My, My.. There's a LOT of "draft" talk these days.. everywhere

[SoCalDem]

I may get slammed for saying this, but immediately following Viet Nam was the WORST time to eliminate the draft, because it forever made the DRAFT the "bad" part of the war, rather than the PEOPLE in DC who RAN the war.

A draft is a sensible way to have a military, since it creates (or should create) an across the board sense of "ownership" of our military.

A FAIR draft would include EVERY 18 yr old. (not just the ones who could not find good jobs)

The broad-brush of a draft would mean that military service would be a part of EVERY family in the US, and the quality of soldiering would be better too, since all people would participate.. There would be artists, poets, writers, musicians, scholars, a cross section of the community...not just poor people who are desperate for medical coverage for their kids, or young people with no hope of college, or a decent job or police academy washouts who just want to go and "kick ass".

If this is to work. it would have to have different rules though.

a THREE year commitment would have to be required

At 21, many would opt to stay in the military but the ones who opted OUT, would then have a voucher for THREE years at the state college-university of their choice..PAID IN FULL. Without having to work 40 a week while borrowing tons of money, a 21 yr old could easily buckle down to college routine and get 3/4 of their college done ..

Reserve is another option but it should have an UPPER limit of 35. By the time someone is 35, they usually have families and a career, and reserve spots should go to younger less encumbered people. We really don't need to be paying people to stay in the reserves well into their 50's. With EVERYONE participating in the military, there should be a ready reserve of young, healthy people to fill the reserves. It is utterly SHAMEFUL to see grandparents being called up to active duty.

Our leaders of BOTH parties have pretty much resigned themselves to a 50 year struggle, so the time is NOW..

[Puregonzo1188]

1. I'm just curious if you ever served in the military or not. (n/t)

[SoCalDem]

2. I was an airforce brat (my father was in for 26 years_

:)

[BOSSHOG]

7. She may not have but I did.

I volunarily spent 24 years in the world's greatest canoe club and I think her idea is a good one. (And I am very proud of my service.) It is essential if we are going to continue to have lunatics in the voting pool voting for lunatics who just have to be war presidents. If the bush's and cheneys and limbaughs want to wage war then one way or the other they should have to pony up some blood or look all americans in the eye and tell us why not.

[MH1]

52. I did, and I have supported Universal National Service as long as I can remember.

From before I joined up, while I was in, and still today.

I would probably structure it differently than the o.p., but I agree with the basic idea.

[TahitiNut]

3. We do not deseve to call ourselves a 'democracy' without bearing the burdens equitably.

That means male, female, gay and straight. The bargain we make in calling ourselves a 'democracy' is that we share the fruits of our national direction equitably, whether those fruits are sweet or sour. It's appalling to me that we ever surrendered to the corrupt seduction of a 'volunteer' military. I detested it then and I detest it now. Short of Universal National Service, a Universal Lottery-based Draft with no exemptions or exceptions is the only just approach. It should be, imho, an absolutely required part of any authorization to engage in combat overseas, whether that authorization be by pResidential edict under the specious "war powers" legislation or by Congress in funding or other act. We The People MUST comprehend that we're all in the same boat - and that level of participation should be mandatory.

[BOSSHOG]

8. You make me feel like dancing

You are my favorite nut teammate.

[TahitiNut]

11. Backatcha, shipmate.

:patriot:

[AndyTiedye]

29. This Thread Makes Karl Rove Feel Like Dancing

If the Democratic Congress enacts the draft, the Democratic party will suffer the consequences in the elections.

[coco77]

9. With no outs for the presidents children...

[TahitiNut]

15. No 'outs' at all. That said ...

... I find it appalling that so many look at the corruption of 'privilege' and, rather than "Do The Right Thing" ... try to get THEIR piece of the action. After all, that's what "I won't do it when ______'s children don't" is all about. It's like not turning in a bank robber as long as you get a cut of the loot. Appalling.

[Pyrzqxgl]

33. What if you are like me, a pacifist?

I was 4F in the 1960's but a lot of my friends did alternate service, went to prison, and went to Canada to escape
Johnson & Nixon's dirty little war. I felt guilty about my draft status but only because I couldn't join those friends.
I did a lot of picket line duty to make up for that.

[SoCalDem]

36. There are jobs in the military that do not involve guns

Those are the jobs for the pacifists:)

[TahitiNut]

37. I respected the CO medics a LOT.

I have no problem with folks doing four years in prison instead of 2-3 years in military service. I respect people who're willing to bear the burdens of their own principles ... and am in awe of the Buddhist monks who performed self-immolation as an act of protest in Viet nam. Their demonstration of their commitment to their own principles is a model for all humanity, imho.

