Sorry, but Michael Moore's argument just doesn't make sense.

[Towlie]

Michael Moore argues that turning out in droves to the theaters to see his movie will "put all the bosses on notice that the vast Obama-voting majority has awoken from its silence and are out in full force." He tells us that buying lots of theater tickets will act as an effective protest against corporate America and "send shivers down their corporate spines, telling them loud and clear that the American people are mad as hell and are not into taking it any more."

The problem with that argument is that the motion picture industry is corporate America. We have plenty of complaints about how they do business, just as we have about other major industries, but every theater ticket we buy as a protest of their practices puts more money in their pockets. What kind of protest is that?

Perhaps the real protest that "sends shivers down their corporate spines" will come later, when the movie is ripped and shared on torrent sites like Pirate Bay and Isohunt. When they see huge swarms of BitTorrent users downloading the movie, then maybe they'll get the message. I'm sure Michael Moore won't mind that one bit.

Of course I'm not into doing that sort of thing myself, but it'll be interesting to watch.

[tekisui]

1. Information is power.

That is the argument. It seems logical to me.

[TxRider]

104. "vast Obama-voting majority" is not reality

40% didn't even vote, Obama won with 52% of the 60% that did vote.

Barely a majority at all, much less a "vast" majority...

[EFerrari]

2. Hasn't the motion picture industry tried to freeze Mike out for years?

On that level, his argument makes perfect sense.

[notesdev]

3. In the spirit of its creation

if I watch it at all, it will be a pirated version :)

[eShirl]

4. How would that be different from swarms of bittorrent users downloading every other movie?

Don't kid yourself - if it makes lots of MONEY, it will get their attention.

[LTR]

5. Well, it's got to get distributed somehow

And in the past, he has often used independent distributors such as Lions Gate.

Sure, he could just BitTorrent the thing, but would anyone go to that trouble to watch it?

Not a good argument.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. I read that he has now raised enough money to distribute all of his future movies himself

[LTR]

20. Having the money vs. having the ability are two different things

Does he have the infrastructure to put his movies in theaters by himself?

Does he have the marketing machine to do it?

Just having the money to do it doesn't make it all that simple to do. Lots of behind-the-scenes games. Let's be real - self-distributed films are a rather daunting task.

[Bjorn Against]

6. This is always a dilemma for progressive media...

If you want to get your message out you need to find a way to distribute that message. While there are independent outlets they do not have the resources to reach millions of people. If you want to reach millions of people it is very difficult to do unless you have a big corporation promoting your film, even the "independent" studios like Miramax are owned by Disney or some other huge conglomerate. The dilemma is do you work with your enemies in the corporate media to get your message out, or do you stick with the truly independent distributors and only reach a few thousand people instead of the millions you could with a major studio behind it?

I wish we didn't have to go through the big studios, but the reality is that no one would have even heard of Moore's movies if he had not decided to have them distributed by people who were not on his side.

I do see your point, but I see Moore's as well and I don't fault him for taken the path he has chosen in distributing his films.

[omega minimo]

66. Reconsider your assumptions

"...the reality is that no one would have even heard of Moore's movies if he had not decided to have them distributed by people who were not on his side."

You may be too young to remember "mimeograph" but all of the old school communication devices and networks were effective, inluding xeroxed zines. Your point is well taken about scale but not in terms of effectiveness, when alternatives are necessary. Look at MoveOn House Parties. Why not do that with films like this?

The technology now allows for much more imagination than feeling bound to the big boys, eh?

[Bjorn Against]

70. Yes it does, but it also limits the audience

Believe me I am a huge supporter of independent media and have myself taken advantage of it, independent sources are excellent for reaching people who are already on your side. We need to keep our own side motivated, but we also need to reach out to people who have not been exposed to our message and independent media quite simply does not have the resources to reach those people. I wish it did, believe me I really wish it did but having been involved in a great deal of activism myself I have spoken with many independent journalists and they all express frustration at the difficulty in getting their material out to a wider audience. MoveOn House Parties have been quite effective at getting groups of activists together, but they are not effective at reaching the general population. I love independent media and I look forward to seeing independent media use new technology to grow, but we also need people like Moore who are able to get their work out to the larger audiences that he would never be able to reach if he did not have his films distributed by the big conglomerates. I say if the corporations are going to give Moore the rope to hang them with then we should not begrudge him for using it.

[omega minimo]

74. You are making your point to the previous poster

and missing the point that I raise about possibilities.

