France proves socialized medicine too expensive

[buzzycrumbhunger]

Oh, noes! France to increase cost of one night in the hospital by 25%!

Yup:

It's apparently a huge controversy. My Parisian doctor was telling me about it the other day. You see, this is the land of "socialized medicine," and it's gotten so expensive for the government to support that whole single-payer thing that the French govt. is now having to raise the prices for consumers. And boy are people hopping mad. They're talking about raising the price you have to pay for a one night hospital stay by 25%.

Yup.

A night in a French hospital is going to go up from $23.50 a night to $29.40 a night.

I don't know why this wasn't front-page news here. Such hard facts would surely allow us to drop all this silliness about single-payer and public options and on to more important things, right?

[d_b]

1. $29.40?!

good LAWDY

[Mari333]

2. Thats the price of ONE aspirin in a US hospital

[gateley]

17. Maybe in 1987 it was the cost of one aspirin - now I think there's a comma in the figure. nt

[libertypirate]

89. That was about what

some topical lidacane (sp) applied with a q-tip to a gash on my daughter's scalp (so they could put one staple in) cost. Ridiculous isn't it? Don't even ask what the whole bill was. You know we got taken because we are uninsured and therefore forced into the getting screwed category.

[Libertas1776]

3. "Mon dieu. C'est un scandale!!!"

Oh, those poor Peuple Français, how will they ever survive :sarcasm:

[aronbehar]

4. We should be so lucky

Our entire system sux

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. Wow... that's the price for the ink you use to sign in!!!1111!!! n/t

Here I mean.

[BlooInBloo]

6. BWAHAHAAHAAA!!!!

[LostInAnomie]

7. That's roughly 1/20th of the price of an ambulance ride to the hospital here.

[msanthrope]

40. 900 dollars here in the City of Brotherly Love....

Had an asthma attack, had to go, and got the bill. Then fought with Blue Cross. They paid it, after it went to collection.

[tridim]

8. That's cheaper than the holistic healer George Constanza went too.

First visit, 38 bucks.

Crampbark AND couchgrass?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. I dub the term "Wealthcare" cuz when you do the math and country

by country comparisons... that truly is what it is.

[JBoy]

20. "I'm an eggplant!"

[Iggo]

26. I am the walrus.

Goo-goo-ga-joob.

[Lochloosa]

39. You can't have both. You can do the "I am the walrus"

but leave the Goo-goo-ga=joob for the next person.

:evilgrin:

[Iggo]

60. Ah, of course!

I'll do better next time.

:patriot:

[uppityperson]

9. k&r

[Canuckistanian]

11. Sacré bleu!

It is enough to make one cry in one's Beaujolais Nouveau!

[laughingliberal]

12. kick nt

[patrice]

13. So is Fraking War-Slavery!!!

[slipslidingaway]

14. knr - from the comment section and so true...

"Number One? Not when even Zambia can provide free medical care to its citizens. They have few doctors, so they've fielded trained medical technicians to handle most of the hands-on stuff.

The thing that I find appallingly stupid about this whole US health care debate is that everyone is trying to figure out a way to make the old system of corporate healthcare and insurance work.

Approach this from the standpoint of "how do we keep everyone healthy?" and the picture changes a lot."

[kestrel91316]

74. Keeping people healthy produces unacceptably low profits, so it's unAmerican.

[slipslidingaway]

84. Sad... but true. :( n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. Right!

Actually, I think publishing the prices for health care in European countries would be an eye opener.

[Enthusiast]

16. Cheaper than a night's stay in a motel here. nt

[pokercat999]

37. Hell, my "FREE" rooms in a casino cost more than that with

state and local taxes.

[Selatius]

18. Even the dirt cheap motels charge more for one night than that, and that's with the cockroaches. nt

[Festivito]

19. Can't use this. The people I need to reach won't believe this.

Not without some supporting information. Unfortunate.

[SOS]

21. Link

20 Euros a night:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5863CN20090907

[Festivito]

38. Is this a co-pay, additional night charge? Can't talk about it.

Frustrating.

Thanks for the link though.

[Aragorn]

41. it's co-pay

by whatever name used. Which reminds me of a medical joke. Quickly: Couple goes to doctor and asks him to observe them having sex. After several repeat visits the doc finally asks why they are worried - everything seems fine. They say they are both married to someone else, and a motel is $60 but their co-pay is only $30.

