ACORN was one of the few organizations on the side of the consumers, debtors

[Nikki Stone1]

That's why the free market capitalists needed to get rid of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaFIDPPO0KM&feature=PlayList&p=1CE79208D8BA6C4C&index=7&playnext=8&playnext_from=PL

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaFIDPPO0KM&feature=PlayList&p=1CE79208D8BA6C4C&index=7&playnext=8&playnext_from=PL

(Acorn talks about subprime lending in 2008. Go to two minutes into the video.)

[Nikki Stone1]

1. Kick

:kick:

[MrModerate]

2. If Acorn dies, it'll be largely self-inflicted. In today's savage climate . . .

You can't behave that irresponsibly and survive.

Unless, of course, you're a republican congressperson or TV personality. They have get-out-of-asylum-free cards.

[kickysnana]

3. Why do you hate America? n/t

[KharmaTrain]

5. And You Believe A Right Wing Hit Video?

I'm reserving judgement about being "irresponsible" until I see the "dry" video...not a bunch of sensational bits edited together by a right wing Michael Moore wannabe. I'm hoping there's a real investigation here...I have far more faith in ACORN than I do for some punk kid with an agenda.

The big reason the rushpublicans want ACORN out of the way is their on-going efforts of voter suppression. They know with ACORN and other groups registering minorities they don't stand a chance of winning nationally. This is a deliberate smear job that sadly too many have bought the story without looking inside the book.

[MrModerate]

7. I believe that four of their offices played into this joker's hands . . .

Instead of showing him the door right away. And this in an environment where they *must* know that all sorts of wingnut operations are gunning for them. And they played the fool. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

It also doesn't speak very well of their leadership that the word hadn't gotten down to the locals to be alert to such tactics.

[Hannah Bell]

15. you believe the wingers, iow.

[MrModerate]

16. I don't believe the tapes were made through CGI, if that's what you mean.

The Acorn people said what they said, and regardless of disadvantageous editing, they handed the jerk plenty of material to manipulate. The smart thing would be to have shown him the door within seconds of his arrival which -- according to their CEO -- is what most other Acorn offices he tried this con on did.

[Hannah Bell]

20. i don't know what you mean by cgi. & so far as i know, being naive isn't criminal,

but filming people without their permission & editing the results to slander them is.

[MrModerate]

27. Sorry. I should never throw out an unexplained acronym.

CGI: Computer Generated Imagery.

And you're right. Filming people without permission is probably one offense and slander a second. While I think they can ding what's'isname on the first, the second is going to be very hard to prove. He could maintain -- with some likelihood of being believed -- that they were completely sincere, so no slader has occurred.

My point being, Acorn has been under siege for years, and got pressed into the front lines when Obama emerged. They had to have known that someone (several someones) would be gunning for them. It's management's responsibility to 1) ensure the hiring of people with enough wisdom to (hopefully) not fall for -- or even play along with -- this sort of con, and 2) equip those people with warnings and guidelines so there's an even better chance of avoiding such a massive, reputation-destroying gaffe.

Acorn's management has failed spectacularly in this case.

[KharmaTrain]

37. Let's Look At It This Way...

Looking at this "filmmaker"...Had he walked into my office with his "ho", I would have laughed him out the door. Trust me, the last thing I would be thinking is this slimebag not only had a camera running but had someone (faux) willing to air it. Yes, watching the "tape" the way this douchenozzle put together it's damning, but again, I hold reservations until or if I ever get to see or read transcripts of the dry video, not what the wingnuts want to you see or believe.

Yep, they played the fool cause they thought they were dealing with a fool. Now there was no paperwork filed...no mortgages assisted with or any other services proffered. Now if ACORN had actually try to help these loser, then, yes, there are problems their leadership needs to deal with...but I don't see any evidence they did anything but let them play their scam.

I own a business with far less people than ACORN and I can't say I know who does what and where all the time. You trust people and hope to have safeguards in place to prevent abuses or fraud. From all I've seen, the only fraud involved here were two young rushpublicans with stars in their eyes.

Be assured that this hit squad will be back out there again...and my hopes are their little frat party is ruined in the near future. They're too cocky and let's see who acts irresponsibly.

[MrModerate]

44. I fault management because they had to know they were in the wingnuts' cross-hairs . . .

And yet their people fell for this clumsy ruse and handed the no-opposable-thumb set an endless supply of cracker crack to dose themselves with.

Of course you can't know what your people are doing every moment, and you're always at risk that someone in your organization will make a poor decision. But *what* a poor decision! And four offices?

There needed to be memos to local management of every office warning them to alert their people to expect any sort of attack.

If management did so, it didn't work. If they didn't do so, shame on them.

[HughMoran]

6. Except only 2% of their funding is from the Feds

I hardly think they're in trouble.

[TxRider]

39. I thought they said 40 percent

Of course no funding has actually been cut yet, and may not be.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beaverhausen]

11. oh look what we have here - a live one

Those amateurs were trained at the Rove school of political hit jobs. But the truth about them will come out soon enough.

