Duke Players Sympathy

[Hosnon]

These individuals seem to be innocent of the crime alleged...

I really need to see some sympathy for these individuals...

[Hosnon]

1. Come on DU...

[Syrinx]

2. I have sympathy for them n/t

[bliss_eternal]

3. Do a search and look around the boards...

...you'll find plenty of support for them.

[Hosnon]

4. Thanks. I'm sure it's here. I've been MIA for a bit.

I'm having a theoretical crisis of sorts...

[barb162]

5. I have sympathy for them and also their parents

[pop goes the weasel]

6. well, I feel sorry for them

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept Americans across the political spectrum don't seem to get anymore, especially if the charge is at all related to sex. I wonder if it would be possible for both accuser and defendant in sex-crime cases to have their identities protected from the press until the verdict is delivered by a jury, in the hopes that no one would end up being unfairly dragged through the mud.

[Syrinx]

7. That's a good idea

I thought this case was fishy from the start. And it seemed hypocritical for there to be a blackout on the identity of the alleged victim, while the accused were plastered across TV screens 24/7.

I hope the players sue Nifong for a whole lot of money and win.

[Breeze54]

12. There's a good reason for protecting the names of victims of rape

But when it came out that this woman was lying, then she stopped being a rape victim.
I don't agree with outing the rape victim's name though, even if it is public record.

Shame Is For Criminals

By Jo-Ann Armao
Saturday, April 14, 2007; Page A19

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041301873.html

snip-->

"The discussion in newsrooms about whether to name this woman who was not raped
has reignited the debate about whether the media should continue their long-standing
practice of not naming victims of sexual crimes even though their names are a matter
of public record."

[Syrinx]

13. I'm not saying that a rape victim's name should be made public

But why should the names of the accused be made public, if their accuser isn't also identified?

It's a double standard.

In this particular case, it protected the criminal and persecuted the innocent. And there are a lot of cases like this.

[silverojo]

22. Because rape is a different kind of crime

You've been violated, scarred, and you're terrified. The last thing you need is for your name to be made public so the media can start a feeding frenzy.

Her accusers know her name, and will face her in court, as the law demands.

And, quite frankly, given the company these guys were keeping..."they asked for it", LOL. Seriously, if you don't want to get slapped with such an accusation, then lead a clean life. (Most) women know better than to jog in a dangerous part of the city; similarly, men should avoid getting caught in situations where they can be accused of rape.

Men think they're totally safe, just because they're stronger than women...they need to wake up to the fact that they can become victims, too, so they need to be just as careful as women have to.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. "Careful" how?

You've been violated, scarred, and you're terrified. The last thing you need is for your name to be made public so the media can start a feeding frenzy.

Her accusers know her name, and will face her in court, as the law demands.

And, quite frankly, given the company these guys were keeping..."they asked for it", LOL. Seriously, if you don't want to get slapped with such an accusation, then lead a clean life. (Most) women know better than to jog in a dangerous part of the city; similarly, men should avoid getting caught in situations where they can be accused of rape.

Men think they're totally safe, just because they're stronger than women...they need to wake up to the fact that they can become victims, too, so they need to be just as careful as women have to.

A woman can take a number of common-sense precautions to reduce her risk for being raped. The Lacrosse team could be less jackass-ish, true, but what advice would you give men to wake them up to the protect themselves from false accusations?

Advice to "lead a clean life" is pretty incomplete, and I notice that you don't appear to give similar advice to women. (Just perhaps, exotic dancer is a poor career choice if safety is a primary consideration)

Justice would have been better served if assumptions weren't made. Those assumptions are implicit in concealing the name of the accuser and publicising the name of the accused. Both parties should be anonymous or neither should.

[pnwmom]

69. Your argument is exactly the same one that people use who blame women

for being raped.

"Seriously, if you don't want to , then lead a clean life."

Women shouldn't have to be angels to avoid getting blamed for their own rape.
Men shouldn't have to be choirboys to avoid false prosecution for rape.

A friend of mine was stabbed by a stranger while jogging on our college campus. She, like any rape victim, felt "violated, scarred, and terrified." But that didn't mean she could press charges while keeping her identity confidential. I don't know why we should have this special exception for rape anymore. To me, it simply reinforces the perception that there is something especially shameful about being raped.

[pnwmom]

9. I'm not sure that would serve justice in the end.

Sometimes evidence only comes out the public learns about the case. For example, there have been cases where, after a rape is charged, other women come forward to testify to their own rape by the defendant. This wouldn't happen if the defendant's identity was kept secret.

