Senate passes bill to allow passenger guns on Amtrak: Failure to comply will end Amtrak funding!

[Better Believe It]

Senate passes measure to allow gun transport on Amtrak
By Evan Glass
September 16, 2009

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Amtrak would lose its federal subsidies if it doesn't put a system in place by early next year to check and track firearms so that passengers can legally put the weapons in their checked baggage, the Senate voted Wednesday.

The measure, an amendment to the transportation and housing appropriations bill, passed 68-30.

Amtrak's current policy prohibits passengers from carrying "any type of gun, firearm, ammunition, explosives or weapon" in carry-on or checked baggage.

Amtrak Chairman Thomas Carper noted in a letter to Sens. Patty Murray and Christopher Bond decrying Wednesday's congressional mandate. They are the top Democrat and Republican, respectively, on the Appropriations Committee's transportation subcommittee.

"Unlike the airline industry, Amtrak has no system in place for a uniform system of screening for weapons," Carper wrote. The railroad has no secure loading areas, and trains make multiple stops, he said. Employees also would need intensive training.

Further, he said, the National Railroad Passenger Corp. (Amtrak) has neither the money nor the time to meet the Senate's timetable to put such a system in place.

Carper warned that if Amtrak were to lose federal funds, it would result in the "cessation of all Amtrak service nationwide."

The gun measure was sponsored by Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Mississippi

Murray opposed the legislation.

"In order to receive any federal funding under this amendment, Amtrak would have six months to build a process for checking and tracking firearms," she said.

"It would have to find the manpower necessary to screen and guard firearms, and it would have to purchase the equipment necessary. Now there is nothing in the underlying appropriations to pay for any of that. So this amendment is going to put a severe burden on them and if they do not comply, Amtrak will shut down."

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/16/amtrak.guns/index.html

[virginia mountainman]

1. Whats the problem??

Just like airliners....Checked bags...

[NYC_SKP]

3. +1 n/t

[Lifelong Protester]

4. Have you ever boarded an Amtrak train in rural America?

they barely have time to slow down for you to jump on... much less check bags.

[Statistical]

91. No checked bags = no checked firearms. Problem solved.

[ThoughtCriminal]

7. Read again

"Unlike the airline industry, Amtrak has no system in place for a uniform system of screening for weapons," Carper wrote. The railroad has no secure loading areas, and trains make multiple stops, he said. Employees also would need intensive training."

The airlines have a system in place because the taxpayers provided billions of dollars to pay for it. This amendment provides zero funds for Amtrak to implement it and threatens to eliminate all Amtrak funding if they don't.

So, OK, if Congress wants to force Amtrak to accommodate gun owners, let them also provide reasonable funding to make it practical and secure.

[aikoaiko]

13. billion dollar screening process for checked guns?

This is the so called billion dollar screening process at an airport.

1. I walk up to ticket counter and say, "I have a gun to declare".

2. Attendant says, "thank you, sir, please show me that it is unloaded"

3. I take out case, unlock it, take out pistol being careful not to muzzle sweep, pop the slide, rack the slide, and turn it to show an empty chamber.

4. Attendant says, "thank you sir"

5. I hit the slide release, pop the empty mag back in, lock the gun in the case, and put it back in the luggage.

6. Unlocked luggage gets placed on conveyor belt and disappears.

[Hannah Bell]

16. do you realize most rural/suburban stations don't have *any* personnel,

let alone ticketers or baggage checks?

the amtrak station in my town = zero personnel. in the next two stops on either side: 1, 0.

only the big-city hubs have such a thing as "baggage check". here, you carry on your own luggage & sit with it, or stash it in the shelves between compartments.

the legislation is idiotic.

[Statistical]

21. You do realized amTrak allowed checked firearms for almost 4 decades?

Their policy as exactly like the airlines. Had to be locked and unloaded. It was stored in baggage car. It only changed after the Madrid bombing which involved no firearms.

The policy could be a simple as you hand it to conductor when he checks your ticket.

As you indicate the current policy does nothing for security. Terrorism and murder are already against the law. Since AmTrak has minimal security terrorist could easily bring firearms on board with or without this change.

[Hannah Bell]

25. do you realize there was no examination of or questioning re checked baggage for the last four

decades?

i don't *want* people pulling out guns to "show the conductor" in the passenger compartment.

it's bullshit designed to force amtrak to spend money for bullshit.

[Statistical]

28. why would they have to show the conductor anything.

Why not have the firearm checked when ticket is purchased?

If it is a larger stop then they will get check claim and secure firearm is loaded on the train.

If it is a smaller stop then some sort of tamperproof tag is attached to the opening. The person hands the pre-inspected & closed case to conductor he notes the tamperproof tag, hands them a claim check and secures the case.

It really isn't that hard.

[Hannah Bell]

33. as i've said, there IS no baggage check, nor claim checks, nor station

personnel. you're asking the train personnel (minimal staff) to check guns in addition to their other duties?

fund it.

