Is it now ok to call undocumented workers "illegal" at DU?

[asdjrocky]

I'm really not trying to call people out, but I've seen two ops so far today using the word "illegals" to describe an entire group of people.

I thought actions were illegal, not people. How can a person be illegal? If I run a red light, sell some pot to a friend or not pay all my taxes, am I an illegal?

I spoke up on it earlier and two different people saw no problem with it.

So tell me DU, is the term "illegal" racist, bigoted, or is it now acceptable to say in liberal circles?

I know I'll never use it.

[LWolf]

1. It's okay to run to the right these days, from what I can tell. nt

[asdjrocky]

5. No kidding.

It really makes me sick to see people use that word and call themselves liberal.

[ruggerson]

55. Obama used it last night

as far as I can recall, during the campaign he referred to them as "undocumented workers."

[LostinRed]

169. I believe it was a rhetorical point

using the language of your opponent.

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EndersDame]

2. But its Not Wet Back so it is ok

:sarcasm:

[LostInAnomie]

3. I never thought it wasn't OK.

They are illegally here. It's fine to call them illegal aliens.

People may not like the term but that doesn't make it untrue. I think most people making the "People can't be illegal" argument are being disingenuous for the purpose of a handy slogan, and are pretending to not know what "illegal" is shorthand for.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

18. Same here -

when I say "illegal," in reference to people who are here illegally, I'm getting my idea across.

That's the point of language, and the simpler the better.

Works for me. I never knew "illegal" was under scrutiny by the PC Corps....................................

[Joe the Revelator]

64. +1

[Kali]

190. because "illegal" has strong connotations of criminal misconduct

not having a fucking piece of paper giving you permission to be here is a civil offense and while "illegal" is technically correct, the connotations and implications of wrongdoing with the word "illegal" are much worse than the reality of the actual "crime".

[Dreamer Tatum]

235. That's your hangup

They're here illegally, therefore they are illegal aliens.

[Kali]

238. I do have a hangup about black and white thinking.

glad you don't have to bother your beautiful mind with complexities.

[Dreamer Tatum]

243. If I'm not with you, I'm against you, huh? nt

[Kali]

251. ...

:wtf: :shrug:

I have no idea what you mean by that. It would be the kind of thing said by someone unable to discern the difference between presence on this side of the border without official documents and armed robbery.

[Ian David]

4. Some people are just using lazy shorthand.

Personally, I prefer "undocumented," but occasionally find myself saying (or copy/pasting) "illegal" out of laziness or sloppiness, even though I don't believe we have an illegal worker problem, we have an illegal employer problem.

[sandnsea]

12. Me too, all of that n/t

[FLDCVADem]

13. I believe we have

an illegal worker problem that is caused by an illegal employer problem.

Fine the hell out of the employers and make it too expensive to make it worth hiring illegal aliens, and we won't need a fence because workers will know they won't be hired here.

[frylock]

34. word up

[Statistical]

40. This right here.

Except neither side wants that so it won't happen.

The republicans know big business needs cheap labor and the Democrats love the wedge issue to pound the Republicans with.

Nobody wants that to change (well at least nobody in power).

[FLDCVADem]

47. Well, if I were Queen for the day...

1. For every illegal immigrant that is found to be working for an employer, said employer would be fined the equivalent of one year's wages, including all applicable state, federal and FICA taxes as well as workman's comp and unemployement insurance premiums. Wages would be determined to be the controlling minimum wage (state or federal) plus $2/hour.

2. Employer fine would go into a fund for detection and enforcement purposes.

3. Illegal immigrant would be paid one years wages (please see above for wage calculation) minus applicable state and federal income taxes.

4. Illegal immigrant, with wages, would be sent home, with family.

Right now, fines, when applied are so small that they are seen as a cost of doing business. Employers need to know that we can put them OUT of business if they are caught. And with the fine structure outlined above, we'll have the money to truly enforce the law.

Rant over and crown turned in.

[sendero]

175. Exactly..

... Republicans like to whine about illegals but they secretly enjoy the cheap labor. They want to have it both ways but nobody gets to do that indefinitely.

The "illegal" problem could be solved in one month, put someone who hires them in jail. Problem solved.

[treestar]

245. Me too. I've used it today. I have no ill will towards the

undocumented. Just lazy.