When EVERYONE must share the burdens of war ... we'll be far closer to the end of war itself. Let Europe be a lesson.

[BOSSHOG]

42. Wow

Shipmate, I thought I was an awesome rational sumbitch. Your logic is totally fucking awesome. You wanna go to war, you gonna shed the blood. I've moved you ahead of my right nut.

Imagine a conservative think tank. Lets go to war LITERALLY. Not gonna happen.

[SoCalDem]

43. Think tank guys would last about 10 minutes

:)

Can't you just see some of them "at war"? The shitpants smell would give away their position :rofl:

[TahitiNut]

46. Hell, I peed my pants.

It ain't unusual.

[TahitiNut]

45. I really don't think there's anyone more against war than those of us who've been there and done it.

I'm more of a pacifist than anyone can imagine ... and I detested being in the military. Me and the military were like water and oil. That does not stop me from respecting it. There are dirty jobs to be done until we learn better ... and we damned well won't learn unless we share equitably in doing the dirty jobs. I've done the "draftee vs. lifer" stuff, too, but when push came to shove we were in it together. Things get very real and very immediate. Funny how the sparring and kidding was balanced with some of the strongest hugs I've ever given/gotten in my life.

There are just too many cop-outs that let us sit back and not give it that extra effort ... even to the point of burying DC in millions of bodies without benefit of permit. The road ahead to the abolition of the Military-Industrial-Complex is littered with bodies of patriots and pacifists. There ain't no detours or shortcuts.

Matters of Conscience are too easily Attitudes of Convenience in disguise. We either DEFEND our right to self-governance with our very lives or we lose it. That said, I'm not optimistic. When such matters confront us as a People, we're far too inclined to say "I'm Going To Disneyland!" (That's the social equivalent of the showers at Dachau, imho.) Hell, it scares me, too. That's life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. We need medics

nuff said

[BOSSHOG]

10. Okay

I must amend my previous post. You are my favorite nut right behind my left and my right.

[TahitiNut]

12. (LOL!)

I bow to the competition. :rofl: :rofl:

[sutz12]

4. Interesting...

I served in the 70's. I wasn't drafted, I enlisted.

IIRC the draft early in the war had huge deferments and loopholes, mostly based on college attendance (look at Cheney, and yes Clinton).

Of couse, the upshot was that the Force in Vietnam was very heavily black and poor. IIRC, the number of blacks in Vietnam was twice or more than the number of blacks in society at large.

In the early 70's there was a successful push to dramatically restructure the draft so that most of the deferments were eliminated, making a lot more people (mostly upper income types for whom a Harvard education was not a strain) eligible. They went to a fairly simple lottery system, based on birthdays. IIRC, the war ended shortly (a couple of years) after that.

The fact it, an all-voluntary military will never be able to sustain current operations. If this is to continue, a draft will be required. If they implement the draft, however, the demonstrations will increase dramatically, and the already fading support for the war will melt away almost completely. There will always be a few idiots out there, like the Jack Black character in Mars Attacks.

[AndyTiedye]

21. That is Rather the Point. Their "Current Operations" Should Not be Sustained

and are utterly unsustainable anyway -- purely from a financial point of view, even if you have an unlimited pool of conscripts.
You still have to pay them, feed them, clothe them, give them guns and all that other warrior stuff.

Before Bush** started this Iraq war, the services had more volunteers than they needed.

[RedCappedBandit]

5. I have a better idea

How about all the politicians in the world get together and kill eachother. That way, we wont have to deal with their shit anymore.

Better than sending kids to do their dirty work for them.. no?

Or: People who "support" the war can go fight in it. Everyone else can do their own thing. Hmm?

(Yes, i'm aware my ideas aren't realistic.)

[SoCalDem]

6. I LIKE that idea.. Send all the politicians to an island somewhere

arm them all and drop food on them occasionally..

and then leave them there :)

forever:)

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. I like your idea! Especially the part about people who support the war can go fight it.

No Wars and NO DRAFT! A draft just makes it easier for the blood thirsty, power hungry, war mongers to continue their never ending wars. NO THANKS!

[TahitiNut]

47. How about we only draft people from families that can AFFORD their health care if injured??

Hell .... that solves two problems, right there.