Why haven't they gone on any networks besides Fox? Do they have something to hide?

[MrModerate]

12. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. n/t

[CaliforniaPeggy]

17. I don't know what surveys you're reading.

But the ones I've seen show his numbers are holding very steadily and well.

Enjoy your stay.

[Dystopian]

22. Welcome to DU

:hi:
I see that you joined on the hoo hah.
For you, there is but one way out.

peace~

[EFerrari]

25. Why do you people even bother? You only make yourself look pathetic and ridiculous.

[Orsino]

38. Watching Fox makes one stupid.

Even profoundly corrupt.

[Hannah Bell]

14. and we know the org behaves "irresponsibly" because? nothing like

rush to judgment based on questionable videos funded by behind-the-scenes actors.

[MrModerate]

18. If you're fighting to the death and your opponent is running out of bullets . . .

Don't toss him a handful of ammunition.

At least one of the participants has acknowledged that she was goofing with the guy, playing along to see how far he would go. That's irresponsible.

[Hannah Bell]

19. you don't know they did. one thing i've learned in life: anyone can be made to

look guilty if someone has the money, power & will to do it.

*anyone*.

[MrModerate]

21. I've seen the videos. Steven Spielberg maybe could have mocked up . . .

That footage from scratch, I suppose. But it's much more likely -- and at least one Acorn person has admitted -- that they said what they said (regardless of how it's made to look worse through editing), supposedly because they were playing along to see how far the guy would go.

And they were fired, which wouldn't have been the expected outcome if they hadn't somehow put their tails in a crack.

If you want to believe it's entirely fake, feel free, but that seems highly unlikely to me. How do you feel about the Apollo moon landings?

[Hannah Bell]

23. How do you feel about a political process run by covert ops & witch-hunting?

Maybe you're the type who runs from bullies.

[MrModerate]

24. I think it's standard 'Lican practice.

It's deplorable. It contributes to the coarsening of the public discourse. It's unfair and unAmerican.

But it doesn't mean that when our side opens itself up for a sucker punch, we're not going to get decked.

Have I said anything previously in this thread that's been inconsistent with that?

[Hannah Bell]

26. your choice to blame acorn & concede is pretty consistent, yes.

[MrModerate]

29. OK, I'm giving up on you.

You really need to listen better.

[Hannah Bell]

30. i listen just as well as you do. i simply disagree with you.

i don't believe in rolling over for bullies.

[MrModerate]

32. Call me a glutton for punishment, but I'll give it one more shot.

Acorn's reputation has been ruined. Non-political junkies will not delve into the details. All they will take away from this scandal is "Acorn = crooks."

It didn't have to happen.

According to Acorn's CEO, most of the offices targeted by this creep threw him out the door because they recognised immediately he was a fraud. In four offices, however, they either didn't recognise he was a fraud and still played along, or suspected he was not quite right and played along anyway. And played along in ways that were very very very easy to misrepresent.

That was foolish. And the employees have been fired.

I don't think it's "rolling over" when you acknowledge that not doing stupid things is important when you're under attack.

In today's climate, doing good works is not enough. There are genuinely evil people out there and they will take us down if we screw up. Acorn screwed up. Admitting that -- and learning from it -- shouldn't be interpreted as disloyalty.

[Hannah Bell]

33. no, what was foolish/shameful was the Dems rolling over & voting to defund within days

instead of challenging the filmmakers & their sponsors.

I understand you perfectly well. I disagree with your background assumptions & your spin.

[MrModerate]

34. Aha! A point of strong agreement. Congressional Dems are (often) spineless . . .

And this is yet another example.

The smart thing to do, the honorable thing to do, IMO, would be to say: "These are very troubling videos. Troubling in that they were fraudulently obtained and disingenously edited, but also troubling that Acorn employees would say such things to a person representing themselves as a professional criminal. This should be investigated and any genuine illegal acts prosecuted."

I think, however that I disagree with you about what "spin" means. I don't think I've spun the story at all. I think I've acknowledged O'Keefe's dishonesty and wickedness while pointing out that handing such people the rope to hang you with is stupid. That's not spin, that's realism.

[Hannah Bell]

35. No, the smart thing to do would be to point out the high-level backers of O'Keefe's sting,

point out the initial story of him being some independent young crusader = bullshit,
point out the illegality of filming someone without their knowledge or consent,
point out the illogic (& hypocrisy, Congress) of destroying an entire organization over the actions of a few low-level employees,
then ask for independent examination of the tapes.

[MrModerate]

36. Let's be real . . .

You couldn't let the Acorn employees' statements go uncommented.

All the other points you raise have been discussed widely in the blogosphere and even in the mainstream news. And frankly, rescinding their funding wasn't a death blow -- the death blow is the reputational damage they're taking right now.