[BlooInBloo]

6. I wouldn't use the term "illegals", but I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with...

"illegal immigrants", or "illegal aliens".

But then again, I am blessed enough to possess a passing familiarity with the English language, and some of the etymology of some of its words.

[JVS]

218. Same here

[sharp_stick]

7. Why not?

It's short, correct and it fits.

[asdjrocky]

8. No it doesn't.

It's a rw term. Look it up, a person can't be illegal.

[sharp_stick]

15. I generally use the term

illegal immigrant, I suppose that works a little better. Undocumented migrant just sounds far too PC and made up.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

19. The phrase is "illegal alien,"

and "illegal" is simply a shortened version of that phrase. Context is all.

You surely knew that. Playing dumb is a big waste of time, don't you think?

And the idea that words are "rw" is silly - words are whatever we want them to be, designed to convey ideas...............................

[asdjrocky]

20. I'm not playing dumb at all.

I simply don't approve of calling an entire group of people illegal. It's wrong, and if you don't think it's a rw meme, you should spend an hour or two watching Washington Journal.

I think it's wrong.

[LostInAnomie]

22. So you honestly don't know when people say "illegal" they mean illegal immigrant/alien?

I find that hard to believe.

[asdjrocky]

30. Where did I say I didn't know that's what they meant.

My, you are mean spirited. I've said several times it's wrong to classify a whole group of people as illegal.

I find you to have problems with reading comprehension.

[LostInAnomie]

45. If they are in this country illegally they are illegal immigrants by definition.

Apparently, you have problems with the English language.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

46. Hold up on calling anyone "mean spirited"

because your OP clearly states that you don't understand.

You do seem to have trouble with words, because claiming you "don't understand" means the same as not knowing what those words mean.

Your snark at the above poster was out of order and inaccurate. You seem to have trouble not only with reading comprehension, but with understand what you wrote, and - this is serious - understanding what you think.

Or don't think........................

[asdjrocky]

57. Thanks for your concern.

[musicblind]

256. You're the one who showed up with concern.

Illegal alien or immigrant is the technically correct term, and that is not coming from a xenophobic but a very progressive person who even wrote a song on why we should stop being so hypocritcal on illegal immigration.

I got this friend from mexico
where the music's soft and slow
America is all he knows
Got no other place to go

Is he stealing your nation?
Come lets ask the Indians
Cause the Indians had it first
No one ever had it worse

[asdjrocky]

59. Where does my op even use the word understand?

[cherokeeprogressive]

74. I'd say that's what it lacked. n/t

[asdjrocky]

75. Typical.

[Zomby Woof]

155. Not all illegals are "undocumented workers" either

Here in L.A., there are gangs (often extended family networks - think 'mafia') of illegals running drugs and causing all sorts of mayhem. Not all illegals are domestic workers or picking fruit in the valley. It's not only PC-bullshit to call them "undocumented workers", but a romanticized reduction of a very broad and practical term.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

163. Indeed -

the word "undocumented" suggests that the individual - and we're hardly talking about individuals, anyway - once had documents, but someone misplaced or lost them.

That's just inaccurate.

"Undressed" means I had clothes and then I took them off.

These illegals never had any kind of documentation. It's simply an attempt to make the guilty - and that's what they are - appear somehow less guilty, as if that were possible.

Either you're legal or you're not. If you're not, you're illegal. Or an illegal.

PC bullshit, you got that right. I'm all for people being treated well, and human rights for everyone, but pretending that someone isn't here illegally when, in fact, he is, is just nonsense.

Next thing, we'll be told that calling them "illegals" damages their "self esteem," and then, I swear, something's gonna get hurt or crushed.....................................

[Ghost in the Machine]

76. By your logic, it would be wrong to call a group prisoners "criminals" then, right?

If the group we're referring to is a group of people who entered this Country illegally, it's perfectly fine to classify them as 'illegals'. It's a descriptive word, nothing more.

What's the difference between classifying them as 'illegal' or 'undocumented'? :shrug:

[asdjrocky]

78. Tone.

[Confusious]

138. Well your tone

Is of a reactionary and I find it disturbing.

Are you the arbiter of tone now? All those who display the wrong tone shall be punished by asdjrocky!

[asdjrocky]

178. Where did I tell you what to do or say Confusious?

Show me. I asked for a dialog. I asked questions.