Oh well :hi:

[Bjorn Against]

79. No I understand your point

I understand that we need to use technology to get our word out without corporate help, I am just saying that it is not as easy to do that as we would like it to be. MoveOn house parties quite simply do not reach people outside of those who are already involved.

[omega minimo]

81. Yet you repeat your negativism and pretend MoveOn is all I suggest, ending discussion

of possibilities. :hi:


You don't have to try so hard to be "right." You usually are.

Having to hammer your point again to win something leads nowhere................


No one said it was "easy." Let's stay stuck here in our little digital sparring matches.:eyes:

[Bjorn Against]

96. No I am not ending discussion of possibilities

Believe me I like your suggestions, and I am not trying to spar with you. I think it is important to get our message out however we can, I think MoveOn style house parties are important, I think blogs are important, and I also think getting movies into theaters is important. Right now it is next to impossible to get movies in theaters without a big distributor, but any other methods to get our message out I am all for. I am just saying we should support what Moore is doing, I am not suggesting we should not use other methods as well. I didn't mean my earlier message to come off as negativism, so please don't take it that way. Believe me I am a huge supporter of independent media and if we can find an effective way to bypass the big conglomerates completely and still reach just as many people then I am all for it, but if the conglomerates will hand us the rope to hang them with then I think we need to use it.

[omega minimo]

101. Well put. Thank you.

:hi:

[DatManFromNawlins]

77. He could have hooked up with Netflix and bypassed the theater

Such movies are better viewed at home when you can rewind and rewatch parts anyway.

[Bjorn Against]

80. It will be on Netflix when it is released on DVD, but it needed to be in theaters first

Straight to DVD movies are almost never as successful as those that appear in the theater first, not nearly as many people would see it if he went straight to Netflix.

[Spoonman]

90. WAKE UP!

Moore's film was funded by Goldman Sachs!
All you have to do is read the credits to get the facts!

presented by "Paramount Vantage" in association with the Weinstein Company.
Bob and Harvey Weinstein are listed as executive producers.

Paramount Vantage, is controlled by Viacom.
The Weinstein Company announced it was funded with a $490 million private by Goldman Sachs

People just want to believe anything these days.

Moore is a capitalist!
He makes his money off the mislead and uninformed "market"!

[Bjorn Against]

97. No Moore uses a capitalist corporation to distribute his films...

That does not mean he is a capitalist. If there was a major film distributor that was not entrenched in corporate America then I am sure he would use it, but there is no major film distributor that is not firmly entrenched in the capitalist system. Do you think every American who works for a company that is partially owned by Goldman Sachs or one of the other big banks holds the same values as those banks?

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. His movie doing well will do one thing, basically

It'll embolden TV and movie writers to put more lefty jokes and social commentary in animated shows and romantic comedies.

And that's it.

[dysfunctional press]

71. it'll do much more than that-

it will definitely help his own bottom line, for one thing.

after all- it doesn't seem like he's going to be making any more movies after this one.

[timeforpeace]

91. Moore is Pavlov. We're the dog. The movie is his bell.

[dysfunctional press]

100. i'm not hearing it this time.

nor seeing it.

at least not until it comes out on dvd and i can burn a copy.

[Subdivisions]

8. Have you seen the movie yet? n/t

[fascisthunter]

9. It does to most working class folks

no matter how you try to spin it

[Deja Q]

28. And then we, like corporations, whine and bleat Americans are uneducated...

Sadly, there are times the corporations are right.

Not that it would do much good because they too are spinning things for their own benefit.

Spinning is the way of the world...

[BobRossi]

10. Turing out in droves will do only one thing.

Fatten MM's wallet.

[KittyWampus]

12. No one will be inspired to change things? No one will be moved to discuss problems? No one will be

better informed?

Yes, all of those things will be happening and are happening.

So that's more than just that "one thing" you mentioned.

[Deja Q]

27. Nice to see some people understand things.

While it's true Moore's on record donating to causes, the link I'd seen has zero details. Like Bill Gates donating $10,000 to something, presented the net worth:donation ratio, that's like 0.0000000000005%, forgive me for not taking the time to be precise for once, but rest assured it's a VERY small percentage. With the same percentage, we're all friggin' heroes for donating that much of our net worth to the same charities.