[Statistical]

41. READ THE DAMN BILL. If bags aren't checked the bill DOESN'T APPLY.

Generally it is a good idea to read a bill befoe freaking out about it.

If checked bags are not allowed on that route then firearms can' be checked. It is that simple.

[Hannah Bell]

46. so people bring on their *unchecked* guns & keep them on the seat?

that "hunting tourism" - is it confined to new york city or something?

wtf is the point of this bill but to make amtrak spend money they don't have (since the repugs defund them yearly) on stuff they don't need?

[Statistical]

48. No. AMTRAK prohibits carried firearms.

Right now:
Carried firearms prohibited
Checked firearms prohibited

After bill:
Carried firearms prohibited
Checked firearms authorized

If a particular route doesn't have checked bags then you can't check a firearm.

Once again what "extra" money are they spending?
Why would it cost more to check a firearm then it would be to check a guitar?

If a route allows checked bags then firearms are declared and checked like any other bag.
If a route doesn't allow checked bags then there is no change.

[Hannah Bell]

so the plan is, passengers are allowed to have unloaded guns in their luggage, declare it without

station personnel having to examine the gun, & have the luggage checked until they arrive?

fine. i'm quite sure people do it already without saying. so far, no terrorists.

if you want the baggage checkers to open the luggage & look at the guns, or if any additional paperwork or security is required, FUND IT.

[Statistical]

54. That is exactly what they do with airlines right now.

I would NEVER want someone who is unfamiliar with my firearm to be poking and proding it.

There is nothing to fund because what you describe is exactly what will be required of Amtrack and exactly what the airlines do right now.

[Hannah Bell]

58. no. your "i have a gun to declare" routine is what happens on airlines.

there isn't any such routine on amtrak & hasn't been so long as i've been riding.

going through the routine takes extra time & in aggregate requires man hours.

just to ask "anything to declare?" adds man-hours in aggregate.

[Statistical]

59. Well I guess they need to raise ticket prices $0.01 to cover it.

Sorry it is a negligible amount of time.

Likely less than 1% of people will declare a firearm.
So out of 100 tickets it will add an extra 10-30 seconds.

Say the guy checking bags makes $20 per hour. The additional labor cost for Amtrack is about $0.16 spread over 100 tickets is 0.16 cents per ticket. If they raise ticket prices $0.01 the cover their costs and add some profit.

[Hannah Bell]

65. so the agents don't have to ask the question? the customer initiates the

declaration?

i don't think so. the agent will have to ask the question. too easy for customers to forget, otherwise, & legal issues.

amtrak has 19,000 employees serving 29 million riders/yr = 1 employee (including management) per 1526 riders.

(There have to be some low-paid contract employees in this picture, because that figure is unbelievable, but that's the figure given: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak)

one cent (.01) x 29 million tickets = $290,000.

1 $20/hr employee, 40 hrs, 50 weeks = $40,000 & 2080 hrs = 1 FTE

10 extra seconds for 29 million transactions = 290,000,000 seconds
= 4,833,333 minutes
= 80,555 hours
= 38.7 FTEs of 2080 hrs each
= $1,548,000

So I calculate 40 new hires to cover the minimal scenario you outline, & 5 times the cost. If we assume half the passengers ride on no-check routes, it's still 2.5 times the cost you outline, 20 new hires.

Let me know if the math is wrong.

[Statistical]

76. Where in the bill does it say AmTrak needs to ask any customer anything?

When I go on an airline they don't ask me if I have a firearm. The one time I had a firearm out of about 200+ flights for business I told them. It took all over 30 seconds.

Your assumption of security, asking questions of each passenger, additional manpower, screening are all that assumptions, incorrect assumptions.

In 6 months AmTrack will be checking firearms and if you check a bag without declaring a firearm they won't ask you a single thing that they didn't prior to this bill.

[ThoughtCriminal]

19. You are overlooking quite a bit

>>"gets placed on conveyor belt and disappears..."

Wow. Magic.

You are only considering the portion of the process that you see. There is a huge difference between the secure baggage areas of a typical airport and the very public and accessible train platforms. There are a large number of security personnel at airports to monitor the baggage. Bomb detection systems and processes have to make sure that transported ammunition does not set off false positives (Amtrak is VERY worried about bombs since Madrid and London and threats are pretty common).

[Hannah Bell]

26. yes, compare an airport to our brick, circa 1920 amtrak station with ZERO personnel.

the city unlocks it in the morning & locks it when the last run goes though. hoping no kids have vandalized it in the meantime.

the ticket agent disappeared sometime during the reagan administration. the baggage handlers in the 70s.

[aikoaiko]

42. Yes, but the mechanisms for security are the same whether guns are checked or not.

I don't see this as overburdening the AMTRAK system at all.