[TCJ70]

80. What's wrong is to assume someone is an illegal immigrant based on appearance or national origin...

...it is not wrong to use that word to reference the group of people who are illegal aliens or illegal immigrants.

[Threedifferentones]

250. So, you know we mean illegal immigrants when we say "illegals"

And you also know that by saying "illegals" we mean to call a person illegal.

Those are mutually exclusive, just like understanding or not. Despite what you say, clearly you do not understand.

[EndersDame]

77. When most people say illeagal they really mean wetback or dirty mexican

I really hate this crap. I was talking about how in the early days of swine flu a great number of Mexicans died and my co worker told me (a 1/2 mexican kid who is clearly brown) "good that means less of them will come up here" I really don't think that she views Mexicans as real human beings

[asdjrocky]

86. I can't believe the people here who don't seem to see this.

I'm honestly surprised at the snarkiness of it all.

[petronius]

134. It's not that people don't see, it's that they don't agree with the claim

"Illegal" is a grammatical shortcut, nothing more. On its own, use of the word isn't the slightest bit of evidence that the speaker is bigoted, racist, or views any group of people as nonhuman...

[LostInAnomie]

89. Is that what you think most of the people that think it's OK in this thread mean?

Who knew DU was full of that many racists?

[EndersDame]

107. no I mean in general that is why I don't like it

[Tangerine LaBamba]

23. I'm also weary of the use of the word "meme" -

it's become a kind of shorthand for lazy thinkers, along with "under the bus," "game-changer," other tiresome, worn-out phrases that need retirement right away.

Your reference to Washington Journal indicates what a tiny sliver of a sample you're using, and that's hardly authoritative.

If you think it's wrong, don't use it.

But, it gets the idea across, and that's all that matters to me....................................

[FLDCVADem]

26. Thank you for saying what I was thinking re: meme n/t

[petronius]

130. 100% agree - I've hated that word since the second time I heard it... (nt)

[Zomby Woof]

159. That pretentious bullshit started during the '04 primaries

Makes the user think they sound intellectual and deep, with none of the effort. It was ridiculously popular during the primaries back then, but like herpes, never fully went away.

If retirement doesn't work, may I suggest euthanizing?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

165. Only if I can do it with a shovel,

and my own strong arms, until there's nothing identifiable remaining.

I'm so sick of how fucking sloppy and repetitive and unimaginative our language has become in the media. If I hear "under the bus" one more time, that person is going under the nearest, fast-moving bus.

Parameters. As if they ever knew what the word meant.

Pushing the envelope. Pushing this until it explodes, please?

Thinking outside the box. Once you're outside the box, start running, and don't stop, don't look back.

It's tiresome and depressing. The word "meme" seems to be dying out as the Latest Favorite Of The Cliched Set, but I would give anything for a news writer to be articulate and creative with the language, to present the stories in the most inventive and seductive ways, to make it all palatable and enjoyable.

And intelligent............................................

[Kali]

195. wrong

It is Undocumented Alien (or worker). I completely agree with you: "Playing dumb is a big waste of time, don't you think?"

I also agree context is important, as I have used "illegal" myself. I prefer "migrant" because in the CONTEXT of what is going on, that is what these HUMAN BEINGS are actually doing and it is less judgmental. (for now, until that word is appropriated by bigots like the word "illegal" has been)

[treestar]

246. Illegally present alien

would be purely descriptive and nothing wrong with it.

[Confusious]

136. Should I not use

The, this, that, them, because the RW uses those words?

Illegals have been illegals since the 1970's before the wacky right.

[Moochy]

209. And if you don't see any stigmatization with the term

Maybe trying to explain it to you is a lost cause?

[Name removed]

214. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. This is not the first time this issue was surfaced.

I agree with you that, on the face of it, the term seems racially (actually, more technically correct might be ethnically) charged. But examine the words a little closer. They are, indeed, aliens. It is an inartful term, but nonetheless accurate. Next is the word illegal. Again, inartful, but they are, indeed, here illegally.

The alternate terms are equally inartful.

But as I said, this has been discussed before and the conclusion then was that thre are no better terms.

I'd love to see that shown to be wrong.

[bunkerbuster1]

49. I don't even mind the combination term "illegal aliens"

At least that's descriptive.