[KittyWampus]

11. Knowledge is power. Artwork/Storytelling is Inspirational.

[Bolo Boffin]

13. Michael usually releases his movies for free on the Internet. He did that with Sicko. n/t

[Deja Q]

29. See #25. I don't think that's entirely true. Indeed, where's the "walk his talk" aspect?

I'm sure he changed his mind at some point. But if Moore has been anti-capitalist and working behind the suits to bring in the moola all these decades, he shouldn't be, as late as 2007, saying how piracy hurts his business.

and, yes, it's his business. That's why he's in it. To make money.

And now he is telling others to incite a "revolution".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6678954

Let HIM start it or let him shut the frig up and retire cozily. Until then, he's just a businessman, using capitalism to make money, with the nastiest of all ironies. People want proof, not to be told what to do.

[Bolo Boffin]

41. Google "Tu Quoque". You're soaking in it. n/t

[Kaleko]

43. Your arguments have been debunked many times already

in several other threads. Yet you keep spewing your faulty logic. Are you unable to comprehend that successful artists/producers/entrepreneurs do not have to divest themselves of all their earnings and take a vow of poverty in order to effect social change?

[Spoonman]

94. BS

Debunked?
Read the credits at the end of every film he has made, and you will see the investor groups that paid to make the film.

MM is a capitalist period.

[Kaleko]

99. Good luck.

With arguments like this, you're going to need it.

[Sebastian Doyle]

33. I'm actually surprised that "Capitalism" has NOT turned up on the net

Yeah, you'll find the title in a search engine, but don't bother.... they're all fakes, and some of them probably loaded with a virus.

"Sicko" was relatively easy to find.... and that made it possible for me to show the movie to people who would probably never go to the cinema to see a Michael Moore film.

[Generic Other]

36. Michael Moore explained that SICKO was stolen

CNN leaked a copy to a Bush admin official whose "son" supposedly uploaded it to the net before its release. Moore decided then to offer it free himself. He's still waitng for the FBI to investigate and do what they always say they will do at the beginning of the movie to anyone ripping off a film.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Towlie wants to steal from artists and thinks that is groovy!

But poor Towlie, he has an absorbent brain! Too much liquid sopped up! He can not even understand that he himself is a cheating, thief taking the pension money from middle class Union members when he pushes stealing on the internet. Hey, if I steal a UAW built car, is that groovy too?
And you know, if you can not stand to see a showman be a showman, if you must marvel that artists try to get people to see their works, if you can not comprehend that this movie could not exist in Priate Bay World, y'all make nothing, zero, nada. You steal what others make. And to call out Moore of all people, the only major filmmaker in America who has actually released films for nothing, to download freely, is just too ironic.
Now go steal from others like a good neighbor.

[Deja Q]

31. Thanks for proving the point that Moore is a capitalist who wants your money and nothing more.

Except to get his audience to die for him in "revolution"...

It's a fuckin' JOKE. Or do I mean "He's" instead of "It's"? I don't know...

[KittyWampus]

38. thanks for demonstrating an absurd logical fallacy. That Moore can't critique an economic system

because he necessarily has to participate in it.

And it's also noted that in doing so, you twist the issue away from the topic of the film, and Moore's points raised in the film, to Moore himself.

[sabrina 1]

60. He is a businessman.

How is MM participating in the predatory system he is criticizing? Has he sold worthless pieces of paper to anyone? Has he out-sourced American jobs to sweat shops in China?

There were honest businessmen, like Moore, long before there was the system we have here in the US. Many made their fortunes without preying on others.

He is doing the opposite of what you are claiming. He is demonstrating that you can be successful without cheating, without misrepresenting what you are selling in order to make a profit, without abusing people. That's the old way isn't it?

What did we call being in business to make an honest living and a decent profit before Milton Friedman introduced us to the unregulated 'Free Market' and wanton Capitalism?

You are confused about what MM is against and basing your argument on that confusion. I've never heard him say he is against people running and profiting from a successful business.

You're not making any sense to me, to be honest.

[Towlie]

46. Sorry to hear about your reading comprehension impairment, Bluenorthwest.

I don't want to steal anything from anybody. I specifically stated that I'm not into that sort of thing. I just said it'll be interesting to watch if and when it happens. You made some strong accusations that were entirely unjustified.

[Touchdown]

49. No, you just innocently dropped the suggestion into people's minds

... and trottled off with a fake caveat that you would do no such horrible thing. It's even worse than bootlegging the film yourself. You are inciting people to do the crime, but like Beck, your too chickenshit to do it yourself.