[ThoughtCriminal]

49. Not quite

As I explained elsewhere, Amtrak can check for explosives (K-9 sniffers), but does not have the equipment to differentiate between firearms ammunition and other explosives. That would require a substantial additional investment and additional trained screeners. If Amtrak implements this policy and does not get funding for additional screening equipment, it becomes more vulnerable to a Madrid type attack.

[Statistical]

51. Why. It might lead to more false positives but certainly not false negatives.

So the dog may bark more and more bags get manualy searched. Amtrack complains and gets better equipment.

How exactly would this lead to "Madrid type bombing"?

[ThoughtCriminal]

57. Think about it

Yeah, the dog is indicating there might be a bomb in there, cut it open! Does this REALLY sounds like a wise bomb disposal procedure to you? Would having it explode when you cut the lock constitute a "False Negative"?

This is why airports have trained professionals and additional equipment.

Before, you were saying all they have to do is accept the bag and toss it on the train. Now we have to deal with a bag that has tested positive from the dog. This may happen every time a baggage car that has firearms/ammunition stored on it is checked. And now has to be CAREFULLY checked using means and personnel that the railroad does not have.

Either Amtrak has to cut open and check every bag that has ammunition to make sure it is safe (not so simple or sane) or take the risk that a bag that has been checked in as firearms ammunition is in fact a bomb.

"Amtrak complains and gets better equipment." You don't follow the Amtrak appropriations much do you? Why not provide this with the mandate? Answer: Senator Wicker probably doesn't give a damn about whether Amtrak is still operating.

[Statistical]

60. Sorry I just don't see it as the giant problem you make it out to be.

What does AmTrak do now if they get a false positive? Lots of thinks cause false positive on dogs. Gunpowder is very powerful scent. Someone who went to the range (cop coming off duty) prior to touching his bag is enough to transfer the scent.

If it is such a major problem then AmTrak is ALREADY putting customer lives at risk by not having proper bomb detection equipment.

[ThoughtCriminal]

63. Since firearms and ammunition are not allowed

they do not get that many false positives.

If we have a lot of people transporting firearms and ammunition, they are likely to have false positives on almost every train that is checked. This will undermine one of the few good resources that Amtrak has to protect its passengers. The dogs are VERY good, but one of the things that makes them effective is that they do not have deal with false indications from checked ammunition.

What is the big hurry on mandating that Amtrak comply with this rule?
Why threaten Amtrak with funding DEATH if it does not able to safely implement the requirements by next March?
Why not provide the funding, the resources and provide enough time to do it right?

[Statistical]

64. Sorry it is a constitutional right.

As a private entity AmTrak can prohibit firearms on private property but once they accept public funds it changes the rules.

The bill passed with substantial support from both parties. They are given 6 months of time. Their operating budget is $1.87 B and the cost of checking firearms is negligible. AmTrack already receives $1.3B in subsidies to augment it's revenue giving it over $3B working capital annually.

This is a cost of doing business just like buying diesel fuel, or avoid credit card fraud.

[Hannah Bell]

66. FUND IT, then. $1.3 billion = in constant dollars, their approximate 1975

level of subsidy.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/274

[Statistical]

81. Obviously the Senate considers it already funded.

They aren't buying into your billion dollar pricetag for someone to have a conversation and the law protect passengers who legally transport a firearm in a checked bag.

People do it right now but they are breaking the law. All this does is prohibit AmTrak from making an unreasonable demand of considering such lawful transport to be illegal.

[ThoughtCriminal]

68. Retreating to this?

There are many public places that restrict firearms for safety and security reasons. It has nothing to do with your right to own a firearm. If you REALLY believe that these restrictions are unconstitutional, why stop at Amtrak's checked baggage? Would you argue that it is illegal for Amtrak to bar you from carrying a loaded gun with you on the train? How about a Courtroom, or into the White House? These are all public places. And why stop at guns - could you argue that a bomb is an "arm" and your right to carry a bomb is restricted?

The total Amtrak funding barely covers its operational costs, and there is little, and in many years no extra funds for new and replacement equipment. TSA has spent billions on airport baggage security, it took years and requires an large staff of trained personnel. How is Amtrak supposed to do this with NO funding and 6 months? The head of Amtrak says they do not have the ability to implement this safely and this could result in a complete system shutdown.

[Statistical]

83. Always the escalation.

Security is used to catch - ILLEGAL WEAPONS.
Regardless of if this bill passes AmTrak should increase security but that is a totally separate issue.
The cost to delcare a firearm in checked bags in neglible. If it were me I would say no need to even declare it.
You simply can. Of course I understand politically why we don't do that.
It would be spun as "Police powerless to stop hidden weapons on trains & planes".
The declaration is nothing but legal cover just like it is on airlines.

Who said anything about whitehouse or courthouse?
Heller v. DC indicated that firearms can be prohibited insensitive places. Firearms are prohibited in cabin on planes but it is hard to classify an unloaded & locked firearm in checked baggage is a "sensitive place".