But simply referring to these people as "illegals" is just plain wrong.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. "Illegal" should not be used as a noun, but as a modifier of the word "alien"

Hence "illegal" would not describe the person, but their alien status.

[bunkerbuster1]

53. Yep. Still...

It may seem anally PC for me to say so, but why even go there?

Why is it so hard to say "undocumented?" It's more accurate. I mean, I'm an "illegal driver," technically, when I'm exceeding the speed limit, but how accurate is that?

[Quasimodem]

11. People may be illegitimate, but never illegal. n/t

[RagAss]

14. "You Lie"

[Matariki]

16. The action of living or working in the country without a visa is illegal in most countries.

While you are correct that people aren't illegal, their actions are. 'Undocumented' sounds like someone simply lost some paperwork. There's a reason for immigration & work permit laws.

[dflprincess]

33. The action of hiring someone who does not have the documentation to work here is illegal

the problem is with the American companies who willfully break immigration laws and are rarely punished for it.

I can't really fault someone who comes here looking for a job and hoping for a better life. They wouldn't be doing that if there weren't employers willing to hire them.

[Matariki]

51. Absolutely. I agree with you.

[KamaAina]

17. Has been for some time now, I'm afraid.

:eyes:

[tritsofme]

21. Illegal alien is a legal term.

Nothing more or less as far as I'm concerned.

[FreakinDJ]

24. What part of Illegal Alien do the PC Cops not understand

if you don't like it - don't use the term

My wife is a Naturalized Citizen who jumped through all the hoops to LEGALLY immigrate here and gain LAWFUL Naturalized Citizenship. Together ran to 12 different agencies/offices in 2 seperate countries divided by 7000 miles of ocean to gather all the nesessary documentation, pay $1000s in fee to several governments, met 1000s of reguirements/regulations, and appointments to do the process 100% LEGALALLY

So when some one tells me they crossed the boarder ILLEGALLY and they are upset because they don't have the RIGHT to be here - I have No Pity for them

[frylock]

43. well hey good on your wife and congrats to her for it doing it properly..

but if my family were living in poverty and i had an opportunity to make some money to help feed and clothe them, i probably wouldn't really have the patience to go through the formalty, thx.

[EndersDame]

79. I would cross borders if it meant medicine and food for my family

[Duke Newcombe]

166. Understood. Just know that you'd be doing it "illegal(ly)"

Making you an illegal immigrant. Just saying. Don't be surprised when then immigration organs of Crotobaltoslabovia come for you.

[treestar]

249. Exactly, they are doing nothing you or I would not do in the same situation

Scapegoating them just sucks.

[Cleita]

25. Pew Hispanic Center, not exactly a bastion of liberalism, says they should

be called undocumented not illegal. So it seems to be the proper term and the other one not a term that accurately describes them.

[FLDCVADem]

29. With all due respect to the Pew Hispanic Center

I agree with the earlier comment that "undocumented" makes it sound as though they misplaced their SS card or their driver's license. They are here illegally, and I see nothing wrong with being clear about that.

[Cleita]

99. They are working here without documentation. Many are here legally

on visitor's visas.

[JVS]

219. Working on a visitor's visa is a violation of the terms of the visa

[FLDCVADem]

228. Well if they're here legally, then they aren't illegal immigrants

And this conversation doesn't apply to them.

[Kali]

198. because that is just about all that the big crime they have committed is.

Not having papers is a minor CIVIL offense. It is not a get-your-picture-up-at-the-post office, most-wanted crime!

Jesus fucking christ, people sure do suck up the propaganda.

[Statistical]

35. Undocumented implies it isn't a crime to enter this country unlawfully.

I liken it to the difference between driving but I left my license at home accidentally so I have no documentation to show my legal status to drive and not having obtained a license and driving.

In one instance I simply am undocumented in the other I have no documents because I intentionally drove without obtaining them in the first place.

Using undocumented is a PC ploy to hide the fact that they entered the country illegally.

[tammywammy]

42. Agreed n/t

[Cleita]

95. They crossed the border illegally but people are not illegal, a subtle but

important distinction. Also, you are making a mistaken assumption that they aren't in the country legally. Many are, having come in on visitor's visas. If their visa doesn't have a work permit then they are undocumented.