[Festivito]

67. Thanks. And thanks for the joke.

Interesting.

At least that leaves amount in some context.

Merci beau coup (however spelled)

[Lagomorph]

22. I wish we enjoyed a huge trade surplus...

...that helps all these other counties fund their health care. The US consumer is already indirectly paying a considerable portion of the world's health care.

France's trade surplus with the US, for the last ten years runs around $111,403,000,000. While it isn't a huge amount, per-capita, it's money coming in, rather than going out.

[wolfgangmo]

50. And why do they have a trade surplus?

Because they still MAKE THINGS.

[Fedja]

71. You see....

Frances trade surplus "with the US" is irrelevant in terms of healthcare budget. Also, my country has a trade DEFICIT, and you wanna know what my overnight hospital stay costs? $0,00

Actually, over here, we call it 0.00 EUR. Pretty much the same tho.

[Lagomorph]

79. In any event, Americas's financial house is not in order...

Since our manufacturing base was moved offshore, we're in the same position and many third world countries. All we have to offer is our natural resources.

The world is up to their asses in dollars and they won't buy what they used to. Our future obligations are unsustainable.

I simply can't see a scenario where we can create anything more without sacrificing some of what we have.

We don't really know if the current models for national health care programs will scale up effectively.

With current government programs, costs tend to escalate exponentially, rather than linearly, when scaling up.

[Fedja]

80. Stockholm syndrome if ever I saw one :)

Here's an idea on where the financial model is failing:
- private doctor salaries are bizzarely high
- insurance companies are an INDUSTRY skimming money off the system.

Speaking of the 1st point, this is the people's fault. Everyone is so paranoid that they think a surgery by a $10.000 doctor is better than one from a $3.000 doctor. The price is a self-perpetuating curse.

Secondly... Every dollar you pay for insurance that doesn't end up in a doctor's hands is a dollar lost. Look at the biggest insurance companies, their balance sheets, and see where the system is leaking.

[Lagomorph]

85. So we should just plunge ahead...

...with our defensive medicine model? Many doctors pay more for malpractice insurance than they take home. Unless we do something about that, we'll be paying very high prices for our coverage. We have a lot of legal, financial and administrative work to do before we can make a system as affordable as a European system. Getting what we need, put in place is no shoe-in. Some of the people promoting health care are the same people who will be raping it when it shows up.

[Overseas]

23. K&R. I do declare. 25% increase. Well well well.

I can actually imagine Foxified news carrying the story but omitting the crucial details about what price is going up, from what to what.

Because in addition to the "all views, no news" stories, Foxified reporters can use the "just facts, no context" angles.

Socialized Medicine means Long Lines.
British cancer survival rates are shorter than ours.
Canadians come to the USA for health care.
etc.

[dipsydoodle]

24. Costs sweet fuck all in the UK

It's called the NHS. Having said that any changes here are done by adjusting the national NHS <tax> rates paybable by both employees and employers.

[dmr]

25. Ya know, for a nation that has such a high opinion of ourselves,

you'd think we would be the one with the $29.40 per night hospital stays.

:shrug:

It's embarrassing too many Americans fight against their own family and self interest.

[buzzycrumbhunger]

29. I think you've hit upon the crux of the matter

Apparently, to be "republican," "conservative," or whateverthefuck they want to call themselves, it all seems to boil down to the fact that to be such willing pawns of the people holding the strings, they have to first have a fundamental screw loose--a disconnect where they think "I've got mine" is the center of the universe.

They've lost the ability to see we're all interconnected and interdependent. It's what comes of too many years of Jerry Springer, Survivor, No Child Left Behind, and everything else that's elevated our baser instincts and devalued anything "intellectual" or evolutionary as laughable.

With each successive Bush term, I started having this fantasy where some hunky, kilted brute would whisk me off to the Highlands and I could pretend I was never from here. I find it really sad that on the advent of an era that should totally reward us for hanging in here, I feel closer to acting upon that than ever before. If they screw this up for us, this country is finished. After growing up in the Midwest, I swore I'd never do winters again, but damnitall, I'm past my prime years for snagging a sugar daddy and would entertain anywhere progressive, even if that meant Canada year round.

The fact that we even have to argue about this is obscene and may well signal we're too far gone. :(

[dmr]

30. What I don't get about the 'I got mine' mentality

is they'd rather give their 'mine' over to the wealthy to make them even wealthier than help their neighbor down the street, or even to help themselves.