[Chan790]

40. No, that's absolutely the wrong approach.

That sounds like and will come across to the public as attacking the source of the compromising information rather than defending the behavior...if you can't defend the behavior (and you cannot in this case), you've got to take definitive action. This was probably the wrong definitive action because when this dipshit fucks up (oh and he will), we'll get egg on our faces doubly because itll look like we acted hastily. The perfect response to any crisis is "This is a serious accusation and deserves a full investigation." Investigation is not action and it buys you time.

You cannot win a situation like this by "attacking the source" though. You simply can't. It reads as making excuses and it looks like you're trying to smear a whistleblower. If anything, the most effective approach (if your goal is to refute his allegation and discredit his evidence) is to hype them up, laud and praise them, keep them prominent (frustrating as that is). Scum hates the spotlight and inevitably destroys itself...give them enough attention and rope and they hang themselves in plain view of the public and media, destroying their own credibility. Once they've destroyed themselves, you're free to question the fruit of the poisoned tree.

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. And they were registering democrats.

[HillbillyBob]

8. Yes and they help the poor, thats a deadly sin as far as the rpukes go.

God forbid you help the poor, don't you know they are poor because they are irresponsible and want to be there.
A handful of corrupt and smart asses, when at least half the pukes are as crooked as a snake..
It is sickening, they have a few corrupt individuals who will be looking for jobs.
As far as I can tell the puling whiners and screamers are the irresponsible, greedy, selfish, and corrupt as hell asses. They are the ones that are now screaming including that a dickie burr that the fed taking over student financing is wrong that it will kill competition.

From my point of view, they have piratized the studend loan system.
When I got put out of the navy for being a fag, it was some how my fault that they were snooping in through my bedroom window. I was an almost fully trained(just needed some experience) when I got out runnawaygun (who did not servie in ww2) wanted every queer out of the service and out of all fed jobs.
I could not get a civilian job in ATC when I got out of the Navy.
So I had to either go to nazibama kreestian academy and learn to be a kkkresstian nazi and work behind a pulpit, I wanted to be an architect not a thief who preaches.
That was my ONLY chance at further education err indoctrination or take a loan that was backed by the fed, but was actually through a commercial bank at 19% interest.
I got caught smoking cigs...
If the education loans was actually administered by the fed I might have been able to afford to go back to a real school. Instead I had to take on multiple shit 2 or 3 at a time when I should have been able to go to votec and get more education in some other low payin brainless job at McDs. I did eventually get a job as an electricians helper at just 25cents hr over minimum wage and take part time minimum wage as a second job.

[BlooInBloo]

10. It still is.

[Nikki Stone1]

13. I hope they manage to survive

.

[EFerrari]

28. This whole thing is sickening. By the time we find out who orchestrated this

and how fake it is, the damage will be done. At least the real progressives in the House and Senate voted against the defunding. The same good names we can always count on.

[Nikki Stone1]

41. Feingold?

Kucinich?

[EFerrari]

45. Woolsey, Nadler, Wexler, McDermott. I don't have the list

in front of me right now and all hell is about to break loose in Honduras this morning. But I'll find it and post or pm it. :hi:

House:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6572796

Senate:
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State


Grouped By Vote Position YEAs ---83
Akaka (D-HI)
Alexander (R-TN)
Barrasso (R-WY)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Begich (D-AK)
Bennet (D-CO)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Bond (R-MO)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Carper (D-DE)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Cochran (R-MS)
Collins (R-ME)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corker (R-TN)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Franken (D-MN)
Grassley (R-IA)
Hagan (D-NC)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hatch (R-UT)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Johanns (R-NE)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kaufman (D-DE)
Kerry (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kohl (D-WI)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
LeMieux (R-FL)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (ID-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lugar (R-IN)
McCaskill (D-MO)
McConnell (R-KY)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Merkley (D-OR)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Risch (R-ID)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Schumer (D-NY)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shaheen (D-NH)
Shelby (R-AL)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (D-PA)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Tester (D-MT)
Thune (R-SD)
Udall (D-CO)
Udall (D-NM)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (D-VA)
Webb (D-VA)
Wicker (R-MS)
Wyden (D-OR)

NAYs ---7
Burris (D-IL)
Casey (D-PA)
Durbin (D-IL)
Gillibrand (D-NY)
Leahy (D-VT)
Sanders (I-VT)
Whitehouse (D-RI)

Not Voting - 9
Burr (R-NC)
Byrd (D-WV)
Coburn (R-OK)
Graham (R-SC)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hutchison (R-TX)
McCain (R-AZ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Vitter (R-LA)

[cadmium]

46. Not opposing the amendment strongly was he sin

Are these votes for the amendment or are they votes for the final budget? The votes for the final budget (which included the amendment) I think are more forgivable.

[democracy1st]

31. K & R

[underpants]

42. Very informative video. Thanks

rec'd

[Nikki Stone1]

43. Thanks. Lest we forget how important this organization is

....