"If students were allowed to carry guns this wouldn't happen."

[El Supremo]

That's what I just heard on a Fox affilliated radio station.

I can't believe the gun mentality of so many people.

We'll be hearing a lot of this this week.

I hope Michael Moore is on the way there.

[NightWatcher]

1. no, it'd happen alot more often

[maveric]

5. Indeed!

[Bucky]

191. I'm thinking of the types of students who would be the first to come armed to class

It's almost the polar opposite of who you want packing heat.

[Dora]

2. If students were allowed to carry guns....

... the job market for new PhDs would be different.

[LiberalFighter]

67. It be easier to get a PhD wouldn't it?

Hey teach I want a PhD now!! Let's just skip this lernin stuf.

[Monkeyman]

3. Can You Say Gunfight at ok carrel

[aikoaiko]

4. well since you've gone down this road... I'll join you.

As a college professor, I wish I were permitted to carry a concealed firearm because universities are incredibly vulnerable to this type of tragedy.

[karlrschneider]

9. You'd shoot your EYE out!

just kidding, I agree with you 100%

[Solo_in_MD]

16. Concur

A while back I had a CCW. There are days I miss it

[piedmont]

73. Exactly. "Weapon-free zone" my ass. nt

[Alexander]

249. Too bad there's no "crime-free zone"

Otherwise those without the ability to defend themselves are at a distinct disadvantage.

[slackmaster]

149. Anyone who can qualify for a concealed carry permit should be able to carry on campus

Most people have no interest whatsoever in arming themselves, and won't even apply for a permit, hype notwithstanding.

Those who are willing to take on that responsibility and can pass the requirements for a permit should be able to exercise that right when they are working at or attending classes on a college campus.

[Dr Fate]

179. Which means we will have to lower the age for having a permit- to prevent pre-college age shootings.

We want High School, Middle School and Elementary school students to be allowed to engage in shoot-outs when necessary as well.

After all, if the solution to these campus shootings is more combat equipment, then it should be available to ALL students who can pass the training.

Plenty of 5th grade kids hunt with their dads and can learn to handle guns properly.

[slackmaster]

184. Your strawman notwithstanding, there are always people over 21 at schools

Nobody is talking seriously about arming everyone.

[Dr Fate]

187. Strawman? Did we not agree that the way to stop campus shootings was to arm the students?

I see- so for k-12, we only arm and train the Lunch Lady and the Home Economics Teacher, and that geeky biology teacher- The football-coach too- I'm not leaving out the tough guys on this one.

Okay- so no students get to pack heat until they go off to college-now it's all making sense.

Can we at least let children bring guns to football games though? I'd hate to see another tradgedy.

[slackmaster]

188. No

Did we not agree that the way to stop campus shootings was to arm the students?

I do not now agree, nor have I never have agreed to that.

[Dr Fate]

194. I thought we were all saying that if the students at VA had been armed, this would not have happened

Okay- so now only the coach and the lunch lady get to pack heat.

Are you sure that's enough fire power to handle ALL danger?

Since we wont let them have guns, can pre-college students at least wear kevlar and helmets for when the lunch lady and the biology teacher has to shoot it out with Harris & Klebold?

I mean after all, school shootings arent just at colleges you know.

[slackmaster]

198. No again

My position is and has always been that someone who has a valid concealed weapons permit and is willing to assume the huge responsibility of carrying a weapon, should be able to do so pretty much anywhere.

[Dr Fate]

205. I guess we have to wait until there are more shootings- then more people will want concealed guns.

If we cant require students and staff to conceal weapons ontheir persons, then I guess we will just have to wait until more of these incidents happen before they finally "wake up" learn their lessons that MORE guns are the answer.

I'm still concerned about the under 21 kids though-who is going to shoot back for them if the one teacher in the room is the 1st to get shot- and the then shooter takes her gun?

The problem with your theory that under 21 kids cant have guns is that the shooter might have a quicker draw than the one teacher in the room- it would be better if more trained gunmen were available.

[slackmaster]

211. I'm morally opposed to requiring anyone to do anything

And this sub-thread is nothing but trite and silly.

[Dr Fate]

213. Exactly- that is why we must wait until they see the light. A few hundred more dead kids should do.

THEN they will see the error of their ways and realize that that if they had proper door-to-door combat training, equipment and weaponry, none of this ever would have happened.

[beevul]

220. Before you lay into Slack too much...

"THEN they will see the error of their ways and realize that that if they had proper door-to-door combat training, equipment and weaponry, none of this ever would have happened."


Perhaps you should reflect on the effects that the opposite (this being a gun free zone) had in enabling this tragedy.

Noone is saying what you are stating in the quoted. Theres alot of ground between that and a gun free zone however.

[Dr Fate]

223. If those kids had kevlar & proper combat training, this never would have happened

Not to mention actual fire-arms.

If no one else is saying that this would not happen if students had guns (and they are) , kevlar vests and combat survival training then I am saying it. Someone has to stick up for the kids around here!!!!

[Alexander]

252. As we all know, murderous psycopaths ALWAYS follow the law.

Therefore restricting and banning guns will definitely put a stop to violence.

:sarcasm:

[Dr Fate]

254. Exactly right. That's why children & teachers need guns, kevlar & urban combat training.

We must EMBRACE, not reject the NRA's gun-culture if we all want to survive in one piece. We certainly cant make the NRA or us gun absolutists do anything to change.

Cant beat us? Join US!!!

Fight fire with fire- we cant ever make those criminals act right, so we must teach our children and their teachers to kill as good as the criminals do.

More weapons and more training is clearly the only sane solution.

[pitohui]

257. sounds reasonable to me, slackmeister

until this day i guess i didn't know that ccw's weren't allowed to carry on school grounds

some people live on campus (dorms), seems the school is essentially telling these people that there is no way, no test they can pass, that allows them to have a gun at all

not sure of the fairness in that if we're talking about a mentally healthy adult

[Dr Fate]

259. True- but isnt it even more reasonable if the guns are not concealed at all?

If the would be gunman SEES that I'm packing heat, trust me, he WILL stand down.

[michreject]

161. I agree with you

There would be a lot less dead students today if the student/teacher were allowed to carry concealed weapons.

[Dr Fate]

177. And that goes for High School & middle schools- all those kids should also carry concealed firearms.

There would be less fear & violence if every campus allowed it's student population to be armed to the teeth.

I'd say that helmets, kevlar and proper foot wear, plus requisite combat training is also in order.

[michreject]

192. You have to be 21 to get a ccw

If you're still in middle school when your 21, you have bigger issues to worry about.

[Dr Fate]

196. So I guess your "arm the students" solution only protects college kids then.

Those poor pre-college kids will just have to hide and hope that the combat-trained Home Economics teacher has a good aim and nerves of steel.

[michreject]

197. No

It let's ADULTS protect themselves.