But rape has less stigma today than it did when confidentiality laws were first put in effect. People are far less likely to blame the victim than in decades past. I'm not convinced any more that rape should be singled out as the only type of assault requiring that the victim's identity be kept confidential.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. In this case the criminals identity was kept secret, and the victims publicized.

I can see the logic of your viewpoint.

For that logic to have been useful in this case, it would have been necessary to reveal the identity of the accuser so that any hypothetical previous history of false accusations or emotional disturbance (as other posters on this topic have postulated, and thereby excused her false accusations) might have come to light.

Initially, it seems fair to assume the innocence of both parties. If past sexual or credibility history of the parties in question is relevant to seeking justice, then publicity might be justified.

[pnwmom]

8. They don't seem to be innocent

They ARE innocent. They're as innocent of those charges as you are or I am, even if there never will be a jury trial for any of us.

That's the message that the Attorney General was sending the other day. The indictment never should have gone forward and the case should never have been prosecuted, because there was never any evidence supporting the accuser's constantly changing stories, and there was plenty of evidence contradicting her.

I have felt a great deal of sympathy for these families ever since the DNA evidence came out last spring, followed by the information that the accuser failed to identify her attackers in her first two attempts, and that the third photo line-up failed to follow proper procedure -- followed by the information that all three students had voluntarily taken and passed lie detector tests.

And now it turns out that when Nifong went to the grand jury for indictments, he already knew that the accuser had DNA from several unidentified men on her body. Can you imagine any grand jury deciding to indict three men for rape after being told that 1) no DNA from the defendants was found, and 2) DNA from several other unidentified men was found in her body and underwear? If the jury believed she had been raped, wouldn't they have wanted the prosecution to figure out who belonged to all that unidentified DNA?

Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of DUers who think that because many freepers have supported the Duke students all along, we have to automatically take the opposite position. In other words, if they say 2 + 2 = 4, then we have to scream, no, it's NEGATIVE FOUR. I don't think this is a freeper vs. progressive issue, I think it's a constitutional issue. When we toss away the presumption of innocence, this is the kind of situation we end up in -- with people like Nifong abusing the system. You can bet he's been doing it all along. Thanks to this case, though, I think his day is over.

[Goblinmonger]

31. Innocent is not a legal term

and I'm not sure why the AG used it.

Do I think those guys did this? I don't think they did. But as far as the court is concerned, they are not guilty. Innocent is never something declared by the judicial branch.

[pnwmom]

44. The A.G. used it quite deliberately. This case didn't go to court,

so it doesn't matter that it is something never declared by the judicial branch.

Obviously, the Attorney General decided it was within his authority.

He's going to be on 60 minutes on Sunday. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say.

[Goblinmonger]

68. Not trying to be an asshole

but you say "it doesn't matter that it is something never declared by the judicial branch" and then you say "the Attorney General decided it was within his authority." His authority stems from the judicial branch.

Again, I'm not piping in about their guilt, but to claim they are innocent because the AG said so is not a legal finding. The charges were dropped. That's it. They could have done the crime or not, the state just doesn't have the evidence or the good faith to continue. Makes no statement on innocence.

[pnwmom]

70. I think you're splitting hairs, not being an asshole.

How about this formulation:

Those students are as innocent of raping and assaulting the accuser as you are or I am. No court is ever going to find either of us innocent, either.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Don't think so.

Here's a lovely email sent before the party by one of those fine, upstanding gentlemen, Ryan McFadyen:

tommrow night, after tonights show, ive decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. all are welcome.. however there will be no nudity. i plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex.. all in besides arch and tack please respond.


You were saying?

[Ignacio Upton]

11. He wasn't one of the accused

And did every member on the team (except for the lone black player) have to get DNA swabbing? If there was DNA to be found from a team member other than Finnerty, Seligmann or Evans, then Nifong would have indicted that player anyway.

[bliss_eternal]

14. self delete...

.

[pnwmom]

17. Yes, all 46 team members gave DNA, and all were negative.

The only DNA found in the woman or her underwear came from two (or possibly 3) men she's acknowledged having sex with, as well as several other unidentified men. Oh yes -- and a lab employee. Apparently the test is so sensitive that a single loose cell can yield DNA.

[pnwmom]

18. That vile email was NOT written by any of the accused, as you probably know.

It was an idiotic attempt at satirical humor, based on the film American Psycho, which several of the students had seen.