BTW, I wouldn't mind having a hunky, kilted brute whisk me off to the Highlands, either.

Ah, such a fantasy for an old lady ......

< sigh >

[buzzycrumbhunger]

32. Yes, the irony is that

. . . the "I got mine" people are too stupid to see by "mine" they mean the healthcare and insurance industries and the politicians who suckle at their teats. The lousy state of education in this country is not geared toward developing critical thinking skills or smarts in general--it's geared toward churning out drones who happily do whatever they're told for the benefit of the few. Money isn't the only thing some people would like to see reserved for the privileged few.



OT: I have a friend who went through menopause and claims this is the height of a woman's sexual peak. What we lack in physical appeal, we more than compensate for in technique and enthusiasm. Whilst that particular milestone isn't something I'm looking forward to, it apparently has its perks. Don't count out the fantasy prematurely. ;)

[dmr]

33. :)

:)

[dotymed]

34. I'm with you.

I'm a male with two children (20& 13) and an ex-wife. I
find myself waiting and wondering if, when my 13 y.o. is in
college (exorbitant fee's, luckily my daughter got a
"full ride" scholarship)they can get along without
me. I want to become an ex-pat in a progressive country.
Someplace where people are treated equally and fairly. No more
RW'ers for life.

[dotymed]

35. I'd probably look like a real Dork

in a kilt.lol...

[buzzycrumbhunger]

46. Trust me--no man does

Guaranteed arse-grabbers. I suspect most women find them irresistible, and they work for everything casual to dressy. Just saying, that's all. :)

[kestrel91316]

75. Interconnectedness = COMMUNISM!!!1!!11! to the RW nitwits

[Fedja]

72. Honestly...

If they made me pay 30 bucks for anything, I'd raise a ruckus that would topple a health official or two. Most EU countries insist that paying anything for care is immoral and wrong. We're taxed and covered, that's all there is to it. Money need not exchange hands at all when it comes to treatment.

[Lucy Goosey]

27. And if France is like Canada, many people have supplemental insurance ...

so they don't even pay the whole $29.40.

I'm in Canada, and I have a supplemental insurance plan to cover health related expenses not covered by the government. I get it through my employer, I pay $7 a month for it, and it covers things like hospital room and board, crutches, orthotics, prosthetics, psychologist services, dental, etc., as long as those things are prescribed/referred by a doctor.

[Milk]

28. I'm a descendant of Canada some generations removed

Can I get in on this if I go back?

[buzzycrumbhunger]

31. Even prosthetics?

My son lost a leg in high school to a strep infection (so-called "flesh-eating bacteria," which they figure came from a thorn in his shoe). Shriners, bless 'em, took us both in for a month and gave him rehab, a cool wheelchair ("just in case," since he would age out of their program quickly), and two legs over two years--all for free. He continued to grow, so now he's 27, can hardly wear his leg, and hobbles around on crutches most of the time. He's had a helluva time finding steady work as a graphic/web designer, so has almost never had insurance. For the three months that he did, he learned they wouldn't cover a new leg.

He applied for SSI--not for monthly benefits, but for help getting a leg--and they strung him along for 18 months and repeatedly turn him down as he is "not disabled." I guess you need to lose two or three limbs for that--or just fake a bad back like the jackass two doors down from us, who is on full disability though we see him carrying 50-gallon aquariums and a 7-year-old like it's nothing.

From there, he tried Voc Rehab, which supposedly funds prosthetics for "everyone." Only problem is that there's such a waiting list, he will never be seen. As long as he's able to get out of the house and earn a paycheck, he's on his own.

A new leg (we're talking a basic suction-fit, no computerized goodies) cost the Shriners over $10K nine years ago. No way in hell he can afford this when he's just barely keeping his head above water. This is a guy who never whined about what happened to him. It is what it is and he views it as an annoyance, but not a handicap. He has never used it for sympathy, and it pisses him off to have to beg for help.

Apparently, I had him in the wrong country. I wonder if our Scots heritage would give us an "in" to Canadia. . . We love Rush and William Shatner and already tend to say things like "aboot" and everything. *sigh*

[Lucy Goosey]

56. And to clarify, a hospital stay in a ward in Canada is covered by Medicare...

it's only the upgrade to a private room that you have to pay for out of pocket, or have covered by supplemental insurance. You also have to pay a couple of bucks a day for your own cable TV, but that's obviously reasonable - it's hard to argue that access to TV is a medical necessity.