[Dr Fate]

208. So under 21 children will just have to get shot then. We should at least make them wear kevlar.

This is not fair to the kids- what if the one teacher in the room isnt as "quick on the draw" as the shooter and is the 1st to get shot, then the shooter takes that gun?

THEN who protects the kids?

No, the students must have guns too- either that or more over 21 armed guards per class room.

[michreject]

237. And what protection do they have

if everybody is unarmed? Quick answer....none.

[RedCappedBandit]

240. And what protection do I have

against some idiot who thinks he's above everyone else because he carries a gun?

IMO, the people who are likely to go out and get guns are the last people I would want bringing them to school.

[Dr Fate]

244. You Liberals dont get, do you? YOU have to ARM yourself and get proper training somewhere.

That is YOUR responsibility as well as your RIGHT.

If you dont want to get shot, then I suggest you learn to accept the gun-culture and become part of it. A kevlar vest wouldnt hurt either.

And dont tell me you dont like guns either- either arm yourself and get proper training, or stay at home at let us real men handle these things.

[RedCappedBandit]

245. Hahaha

[Dr Fate]

246. I disagree. Engaging children in urban combat scenarios is my-no OUR- second amendment right.

It's right there somewhere between "being for the security of a free state" and "well regulated militia."

Also, you might want to start wearing helmets and proper combat footwear too. Various survival manuals are also available at your local gun-show.

I suggest you start reading up.

[Dr Fate]

243. Why are you asking me? I'm with you- I want urban combat training for children & teachers.

It's either that or take on the NRA and other collectors of combat weaponry- and God knows that is not an option.

At the least, there should be a fully armored and armed security guard in each classroom, so kids dont have to think about it- that is, until we can require all teachers and staff to be former cops or military.

But to answer your question, if "everybody is unarmed", then I guess it would just be a fist fight, or a battle of the brick-bats-or maybe they could all drive cars into each other.

[Squatch]

6. VT has a 100% prohibition on guns on campus property.

Unless you're a LEO, that is.

So, with that kind of strong prohibition, there's no way in hell any deranged asshole will bring a gun on campus. Afterall, criminals are well known for their ability to follow the laws and policies of their communities.

[karlrschneider]

37. Careful there, you're breaking irony detectors right and left...

;-)

[Robson]

52. Criminals and psychos will always find guns and kill

Law abiding normal citizens don't run around and shoot people and to use an old expression guns, cars, and knives don't kill people either. People kill people.

The criminals and psycho nuts do and they will always find and carry firearms or lethal weapons, even if the law forbids it. Laws won't stop them. It's the unarmed defenseless innocents that become the victims.

It's unfortunate that our civilization has become more willing to kill many innocent people. Could it be because we have legitimate governments and illegitimate terrorists that have no hesitation to set an example to make their shock and awe point, such as in Iraq and Lebanon and 9-11?

[tridim]

7. That statement is criminal IMO

But I'm just a Liberal pacifist so my opinion doesn't matter.

More guns = more innocent dead people. Period.

[SJames]

18. Worked out ok in

The SLC mall shooting ................stopped it . Care to point out any FACTS to back yourself up ???

[Beaverhausen]

22. Wasn't it security guards who got that shooter?

hardly comparable.

[SJames]

63. Off duty

cop , WITH a Carry permit ........very comparable .

[blondeatlast]

271. Wrong. In most jusrisdictions, even off-duty cops are REQUIRED to carry. nt

[tridim]

48. Every person in the mall was carrying a gun?

How about backing up that "fact"? :eyes:

[SJames]

65. I never stated that

Dont put words in my mouth . Bad move .

[GirlinContempt]

125. One third of Canadian murders involve guns.

Two thirds of murders in the US involve guns.

* Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
* The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
* American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)
http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm

[pingdashf]

203. What do you want to stop?

Stop the murders, and the guns wont matter.

[GirlinContempt]

224. OK

You figure out how to stop random heat of the moment murder, premeditated murder, accidental manslaughter, etc by handguns, and get back to me, and maybe I'll change my mind.
As it stands, countries with more guns and less gun laws tend to have higher (much higher) instances of gun crime. So 'stop murder' if you can, if there aren't any crazed murderers roaming the streets, why would you need your gun anyway? It's a silly argument.

[pingdashf]

200. that's your opinoin

More guns = more innocent people dead eh? Based on what? Don't say common sense, show some real effort. More firepower per capita exists in Switzerland than anywhere else in the world but we are 5 times more likely to be murdered with a gun then the swiss.

[tridim]

218. See that "IMO" in my post, that means "In My Opinion"

America is NOT Switzerland, or Canada, or anywhere else where responsible gun ownership is common. Have you watched "Bowling For Columbine"? I suggest you do. The "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality in America mixed with even more guns is a terrifying thought in the age of faux-terra.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Just like Baghdad.

Everybody's got guns, and it's perfectly safe to walk through the market.

[uppityperson]

39. Excellent response! Thank you.

[hogwyld]

120. Bingo!!

Awesome comeback!!

[AuntPatsy]

182. Wow common sense with reality showing through..

[pingdashf]

204. Actually...

At risk of being completely flamed, I like the idea that if the U.S. was invaded we could put up a decent armed resistance.

[villager]

10. it's the inevitable gun nut rejoinder -- everyone will just be constantly drawing down on each other

their version of "civil society..."

[Squatch]

13. Yeah...far better to die unarmed, at the mercy of a lunatic.

[villager]

23. like I said, the inevitable rejoinder...

n/t

[karlrschneider]

26. Amen to that.

...

[SJames]

70. LMAO

Just cant see the fact that bad people do bad things . Must be a nice bubble you live in .

[karlrschneider]

75. WTF are you babbling about?

:eyes:

[SJames]

114. Bad click , sorry karl .............

[karlrschneider]

126. Sorry, I see you're one of the sane ones (from your other posts)

:D

No worries.

[villager]

174. how about your "any gun, anywhere is A.O.K.!" bubble?

n/t

[Zynx]

71. This is why you don't give up to lunatics.

Much better chance of living if you attack the guy instead of assuming an execution position.

People generally suck at combat shooting. They don't suck at hitting stationary targets two feet away.

[SJames]

21. This does not happen

And you can not prove that it does .

[Scout]

103. you really haven't been around long, have you?

:eyes:

nope, no one on DU anywhere, especially not the gungeon, has ever, ever, ever said anything any way resembling a comment to the effect that "if the victims had been armed, they could have killed the shooter before he killed them."

you could be amusing if you tried a little harder... right now, you're just annoying.

[SJames]

111. I would like to point out

nope, no one on DU anywhere, especially not the gungeon, has ever, ever, ever said anything any way resembling a comment to the effect that "if the victims had been armed, they could have killed the shooter before he killed them."

you could be amusing if you tried a little harder... right now, you're just annoying.

That you are following here ,

everyone will just be constantly drawing down on each other

this does not happen . the above .

Carry on .Please YOU try a little harder .

[Greyhound]

158. As far as some here are concerned, you were born Mar 09th 2007,

and couldn't possibly know anything at all, nor are your opinions of any value.

