise, it was corporations

led by General Motors, which organized a campaign to conflate the terms "democracy" and "capitalism".

I can't remember exactly where I learned of that little tidbit, otherwise I'd point you (and others) at my source.

[patrice]

31. Demanding Real Value in exchange for Real Value is not "socialistic", though that word is widely

misunderstood by those who think they oppose HC/I reform, so it has limited relevance to my statement that the Real Value of Labor should be exchanged for other Real Values, such as Comprehensive HC, appropriate and complete Education, rational National Security ... and money is NOT a Real Value, but rather an artificial, privately defined, arbitrary value.

Unfortunately, it appears that most of the opposition to what some people are calling "socialism" is opposition based upon the assumption that money is Real Value and as long as this error dominates, I have to say that I agree, I too do not want a system, government, economic, social or otherwise, defining my "worth".

[bobbolink]

32. A lot of people who vote D have, since FDR, been socialist. What you're seeing is the recent,

relatively speaking, split between the liberal wing and the conservative wing of the party.

And, yes, when it started, DU was more left. That shouldn't be surprising, given the name "Underground", should it? I mean, what is conceivably "underground" about vowing undying support for the Dems in office?

What is really sad is the vitriol that has been expressed towards "leftists"---exactly the SAME NAME-CALLING we receive from the RW!

I think you can, sadly, expect that split to get more intense, and given the rightward bend on DU, there will be increasing calls to expell us.

I hope when that happens, you will remember the drive for votes in November every other year, and deeply ponder whether calling for the ouster of the left wing is really that wise.

[evenso]

34. Right wing has succeeded in making socialism a bad word.

And most Americans won't touch it. But people are better educating themselves about things.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

38. However much it has been discussed is not enough.

After what the big banks, the corporatists, the militaristic leaders of our government, and the criminals have done to the American people in the last few years. Anybody that cannot see that is walking around blind.

[SDuderstadt]

40. I'd like to make a pitch for...

democratic capitalism:

http://www.democratic-capitalism.com/

http://www.kellysite.net/

[Quantess]

41. Maybe it's time to throw in a reminder that Obama is NOT a socialist.

I would like him more, if he was.

[Echo In Light]

42. ...or, if those he answers to were

[patrice]

44. Personally, I have difficulty respecting anyone who runs from any word.

[Quantess]

46. Was that a reply to me?

[patrice]

53. Just a comment on how elected persons, in general, run away from certain words, rather

than proactively confronting the semantics in order to use them to benefit the discourse.

[Vidar]

49. The more the better.

[mike_c]

56. happy to be socialist....

No bones about it. I'm a democratic socialist, and have been most of my adult life.

[Fire1]

73. Ditto. n/t

[troubledamerican]

57. Interstate Freeway System. Socialist. We already have socialism.

The U.S. would collapse without it.

[Unvanguard]

58. It's always been around. We are a liberal enough community that there's a good deal of it.

Further, the misconception that welfare states and a large public sector amount to socialism, while it has only toxic effects in mainstream politics, has the consequence here of making socialism seem moderate and appealing to people who would be scared away by, say, the forthright advocacy of wholesale social ownership of the means of production.

[LatteLibertine]

59. Some are tired

of people crowing about "free markets" and "capitalism" making the United States great when our country is in the grip of crony capitalism and corporatism. There needs to be balance and strong regulation. 70% of our wealth concentrated into 10% of our populations hands is not a result of true capitalism.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

The financial market bailout clearly demonstrated to me what we are dealing with.

[eridani]

60. Why not just call it "defense of public goods?"

Technically, socialism means that all goods should be treated as public goods, and few on the left actually believe that anymore.

[rucky]

64. Maybe Mr. Moore's planted a bug in our collective ears?

God bless 'im.

[earth mom]

65. It's about time people started waking up and seeing that the powers that be are screwing us all over

:grr:

[eomer]

69. I've noticed an increasing amount of socialistic sentiment in myself lately.

In me it seems to coincide with the availability of alternative news sources -- alternative to the corporate propaganda on the corporate "news" channels and stations. So by lately I mean in the last decade or so when I personally started looking to these alternative sources.

I think this phenomenon I see in myself is occurring enough in others around me that it has become a noticeable movement.

This is why net neutrality is so important. If corporatists are able to close off the alternatives to their propaganda then we will go back to a time when fewer people understand where their interests lie and are activist in support of those interests.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. People have always had the sentiment

but the public consciousness requires a critical mass of credible discussion.

When people aren't personally starving or losing their homes or dying for lack of health insurance, it's easier to pretend that you're part of the big club.

[robinlynne]

74. Michael Moore made an interesting comment in his fim: he read from the

constitution and said, that sounds like socialism, but no, it is a description of democracy.