Bluenorthwest's reading comprehension is just fine. Your phoney "specific" statement is slimey and transparent.

[Fire1]

61. Dude, you certainly gave yourself the right name! Kudos. n/t

[Zodiak]

84. It's also not theft...it is copyright infringement

People who love to suck up to the industry call it "theft", but that is just spin. The crime is copyright infringement. To steal something, you have to take it and leave the owner with nothing where he had something before. Copying something is NOT stealing, but it can lead to monetary damages.

If it WAS stealing, there would be criminal, not civil charges against infringers.

[Touchdown]

86. I guess you've never watched a DVD, or VHS for that matter.

No prison terms, huh?

[flamingdem]

15. That is foolish of you, it's a miracle this film has opened so widely, kudos to MM nt

[Beaverhausen]

16. Let me speak as someone employed by the motion picture industry

The industry creates products that are shown in theatres, then sold in stores and shown on TV. Real, tangible products; some good, some great, some not so good. Most of the world purchases and enjoys our "art" - one of the few things we are still able to export and make money on.

The industry employes thousands (millions?) of people here in southern California and around the world. And don't forget those who work at movie theatres, rental chain stores, etc. in your towns.

The heads of the studio I work for are Democrats. Most of our films, if they have any political bent, will bend to the left. Our studio encourages/facilitates us to volunteer, donate money to charities and is a very environmentally conscious business.

So, being as I work at a studio, of course I'm biased. But please keep in mind how many people's jobs depend on this industry, and it is an industry worth supporting.

[omega minimo]

24. It's also killing itself the way Corporate Music did by charging too much per unit.

Why not make prices reasonable so people go more often and quit trying to find alternatives to paying exorbitant prices?

[Touchdown]

50. Bullshit. The Lion King on Broadway? $165 a ticket. Up in a theater? Average $8.

Terminator 2 on Laserdisc in 1992? $65. Special Edition? $99.95
Terminator 2 on Blu Ray in 2009? $12.99. Skynet Edition? $19.99

Too much per unit... :eyes:

[omega minimo]

83. The reference was to movie prices. Theaters charge too much.

[Touchdown]

85. I referenced that.

Did you miss $8 vs. $160 for a live play?

Like it or not, it's still one of the cheapest forms of entertainment available.

Six Flags. $50 a day per person
The Zoo. Average $25 a person
U2 Concert. $200 average
Bowling. $15 per person
Tittie Bars (Excuse me... Gentlemen's Clubs). Average $65 a night. $400 for the desperate guys.
Ocean Cruise. $2500 or 4 long years with a mop and a paint brush in the Navy (where movie prices are probably still $5, so that's good!).

Kids pretending Six Flags in the back yard. $800 for the redwood swing set.
Wife stripping as a "Affordable Alternative" to TBs. Husband's entire paycheck, or a lifetime of alimony if she's creeped out by it.

[omega minimo]

87. No. You called it bullshit. Then did a strawman number.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

64. The one damn thing not made in China

And people here still want to damage it!

Some people just don't care about others' jobs, only their own.

How much hatred we see here for "the corporations" and insurance companies while simultaneously demanding they provide jobs to the citizenry!

[Spoonman]

92. "The heads of the studio I work for are Democrats."

You forgot to mention they are capitalists too!

MM is a sheep herder leading a huge flock!

[man4allcats]

18. Most of us, if we're lucky anyway, have some kind of job for which we are paid.

Michael's job is making documentaries. Encouraging people to "put the bosses on notice" by seeing his new movie, to buy tickets to "protest against corporate America" is really nothing more than good marketing. Advertising, or marketing, is the art of convincing people at an emotional level to open their wallets and buy what you are selling. Unlike much if not most of corporate America, Michael sells a good product at a fair price. I have no objection to his getting paid for his efforts. Effective marketing is part of that process. My boss knows better than to think I'll work for free. I see no reason why Michael should.

[leveymg]

19. You don't like Michael Moore much, do you Towlie?

Just admit it.

[Towlie]

45. Sure, I like him. I just didn't like that shallow-sounding sales pitch of his.

Everything I wrote addressed his argument, which comprises most of http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/3/789410/-A-Great-Opening-NightDo-Not-Put-Off-Seeing-Capitalism:-A-Love-StoryWall-Street-is-Watching">this letter. That doesn't mean I don't like Michael Moore himself, or that I don't appreciate his movies.

[HughMoran]

21. It has to start somewhere

You're method has produced results when...?