Sorry and welcome.
:hi:

[Greyhound]

153. Sure just like in the "old west" that never was. Funny how when we have a model

of an America where virtually everyone was armed, and mass murders were rare, and people did watch out for one another, we just ignore it.

[pingdashf]

206. 135,000 CHP's in VA, Haven't seen anyone "drawing down"

Living in VA, with over 100,000 concealed permits and no-permit needed to openly carry, I have yet to see anyone "draw down". Does this happen where you live?

[bluestateguy]

11. That is a despicable thing to say

Some jerk using this to further a pro-gun agenda is as wrong as if they were using the issue to further an anti-gun agenda.

[pingdashf]

207. That's politics

Unfortunately this is just politics. Both sides want to use emotion instead of reality.

[camero]

12. And if I had a car

I wouldn't get killed crossing the street.

[Lex]

14. Yes, once EVERYone is armed, shootings are bound to stop.

Jesus, so stupid.

[uppityperson]

19. put a bunch of students holding guns in a situation where the police are trying to shoot gunman?

Yup, seems like a really safe situation. 1 person shoots, 26 draw guns and start shooting each other because "OMG! THERE IS SOMEONE WITH A GUN who MIGHT be the gunman" pow pow pow

I wish people advocating that might realize that these situations are chaotic and adding more to the mixture might not be the best idea. Yes, stupid, I agree with you.

Oh shit. I just responded to a gun thing.

[pingdashf]

210. Gunman would be long dead

The gunman would have been long dead and the police would just have to do some paperwork and remove the body.

[uppityperson]

214. Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps you missed this possible scenario...

1 person shoots, 26 draw guns and start shooting each other because "OMG! THERE IS SOMEONE WITH A GUN who MIGHT be the gunman" pow pow pow

I wish people advocating that might realize that these situations are chaotic and adding more to the mixture might not be the best idea.

It is not always easy, even for trained law enforcement people, to tell who is the Bad guy.

[pingdashf]

247. Chaos vs. Chaos

I would prefer to be armed in your theoretical chaos than unarmed in the realistic chaos that happened at VT today.

[Dr Fate]

251. Exactly. All those wimps who dont want to own guns should just stay at home and hide...

...and let us real men duke this out.

Imagine the gall of these people- NOT wanting to have to walk around armed all the time as the 2nd Amendment mandates.

You "get it"- if EVERYONE becomes part of our para-militaristic gun-culture (kids, grannies, mail men, bookish college professors, school janitors, etc), then we have nothing to worry about- it's the people who REFUSE to love guns and get proper training who are holding the rest of us back.

[laststeamtrain]

15. I was waiting for this old chestnut. They always say this after every mass murder.n/t

[ContraBass Black]

17. The Virginia Tech Libertarians write newspaper editorials with that very statement

After every gun incident here.

[IWantAChange]

20. why would anyone with a brain care what's said on Faux??

[gasperc]

24. if students carried guns, they'd threated each other every day

what you say? you wanna get capped.

stupid, stupid mentality

[karlrschneider]

33. I guess that explains all the gunfights down at the police station.

:eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

43. well that's an ignorant comparison...

unless the cops in your town all have the mentality and emotional maturity of a bunch of college-age kids.

[karlrschneider]

49. Oh? Well, I worked my way through college as a cop.

Where I live now, 90% of all boys over 12 have guns of their own...they don't have regular shootouts that I'm aware of.

[dysfunctional press]

55. so you're saying that all cops have the mentality of college students...?

or that all college students have the maturity of cops...?

or what...?

btw- do you live on a college campus? if not, that thing about 90% of boys over 12 having guns is meaningless. kids in colleges come from ALL walks of life, and 90% of them do not have experience handling guns.

[karlrschneider]

57. You seem to have an awfully low opinion of college students.

Were you ever one? I never said every student should have a gun. There are a lot of families in Virginia who probably wish their son or daughter had, though.

[dysfunctional press]

60. at least 35 families are wishing that NOBODY had a gun on that campus.

i went to college, but not in the south- i went where sanity still prevails.

[karlrschneider]

61. Oh, well obviously no psychopath would ever dream of going into a New York

college and shooting people. Right. Do you want me to give up my guns? Guess what, no fucking way.

[dysfunctional press]

69. who asked you to give up your guns...?

par-a-noia, self-destroyah...

:eyes:

then again- it's probaly not a good idea for a raving paranoid to have a weapon, is it?

[karlrschneider]

72. That's pretty funny.

1-800-ABCDEFG

[dysfunctional press]

66. and regarding college students-

a LOT of them are living away from home for the first time, and they are at an age where their hormones and emotions drive their actions many times to a greater extent than their ability to reason as an adult.

it's not that i have a low opinion of college students- i have a low opinion of anyone who thinks that they should be armed.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dysfunctional press]

83. well, you keep replying...what else am i supposed to think?

that you're paranoid AND schitzophrenic?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

(someone's been sniffing to much gunpowder...maybe they need to go back to store-bought ammo)

[michreject]

166. Let me see if I have this right

do you live on a college campus? if not, that thing about 90% of boys over 12 having guns is meaningless. kids in colleges come from ALL walks of life, and 90% of them do not have experience handling guns.

It's estimated that there are enough guns privately owned in the U.S. to arm every man, woman and child. Approximately half the homes have a gun in them and you're saying that 90% of college students come from the non gun owning populist?

Me thinks your replay is nothing more than a SWAG.

[dysfunctional press]

181. i figured that if the poster i was replying to could pull a 90% figure out of his ass...

then i'd pull one out of mine.
but i'd still say that a very solid majority of college students don't have gun-handling experience.

btw- since when is 34.5% "approximately half"? i'd call it a LOT closer to 1/3

http://www.gunguys.com/?p=2059

the NORC data shows that during the period 1972 to 2006, the percentage of American households that reported having any guns in the home has dropped nearly 20 percentage points: from a high of 54 percent in 1977 to 34.5 percent in 2006. The data also shows that during the period 1980 to 2006, the percentage of Americans who reported personally owning a gun dropped more than nine percentage points: from a high of 30.7 percent in 1985 to a low during the survey period of 21.6 percent in 2006

[michreject]

195. Thegunguys

make up their own figure too, or they use the VPC site to do it for them. They're both the same org. Freedom States Alliance is nothing but made up stats.

[dysfunctional press]

238. actually you got 3 strikes with one post.

the stats, as stated in the excerpted segment come from NORC- the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago.

[Dr Fate]

228. Well, then maybe the Liberals should allow quick-draw classes in college.

But NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

[piedmont]

97. As we ALL know, cops are superior beings.

One day, if I become more mature, maybe I can be a cop.

[Bandit]

44. Or in Baghdad

:crazy:

[treestar]

171. The cops have training

and a specific job to do.

[villager]

175. probably explains the gang shootings, though...