Nifong publicized that email AFTER the accuser had already ruled out McFadyen as one of her attackers, and after he had also been ruled out by his DNA. The only logical conclusion is that he released the email then as part of his ongoing effort to inflame public opinion against the entire team of "hooligans."

http://durhamwonderland.blogspot.com/2006/09/mysteries-of-mcfadyen-e-mail.html

From the history professor K.C. Johnson's well-informed blog:

A key turning point in media coverage of the lacrosse case came on April 5, with the release of Ryan McFadyen’s “strippers” e-mail. We know now that the email–while disgusting–played off a scene in American Psycho (a pretty vile film, but one featured in several Duke classes). At the time, though, most journalists interpreted McFadyen’s words literally. CBS described the document as “a lacrosse player's e-mail rant about killing strippers and cutting their skin off in his Duke University dorm room.” The N&O approvingly quoted Duke student Simone Randolph, who reasoned, “You can’t say somebody’s guilty based off the e-mail, but it certainly does not help their case.” Duke president Richard Brodhead responded by demanding lacrosse coach Mike Pressler’s resignation and suspending McFadyen.

SNIP

Police served a sealed warrant on McFadyen on March 28. Yet Nifong didn’t approve making* public the warrant’s details until April 5. What happened between those two dates?
Nifong learned that the DNA evidence he had promised would “immediately rule out” any innocent people had, in fact, exonerated all the lacrosse players;
Nifong ordered the Durham Police to construct a lineup that violated their own procedures in multiple ways.
In that lineup, the accuser didn’t recognize McFadyen. So whatever purpose Nifong had in making the e-mail public, providing information to Durham citizens about a possible suspect was not among his concerns.

So why, then, did Nifong approve making the e-mail public after McFadyen no longer was a suspect? And why did he do so in a context-free manner? Could he have hoped to inflame community sentiment against the lacrosse team, so as to encourage people to overlook the DNA results–or discourage them from looking too closely at the procedurally dubious manner through which he managed to obtained indictments before the May 2 primary?

-----------

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

52. Shock humor.

Doesn't bother me a bit.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

73. Oookay....n/t

[nam78_two]

15. Oh sheesh

Are there no bigger issues than this around....?

I really need to see more outrage against the criminal adminstration that is in charge right now...

I don't accuse/support the players because I think there are a lot more important things going on right now than the latest distraction Nancy Grace and the rest of the M$M think we need to be occupied with. I am thinking about the Iraqis whose country we have RAPED right now...

[pnwmom]

19. I assume you must be writing this same post on the hundreds of other

threads that aren't related to the Iraqi war?

Or is it just the civil rights of the Duke students that you don't care about? Or the significance of the presumption of innocence under our system of justice?

[nam78_two]

20. I am not sure? Are there many many threads on the civil rights

of the many many African American men who are wrongfully accused and jailed who NEVER get this kind of coverage in the media after their vindication here :shrug:....?

Actually if the Duke kids are innocent (not been following the trial since I don't let the media select for me what I follow, so I am not suggesting they are not. I just don't know the details ) I am very sorry for them and anyone else wrongfully accused of rape. Its just that there are many others who are in similar situations who we are not apologizing to and I am not sure why this case is different from all the others...for example this one:

http://www.scsun-news.com/news/ci_5625045

It has taken nearly 25 years, but with the assistance of DNA testing, the men — all black Americans — are proving they are innocent. Two were freed from prison. A third was exonerated in March, years after serving his sentence. On Monday, Giles is about to clear his name, becoming the 13th man from Dallas County to prove with genetic testing that he was wrongly imprisoned.

Giles, who spent 10 years in prison, is seeking to vacate his 1983 conviction. New evidence suggests that another man — also named James Giles — committed the rape. Dallas County prosecutors more than two decades ago knew about the other James Giles, who lived across the street from the victim, but never told Giles' defense.

I lost everything in the world,'' said Giles, 53. I just thank God we finally got someone to see that I was the wrong guy.





These people years behind bars for a crimes they didn't commit-it was not just an accusation. I am sure someone could provide the statistics, but I have seen many a study talking about how disproportionately African Americans are accused and even jailed for crimes they did not commit.


So I am having a hard time seeing why we are cherry-picking this one case (which the media made so high profile) as the one which we are all supposed to have so much national shame over? Our priosn system is so shameful ingeneral aside from this case.

Why this one? Are we having apology/condolence threads here for all the other cases like this? If not, I would assume its would be because we are puppets of the M$M and decide that only cases of this nature that they choose to give attention to are worthy of our attention.

[pnwmom]

42. The reason this case is being "cherry-picked" now is because

it has been cherry picked from the very beginning. It's just that the media's viewpoint has taken an about face -- at long last.