[jberryhill]

137. Your definition is underinclusive

So, then do you use yet another term for a person who entered legally on a visa which then expired? Their continued presence on the country is unlawful, and it has nothing to do with whether he or she is working.

Interestingly, your assumption seems to be that all unlawful residents entered illegally, which is incorrect by far.

This is, by the way, another inequity of Doma. A hetero spouse can lawfully immigrate, a gay spouse cannot.

[Cleita]

151. Huh?

"Interestingly, your assumption seems to be that all unlawful residents entered illegally, which is incorrect by far."

I hardly assume that at all. If anything my assumption is that most of them entered legally via visitors' visas and worked with out the proper documentation of work permits. Don't put words in my posts that aren't there.

[Confusious]

139. Symantics

Sophistry. Twisting words and ideas to suit your ends.

Illegals.

[Cleita]

152. Don't you mean semantics?

These aren't my ideas but those of institutes that actually study the issue. Try a little Googling and you will find all kinds of information and maybe even a little spelling help. Don't ask me for links. I got tired of giving them out years ago to people who wouldn't read them because their minds were already too narrow to comprehend.

[Confusious]

156. So there are actually scientific institutes that study the issue of a word?

Or is it some think-tank that I have to listen to?

"Don't ask me for links. I got tired of giving them out years ago to people who wouldn't read them because their minds were already too narrow to comprehend"

So now you believe everyone else has minds to narrow to comprehend? Lets talk about that statement and narrow minds.

Spelling, the last gasp of a dying argument. Changing the topic, the pre-last gasp of a dying argument.

[Cleita]

158. They study the issue of immigration.

But you knew that, I hope. Sorry if you wanted a pissing contest. I got better things to do.

[Confusious]

160. Hey, you started the snarky pissing

I was just giving it back, 'cause I didn't want it.

[Moochy]

223. Racists being Racist

Your ends? Let's hope there's granite involved.

[Confusious]

162. And people who commit crimes

Are not criminals, they are just "feeling under the law"

your little word games are that stupid.

[johnaries]

129. Oh, does it? Really?

Yes, please remind us how "leaving my DL at home" is so much like trying to keep my family from starving. Please, do continue your story.

So much for "give us your poor, your hungry, your...."

It's also Politically Incorrect to say "fuck you, asshole", so I won't say it.

[Confusious]

How about I break into your houe and steal all your stuff

Hows that for illegal. I see no difference from what they do coming here and taking jobs illegally.

The rules should be changed to allow more poor, but how many countries have let so many in? You need a bachelors and enough money for 4 years to get into Australia. I'm my brother's keeper, not and entire different countries keeper!

[johnaries]

147. Really? You don't see any difference between

risking your life to get a low-paying job to work your ass off so you can send your family some money and breaking into somebody's home?

You REALLY cannot see the difference?

That's really, really sad.

[Confusious]

150. No, what's really sad is that you see a difference

Every time you stand up for someone coming from a different country ILLEGALLY, that's a job that could have gone to some American who needs it.

Unless your going to tell me we have no poor and hungry in this country?

[JeanGrey]

186. What was that absurd statement McCain made?

"you can't get an American to pick lettuce for fifty dollars an hour?" Yeah, right, right.

[treestar]

247. It's not a crime

It is a civil violation, along the lines of breaching a contract.

Though I agree they are not merely undocumented. That implies they could become documented, ignoring the fact that our laws are so restrictive that they could never qualify. If they did, they'd get the documents.

[FreakinDJ]

27. What part of Illegal Alien do the PC Cops not understand

if you don't like it - don't use the term

My wife is a Naturalized Citizen who jumped through all the hoops to LEGALLY immigrate here and gain LAWFUL Naturalized Citizenship. Together ran to 12 different agencies/offices in 2 seperate countries divided by 7000 miles of ocean to gather all the nesessary documentation, pay $1000s in fee to several governments, met 1000s of reguirements/regulations, medical appointments, immigration interviews to do the process 100% LEGALALLY

So when some one tells me they crossed the boarder ILLEGALLY and they are upset because they don't have the RIGHT to be here - I have No Pity for them - because their actions only made it togher for us

[Cleita]

100. Well, I don't see the same standards of illegality being applied to the

many Europeans who come here and work without documentation. This has always been an issue of which border they crossed north or south, and very unsubtle racism about the southern border. My mother too came here legally, just like your wife, however, I have known many who are now naturalized citizens, including our California Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, who entered here on a visitor's visa and worked without documents as well. As much as I would like to see him deported, I doubt if it will happen.