:eyes:

[Monkeyman]

25. Here is my opinion

I have a weapon . I do not believe people who have no training should have one. They need to be tested to make sure they are not nut cases. I have it because of death wishes to me and my family. I know how to use it and would not pull it unless my life or family members life is in danger. But to let people just carry is just asking for it.

[hobbit709]

35. I agree

I personally don't tote one around but I do have several and know how to use them. And anyone who carries one should be evaluated and take gun safety/responsibility classes.

[Monkeyman]

42. I don't like to have to have it

But the wing nuts got my phone number and address off the internet and started to come after my family. I am not the only vet they came after. Must now carry

[brentspeak]

27. The Bush White House wasted no time repeating NRA talking points today:

""The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," Perino said, noting that Bush and Education Secretary
Margaret Spellings held a conference on school gun violence last October. "Certainly, bringing a gun into a school domitory and shooting ... is against the law and something someone should be held accountable for," Perino said."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_virginia_tech_2;_ylt=A0WTUfUauyNGgccAbAWm1OFF

Thanks, idiot. Did NRA Pierre have you on the phone before you met with the press, to make sure you repeated the NRA line?

[KG]

41. yes, all those gun owner who are law abiding, until of course, they're not.

[lpbk2713]

28. Pathetically and terminally stupid.

Morans like that shouldn't be allowed out of the house without a keeper.

[gravity]

29. I would be a lot more afraid at a campus that allows students to carry weapons

Than one where no one has guns.

The only way I would feel safe carrying a gun is if I was the only person who was allowed to carry the gun.

[karlrschneider]

32. Funny how that works, ain't it?

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

45. Copied from another thread, another poster:

Just like Baghdad.

Everybody's got guns, and it's perfectly safe to walk through the market.

[karlrschneider]

50. Is there a civil war in Peoria that hasn't been reported?

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

56. what?

[karlrschneider]

64. Is there a civil war in Peoria that hasn't been reported?

There's one in Iraq...to make it a bit plainer to the untutored casual observer.

[uppityperson]

79. not that I'm aware of. What does that have to do with anything?

My point was arming everyone doesn't make it all safe. Your point is?

[karlrschneider]

82. 1-800-ABCDEFG

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

92. eye-rolly guy and nonsense back. Not sure what's up with you today.

Since you won't tell me, I'm going to take my toys home and play with my other friends.

[TnDem]

105. A very telling post....

You trust yourself only and think that if anyone is armed, it should be you and you alone.

What about everyone else that has a desire to be safe and be armed?

I guess they just can't be trusted as viewed through the gravity-meter.

:crazy:

[gravity]

121. You missed my point

If it's just from my perspective, then I'll feel safer with a gun. But if everyone has the same rights and carried concealed weapons, then I would feel less safe even if I had a gun with me.

My point is that when everyone is armed and safe, society could ironically be more dangerous.

[KG]

30. yes, lets turn america into the worlds biggest wild west show.

laughable.

[WiseButAngrySara]

31. So idiotic it is criminally insane, and I have no comment. ....n/t

[SmokingJacket]

34. Riiight... binge drinking + guns!

Great combination!!!

[ThomCat]

36. Of course. If everyone had guns, somehow nobody would ever

use them. It's magic!
x(

They're idiots!

[Squatch]

40. Of course. If only one person had guns, somehow he would never

use them because the school has a policy of no firearms on campus. It's magic!

[ThomCat]

47. that seems to be what happened here.

All it takes is one gun for someone to create a massive tragedy. :(

I think there are many valid reasons why people should be able to obtain and own guns, but I think guns should be registered and tracked. I think it should be harder for people to buy or sell guns, and people who "lose" guns or have them "stolen" should be heavily investigated for not keeping them properly locked up.

I don't know that any of this would have prevented today's deaths though.

[beevul]

217. Not quite.

"All it takes is one gun for someone to create a massive tragedy."

You didn't touch on part about the "zone" of defenseless victims, and the people that created it, that were every bit as much enablers as firearms were in this tragedy.

[icymist]

38. Oh boy! Back to the 'quick draw' mentality of The Old West!

What a romantic notion!

[karlrschneider]

51. Too many movies. The "wild west" wasn't actually any wilder than now.

...

[Junkdrawer]

46. More guns = more deaths...Add to that delayed adolescence...

the first exposure to drugs and alcohol, and more academic pressure than students have ever experienced in their lives.

And people actually want an increased number of guns added to the mix?

[SJames]

112. Maybe parents should do their fucking jobs ........

[Junkdrawer]

118. Actually, the pressures I described would be MORE pronounced...

the stricter the parent.

[SJames]

128. Yea

right , let the kiddies find their own way in life .........I see it working all day long . :puke:

[Junkdrawer]

146. Didn't say that. My OP said that the college years are a time...

when kids are under immense pressures and the less guns, the better.

[Little Wing]

53. It happened because a student was carrying a gun

[karlrschneider]

68. And if another student, or a professor, did too the toll might have been 2 or 3 instead of 30.

:eyes:

[Little Wing]

76. That didn't take long

:eyes:

[karlrschneider]

77. Some people are willing to sit back and be slaughtered.

I'm not one of them.
Are you?

[Little Wing]

88. You're a complete waste of time

click

[dysfunctional press]

93. do you want to see a video of him giving an anti-gun control editorial...?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM

[Little Wing]

106. great video

:rofl:

[-..__...]

140. I guess this would be your view point then?

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/shoot.html

[dysfunctional press]

155. what viewpoint are you referring to...?

the one of the people in the animation, or the viewpoint of the artist who created it?

i'm honestly not sure which way you meant that...

[-..__...]

160. The artist.

Whatever ones opinion of gun owners and/or the NRA may be, the viewpoint presented in that little Flash animation is waaaay over the top.

[dysfunctional press]

80. and if they handed out guns to plane passengers, 9/11 never would have happened...

right, archie bunker...?

:eyes:

[karlrschneider]

85. It probably wouldn't have.

As to the Bunker reference, shove it.

[dysfunctional press]

89. c'mon...this is you in the video, right...?

i LOVE youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM

[SJames]

131. Firearms were

allowed on planes in the 40's and 50's , not many flown into buildings then .

[GirlinContempt]

136. Are you fucking kidding me?

Of all the lazy, asinine things I've read today, this is near the top of the list.

[dysfunctional press]

137. not a lot of cia-funded militant islamic fundamentalism back then either...

your point being?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM

[SJames]

142. Are you fucking kidding me?

Of all the lazy, asinine things I've read today, this is near the top of the list.

[dysfunctional press]

150. huh?

how is it lazy and asinine, exactly?

your reply makes absolutely no sense.

[SJames]

157. My click fu

is getting weak .........ment one above .......2nd time today ,mt bad sorry ...... going to get beer :toast:

[SidDithers]

165. Can I nominate this post for a DUzy?...

'cause no post could be that unintentionally stupid.

Sid

[SJames]

169. .