The national media, from coast to coast, spent six weeks last spring broadcasting Nifong's hateful lies. For six weeks before any defendants were even indicted, Nifong gave scores of interviews, describing in graphic, lurid detail a gruesome, hate-filled, racially based crime against a black women. During all this time, no one could defend themselves -- no one could even guess who she would decide to name as her attackers.

People were holding marches and vigils all over Durham. Wanted posters depicting all 46 white members of the LAX team were hung all over campus. People trailed members of the team screaming threats at them.

So the case made big news. The media ate it up: evil rich white guys attack poor black woman.

The only problem: there wasn't a bit of evidence. Nifong, the DA, had the DNA evidence that eventually freed the students, and he had it even before he got the indictments. But he chose to collude with the lab director to hide it. Because it didn't suit his purposes. You see, he was in a hotly contested primary election campaign in a city where the majority of voters would be black. And he was a relatively unknown white guy running against a popular African-American woman with 4 times as much money to spend as he did. But by going on TV and giving all those horrified interviews, he made a name for himself as the poor black woman's champion. And he came from behind to win the election.

So if there is a lot of media attention about this now, it's because these students were ripped to shreds in the national media last spring. To bury the fact that they have finally been vindicated would be grossly unfair.

You make a valid point about the other unknown people who are rotting in prison because of DA's like this. If you had watched the students' press conference, you would know that two of them spoke to this very issue. They are well aware and quite concerned about all the others who -- without their resources -- are falsely imprisoned. The fact that it took more than a year to end this case, and millions of dollars in attorneys fees, shows how broken the system is.

Who knows how many other times Nifong abused the system before this case brought his tactics to light? But thanks to this case, Nifong won't be able to hurt anyone else. I hope they make an example of him -- and send a message to D.A.s everywhere.

[bananas]

16. better yet...

k&r this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=227x964

[Dutch]

21. I sympathise withy them fully.

They were accused of a crime of which they were completely innocent and had their lives completely disrupted over it. There was a time when that was enough to gain the sympathies of almost all liberals. Apparently, times have changed, at least for some.

[LisaL]

24. Well, they are rich white men after all.

I got news, so are John Kerry, John Edwards and Al Gore.

[tammywammy]

32. And mostly because they had money were they able to fight the DA

That's what's sad. So many other have been in their situtation and not being able to afford the best representation they're in jail. (Like the Tulia case)

This was a horrible injustice.

[pnwmom]

46. That's right, tammywammy. You can bet Nifong has put other people

in jail who didn't belong there.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. You don't tell me who to sympathize with, got it?

When the Duke boys are subjected to the same scrutiny of their own behavior that rape victims are (with the not-so-subtle implication that they deserved it) I'll consider elevating their plight in my priorities. Has anyone asked the defendants what they were thinking going to a party like that? How much did they drink? What were they wearing? What were they THINKING inviting strange women to perform for them? Weren't they kind of, you know, ASKING to be falsely accused? Hey, if they'd gone to library that night instead of a frat party alcohol and strippers, they probably wouldn't have gotten themselves into that predicament, now would they?

Nah, the poor babies have gotten a public apology from the prosecutor and the AG, done the talk show round, and there's probably a movie of the week deal in the works. So no sympathy from me.

[LisaL]

26. Adult entertainment is the very devil, I see.

Off to the library with you all.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

27. Obviously you don't grasp the meaning of my post

Off to Irony 101 with you.

[LisaL]

28. I grasp it perfectly well.

You are claiming that because these men didn't behave in a way you seem to consider proper, it's their own darn fault they were accused of rape?
Isn't that it? If you meant something else, you expressed yourself very poorly.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

29. No, you read poorly. n/t

[LisaL]

30. Why don't you try and explain it better then?

What exactly did you mean by your post?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. What I mean is

When are cases like the Duke one going to be used to caution young men not to go out drinking or pick up women because it may lead to a false rape accusation? When is someone in the media going to ask what were those boys THINKING hiring strange women to perform at their party? What were they THINKING allowing the woman to perform when she was very likely intoxicated when she got there? Nope, you'll never hear any of that, hence my use of sarcasm. Do I think someone deserves a false accusation because of any of the above actions? Absolutely not. But do I agree with the OP's implication that I must sympathize with them? Sorry, but no.