[Vinca]

36. You know those strips you pee on at the doctor's office? That's $29.40.

[LibDemAlways]

42. That was the price of a one night stay in a US hospital (bed only) about a half

century ago. I have a friend born in 1953 whose mother saved the hospital bill from when she was born. Her nightly rate (5 nights was standard back then) was $25.00. Doctor charges were, of course, extra, but I recall that the entire bill was something like $275.00. She had no insurance, and that paid for everything.

Insurance company greed has created a situation that is now a completely out of control monster, and the American consumer is the victim.

[ThatsMyBarack]

43. "Le garcon est un voleur!"

"The waiter is a thief!"

[liberal N proud]

44. 25% is awfully steep

:sarcasm:

[NikolaC]

45. Amazing

My son was recently in the emergency room because of his asthma and, after the insurance kicked in $600, we were on the hook for the remaining $300. I had to stay in the hospital Friday night into the afternoon yesterday with a heart scare and my first thought was how much it was going to cost. I would just LOVE to only be on the hook for $30 a night. We really do need a similar single payer system, we just need to keep getting the message through to our Representatives and the White House. Just keep writing, e-mailing and calling them. Be louder than the teabagger nuts, but not crazy or violent.

[canucksawbones]

62. I remember working in ER...

a few years back. When Americans came in to the ER I would sadly tell them that as they didn't have Canadian coverage that I would have to bill them privately. 75 dollars before 11 pm, 150 dollars from 11 pm to 7am for an ER visit. They thought that I was messing with them, figured that a doctor couldn't actually see patients in the ER for that little (about 10 years ago)

GK

[mudstump]

47. Check out Paul Hipp,,

We're number 37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVgOl3cETb4&feature=player_embedded

[eagertolearn]

48. My daughter was a camp counselor at a TAG camp in Eugene this

summer for 5 weeks and got paid a little over $1000. One day during the heat wave she awoke from a nap and walked into the wall requiring 6 stitches to her eye brow at the local ER. Doctor bill for 6 stitches was almost $400 and the hospital bill for 6 stitches was $600 when she had the stitches and $400 when she had them removed a week later. So that is $1400 for 6 stitches in the ER with no x-rays. Our system is so screwed up. My other daughter got 25 stitches with a tetanus shot, antibiotics, pain pills and dressings and a two hour clean up for other abrasions from falling off a bike in Germany and total cost was $75 and we got right in to a very clean and organized clinic. Our deductible is $3000 a family member and so with my first daughters $1600 wisdom teeth removal the other day and $1400 for 6 stitches we are almost there and the year is about up. I'm worried about my kids future..how are they going to afford health insurance? Our friends and family in European countries and Canada are very happy with their health care (and their education that is paid for too). We are turning into a very under-educated and unhealthy country. Just where those who want to control us want us to be..very vulnerable!

[unblock]

49. when i was a kid, my two brothers and i got mumps at the same time

meds and a couple office visits for all three of us.

absolutely free, and zero paperwork.

in 1972, in france.

[ThomWV]

51. Question - can they buy private insurance to cover the 29 bucks?

Because if they can then the beginning of corruption of their system is already in place.

[Cleita]

52. France has socialized medicine? Not true.

It has a socialized method of payment for basic health care, but delivery of the healthcare is mostly private and competitive and private insurers pick up what the government doesn't pay for.

[Flatulo]

53. Nothing is free...

The total tax rate in France for the equivalent of a $50,000 per year income is around 47%.

In the USA, that tax rate is about 30%. The difference is about $8500, which is signifigantly less than the cost for an employer-sponsored health plan here. So the Frence seem to be getting a bargain compared to us.

Of course, in Europe, everyone is covered and losing your job doesn't place you in limbo (like I am now).

[Lucy Goosey]

59. It can be done cheaper - I pay less than 35% on my $70K salary in Canada.

We also have a sales tax, though, so there's that.

[Flatulo]

78. We spend more on defense than the rest of the world combined.

Not sure whom we're defending against anymore. The Russians are no threat and the Chinese need us to buy all their shitty products.

Maybe you Canadians are plotting to invade us?

[Lucy Goosey]

83. Ah. Of course. Different priorities, then.

I would love to invade and annex New England, New York, the West Coast and Hawaii. :)

[Fedja]

73. While your math holds, facts are lacking

The French are taxed $8500 more, yes. However, their system provides FAR more than only healthcare to compensate. The differences are so mindboggling that pointing out any one area would not do it justice. I suggest you look into their social security system as an example, there's bound to be tons of articles written online.