:evilgrin:

[meldroc]

13. Ick. Pull the .mil out of Iraq and we won't need a draft.

I'm sorry, but the draft smacks too much of slavery.

[TahitiNut]

18. Super. Now UNTIL THAT HAPPENS ... let's share the burdens.

:shrug:

[AndyTiedye]

26. A Draft Would Allow Them To Stretch the Occupation Out for Years, Like Vietnam

[TahitiNut]

31. It'll go on until WE the PEOPLE make it stop.

Period. Unless and until the people stand up and step out to STOP this, it'll go on - until the next time and the next time and the next time. ONe thing was absolutely assured in 1973 when they sold the bullshit 'volunteer' military on gullible idiots: the draft will not be used to mobilize public opinion. Out of sight out of mind ... let George do it ... politics as a spectator sport. When people give over their own governance to others and stop participating, this is what we get. And deserve.

[SoCalDem]

32. Yep.. ending the draft was really about ending the PROTESTS

Once there was 'voluntary" service, huge masses of people could not get all that angry & march on the White House ...since, if their boy was in the army, it was HIS choice..now wasn't it ?

Republican politicians are crafty devils..

[TahitiNut]

34. It was a one-two step.

The (small-d) democratic left ensured that the draft was equitable and put a halt to the Cheney-type deferments. It was AMAZING how quickly the Viet Nam war got shut down as soon as that happened. Then, the corporatist (MIC, actually) deactivated the draft and said "goody, goody" (alog with some deluded fools on the left) ... let's build bigger bombs and "force multipliers" and increase the coercion the economically disadvantaged. Voila!

They're (the MIC) not fools. The reason they adopt strategies of bombing entire villages rather than using infantry is that they don't have the overwhelming numbers of infantry to do the surgical job of killing the combatants and not killing the women and children. (The 'laboratory' for this strategy is Israel. Surprise. Surprise.) An overwhelmingly-equipped military machine can thumb its nose at the "collateral damage" ... and earn profits for the industrial arm of the MIC at the same time.

It's still about "body counts" ... but we only count our own. The ratio of 3,400 to 650,000 is the "kill ratio" ... and that's the centuries-long mentality of war. As long as we have airplanes and bombs and apache helicopters and missiles and other stand-ff weaponry, we can murder MILLIONS before we decimate our own "kids."

So, the notion that a draft merely enables war is total nonsense. It's the PEOPLE who enable it ... by malicious neglect and sloth. If we get to the point that the 'leaders' can wage war against the will of the people, we're lost. Draft or no draft.

At the same time ... we MUST be willing to have nonviolent civil disobedience be met with deadly police force. Until we're willing to have our protesting bodies litter the streets bleeding and dying, the people won't wake up. (That's where I can 'invest' my aged carcass. When it happens, I'll be there.)

[Phredicles]

14. A draft = a more politically powerful military and more wars.

The Pentagon has too much influence as it is. A draft would give it much, much more.

[Imagevision]

17. If there was a draft, the people wouldn't buy it, protests would be 60's style Bush's

war support be nil, impeachment would center back on going to war under fabricated and false pretenses...
I believe it would bring the troops home sooner rather then later.

[AndyTiedye]

24. We Already Have Protests Like That. What Has Changed Since the 60's is the Media

The Repiglican media downplays protests. They get little coverage on TV.
Mostly you hear the Repiggie talking points passed off as news.

[AndyTiedye]

19. Karl Rove Would LOVE to Have the Democrats Commit Electoral Suicide by Enacting the Draft!

The Repiglicans would sweep the 2008 elections if we did that.
Then they'd have it all -- total control of the government AND
the power to conscript us at will to fight their wars.

Make no mistake, PNAC's plans include a draft,
in fact they require the militarization of the entire country.
They want the draft, but they don't want the electoral fallout to fall on them.

[originalpckelly]

20. I think you're right. The draft prevented both the Korean and Vietnam wars...

and conscription in general kept the Israelis from invading Lebanon (how many times?)

I think it's a wonderful idea, because it will actually prevent wars. I mean, yes, there will be more people trained to kill other people, and yes, the government will have the power to send more people to die, but that's not going to increase the number of wars we have.

I don't know who couldn't be opposed to this idea. I think we should keep the same age range that we have right now as well, 18-42, and if someone is healthy over 42 they ought to fight in the wars as well. No reason that kids ought to get themselves killed, everyone needs to take part.