These boys are getting more support than I've ever seen a rape victim (that is, one who isn't a child or a nun) get, on this board or anywhere else. They spent one night in jail. They are being lauded and feted by the media. I just saw one of those lawyer gasbags on CNN practically go apoplectic over what an outrage their treatment at the hands of that evil prosecutor was. Yes, it could have ended up a lot worse for them and if they're not guilty, I'm glad it didn't. But you'll have to forgive me for not joining the sympathy choir. I've read and heard commented more than once that people who are offended on behalf of the Rutgers team must also be offended for the Duke boys. Seriously. I just love when people tell me I can't be angry about A unless I'm also angry about B, don't you? Who is anyone to tell me what I need to sympathize or care about?

[smirkymonkey]

45. I'm with you - and the fact that I have know a lot of rich, white

sexist frat boys from Duke and other such Universities does nothing to steer me in the direction of having sympathy for this particular group either. I simply don't care about them. It's like you say. Most men - and women - don't have a lot of sympathy for drunken coeds who put them in a postion to get raped, so why should anyone waste their energy on a group of drunken frat boys who put themselves in a postion to get accused of rape. Both have their reputations ruined, both are probably emotionally scarred, the woman is probably a bit more traumatized.

The difference in this case is that the issue of money and privilege comes into play. I am still not convinced that the accuser was not paid off to recant and/or a crime was not covered up because money and power triumphed once again over the poor and nameless. The outpouring of sympathy on this board actually makes me sick, mostly becuase you would never see it if the situation was reversed - if the rape VICTIM was found out to have been telling the truth and the rapists were found guilty in a court of law. There would still be those crying foul.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

49. Being blamed, even partially, for what happened to you compounds the trauma

You're right about the reaction had the accuser been vindicated in the Duke case. There would be doubts aplenty about her story. She was a stripper, after all.

Also, if men were falsely accused at anywhere near the frequency with which women are raped, you'd think some of the cautions I facetiously mentioned in my post would be given in earnest to men. The fact that they're not tells me that people know that men really aren't in much danger of it.

[joshcryer]

57. This is about your *own* morality.

You're "better" than the rest if you sympathize with someone who puts themselves in a shitty situation. But you're not better if you cannot stay consistant.

You're picking and chosing. "Oh the rest of the world wouldn't care some girls who got raped in an obviously unsafe environemnt. Why should I care about some boys who got falsely accused in that same environment?"

The exact converse of this argument would be, "Oh the rest of the world wouldn't care if some guys got falsely accused in an obviously unsafe environment. Why should I care about some girls who got raped in an obviously unsafe environment?"

It's a completely inconsistant behavior.

[pnwmom]

64. It's hypocrisy. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

67. Here is my issue with this particular case:

A lot of people are just looking at the male/female dynamic of the case.

I am also looking at the power/privilege vs/ poor/downtrodden aspect and the white/black aspect of the case as well. Also, I went to a university that was similar to Duke (wealthy, privileged), I was in a sorority and although I was not raped, belive me, there is no such thing as a sweet, innocent little frat boy. Therefore, on a personal level, I can admit that they may not have been legally guilty of the crime, however I am having a very hard time coughing up any sympathy for them on a personal level.

The reason? I see this as another instance of the powerful vs. the powerless, with the powerful coming out on top as usual. The boys may very likely be completely innocent, but I know how things work for the very wealthy and they have ways of making even the most heinous crimes disappear and smearing the victim in the process. Let's just say I'm not taking the innocent verdict at face value. I also don't see it as black and white (pun not intended) - there was a certain amount of guilt on both sides and I don't like seeing the accuser being trashed all over again.

[pnwmom]

71. If you're trying to be fair, why do you keep calling them "frat boys"?

They were members of an athletic team, not frat boys. Do you understand the difference? Members of a team have to put in several hours every day in practice time, and they don't get to choose who else is on the team. A fraternity, by contrast, is a social group.

In order to maintain their excellent grades and do well in their varsity sport, these LAX students were all putting in tremendous amounts of work. It's demeaning to lump them in with frat boys who may share nothing more than a case of beer and a box of last year's tests.

And your analysis of this through the power/privilege prism is hardly unique. That's why these students have been condemned so strongly from the very beginning of the case. People across the media chose to frame it as "evil rich white powerful frat boys have their way with downtrodden black state university student and mother of two." And people like you (and me, in the first month) bought it.

[alarimer]

61. for every falsely accused frat boy there are many rich frat boys who did it and got away with it

Alex Kelley got away with it for a long, long time. As did Andrew Luster.

So, no sympathy here. They have so many more advantages than most.

[pnwmom]

65. Do you think these students benefited from the fact that

other people have gotten away with it? Their own trauma was real and personal to them -- it had nothing to do with Kelley or Luster.