Although TSA costs billions and it took years Airlines allowed firearms in checked bags prior, and after 9/11. Allowing lawful firearms in checked bags has nothing to do with security.
Should AmTrak have more money for security? Yes. I would support any such bill that came up. However that is a completely separate issue from allowing legal transport of unloaded & locked firearms.

Like it or not firearms are a fundamental right, and as such strict Scrutiny does apply. The policies can't be a restrictive as say a policy on food brought on board, or over sized luggage.
Are you telling me AmTrak current policy passes strict scrutiny? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

[aikoaiko]

101. quite.

If a dog hits a bag it gets inspected. If the bag has a locked gun container with the little TSA like sticker and no bombs then its good to go, the same way if a dog hits a bag and there is no locked gun container.

Amtrak is no more vulnerable because people are permitted to check unloaded locked up guns. it might take a little more time, but that's about it.

[ThoughtCriminal]

104. Many problems with that

It pretty much requires that every declared firearm container has to be treated as a potential bomb and manually inspected. As I documented elsewhere, the dogs cannot differentiate. Not to mention the delays introduced by what would likely become a common occurrence. Airlines can handle it because they were provided generous funding through TSA to get the equipment and manpower.

The point is that Amtrak does not have the personnel, training or equipment to deal with this. The amendment does not provide this funding, but it does eliminate ALL Amtrak funds if they are not able to comply.

[aikoaiko]

106. I have confidence that the AMTRAK personnel can handle this.

The burden will likely be small in terms of additional work.

I'm all for increasing funding for AMTRAK, but I'm also for the common sense application of FOPA's transportation laws of unloaded locked firearms to AMTRAK since they work just fine for commercial airlines (with much security) and personal cars (with no security).

[ThoughtCriminal]

109. According to Amtrak's Director - they do not

have the resources or training. I'm more likely to take his word for it. I have documented the substantial problems elsewhere.

[benEzra]

113. I am under the impression that most explosives dogs aren't trained to alert on small arms ammunition

but I may be wrong. Small arms ammo contains propellants (deflagrants, primarily nitrocellulose based), not explosives; an explosive loaded to modern-firearm pressures would blow up the gun. Also, ammunition is generally hermetically sealed to prevent moisture/humidity damage to the propellant. If EOD dogs were trained to alert on cased ammunition, they'd have a hard time working in this country, I'd think.

I do know that airline explosives screening gear doesn't alert on small arms ammo, because I once declared a firearm on a flight and had the suitcase it was in scanned for explosives residue, with a negative result.

[Hannah Bell]

50. what "mechanisms for security"? there are NO personnel. NO money, not even for

a ticket agent.

you want the already short-staffed train personnel not only to sell tickets, but to check guns.

FUND IT.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=amtrak+budget+cuts

[Statistical]

53. Your missing the point.

You state Amtrak's station is unsecured.

So if Amtrak doesn't allow checked guns someone could bring a firearm on the train and commit an attack.
If Amtrack does allow checked guns someone could bring a firearm (not checked) on the train and commit an attack.

So either way nothing changed.

There is no need for funding because the firearms are checked like any other baggage.

Me: I am declaring a checked, locked, unloaded firearm in this hard case.
Bag Check: Is it unloaded?
Me: Yes
Bag Check: Is it locked?
Me: Yes
Bag Check (glancing at the bag): I see it is a hard case.

He takes the bag and places it with other checked bags. Hands me ticket, and claim check and I board the plane.

Other than a little dialog the process is exactly the same as checking ANY OTHER LUGGAGE.

[Hannah Bell]

55. your routine takes extra time. you don't "declare" items on amtrak.

it's not like airlines. you're not a rider, apparently.

you want it, fund it.

[Statistical]

56. It takes all of 10 seconds.

It is ONLY used where checked bags are accepted.
Checking bags takes a time anyways.

Sorry there is no need to fund an extra 10 seconds in a person declaring they have a locked, unloaded, firearm in a hard case.

[Hannah Bell]

61. i thought you were the statistical guy. 10 additional seconds for each of

29 million riders? how many FTEs is that?

you do the math, since you're so statistical.

[Statistical]

62. 10 seconds for each passenger with firearm not all passengers.

Lets be generous and say 1% check a firearm (I think it is more like 1/1000th or 1/5000th).

That is 290,000 checked firearms. Let even say 30 seconds each.

145,000 minutes.
2400 hours

At $20 per hour that's about $50,000 in additional labor. Now this actually way over estimates the amount but for the sake of argument we will go with it.

Amtrak operating cost for latest year I could find were $1.87 billion. The cost would be 0.002% of their operating budget.