:sarcasm:

[Selatius]

86. People shouldn't have guns if they are untrained or fail some other qualification.

If everybody had guns there, there would be few mass killing incidents such as these, but the only people who should have guns are those who are trained and those who meet all the qualifications needed to carry a weapon. That is all. Otherwise, 31 dead bodies would turn up on campus over the course of a year in various violent incidents, instead of turning up in one day.

We do not need to give guns to people who are not trained or have mental problems or have a likelihood of committing crimes. What we need is gun control and gun education in America.

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. How many shootings at U. of Alaska-Fairbanks?

where students are allowed to have guns on campus?

[piedmont]

99. ZERO. nada. none. ZIP. 0 nt

[GirlinContempt]

143. How many shootings at numerous and diverse campuses

where handguns are banned? The vast majority of gunless campuses have NOT had one.

[yellowcanine]

58. Well we know that lots of college kids use alcohol, regardless of what the school policy is, so

yeah, add guns to the mix. Good idea. Not.

[Irreverend IX]

59. Every time concealed carry has been legalized...

It's resulted in a decrease in violent crime, and a slight increase in property crime, as crooks seek non-confrontational ways of making money. If students could carry on campus, psychos wouldn't feel so confident in their ability to perpetrate shooting sprees in that environment. After all, if gun prohibition works, why are Chicago and Washington DC so violent?

[karlrschneider]

81. Just recently a customer in a store carrying a concealed gun shot a robber

who was about to kill the manager. The perp didn't die but he quit threatening people.
edit: In Tulsa

[brentspeak]

113. Bull

In recent years, violent crime in every state in the nation -- CCW and non-CCW -- has decreased. Pro-CCW people give CCW credit for something that they have no reason to give credit to.

[SJames]

116. Would you care to

point out where the credit is due ???????

[brentspeak]

119. I have no idea where the credit is due.

Non-CCW states have been experiencing a drop in violent crime for some time. I can't explain that. But I can say that it has nothing to do with CCW (needless to say).

[SJames]

127. How can you say that

No facts , no story , bye - bye ...............

[brentspeak]

152. Uh, yeah

"Bye-bye" is right. It's pointless for me or for anyone else to engage in your logical fallacies. It's up to you to provide proof to us that CCW has reduced crime in CCW states; it's not my job to find reasons why crime has been reduced in states that don't have CCW.

Bye...

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Irreverend IX]

236. Really?

http://www.ohioccw.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3004&Itemid=67

http://emp.byui.edu/DavisR/202/ConcealedCarryPreventsViolentCrime.htm

The Lott and Mustard study detailed in the second link was the most extensive study comparing concealed carry to crime rates in history, and it concluded that shall-issue CCW causes dramatic decreases in crime rates.

[brentspeak]

239. The Lott and Mustard study? You've got to be kidding.

John Lott is completely discredited. The National Academy of Sciences, as well as many individual academics, have reviewed his work and dismissed it as shoddy scholarship. Lott's also the same weirdo who posted plaudits about his own research under the pseudonym of "Mary Rosh". This is what "Mary Rosh" had to say about John Lott:

"I had him for a PhD level empirical methods class when he taught at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania back in the early 1990s, well before he gained national attention, and I have to say that he was the best professor that I ever had. You wouldn't know that he was a 'right-wing' ideologue from the class. He argued both sides of different issues. He tore apart empirical work whether you thought that it might be right-wing or left-wing. At least at Wharton for graduate school or Stanford for undergraduate, Lott taught me more about analysis than any other professor that I had and I was not alone. There were a group of us students who would try to take any class that he taught. Lott finally had to tell us that it was best for us to try and take classes from other professors more to be exposed to other ways of teaching graduate material."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.the-west-wing/msg/bd20655b64200e42

That's John Lott, posting about John Lott, but posting as "Mary Rosh".

[Zynx]

62. I can't exactly see most students being able to handle a gun safely, let alone use it to stop this

The idea that average individuals who have never trained to shoot someone will just do it, and only hit the person, and only when they needed to, is a fantasy.

This is why a lot of women are cautioned against carrying/owning handguns unless they actually mean to learn to use them to stop an aggressive attack. A weapon you can't use is worse than useless.

[piedmont]

100. Most students wouldn't have to. It would only take a few.

1 out of 100 being proficient and carrying on a semi-regular basis would be better than 0 out of tens of thousands. Heck, just allowing profs to keep arms in their offices under lock and key would make it far more dificult for a shooter like today.

[Dr Fate]

258. Maybe so- perhaps we should limit concealed guns to the jocks and the student council...

...and OF COURSE all JROTC & ROTC units will have full access to the latest in campus survival equipment.

If it works out, other students could have their guns granted or taken based on a merit/demerit system.

[piedmont]

264. Or just do it the way it's done everywhere else-- if you want to carry,

and you meet the state qualifications, you can carry. What's so hard to understand about that?

[Dr Fate]

270. Fine by me. What business it is of the school admin if some kids want to bring in their guns?

So long as the fire arms are legal, and the kid is a solitary, quite type who doesnt seem to bother too many people, then what is the harm?

You might have a point- perhaps the teachers, coaches, principals, etc shouldnt play favorites, and just let everyone with a legal gun bring it- not just the ones with school spirit.

2 questions though- what about detention hall- can they still have their guns?

And what about gym class? I guess they can put it in the gym locker, or give it to someone else with NRA training to hold.

[piedmont]

274. That's the worst straw-man you've made so far.

I asked why not allow people who are CCW permit holders to carry in these so-called "gun-free zones" and you respond by equivocating that with allowing minors to bring guns to school? Do you even know what a CCW permit is?

[Dr Fate]

275. Why the hell does the gun have to be concealed in the 1st place? I want gunmen to SEE my gun.

If a would-be gunman SEES that I am carrying my double barrel or my sport utility rifle, he WILL stand down. I dont want to even leave room for guessing on his part. I'm here in class to LEARN, not play guessing games with other gunmen.

Also, children are fine with shotguns, rifles, etc. I fired and handled shotguns in Boy Scouts all the time.

We may disagree, but I feel that JROTC highschool kids, and the kids who hunt with their dads and who have NRA training should have protection- in the event that the armed Home Economics teacher, lunch lady or janitor gets shot first.

I'm not sure why you are asking me, but I think people should be able to bring whatever guns they want to class, concealed or not- so long as they are legal guns- and the NRA will see to it that they ARE legal guns.

Like I said, we have two choices- let the criminals and NRA members duke this out like real men, or stay home with the girls. Join in, or stay home.

[GreenTea]

74. Right & these same mororic rednecks would love to see ten of thousands of black students toting

their automatic weapons around their towns and on campus.....Right!

[scrinmaster]

96. Oh yeah, I can see college students being able to afford

full auto weapons. You do know how restricted and expensive they are, don't you? About $3000 at a minimum, with a $200 transfer tax stamp and a very thorough FBI background check.

[piedmont]

101. Nice strawman. nt

[The Count]

The Archie Bunker's recipee against hijackings: give all passengers a gun!