I'd like to know how the accuser got away with stealing a taxi, and then driving that taxi drunk, and trying to use it to run over a policeman who was on foot. And she only got 2 years of probation! (I wonder if she has some connections in that town.) Lots of guilty people get away with lots of bad things.

But these three students went through hell for more than a year for going to a drinking party.

[pnwmom]

62. That is absolutely not true.

If the rape victim had been found to be telling the truth, and the students had gone to prison, I would have been relieved, because then I would have thought the rapists were getting what was coming to them.

Instead, after initially believing Nifong and the accuser, once the facts came out it became clear to me that innocent men were being railroaded. And I shifted my sympathy toward them -- the real victims of this case.

[pnwmom]

63. Whatever positive attention the students are getting now is nothing

compared to the vilification and the trauma that they have been subject to over the last year. Nothing.

But you're absolutely right, no one can tell you who to sympathize with. And on the other hand, people are free to point out hypocrisy when they see it.

And just so you know, ever since this case happened, I have been reminding my own sons to be very very careful about combining drinking and sex. Even if both the man and the woman are drinking, and sex is consensual, there is a chance that the woman could have regrets later and blame the guy. It's not worth taking a chance for either of them.

[flying_monkeys]

79. But having sympathy for the dukies doesn't mean you have LESS

sympathy for anyone else who needs it....


Is sympathy in small supply? Can't one (we?) have sympathy for *ALL* in need?

[Forkboy]

34. You're saying the victims asked for it.

And I'm hoping it's an attempt to point out the irony that that's what a lot of men do with rape victims.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

35. You got it. nt

[Forkboy]

36. Ok...whew.

I'm pretty slow sometimes so I'm glad I got it. :)

[LisaL]

37. I find her claims she is using sarcasm a little peculiar since

she is actually arguing these men don't deserve sympathy.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

41. Why?

I didn't say they don't deserve sympathy. I said they're not getting any from me. You can do what you want.

[joshcryer]

54. Do rape victims not deserve sympathy then?

I mean after all some of them are just ASKING FOR IT when they walk around all showing skin and such. /sarcasm

[pnwmom]

47. That's the whole point. If a woman isn't an angel, should she be blamed

for being raped? Or should we feel bad for her?

I'm sure you would say no, she shouldn't be blamed and yes, we should care about her. And so would I, emphatically.

By the same token, these three guys shouldn't be blamed for the trauma they're been put through for the past year -- the crime this rogue prosecutor committed against them -- simply because they aren't choirboys.

And don't tell me they haven't been traumatized. No human could fail to be traumatized at the thought of 30 years in prison, and these three saw enough of the system to realize that being railroaded for a crime they didn't commit was a real possibility.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

51. And just as plenty of people choose not to or can't sympathize with rape victims to this day

I choose not to, or possibly can't, sympathize with the Duke boys. Sympathy is an emotional reaction that cannot be compelled in someone simply because you think there's a valid case for it. My emotional reaction to seeing those frat boys get the kind of sympathy that I have NEVER seen shown to a - non child/virgin/nun/other category deemed worthy - rape victim is to be sickened.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Why do you expect better from "plenty of people" than from yourself?

When does bias become bigotry?

Perhaps part of the reason that you don't see similar sympathy to rape victims is because they're generally anonymous. These guys were on the cover of newsweek. Half the country would recognize them walking down the street as 'those duke rapo punks'.

[pnwmom]

60. When have DUers not responded with sympathy to a victim of rape?

When people here thought the stripper had been raped, they were extremely sympathetic. So much so, that as more and more of the details came out -- the fact that the DNA didn't match, the botched line-up, the lie detector tests, etc., etc. -- many still couldn't imagine that the accuser might not be telling the truth.

You act as if somehow you've been posting on a freeper board where people have been viciously attacking the accuser. The most I've seen people do here is point out all the holes in the case.

I've never seen a DUer that believes, with regard to rape, that we should be "blaming the victim."

[mrreowwr_kittty]

72. Plenty of times

They get deleted pretty quickly. Which is good thing, but unfortunately it does happen, even here. Usually they run along the lines of "You can't wave your goods in front of a man and expect him not to try to get him some of that". Again, it's the victims who are not children/virgins/nuns/properly non-slutty who are the recipients of these comments.

[pnwmom]

74. Can't you see that what you're doing is just the flip side of that?

That blaming these victims of false prosecution for not being choirboys is the same as blaming women rape victims for not being angels?