[Hannah Bell]

67. you still have to ask the question. let's time it: ok, by my watch,

this routine:

"hi sir, do you have anything to declare?
"no, i don't."

takes 5-8 seconds, depending on how fast & robotically you say it. you can automatically double that for little old ladies, families with crying children, etc.

the question has to be asked of every passenger, not just those with guns, & the gun-carrier will not be given discretion to initiate the exchange, just as they're not on planes.

here are *my* calculations, somewhat different from your statistical ones.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6568208&mesg_id=6569022

[Statistical]

75. Once again did you read the bill?

Nothing says AmTrack has to ask any passenger anything.

A Passenger CAN DELCARE a firearm and AmTrak can't refuse it.

This is a non-issue. In 6 months AmTrak will be accepting a very very very small number of checked firearms just like airlines do at neglible cost and resources.

[aikoaiko]

102. I think you're point that AMTRAKs security is underfunded is a good one.

AMTRAK's security needs go way beyond checked guns. Checked guns aren't the problem.

[Lifelong Protester]

116. No one seems to get this but you and I

There are NO personnel at the station I usually get on at. It isn't that it is an inconvenience for Amtrak personnel~ the point is there are NO personnel in very many of the points that you get on the train.

[aquart]

20. How nice that you identify the bag your gun is in.

And you get the gun back?

[aikoaiko]

35. always.

:eyes:

[aquart]

73. So you never go thru New York?

[Statistical]

89. Despite what NY think it is part of the United States and FOPA does apply fully to New York

They have been sued multiple times for violations of federal law.

NYC also loved when bags with firearms had to be marked. They would take all the firearm bags, call in the owners advise them they were breaking the law but they could put a fine (couple hundred bucks) or they could be arrested. It was a lovely money making scheme.

Those days are long gone now. Luggage with firearms are not marked in anyway to indicate the contents, the FOPA protects lawful transport through areas with restrictive gun laws, and the numerous lawsuits has taught NYC they will lose this one over and over and over.

Last lawsuit I remember hearing about was in 2006.

[aquart]

115. Oh. I thought the handlers would just pocket the guns.

Nice to know there's one valuable you can safely put in your luggage.

[aikoaiko]

99. Sure, Rochester.

What's your point?

[Hannah Bell]

44. "conveyor belt." lol. this is a "big" station.

[Renew Deal]

97. Have fun trying that in Penn Station

The NYPD will not be amused.

[Statistical]

98. NYPD would be sued then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOPA

New York Port Authority was sued and lost for illegal arrest and seizure in 2006.
The duty of the Police is to enforce the law and the law allows lawful transport of firearms even in states with restrictive gun laws.

[aikoaiko]

103. Its happens all the time in JFK and Laguardia.

Do you really think the NYPD are incapable of doing their job?

[pipoman]

15. Well then they should have

"Unlike the airline industry, Amtrak has no system in place for a uniform system of screening for weapons,"

If this is true then any criminal bent on mass murder could board unchecked. This isn't about concealed carry on trains..maybe it should be. The primary tourism in my state (and several others) is hunting tourism. Guns are integral to hunting. Not allowing checked guns in public transportation effects tourism in many states. There are also millions of sport shooters who compete every weekend, they travel too. Not to mention that currently 43 states have 'shall issue' concealed carry laws on the books many of which reciprocate.

[Statistical]

17. AmTrack allowed checked firearm for decades... just like airlines have.

After 9/11 they stoped that policy as a feel good do nothing measure.

As mentioned they have minimal security so any terrorist could bring illegal weapons right into the passenger compartment.

How does prohibition on law abiding citizens keeping locked and unloaded firearms in cargo compartment make the train less safe?

[Hannah Bell]

22. i've ridden the trains regularly since i was a small child, before it was amtrak.

there has never been, on the portland to seattle run, any examination or questioning of checked baggage. you just checked it.

it forces amtrak to spend money on bullshit.

[Statistical]

31. Why would they examine it?

I checked a firearm on an airline. They never examined it. I let her know it was a firearm. She asked if it was unloaded. I said yes. She asked if I had a lock. I said yes. She asked if there was any ammo in the case with firearm? I said no. She asked if I had any ammo to declare in any other luggage. I said no. She glanced (maybe 2 whole seconds) at the case to make sure it was a hard case. She put a tag on it and took the bag.

Did you think people go cycle the action of firearms in major airports when they check them?

If a firearm owner checks a loaded firearm then they committed a felony. If they get caught they never can own a firearm again.

Other than employee training there should be no cost to AmTrack.

[ThoughtCriminal]

23. The reason they changed it.

Madrid. It takes a combination of very complicated equipment and K-9s to detect the difference between stored ammunition and a bomb.

Amtrak does use dogs to check trains for explosives. In fact, they were used on the last Amtrak trip that took.

[Statistical]

32. Which is why you are required to declare ammunition.

Just like on a plane.

[Hannah Bell]

36. fund it. fund it. pay for two "gun-checkers" on every train. plus a "secured compartment".

+ the additional insurance & security.