[dysfunctional press]

110. here's a link to the video on youtube...

the similarities to our own karlschneider are too coincidental for me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM

[Greyhound]

84. Apparently you missed the whole point of "Bowling for Columbine". n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

107. Bowling for Columbine is Moore's best documentary thus far IMO

Other civilized nations don't have a media that tells them to live in constant fear of their fellow citizens and while Canada and Western Europe's social programs aren't perfect, the social programs that we have in the United States are an absolute disgrace compared to theirs.

[Greyhound]

122. I agree completely, it is great by any definition.

But gun control is not what it is about.

[Zywiec]

87. Reminds me of the quote

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
- Robert A. Heinlein

[Popol Vuh]

90. owning guns saved me last night

You can read about it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x667901

[brentspeak]

117. A rifle in the home

Nothing wrong with that. I advocate it. But I think the major issue is how easily unqualified and unstable people manage to procure firearms (especially handguns).

[RedCappedBandit]

241. A rifle at home is different

from concealed handguns in public

[pingdashf]

248. Because?

Because crime only happens at home.

[Dr Fate]

260. Plus, if you are only allowed to protect your home, then you cant ever assist vigilantes.

If we are allowed to protect our homes and family with rifles, then we cleary should be allowed to go out to events and crowds and shoot or protect all kinds of other things with them.

[RedCappedBandit]

279. Please - I never inferred the issue was purely black and white

but if you can't see the difference between a rifle and a concealed handgun then you need to work on your ability to think objectively

[gravity]

91. I prefer a community of trust

over a community of fear. Guns have no place on campus.

This incident reminds everyone that we are all vulnerable to gun violence, but really there is nothing we can do to make us 100% safe ever. I rather take my chances with may safety, than living in a society where everyone is leaving in fear.

[SJames]

123. Shootings ran rampant in the 30's ,

40's , 50's and yes even the 60's . There was a gun culture on campus's back then . My granddad had a hunting and shooting club at his collage . Kept their guns in the dorm rooms .


Why blame the gun ?? Should we not blame the person who decides to do such a shame full thing ???

[Selatius]

94. Where the fuck where the on-campus police? Where was the regular police? SWAT?

This shooter struck twice. The second time was two hours after the first burst of gunfire.

Where in God's green earth were the police after the first hour??????

[Zynx]

95. Very good question. Armed suspect at large and no lockdown?? WTF.

[donco6]

144. Colleges generally don't have a mech. for a lockdown.

They normally don't even have intercoms in rooms.

[Selatius]

98. NO. The only people who should carry guns are those who are QUALIFIED to carry them.

If you want to qualify, then pass a criminal background check.

Pass a mental exam to prove you aren't prone to a bad temper or some mental illness.

Pass a certified gun education course that teaches you to properly store and handle these items.

If you can't do that, then YOU DON'T NEED A FUCKING GUN.

If campus police and college faculty passed the three prerequisites above, then I don't mind them carrying guns, but we don't want college students who may or may not be ignorant in the handling of firearms running around campus. That's a recipe for disaster.

[slackmaster]

170. Other than your "mental exam" requirement, you basically stated the VA CCW permit requirements

If you can't do that, then YOU DON'T NEED A FUCKING GUN.

By some miracle, I've managed to stay alive and healthy for almost 50 years without your help in determining what I need and do not need.

[WinkyDink]

267. You can do all that and still kill. The first murder is likely not expected.

And a "bad temper" means exactly what, in quantifiable terms?

[xchrom]

102. drunken hazing at frat parties would sure look different the day after.

[moondust]

104. Virginia loves guns.

Big gun-hugging state.

Maybe they'll pass some laws mandating gun ownership. Like Kennesaw, Georgia, and Greenleaf, Idaho. :shrug:

[Madspirit]

108. I Support....

I support gun ownership. I hate guns. I used to be totally anti-gun UNTIL I saw how backward this fucking country is. We go Carter, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Patriot Act, etc. We have a neo-Nazi for president, an evangelical nutcase. I support gun ownership simply because, for the first time in my life, I do not trust my government. I think of my government as my nemesis. We, unfortunately, are still Neanderthals and I don't see that changing. We go two steps forward, two back, two forward, two back. We aren't moving forward.

I was a total pacifist in the 60s and 70s. I thought things would really really change BUT THEY DIDN'T. WE DON'T MOVE FORWARD. WE JUST KEEP FLIP FLOPPING. We are a pathetic, war-like, cruel, sadistic, gun-loving, hate mongering species. I support gun ownership simply because I am afraid of my government, not because I love to fondle guns. I do not have one. If things go much more to the Right, I will get one because, keep in mind, I am also a lesbian. People seem to forget, they stuck us in ovens too. I do not trust my government. It makes me weep to hold this position. I HATE guns. ...but I'm not ending up in anybody's oven, even if I only used the gun to take myself out before that happened.
Lee

[Greyhound]

147. That fact that people like you feel the way you do is the biggest indictment of just how far we've

fallen. It's times like these that I feel there is no hope.

Peace.

[SJames]

151. Go blaze a fatty ,

calm down . Go for a walk . Take a deep breath ............its been a shitty Monday for everybody .

I dont think we are that far gone yet !!! :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

[Dr Fate]

109. College students need more body armor, advanced weaponry & combat training- Not more laws.

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. ROTC will gladly provide it

:-)

[Dr Fate]

176. We also need to lower the ages for gun permits- so that Middle & High School kids can have 'em.

School shootings arent just for people who are of age to own guns, ya know.

How else will they protect themselves?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

115. Well, it would open a lot of seats for enrollment and bankrupt the Insurance companys.

[blondeatlast]

124. If one VT student DIDN'T have a gun today this wouldn't have happened.

Sometimes, turning the tired talking points around is very easy to do.

[Sparkly]

130. VA... nt

[blondeatlast]

132. As in Virginia Tech... (nt)

[Sparkly]

133. Oh! Sorry!

I thought you were abbreviating "Vermont." :dunce:

[blondeatlast]

138. Edit: It's okay.

I edited because the smiley just didn't seem appropriate to the inspiration for this thread.

Weird day...

[SJames]

139. If one student did not have a

screw loose this would not have happened .

If all the cars in the nation had no tires today no one would be killed by a drunk driver .

[Sparkly]

141. Having a screw loose isn't something we can make illegal.

Cars have safety standards, registration, and licensing in order to use them.

[SJames]

148. I also

Have had over 100 background check's done on me to buy and carry a firearm ( not to mention drag 12 thousand gallons of fuel behind me ) .

Cars may have all those thing , BUT its the loose nut behind the wheel that point the damn thing .

It was ILLEGAL to have the gun on campus , a lot of good that did those poor kids .

[Sparkly]

129. Yeah. Automatic, no doubt. That'll work.

:mad:

[firefox_fan]

135. Yup, everybody should be entitled to carrying personal nukes too.

Just for personal defense. Man...