I don't care how much of a "pig" a guy is or how "slutty" a woman is -- if they are a victim of a criminal assault -- either judicial or physical -- we shouldn't be blaming them.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

77. I agree that they shouldn't be blamed

It's a moot point however, because guys never do get blamed for it. Until they start getting blamed, like the rape victims, I'm not going to equate their problems to those of rape victims. Sorry, I'm just not. As for the Duke boys, not only are they pigs but they didn't have their lives ruined. The 'assault' they suffered at the hands of the judicial system was really pretty mild, despite all the bleating. They spent one night in jail and the charges have been dropped. The AG's office and the university are falling over themselves to apologize to them. Had they been thrown in jail to rot that would be one thing. But they weren't. They'll be fine. They're going to be on 60 Minutes tonight! How many gang rape victims do you suppose would be willing to make the talk show round to discuss their experience?

Obviously whatever wrong was done to those boys should be rectified but it certainly doesn't merit the kind of coverage it's been getting. The timing of the verdict was convenient for the media to juxtapose it with the Imus situation and distract from and minimize the issues this country still has with racism and misogyny.

Finally, when men are warned about certain actions of theirs making them vulnerable to accusations of rape, with the same regularity that women are warned to use caution to avoid rape, I will believe that these false accusations are as prevalant as many (including a poster on DU who cited RW sites claiming up to 50% of rape accusations are false) would have us believe. Until that happens, I'm going to take them for the isolated incidents that they are. Unfortunately this Duke case is going to be used for years to come (including on DU) to derail discussions about rape with "But a lot of times women lie about it!" And that's not going to be helpful to anybody.

[pnwmom]

78. They spent a year of their lives being blamed, and many people will

blame them forever, as you very well know. This is going to end up in their obituaries.

You're right, they didn't go to jail. But they've been through hell. They are human, you know. The prospect of going to prison was terrifying for them.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/11/60minutes/main2673456.shtml

"For Seligman, Finnerty and Evans it was, to say the least, a relief, after 395 days of hell.

"The possibility of going to jail for 30 years was very real. That was very real for us," Seligmann tells Stahl.

"And you thought about it … have you seen yourself in a prison cell for 30 years?" Stahl asks.

"You know, I pictured how they'd react when they said guilty, you know, having jurors say guilty. And to know everything was taken away from me for nothing," Seligmann says. "And one of my biggest fears was that it would go to trial and that it would be a hung jury and I would be stuck in limbo for the rest of my life."

________


I'm a mother of a college age son. If I had had to spend a year living under the threat of my son going to prison for thirty years. . . well, I'm not sure my health would have lasted that long. I can't imagine the stress those families must have been under. You seem to be blithely unaware that if the judge in the case hadn't been changed, and if Nifong hadn't stupidly offered up the lab director to testify without preparing him in advance, the outcome might have been very different than it was. The chance that these three could have been falsely imprisoned was quite real.

You want to know why the case merits the coverage it has been getting? Because it's needed to counter all the mountains of negative coverage against the students when this story swept the country last spring. "Evil rich white boys brutally assault poor black downtrodden mother." It's only fair to give equal coverage to the declaration of their innocence.

Before my son ever went to college I talked with him seriously about the need to make sure that any sex he engaged in was completely consensual. They've also talked about that in his high school health classes. I don't know why you're so sure that boys aren't warned about that.

But I do agree with you that this case has made it much worse for real rape victims everywhere. But the blame for this rests entirely on the false accuser and Mike Nifong.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

75. Here's an interesting (loooong) thread I found

Read it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x957110#961737

Some pretty illuminating posts on there about the Duke case and rape in general. Again, the really egregious ones were deleted but you can see a wide variance in perceptions about how a victim's actions factor into rape.

[pnwmom]

76. I see a long, tedious, hairsplitting discussion on

topics such as whether a person can ever be justified in using a term for rape like "non-consensual sex" or whether "sex" by definition must always be consensual; and whether rape is only about power, or, from the rapist's perspective, if it can be a mixture of power and sex. In other words, from the course catalogue: Sociology 203, Deviant Sexuality: Sex or Power?

I don't see a single person who is justifying rape or implying that women enjoy being raped or deserve to be raped, or any post that isn't sympathetic toward victims.

I also see very little about the Duke case, but here's one. Is this the kind of thing you found so upsetting:

Edited on Wed Apr-19-06 06:27 AM by SammyBlue

"I'm seeing in the mirror someone who just flat

doesn't give two shits about this entire case.

This is only being blown up because it happened at Duke. If this happened in some trailer park, we'd hear nothing about it.

But because interscholastic athletes at a very posh and expensive private University may be involved, it's all over the headlines.