[omega minimo]

22. MM sure has brought lots of cynical, spoiled, ungrateful, impotent, unAmerican childishness out

of people who think they can sit on their lazy asses and do nothing and still be protected from what he's been warning -- correctly -- about for 20+ years.

:crazy: :hide:

[Fire1]

62. No need to hide, Omega. When you're right you're right. n/t

[Fire1]

63. On the upside. Bitchin is the best cure for what ailes you.

Doesn't cure a damned thing but you feel better. LOL!!!

[omega minimo]

67. The revolutionary artist who succeeds is always called a sellout by those who come after

No one calls Madonna a sell out because she sold out from the very beginning -- that was her "revolutionary" schtick. (If that's too much for anyone, please read my sigline and profile disclaimer and move on)

The revolutionary artist who succeeds is always called a sellout by those who come after. esp. if there is a conventional media windbag machine blowing hot lies in their brains, about how he's "full of himself" and "if he was for real he would......."

I've met two of these young ingrates this week, both nice young men (I think both were men), written about both of them on DU; kind people who care about this stuff, not dumb, but somehow indoctrinated to be critical of MM -- without having seen the film, without having any verification that he is "full of himself" or "only in it for the money." I.e. they were not Dittoheads but they displayed similar symptoms.

In both cases I have pointed out, that they might consider, when MM started out no one was doing what he did/does. Arguably, no one else has since, either. It's very easy to come after and take for granted what already exists and be hypercritical.

Ingrates.

[DailyGrind51]

23. Both multiplexes near my neighborhood had Moore's film.

[Deja Q]

25. Moore's on record saying pirates hurt his profits.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/michael_moore_changes_his_tune_about_piracy_becomes_big_giant_hypocrite/

“Every filmmaker intends for his film to be seen on the big screen,” Moore said. “This wasn’t a guy taking a video camera into a theater. This was an inside job, a copy made from a high-quality master and could potentially impact the opening weekend boxoffice. Who do you think benefits from that?”

Right-wing site or not, I don't care. He's right. Illegal piracy cuts into his profits, and it's obvious his business is to appeal to a certain market via emotional-wringing.

Indeed, even on DU someone posted "if there's no revolution, I'll quit making movies". Sounds like a neat way for him to urge others to do his dirty work for him while he sits back, laughing his way to the bank when cashing in the checks.


Now, in honesty, I still have yet to research when he changed his mind to let "Sick0" be downloaded for free. And/or why. But the chronology of his two comments, stated on that site, speaks volumes.

You and I are in the minority on this issue; most people blindly froth at what they like. Limbaugh does the same for his audiences. Talk talk talk and say that who they talk to should do the work. It's like bankers telling people to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps while getting bailout handouts while still getting their usual "government subsidy" checks...

[Bjorn Against]

72. You keep attacking Moore for doing nothing...

But this is the third time I will ask you what you have done and I am willing to bet that once again I will not get a response because you know damn well that Moore has done far more than you will ever hope to accomplish. I am an activist and most of my friends are activists, EVERY activist asks others to get involved because every activist knows they can not win the battle on their own. Of course Moore is going to ask others to get involved, he would not be at all effective if he tried to do everything on his own. He has done a lot, and he should be asking others to help him and you not begrudge him for doing so. What the hell do you do besides sit on the computer and attack real activists?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Michael Moore's "argument" is a commercial to sell a product.

Just like Ronald McDonald selling Happy Meals.

[Deja Q]

30. +1

He is the left-wing equivalent to Limbaugh, nothing more.

Like I just said to another responder here, Moore should walk his talk or bugger off. How DARE he tell others to rise up and revolt (while he sits back and giggles)?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Well now that's a load of bullshit.

Limbaugh's a liar and a bigot.

[Patriot 76]

55. How many times are you going to call him the Limbaugh of the Left?

Do you understand how pathetic you sound spouting your nonsense on every MM thread?

Who do you think you're fooling?

[QC]

69. It's less tiresome than the other bizarre obsessions he forces on us, though.

Be grateful for small things.

[PVnRT]

82. Yeah, how DARE he.

Your poutrage is noted.

[KittyWampus]

39. Ronald McDonald is not a corporation making/selling hamburgers. Moore is an individual artist

who makes a piece of artwork and then markets it.

And while a Happy Meal gets flushed down the toilet the next day, the information and inspiration that Moore provides will last a lifetime.