[gatorboy]

145. But! But cars are dangerous too!

:eyes:

Time to start pounding the Repug presidential candidates with firearm questions just to watch them squirm in front of the NRA.

[firefox_fan]

201. And dogs can bite too!

LOL

[Rosa Luxemburg]

154. no doubt the media will chew over this for weeks

diversion?

[orleans]

156. a caller on randi's show said something similar

saying that teachers & other school employees should be allowed to carry guns.

damn! i remember a few teachers who probably would have liked to shoot a few of the kids in jr. high and high school when i went there. lucky for us they *weren't* allowed to carry a fucking gun.

[Greyhound]

162. I went to several schools where teachers were allowed, and did, carry

guns, and in spite of our best provocations, not one of us was killed, or even wounded.

This idea of regulating and legislating based on the most extreme cases is just nuts and leads to no good.

[orleans]

164. teachers carried guns in a school? what state was this?

and no one worried about a teacher being overpowered by some students & taking the gun away?

i would not have put my daughter in a school where weapons were permitted--no matter who "carried" them.

[Greyhound]

263. Two of them, Colorado & Arizona.

At the Arizona school the fire-arms safety class was part of the 8th grade curriculum. Where, BTW, it has always been legal to carry in the open (not concealed).

No, nobody worried about any of that and nothing ever happened, I'm sure it's changed since then, but guns were just a part of life, (virtually) everybody had them and nobody ever thought anything about it.

All this paranoia about guns came from the coasts. I remember the first time I ever encountered it, we were in college and a couple of friends from NYC came over to study (Organic Chemistry I think), They arrived early and I had a couple of my pistols out, I'd just finished cleaning one and the other was disassembled in preparation for the same. They took two steps into my living room and just froze, terrified as if they'd just seen a cougar. Maria wouldn't even come in until I got them together and out of sight.

Guns are a tool and a hobby, nothing more. It is the people behind them that should concern you.

[murloc]

163. apparently a student DID carry a gun

And look what happened.

[piedmont]

178. He used it against people who DIDN'T have guns.

and look what happened.

[Dr Fate]

183. Exactly- that's why we need to let elementary, middle & High School students pack heat too.

Imagine how much less violent schools across the nation would be if we just let ALL hormone addled boys pack heat.

Or, if that is too radicial for those knee-jerk Liberals, we could always require intense combat training for at least the staff- including the lunch-room staff and the janitor- not just the chemistry teacher or the Home Ec. lady.

[piedmont]

209. Bull shit.

Allowing the students, faculty and staff who were concealed handgun permit holders to carry their weapons as they would in any other part of town would have presented this attacker with a population of equally armed obstacles, instead of a bunch of TOTALLY powerless targets. The requirements of the CHP are:
you must be over 21
you must have recieved one of several different specified types of firearms training
you must not have beed convicted of a felony.

got any more straw?

[Dr Fate]

212. I think Kevlar, helmets and proper combat foot wear would have been helpful as well.

Not to mention urban combat training and some type of gas pellets.

"Shall We Fight In the Streets" should be required reading for all Home Economics and Biology teachers.

I'm not so sure well trained, under 21 students shouldnt be able to protect themselves too though- what if Mrs. Applebaum is the only gun-toting over-21 year old in the classroom, and she gets shot first?

[piedmont]

215. Hey, wear it if you've got it and want to use it. Britain is a "gun-free zone" too...

And look what they're resorting to: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1552956.ece

[Dr Fate]

216. Perhaps the NRA and us other gun absolutists should donate more kevlar to school children.

Seeing as how bullet proof vests are the only choice for survival for child who is under 21, once Coach Sherman looses the quick-draw with Harris & Klebold, that is.

Seems to be the best way to balance all this out, no? If we wont let kids arm themselves against other child gunmen like we want the college kids to do, we should at least set up a system to provide them with armor, helmets, survival training, etc.

[piedmont]

221. Set up whatever flimsy strawman you want

I'm in favor of allowing licensed CCW permit holders to carry in school as in the rest of the community. Your only solution offered so far is make everyone a defenseless target.

[Dr Fate]

225. I'm not setting up strawman- I'm agreeing with arming students and teachers to the teeth.

But I'm also for giving them full body armor, helmets and door-to-door combat/survival training.

Armed guards in the classroom, should the teacher be shot 1st will also be necessary- and it will make learning easier, since no one will have to think about ever being shot.

It's the ONLY solution there is is without ruffling the feathers of our gun lobby- MORE guns, more gun culture and more para-militarism.

[piedmont]

227. Okie-dokie, then.

[Dr Fate]

229. We need "Quick-draw" classes too. Today proves there is not enough over-all gun culture in academia.

You have to be QUICK in an old-fashoined shoot out, especially if your left your kevlar vest in your gym locker.

[piedmont]

230. Better yet, let's just create a lock-down society

In order to prolong each and every life as long as possible, we'll remove every possible threat. Guns and knives and other dangerous tools will be eliminated (by magic, since prohibition doesn't seem to work). The government can chop our veggies (since we won't have knives) and patrol our streets every 5 minutes. Perhaps one day we'll each have our own padded cell so we won't have to interact with potential dangers like bees or cars or other people. Utopia will be fun!

[Dr Fate]

232. Exactly- the people who could care less about owning combat weaponry should bear the brunt of this.

Let's not go after the noble, well-funded patriots at the NRA, lets encourage everyone else to learn how to love & use their OWN concealed guns. Or, at the least, to wear kevlar vests, armor their cars, etc.

If they refuse to join our militaristic gun culture by arming & protecting themselves with the available technology, then they need not complain to me when they have to through metal detectors and strip searches, camera survailance, etc. everytime they go to campus, a ball game or to the mall. We tried to arm everyone- but NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!.

If they had listened to us and all gotten concealed weapons it never would have gotten that far.

Yes- bullet proof vests, helmets, survival training, armed students, janitors, lunch-ladies and professors-we must do all we can to para-militarize our population and assimilate them into our beloved gun culture.

It's either that or a lock-down, complete with survaillance cameras and strip searches- the choice is theirs.

If these gun-wimps refuse to "get with it", then it's THEIR fault if they get shot or have to live their lives like they are under constant air-port security.

[piedmont]

278. predictable use of reductio ad absurdem is boring-- find some other shtick. nt

[Deja Q]

167. Except wasn't that a student who did carry a gun - then use it?

:dunce:

[slackmaster]

172. I wouldn't want to rush to judgement until all the facts are in

But the smart money says the shooter didn't have a permit to carry a gun.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he was legally disqualified from having one at all.

[Dr Fate]

234. I for one will be relieved if he did NOT have a permit. I'm sure the parents of the dead will too.

Whether the NRA lobbied for it to be legally purchased and owned by someone or another makes all the difference when your child is gunned down.

The question on every greiving parent's mind should not be "why did folks lobby to have this type of gun so easily available in the first place?" but "did he have a permit or not?"

Besides, if they want to complain, they should have ARMED their kids- or joined the NRA in fighting for making MORE guns allowed on campus. Oh well- lesson learned.