If she got raped (not saying one way or another), prosecute. If the Duke players were involved (not saying one way or another), crucify. But, frankly (as Rhett Butler would say) "frankly, my dear, I give a damn."

[Balbus]

33. I have extreme sympathy for them.

And I hope charges are brought against the person who brought these false accusations against these young men and that the prosecutor receives severe punitive action for the case he tried to present.

[MadHound]

39. I'm glad that proper justice was done for them

However I will save my sympathy for the thousands of people who are likewise innocently accused, but do not have the financial resources to effectively fight the charges. They are put in jail, wrongfully imprisoned for either part of their term, or more likely all of their term, their only crime being that they didn't have enough money to properly maintain their innocence and freedom.

We live with a two tier system of justice. The Duke boys benefitted from having access to the top tier, good for them. But sadly, most of us don't have such access, and thus have to suffer at the hands of a lower tier of justice. So while I'm happy the Duke boys got off, I have little sympathy for them. They remain free, with their reputations fairly intact, and they might even make a cool buck or two from TV or book deals. Meanwhile, thousands will continue to rot in prison, equally as innocent, just not as equally rich.

[pnwmom]

48. Did you know that the accused Duke students made this very point

in the press conference?

I think our sympathies should apply to all who are unjustly accused. It's not a zero-sum situation. And you can't tell me that these boys and their families haven't suffered deeply over the past year with the threat of 30 years in prison hanging over their heads -- knowing that the threat of being rail-roaded was all too real. As innocent as the students were, there was no guarantee that their lawyers were going to be able to get them off.

You should read what some of their attorneys have to say about all this. They are certainly good lawyers, but part of this came down to sheer luck -- and/or Nifong's stupidity. If Nifong hadn't brought the lab director with him to a certain hearing, and stupidly offered him up (unprepared) for examination, the lab director's admissions to conspiring with Nifong might never have been made. And that led directly to Nifong's eventually handing the case over to the state.

[MedleyMisty]

40. I can play the same game

Before I give sympathy to the Duke players, I want to see threads expressing equal sympathy for all the victims of rape.

Nothing wrong with expressing regret that the accusation may have been false. But seriously, some people appear to be going overboard and behind their words you can hear, "Hah, see, women are really just asking for it or lying about it to manipulate men."

[Madspirit]

43. They may not be guilty

...but they are hardly innocent. I actually have friends who are hookers, pole dancers, strippers and so I have no problem with this form of CONSENSUAL adult entertainment and no judgment. I am glad they aren't going to prison for a crime they did not commit but I will sob for them when I see an equal amount of outrage for rape victims and those incarcerated but innocent who couldn't afford fancy-assed lawyers. I will sob for them when I see people just as upset when a sex worker IS abused, raped, threatened, harassed, maligned, etc. These boys will be fine, write books, get movie deals, be offered jobs by Good Ol' Boys in Fortune 500 Companies, etc. They will be fine. I doubt they need my tears.
Lee

[pnwmom]

50. Progressives don't believe in blaming the victim. A woman shouldn't be

blamed for being raped no matter what her job is or no matter where she goes or what clothes she's wearing. And I've never seen women being blamed for being raped on DU. Have you?

By the same token, a man shouldn't be blamed for his own false prosecution for rape, simply because he hasn't been a choirboy. Unfortunately, I've seen lots of DUers take that position.

These students don't need anyone's tears, but I think they deserve to stop hearing that "something" must have happened -- just because this woman said so.

I think they deserve to be able to put this behind them. And I think they deserve apologies from Nifong, the Duke administration, and much of the media for how they milked the coverage of this case -- for ratings, not truth.

[joshcryer]

53. I read your nick as 'pwnmom.'

Which is pretty darn appropriate seeing as how you've been pwning people left and right in this thread. :)

*pwn = own / pwning = owning

[pnwmom]

66. LOL.

I can't help it. I've got a couple of sons of my own, and there's nothing like having a child of the opposite sex to teach you everything you really needed to know.

My husband's views have also greatly expanded as a result of our having a daughter.

And I've been feeling for those three families all year. I can well imagine the trauma that those mothers have been going through. Money doesn't insulate anyone from pain.

[SoCalDem]

55. These "boys" will land on their feet.

i doubt that any of them missed their big opportunity to play professional lacrosse..

they'll graduate, their daddies will set them up and they'll do fine.

I can only hope they will caution their own frat-boy sons about the danger in whooping it up with exotic-dancer parties & booze :)

[mondo joe]

80. I have sympathy for anyone falsely accused. That they had the resources to defend

themselves is immaterial.