[Flatulo]

81. I understand, but even if *all* they were getting was a NHC system,

it would still be a bargain compared to what we're paying.

[eagertolearn]

88. Don't they get education for that tax rate too?

[VPStoltz]

54. Oh the humanity! What will the rich say? What will the tea-baggers say?

How can we live with the government stealing us blind?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

55. What's the average cost of a hospital room in the U.S.?

It might depend on the region and the health problem (whether the person will require surgery or not or intensive care). But I'll bet it's somewhere between $400 to $600 a night. I think there's more than just the gouging of insurance companies at play. I think higher doctor and nurse salaries, higher hospital overhead, and the high salaries of hospital administrators are factors.

[dugaresa]

57. i spent a night recently at a hospital and it cost $850

that was the room rental, not the other services. I spent less than 24 hours and the tab came to $5K

[buzzycrumbhunger]

58. My son's recent stay

Went to the ER with what was obviously cellulitis (he already lost a leg to necrotizing fasciitis--see post above--so we do not screw around with such things) and ended up in the hospital for two days of IV antibiotics and then a PIC line for another week's worth. Total cost for him as uninsured? $127K and counting. For some reason, his paperwork for assistance was "lost" twice and the account has now gone to collection.

Personally, my insurance was "upgraded" by employer last year to "maximize" savings (to them, obviously, not me). I get to pay out of pocket to the tune of $6K before they pay a cent, and they cap out at $80K a year. This renders my insurance useless as it obviously won't even pay for a single health crisis. I'm too paranoid to go without, but haven't used it at all in decades. I'd have done better throwing that money at lotto tickets all this time. :(

[Quantess]

61. K & R

[Jakes Progress]

63. I'll bet faux news will report this. All but the last sentence. nt

[green917]

64. This makes me ill

My 12 year old daughter had an accident yesterday (fortunately she's okay) that required about 100 stitches and will require some plastic surgery. We spent 4 hours in the emergency room (most of it waiting) and she received 1 vicodin and the aforementioned stitches and my ex and I are fully expecting it to run more than $1000 dollars (not counting the plastic surgery to come). To think that if we lived in a civilized society, it would have cost us a nominal fee, makes me want to move.

[verges]

68. $1000?

I would guess alot more than that. Try to be prepared.

[kestrel91316]

77. I predict a bill of $5k, I hate to say. $1k was for the Vicodin.

[earcandle]

65. LOLOLOLOL!

[colsohlibgal]

66. Buried Just Like Sibel.

The MSN will give this story little or no press. But they sure are running with the wing nuts Acorn story and birthers etc.

The media, along with campaign financing, are enormous problems. The corporations are running the show, pulling the strings, the big networks are corporately owned, the math is simple.

Also, a republican says that they are coming back and suddenly this is all over the place even if it belies the real truth.

France gets it about as right as the Scandinavian nations. Imagine the stress level reduction for middle class folks. No worrying about paying medical bills, no worrying about educating your children.

It's been a long start and stop slide downhill for awhile. The start of it snuffing three beacons of hope for liberals in the space of less than five years in the 60s and then went into overdrive with Reagan, who did the most dismantling of FDR's New Deal.

[JawJaw]

70. Stress Levels

Up until this year, the ONLY direct financial burden placed on the families of those being treated by the NHS here in Wales was the cost of the visitor parking lots. Even those charges have been abolished now.

People wouldn't be too happy here to have to pay the equivalent of 30 bucks a night. They'd be taking to the streets if they had to shell out thousands for a course of treatment, as seems typical in the States. Of course, private options are available for those with the money, and a taste for Laura Ashley wallpaper.

[LTR]

69. That's cheaper than the parking ramps at OUR hospitals!

Mon diu!

[MasonJar]

76. The rise in cost in specifics should becoome our rallying call! Vive la France!

[Massacure]

82. I think I know where I am going to stay next time I take a vacation to France.

$29.40. That is cheaper than any hotel I can get. :rofl:

[cynatnite]

86. That's lower than my fucking co-pay for an office visit...

Depressing.

[LynnTheDem]

87. And in Canada, we don't even pay that.

Some day, Americans too will have such care & protection.

Hang in there, America!!!