[NNN0LHI]

41. Snicker n/t

[Selatius]

22. I would not support the draft unless the federal government was dissolved.

If you find such a statement illogical, then good, you've run into the key problem with the draft in America.

The US government is, in practicality, and imperial government. Instead of vast colonial possessions under its power/influence, its power is derived instead from economic domination of the 3rd world in the name of profit and power. It serves Wall Street as much if not more so than Main Street.

The only way I would support mandatory military service is if the US government were abolished and reinstituted in such a way that it were more like Switzerland's government or Sweden's. Unlike our government, their government is less prone to blowing up women and children and making enemies out of the entire planet, the kind of enemies who become so desperate and hate-filled as to drive planes into office towers.

We, as citizens, are obliged to ensure that our fellow citizens are not exploited or used or destroyed in the name of imperial aspirations, that it is our goal to ensure that until such a time comes that people are confidant enough in their government that it won't throw away the lives of so many thousands of people, we must oppose any notion of the draft, lest we witness more sons and daughters wasted in the name of ambition and empire and domination and ultimately greed.

[originalpckelly]

23. Don't you want the Iraq war to end?

Then how can you be against a draft?

[Selatius]

25. That's a false dichotomy.

Arguing that being against the war automatically forces one to support a military draft.

[originalpckelly]

27. Why do you hate America?

Don't you want to kill people for God and country?

[AndyTiedye]

28. If They Can't Get Anyone to Fight There, It Will End

[diamidue]

44. Well said! n/t

[AndyTiedye]

30. What Do You Think the Mad Cowboys Would Do With Such a Huge Army?

Thinks he's on a mission from God.


Thinks he IS God.

[HughBeaumont]

35. There ain't gonna be no draft.

That would expose this "war" and the reasons behind it wide open.

You think the Failure Fuhrer wants to be saddled with that two ton elephant strapped to his shoulders? You think he wants to be known as "The President who Brought Back the Draft"? As far as actual noted accomplishments of his presidency that everyone (not just corporations and the wealthy) can look at and say "that helped a lot", the pickin's are slim if not there at all. Historians can only bullshit a "legacy" so much.

Oh he WANTS a draft. Believe me, he wouldn't lose a second night's sleep about obliterating thousands upon thousands of kids if it meant securing the key energy markets for his rich handlers.

But that's a risk not even the Grand Cyclops Cheney himself would take. It's a political albatross they would rather have around the necks of the Dems.

[LWolf]

38. A question:

What about conscientious objectors, pacifists, people who won't use violence as a solution to conflict? Can we make them serve in a military that will train them for combat, or to support combat?

While I see your point, I'm concerned about a mandatory, across-the-board service that may or may not accomodate the issues above, but would also end up training 100% of the nation's future voters to accept and support military solutions. I'd really like to see us evolve beyond that.

I wouldn't allow anyone to make such service mandatory for me, or for my sons. Any effort to do so would be met with active resistance.

I'd love to send all the men and women in the wh and congress who vote for, and therefore choose, military action for others to the front lines for the duration of any conflict. I can't, though, in good conscience, usurp the free will of others to determine their own path.

[SoCalDem]

39. The "draft" would naturally involve many jobs..not all military

Even within militaries, there are office jobs that require no armament.

[LWolf]

48. Of course.

If a person's belief system excludes military action as an acceptable response to conflict, it might exclude working in a support/service capacity to the military, as well.

I am more concerned with the idea that any kind of service can be conscripted, rather than freely given. Encouraging some form of public service, recognizing it, rewarding it...I can support all of that. There are many kinds of public service that have nothing to do with the military, as well; plenty of places for supporters of non-violent action to serve. That still leaves the individual with free will. I'd prefer people who serve by choice, rather than indentured servitude.

[SoCalDem]

49. The attitude of "others, freely giving" is what's got us where we are today

"some people" want "others" to do the heavy lifting.

This ain't Utopia, and there are problems that need to be shared by EVERYONE.

The whole "underclass" mentality is why we have such a tiered society and a lot of strife between the "classes".

We want petroleum products, be we don't want to live near a refinery

We want food, but we don't want to pay enough to people who must actually work the fields.

We want resources that belong to other countries, but we want others to fight to get those resources for us.

We want clean air & water, but we seem to keep "selecting" the very people who work against those goals.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

40. But what of those with other priorities?

And what of those with zits on their asses?

Surely you wouldn't be so cruel as to force children such as those to take basic military training?

Dayum, you're cold...

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Yes I would

hell I'll even volunteer to get back in uniform and be their personal hell, err DI