[Statistical]

40. Why there are no gun checkers on airlines?

Text of the bill...

"If an Amtrak station accepts checked baggage for a specific Amtrak route, an Amtrak passenger holding a ticket for such route shall be allowed to place an unloaded firearm or starter pistol in a checked bag on such route if"

The requirement is limited ONLY to routes that Amtrack checks bags.

The firearms are placed with all other checked bags exactly like they are for airlines.
If that route doesn't check bags..... you can't bring firearm.

Common sense legislation.

[ThoughtCriminal]

45. At the airport.

Checked bags—including those containing firearms—will then be screened for explosives by various means. Depending on the airport, methods may include high-tech "sniffers" that analyze chemical vapors, X-ray machines, trained bomb detection dogs or a combination of these systems. Not all of these methods can differentiate explosives from the gunpowder residues on a fired gun or in loaded ammunition.

If the screening detects explosive materials other than those associated with ammunition, or if screeners can`t determine the exact nature of the alarm, and if all means available (such as X-rays) cannot rule out the possible presence of explosives, TSA screeners, working with airline representatives, will make every effort to contact the passenger so that the passenger can supply the key or combination to open the case, eliminating the need to break locks.

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=527

-----
Amtrak has dogs to check for explosives, but none of the other equipment and personnel that are provided at taxpayer expense for the airlines.

If Congress is willing to provide the funds so that Amtrak can provide the same ability to handle ammunition without the risk of not being able to differentiate it from a locked bad with a bomb, I'm cool with that. But it is not 1950.

[Statistical]

47. So if the dog can't detect the difference between ammo and bomb....

it would be exactly like what happens now when the machine at airport can't detect difference between ammo and bomb.

They cut the lock and do a manual check.

[ThoughtCriminal]

52. Well the dogs can't, so that's a lot of cutting and checking

And you still think this won't add costs and delays? Now, with additional equipment (which you claim they don't need even though the airlines use them) you can probably eliminate most the false positives, but not all. But since this amendment does not provide funding for that equipment and the personnel to operate it, that just leaves us with what Amtrak has now. Dogs that will likely flag the bad as a possible explosive. So, in order to be sure it is just ammunition, that leaves us with cutting open the baggage, or holding up departures until the passenger can be located to obtain the key.

What railroads did 40 years ago is not relevant because we have terrorists who DO target passenger trains in western countries.
What airlines do now is not relevant because they have been provided expensive resources and equipment that Amtrak does not have.

[Hannah Bell]

70. i'm going by what this ally of yours says:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6568208&mesg_id=6568341

[Statistical]

78. Well he is uninformed.

I have flown with a firearm and it never left the case.

Post 9/11 can you imagine the utter chaos and fear it would cause if I took a firearm out of a case and started "operating it".
When I declared the firearm the ticket person even specifically told me there is no reason to open the case likely because in the past someone did exactly that and caused mass panic.

[aikoaiko]

107. Perhaps different airports handle these things differently;

I am not uninformed. that is what happened.

[Statistical]

108. I stand corrected. I would imagine that would cause a stir for those who are not use to firearms.

TSA regulations only require the weapon be unloaded, locked, and in hard case.

The airlines have some latitude on their policies. The ticket agent when I checked mine barely glanced at it, punched a couple keys (I assume/hope declaring it), printed my ticket, and took the bags.

[krispos42]

69. We don't even need that

It's a train. It rides on tracks. On the ground. It's 100% accessable to law enforcement at all points of travel. The passengers have cell phone coverage over most of the route. The passengers can jump out of the train over most of the route. It can be diverted and even derailed at will. It can't be hijacked and driven into a building or to Cuba.


How about... we just relax and find something else to worry about? This Culture of Fear stuff is something we're trying to move past, not perpetuate.

Let people keep guns in their luggage if they want to, let people with permits carry concealed if they want to, and we move on to other, more useful, things.

[Captain Hilts]

2. They should make people check them, as on an airplane. nt

[Statistical]

18. They are. That is EXACTLY what the bill does.

Airlines:
Firearms prohibited on carry on.
Firearms authorized if declared in CHECKED bags.

Amtrack now:
Firearms prohibited on carry on.
Firearms prohibited in checked bags.

AmTrack after bill passes
Airlines:
Firearms prohibited on carry on.
Firearms authorized if declared in CHECKED bags.

[Hannah Bell]

27. as i said, most amtrak stops in the us don't check baggage. many have no personnel.

many are just covered shelters.

you want the train personnel to run gun checks, too?

better pay for more new hires, then.