[Zix]

48. Truth's proooobably NOT so bleak, here.

Michael Moore may actually believe in some things.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Is Michael Moore really going to quit if there's no revolution?

Are the corporations quaking in their boots?

Are Americans going to stop being chumps?

Is it the end of teabaggers.

I don't believe that. I don't think Michael Moore believes it either.

Expect him to make similar grandiose sales pitches on whatever topic his next project will be about.

[Zix]

54. Well, I don't know what methods you would have him use.

Who knows what the corporations are thinking? I'm sure they'd rather he DIDN'T make these movies, if nothing else.

Americans being chumps - hm, I'm not American and although I've had a lot of fun pouring scorn on Americans who ARE chumps on other message boards it would be rude of me to make that generalisation, although I won't deny *you* that observation.

You know, it MIGHT be the end of teabaggers anyway, whether Mike Moore makes his movies or not. Most people think they're just laughable. Even the ones carrying guns are really just funny. What, they're going to shoot someone? No. They're not. If they did it would be a total catastrophe for their movement - it would END their movement straight away.

I don't really know that Michael Moore knows what to expect from his projects and you;re right that some of his pitch is possibly hyperbole, but salesman do hyperbole, it's mostly what works. You're right, he is selling something, but given that what he's selling is a message about the dangers of buying and selling, I think the intensity of whatever hypocrisy can be read into that is outweighed by whatever education of the populace ensues.

I disagree with what I perceived to be implied in your post (apologies if it wasn't your intention) that he has no principles at all. That I don't believe.

[LanternWaste]

57. One man's passion is another man's sales pitch...

One man's passion is another man's sales pitch. Look at perspective rather than means.

[omega minimo]

89. The cynical slime is just so oozy and comfy, ain't it?

You'll be stuck when the world moves on................

[omega minimo]

68. Just as yours are

although his product has more substance than syrup.

[Generic Other]

34. I think it's about what you pledge to do after the movie is over

Paul Revere did not fight in the American Revolution. He merely sounded the alarm that signaled every patriot on the road to Lexington and Concord to grab their guns and defend their homes. This is change that falls outside the ballot box. It is the change our coluntry was founded on.

So what are you going to do? To strike a blow for freedom? You got the message. No use wasting breath parsing it. Time for you to commit to action.

Waiting to hear what that will be.

[Generic Other]

42. Towli says "it'll be interesting to watch"

Michael Moore says "Democracy is not a spectator sport."

[AllentownJake]

35. What would you suggest he do to get his message out?

Stand with a bull horn on the street screaming.

The production of that movie cost him something in both time and investment. In order for him to make more movies that expose what is going on he needs money.

After the movies have been released in theaters and thus of us who support his work pay for it, he has this tendency to give it away for free download.

[Generic Other]

37. Apparently there are people on our side who don't want the message to get out!

They seem content to let Limbaugh shape the message. Who the fuck else do we have to throw against the daily shit coming from the media? I am not listening to anymore bullshit from the naysayers who denigrate the one consistent voice raised on our behalf.

I do think we all should be standing on streetcorners screaming into bullhorns. Our energy would trump their money. YES. That's the only power we have. Even our votes seem nearly meaningless these days.

We need a thousand Michael Moores. A dozen in every city and town in America. Marching on city hall, statehouse and federal buildings. We the people.

Do I expect to see my so-called political allies man barricades against me? Lord help them if they stand in my way!

[bridgit]

40. He was was tapped the other day on NPR for taking corporate funding...

from some of the very people he would seem in opposition to. Some back & forth about what passes for collusion 101 and then I thought hell yeah! Why should I have to go to bed with the devil, when lunch over tuna fish & green tea on his veranda *&* his dime would suffice

[bertman]

44. I'm spending my hard-earned pay to see his movie in the theater and I intend to take my

friends to see it in the theater. Furthermore, I'm doing that so Michael Moore will be paid for what he's done.

Someone's comment that Michael Moore needs to do something besides talk about a revolution reminds me of those guys like Thomas Jefferson, Tom Paine, and Benjamin Franklin, those sorry-assed whiners who never fired a musket at a redcoat. What a bunch of do-nothing losers who could only bitch about tyranny. What did THEY ever do for democracy??

When the video comes out I'm going to buy it and give it to my reich-wing family and friends so they can watch it in the privacy of their homes without having to face ridicule for being seen at a theater watching a Michael Moore film.