[treestar]

168. The Right Wing says this every time something like this happens

Every. Damn. Time.

Luby's Cafeteria, the McDonald's shooting. They truly believe that one person would have stood up and shot the shooter right through the head.

[slackmaster]

173. Just as predictably, knee-jerk gun ban promoters will call for another ban

:eyes:

[treestar]

231. And there is already a ban, too

If this campus is a gun free zone, then how did the shooter get onto it? They must not have metal detectors. I could see where that would be impossible for a campus, but how do they plan on enforcing it? Just by catching people? So they add that to the list of charges, which in this case, would be ludicrous if it weren't tragic.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

180. Yeah - lets put guns in the hands of students like the shooter - we can have 10 to 20 shooters.

The students can pull them out and shoot people when they get in a fight or get angry with someone. OR they can shoot off their gun in a panic and hit the wrong person. Most people completely panic in an emergency.

THAT'S the ticket.

[Dr Fate]

185. No-no-no- they will have full combat training, plus kevlar and helmets.

Stop being such a knee-jerk/nanny/worry wart!!!

Campus kids need more body armor, advanced weaponry and combat training, not more laws!!!

[donco6]

193. Or they can shoot them during riots.

We're very familiar with those here in Boulder area.

I'm sure they'd be very careful.

[Dr Fate]

219. No, no, no- you shoot at those guys in the crowd too.

If someone starts shooting people at a crowded riot, several other people with training will just start shooting at that person until they hit him and he goes down.

Hopefully, most innocent people would be smart enough to be wearing kevlar to begin with.

You are making it seem worse than it is.

[donco6]

222. Thanks for the correction.

Silly me!

[Colobo]

186. University campuses lack security

How come anyone can walk in to a hall or a classroom with a gun?

Actually, that was one of the things I noticed during my first semester in college in Fall 01 (9/11).

[Reverend_Smitty]

226. I don't think I would have wanted to go to a college that had armed guards and metal detectors...

at every entrance. This is no doubt a tragic event but both knee jerk arguments of arming everyone or being frisked for firearms before entering a classroom or dining hall are both really dangerous ideas. Anyone can walk into a shopping mall or subway station and start shooting people, I'm certainly not willing to trade my liberties to live in a police state on the oft chance that a deranged individual might start shooting people. This is a tragic event, no doubt, but it is a rare event. I think the most important thing we can take out of things like the VT shooting and Columbine is not to treat all students like violent criminals but rather recognize the behavior of the individuals who perpetrate these crimes before they happen.

[Dr Fate]

233. Sorry- either you live under lock down or arm YOURSELF to the teeth. You cant fight the NRA.

Sorry, but you either have to live under a 27/7 lock down, or arm yourself to the teeth like a good NRA member does- there are no other alternatives.

[Bucky]

189. Guns don't kill people...

...it's those little bullets they shoot.

[Colobo]

190. Guns don't kill, people do by using them.

I don't fear guns, I fear the people handling them.

[Dr Fate]

199. Exactly- guns dont gun people down- gunmen obtain the guns- THEN they gun people down with them.

I wish everyone here could get that straight.

[mtnsnake]

202. Fox radio? Check out this post right from DU of someone who thinks students should be armed

Check out post #11 in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3219056#3219098

[Ilsa]

235. Gun nuts started calling in on AAR programs today.

I heard one of them call in on the Ed Schultz Show around 12:30 and another call Randi Rhodes around 2:40, both CDT, BTW, and I get Schultz and Rhodes via the Austin "AAR" station.

They both were belligerent, hysterical, and rude men. Randi handled her caller the best, though.

[WinkyDink]

242. One student DID apparently have a gun. That's why 32 are dead.

More guns would mean fewer deaths in society? I don't think so.

[Alexander]

250. And if one of the 32 had shot him to death?

Then it wouldn't have been 32 victims, now would it?

[Dr Fate]

253. Finally someone who gets it. THE VICTIMS should have been armed. It's THEIR FAULT.

They should have at least thought to wear some body armor if they were too stupid not to be a part of the NRA's gun culture.

Didnt those idiots know that the NRA offers training??????

YES! If those students had their priorities straight, they would have joined the NRA YEARS ago and fought for their right to turn their college campus into an urban combat zone whenever the need arises to do so.

It is clear that a para-militaristic gun-culture needs to be a dominant part of campus life as well as academia in general.

That seems to be the only choice, since according to Chuck Heston, guns need to be available to us for the next civil war.

When are folks going to realize that the NRA only allows for two scenarios- STAY HOME or ARM YOURSELF!!!!

Which will YOU choose, dear reader?

[nemo137]

255. I shouldn't have to carry a goddamn gun to lecture.

Isn't part of living in a civil society the idea that there's a certain social contract where we deal with eachother in civilized ways, and there's a monopoly on the use of force?

And beyond that, why in God's name should I be forced to go armed for war whenever I leave my house?

[Dr Fate]

256. You have two choices: #1- arm yourself and get proper NRA or paramilitary training-

Or-

2. Stay at home and let us real men handle this.

Me? The Liberals wont let me go to school, the mall, church or to ball games with my holsters on, so I mostly hang out in the woods with other dudes and play war-games and shit.

[LeftishBrit]

261. Oh yes, and how long would it take before a few drunk students shot each other...

or someone used a gun to intimidate their lecturer into giving them a higher grade...

or, most likely of all, some criminals got in by impersonating students with the 'right to carry guns' and mayhem resulted.

It would just escalate the problem. And students in other countries manage to survive without carrying guns - it sounds like a 'solution' born of panic.

[Dr Fate]

262. Collateral damage. No one said this war would be easy.

The best thing we can do is to arm our troops-I mean students- with the finest equipment and training that Uncle Sam can provide!!!!

[Xenotime]

265. If students carry guns, there will be bloodbaths all over the US

[Dr Fate]

277. Well, war is hell. No one said freedom is free. Support the troops- er- I mean students!!!

!!!!

[Xenotime]

266. Should Amish school girls be allowed to carry guns too?

[cgrindley]

268. Professors should certainly be allowed to carry

It would not have made anything worse yesterday.

[Dr Fate]

272. Exactly. The only way it could have been worse is if some other armed teacher shot the professor.

...Some knuckle head teacher WITHOUT a permit and proper NRA training of course- might shoot the good professor thinking that HE was the gunman as he stalked around campus looking for the real killer.

But that could easily have been avoided with proper NRA gun safety classes- which I am assuming the schools would provide in these scenarios.

[springhill]

269. If students were allowed to carry guns..........

I wouldn't send my child to college. Period.

[WinkyDink]

273. But I might not have lived to see my teacher's pension!

[Dr Fate]

276. That's a strawman. Obviously you would have to learn to shoot the errant student before he shot you.

The NRA will be providing "quick draw" classes for such inevitable, unavoidable scenarios.

Plus, a bold stand like this would do wonders for general class disipline after the smoke settles.