[tammywammy]

105. So if they don't check baggage then someone cannot carry a gun n/t

[havocmom]

5. but but but.... wingers said Obama and DEM Congress were gonna grab all the guns

I have all those forwarded emails saying so ;)

[rwheeler31]

6. This is so stupid, what a waste of time and money.

[jtuck004]

8. Have you ridden AMTRAK lately?

Had a friend the other day took it from Arkansas to Oklahoma. Without prompting, he told me that the attendants were some of the rudest people he had ever met. It was ironic that this was what stood out for him. We took the train from Oklahoma to San Francisco a few years ago, and what I remember is the awesome scenery and the extraordinary rudeness of the attendant. Now I understand these people have to work with the public, and it is frustrating, etc, but they really are unprofessional, bordering on juvenile.

If they allow guns, they better check 'em into a separate compartment...

[Hannah Bell]

29. i ride seattle-portland fairly regularly, & have never had the experience you note.

i've ridden for 50 years at least once a year.

your experience doesn't generalize.

[jtuck004]

111. Experience

Yes, that's probably true.

But it was specific for the 40 or so people in this car. The AC died coming back out of California and the attendant slept in the car ahead so he could be cooler. When he woke he found people from this car checking for other places to cool off - it was pretty hot.

He came in and made an announcement "You people need to stay out of first class. Those are first class people, and you aren't".


funny...

[Ramulux]

9. This is brilliant....

Oh thank god, I feel so much safer now.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. Wonderful...just f**kin wonderful...

:nuke:

[Skink]

11. I once took a saxophone across country on Amtrack.

shared a cabin with it.

[Equality4all]

12. More change we can believe in

It is encouraging to see the Senate support the constitution and the bill of rights by protecting the 2nd amendment. Kudos to our democratic Senate. Now if only they could repeal the patriot act. Freedom is precious, but not free. Thank you Senate for your vote of faith in Americans and preservation of our rights.

[GodDamLiberal]

14. Maybe they could

put all the gun "owners" in one car that has bullseyes painted on it.
Then they could experience what other gun "owners" think of them when they ride Amtrak.

[TxRider]

24. You can take guns on a plane in checked baggage

why not a train?

[Hannah Bell]

30. um - because the majority of stations don't have hundreds of personnel to screen your luggage?

they don't even have baggage check, in fact?

[Statistical]

34. So bags are unsceened with or without this bill so what is the difference?

Nothing in the bill says amtrack has to do any screening.

They don't do screening now, after the bill they still won't do screening.

Did you even read the bill?

[Hannah Bell]

71. how about if you link the bill & we'll discuss it.

[Statistical]

79. Text of the bill is below in #72.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

37. trains can be hijacked too

[Jkid]

38. Am afraid that's what the conservatives want: Total shutdown of Amtrak

They know that Amtrak does not have the money to make a security preperations for firearms. Worse, it's a unfunded mandate. So they want Amtrak to shutdown.

They don't care about the car-less or the rural areas not supported by airplanes.

[Statistical]

43. What unfunded mandate? Did you read the bill?

Customer checks firearm along with every other checked bag.

That is the extent of Amtrak responsibility. Period.

The bill is even more friendly to Amtrak then I initially thought. If checked service is not available on that route then Amtrak doesn't have to accept checked firearms.

[Statistical]

39. Text of the bill

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s1638/text

Section 24305 of title 49, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

‘(g) Secure Transportation of Firearms- If an Amtrak station accepts checked baggage for a specific Amtrak route, an Amtrak passenger holding a ticket for such route shall be allowed to place an unloaded firearm or starter pistol in a checked bag on such route if--

‘(1) before checking the bag or boarding the train, the passenger declares to Amtrak, either orally or in writing, that the firearm is in his or her bag and is unloaded;

‘(2) the firearm is carried in a hard-sided container;

‘(3) such container is locked; and

‘(4) only the passenger has the key or combination for such container.

‘(h) Small Arms Ammunition- An Amtrak passenger shall be allowed to place small arms ammunition for personal use in a checked bag on an Amtrak route if the ammunition is securely packed--

‘(1) in fiber, wood, or metal boxes; or

‘(2) in other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.

‘(i) Applicability- Subsections (g) and (h) shall not apply in any fiscal year in which Amtrak does not receive Federal financial assistance.’.

Nothing about screening, or additional manpower, or anything.

If Amtrack allows checked bags then firearms can be checked.
If they don't then they can't.

The owner declares the firearms and confirms it is unloaded, locked, and in hardcase exactly like airlines.

[Hannah Bell]

72. 1. declaration, in whatever form, costs time. 2. declaration question

must be asked of every passenger, as on airlines, or rendered meaningless (e.g. if question isn't asked & passengers 'forget' to declare, they're not following the law - yet how would personnel know & what would the sanction be?)

3. There has to be some way of matching declaration to baggage, or else the declaration is, once more, meaningless; thus special claims/holding procedures = added cost.

4. The complications with present security procedures noted by the other poster.


They're just jacking with amtrak, as the other poster noted. they can fund it or stfu.

[Statistical]

77. They don't need to ask every passenger. The airlines don't.

As far as AmTrak sanction. If the passenger doesn't declare and gets caught....... the passenger committed a felony not AmTrak. EXACTLY LIKE IT WORKS FOR AIRLINES NOW.