And, for all of you who think Michael Moore is just a bag of hot air who only makes movies for profit, I know of four conservatives who changed their political orientation after seeing "Sicko".

These were people who voted for Bush and Jesse Helms. Yet, when they were shown what is REALLY going on in our so-called healthcare system, their eyes were opened and they began viewing the world differently.

[donheld]

47. MIchael is merely trying to get a message across

He want's us to do much more than just see his movie. If we don't start taking action and getting vocal, Militant, about it then he knows his movie is worthless.

[JonQ]

51. Strikes me as similiar to the line of thinking

that buying a t-shirt at the mall with che on the front strikes a blow at capitalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. You are aware that the big studios are not behind this movie

right?

Just checking

[earth mom]

56. Moore would not have been able to get his movies into theatre chains WITHOUT the movie industry

behind him.

Get a clue. Your post holds absolutely no water and belongs on some other forum where they get off on dissing Moore and other liberals who are fighting for the people. :puke


FYI-There is a way of doing things in Hollywood and Moore is smart enough to know that his films won't be shown by major theatre chains without giving those corporations a slice of the pie.

Kudos for Moore for figuring out how to use them just as they use all of us!!! :applause:

[Canuckistanian]

58. I'm amazed that Sicko didn't make a bigger impact

After I saw the film, I was ready to go out and kick ass... but then I'm not American. I'm Canadian.

But at least, I thought, this movie will galvanize HUGE public reaction to the travesty of American health care. But no, it seemed to have very little significance, either on the public stage or even here. No significant citizen's groups have formed, and public reaction has been muted.

I'd like to think MM's take on Wall Street would be some kind of clarion call to citizens, but I have my doubts as to the ensuing reaction.

Americans, it seems, don't like people rocking the boat, no matter how horrendous the boat.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yodermon]

65. Becuase the $ from this movie is ONE TINY DROP IN THE BUCKET

compared to, oh let me think, THE ENTIRE FOR-PROFIT VULTURE-CAPITALIST STRUCTURE OF THE UNITED STATES.

But MM stands to make a few bucks so his entire thesis is bullshit.
Gotcha.

[rucky]

73. It's a fair way to make a buck.

I don't think MM or anybody else object to people - or even businesses - doing that.

He's providing something of value.
It's at a price that may or may not be seen as fair (people usually decide that after they consume the product).
He's doing it through honest means.

If people see the value in it, they'll see the movie. It'll fail or succeed on its own merits.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I don't think that's how the corporations featured in the film tend to do business.

[Hannah Bell]

75. moore produced it. so it's mostly moore who's profiting, not "the industry".

[Tx4obama]

76. I hope that...

I hope that Moore makes tons and tons of money, then he will have enough money to make whatever film he wishes to in the future without having to go begging to anyone for the bucks.

p.s. He said the other night in one of the interviews that his employees's health care is covered 100% and they don't have to pay even one dime. He's putting some of that money to good use already ;)

[saltpoint]

78. The old chestnut, 'Life is short; Art is long,' obtains.

Moore's documentaries heavily favor an anti-corporate pro-working class point of view, and he is properly considered an independent film-maker.

RED DAWN is a Hollywood production with a right-wing point of view.

Most of Robert Redford's films are films ostensibly from Hollywood which argue in favor of sub-populations' dignity in the greater culture.

The range is wide and the politics variable. It really does depend on which film you are talking about.

Were the choice mine, I would rather more people than fewer see Moore's documentaries.

[BMD]

93. Michael Moore is like a kid who cries and complains, and won't realize what he had until it is gone.

We all know that capitalism isn't perfect.. and he does make a few good points. But overall, he's a nut.

[Spoonman]

95. He's a Capitalist Genius!

Capitalizing on the hate of capitalism... sheer fucking genius!

[Warren Stupidity]

98. Yeah 'cause demonstrating that there is a huge progressive audience

would be just stupid. Much better that the system not have to deal with a massive contradiction like 'mass market for anti-kleptocracy media'. Yeah, indeed, truly brilliant: rip off Moore so that he can't make another film. Excellent. K&U.

[ContinentalOp]

102. And here come the hypocritical union haters out in full force.

If your industry is centered in Detroit it's sacrosanct. How many billions would you like from the government?

But if you live in Hollywood and make GASP... entertainment!!! The horror. What a bunch of evil capitalists.

[eridani]

103. He's wrong, because the people who see it will be the people who already agree with him

SiCKO didn't get us single payer.