It a passenger doesn't declare and doesn't get caught. Nothing happens. It happens every day on airlines.
The declaration IS MEANINGLESS. IT was added because anti-nuts like you would freak out if people could check "secret weapons" (and you and I both know that is how it will be spun) on the train.
No additional security is needed for a bag with a firearm BECAUSE ANY BAG COULD HAVE A FIREARM RIGHT NOW. THIS VERY SECOND ANY BAG ON AN AMTRAK TRAIN COULD HAVE A FIREARM.

Despite all your hysterics in 6 months AmTrak will allow checked firearms. The policy will rarely be used (<1% of passengers and that is generous). It will cost a neglible amount of time and resources.

[Renew Deal]

95. What about local gun laws?

There are a lot of places where it's illegal to have certain types of guns or carry them certain ways. I don't understand how this law reconciles with that.

[Statistical]

100. FOPA passed almost 2 decades ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOPA

"Safe passage" provision

One of the law's provisions was that persons traveling from one place to another for a shooting sports event or any other lawful activity cannot be arrested for a firearms offense in a state that has strict gun control laws if the traveler is just passing through (short stops for food and gas) and the firearms and ammunition are not immediately accessible, unloaded and, in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment, in a locked container.<5>

An example of this would be that someone driving from Virginia to a competition in Vermont with a locked hard case containing an unloaded handgun and a box of ammunition in the trunk could not be prosecuted in New Jersey or New York City for illegal possession of a handgun provided that they did not stop in New Jersey or New York for an extended period of time.

[Selatius]

74. They may have successfully destroyed Amtrak with this.

There is no infrastructure for the orderly screening of passengers in place for Amtrak to utilize. There is no funding for the building of said infrastructure to handle this new change.

[Statistical]

80. Where in the bill is the word screening used?

Me: "I have a firearm in this checked bag and I am declaring it to be compliant with the law."
Amtrack: "Ok". Next.

[Selatius]

114. Terrorist: "I don't have any weapons with me." Amtrak: "OK. Next in line."

Boom, the 3/11 Madrid attacks all over again with dead bodies and body parts everywhere.

[marmar]

82. I'm as anti-gun as anyone, but I'm OK with it if it's only checked baggage....

...... My great problem with this is that they're going to have to spend all this $$$$ to set up the screening infrastructure, when the money should be spent on improving service.
Ain't that America.

[Better Believe It]

85. The not so "hidden" purpose behind the bill is to starve and end Amtrak train service

[votingupstart]

84. its in checked baggage - so what, bags are not being checked now anyway

there are guns allowed to be in checked baggage airplanes, its not like anyone has access to it.

[Tim01]

86. Does everybody go through metal detectors to get on a train now? nt

[dionysus]

87. it's checked baggage, like on planes. yet another in a long line of failthreads BBI. go back to

t-school.

[bdamomma]

88. I think we are becoming like the "Wild West" with all this

gun stuff. Disgusting.

[Statistical]

90. Yup.

That is why the firearms need to be locked, unloaded, and in checked bags.

Everyone knows it is sooo easy to kill someone with an unloaded, inaccessible firearm. I do it accidentally at least a couple times a day.

[rucky]

92. Why was this bill even introduced?

seems to come completely from right field.

[Statistical]

94. Why did AmTrak ban checked lawfully transported firearms? That seems from right field.

[Renew Deal]

93. So people will be walking around Penn Station with guns in their bags?

Is that even legal in NYC? I don't think so.

[Statistical]

96. Depending on the conditions.... Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOPA

FOPA allows lawful transport through a state which has more restrictive gun laws if certain conditions are met.
Same way you can fly through NYC airport with checked firearm.

"Safe passage" provision
One of the law's provisions was that persons traveling from one place to another for a shooting sports event or any other lawful activity cannot be arrested for a firearms offense in a state that has strict gun control laws if the traveler is just passing through (short stops for food and gas) and the firearms and ammunition are not immediately accessible, unloaded and, in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment, in a locked container.<5>

An example of this would be that someone driving from Virginia to a competition in Vermont with a locked hard case containing an unloaded handgun and a box of ammunition in the trunk could not be prosecuted in New Jersey or New York City for illegal possession of a handgun provided that they did not stop in New Jersey or New York for an extended period of time.

[TankLV]

110. Then why not allow them on PLANES?!!!

Transportation is "transportation" after all...!!!


and I'm AGAINST allowing fire arms on ANY public transportation - EVER!!!

[Statistical]

112. I don't want to alarm you but....

they have been allowed on planes for at least 50 years now.

Checked Airline Luggage can contained unloaded locked firearms.
Hopefully you were sitting down so you didn't faint.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

However I am glad you agree "transportation is transportation".
Firearms can be securely transported via car, plane, and after this bill passes by train.