[FreakinDJ]

103. Interesting - No statute of limitations of Lying on immigration documents

Basically they can deport you 30 years after you have received naturalized citizenship

But I'm sure a lot of Dems poured over Arnold's immigration paperwork

[treestar]

244. She had a shot at being legal once she was the spouse of a citizen

Is your resentment due to the fact of having to deal with all those agencies? Because it has nothing to do with Mexicans who sneak over the border. they had no chance to be legal. The laws are restrictive and don't include them. They couldn't deal with those agencies because there was nothing to deal over.

[immoderate]

28. There are different levels of formality.

Can a place that won't tolerate the use of "illegal" as a noun euphemism for illegal alien, then go on to use the word "wannabe" as a noun? :shrug:

--imm

[Hello_Kitty]

31. I prefer to use undocumented, because it's more accurate. But Obama said "illegal immigrant"

In his speech last night. Was the President being bigoted? :shrug:

[FLDCVADem]

37. Why do you believe undocumented is more accurate?

They are here illegally - why is that so hard to admit? Why do we have to try to pretty that up?

[Uzybone]

41. because we are PC nuts

what exactly is the difference between undocumented immigrant and illegal immigrant

[Hello_Kitty]

62. Because it's actually not illegal just to be here as a non-citizen.

They don't have the appropriate documents to work or receive public benefits. So yeah, they are working illegally but it's not accurate to call them illegal immigrants.

[LostInAnomie]

94. If they enter the country through illegal means then it actually is illegal.

[asdjrocky]

39. I don't really have a problem with the term illegal immigrant

though I would like something else better, my complaint is when people shorten it to be, illegals. I find the term dehumanizing.

[Statistical]

52. Do you avoid shortening all other phrases on a message board.

Now if an newspaper article which is proofread multiple times and goes through an editor uses slang like "illegals" is like is intentional.

Hell most people on DU (myself included) use some subform of English in which abbreviations, partial sentences, lingo, slang, made up words, acronyms, and truncated words/sayings/expression are hashed together in a quasi language meets IM meets texting meets scored 190 on English SAT hybrid.

And don't even get me started on the gratuitous use of smileys by some posters.

illegal is simply a symptom of that rather than any racist or classist intent. IMHO.

[asdjrocky]

68. I hear what you're saying, and I disagree.

I think a lot of people use the word as a blunt tool. Be we can certainly agree to disagree.

[frylock]

32. i hate that fucking word..

and i really dislike seeing it here.

[sam sarrha]

36. if they were legal would you be talking about them at all..??

[curt_b]

38. I prefer people.

I prefer people.

[marmar]

44. It's dehumanizing.....

When I hear that term used, the connotation is "this person who is less of a person than I am." I won't use it.
Undocumented immigrant works fine for me.

[Posteritatis]

70. And that is, of course, the intent of using "illegal" as a noun. (nt)

[Confusious]

143. Maybe if you used it

It just describes a person who is here illegally to me.

[Odin2005]

84. You are over-thinking things.

[redqueen]

221. Yes, it is. But so many people do it all the time.

I've done it too, usually about wingers and conservatives.

We do it often here and think nothing of it. I suppose many consider that it lessens the power that that kind of thinking has in our subconscious. I'm not so sure...

[bunkerbuster1]

48. It shouldn't be. I've complained loudly about it in here.

There are always some hard-core DUers who think I'm anally PC for feeling that way, but fuck 'em.

Dehumanizing someone by calling that person an "illegal" is inexcusable.

[L. Coyote]

50. Undocumented immigrants is the factual term.

[FLDCVADem]

54. As is illegal immigrant or illegal alien n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. What makes you assume they wish to immigrate?

There here on a work visa sans visa.

[yodoobo]

56. undocumented worker is a piss poor term

Its supposed to be a kinder gentler term.

Except it isn't

it reduces them down to only the value of the work they produce.

I certainly don't call myself a "documented worker". Im far more than that.

And what about those here illegally who don't work?

Shall we call them "undocumented non-workers"?

[saltpoint]

58. It's a buzzword, handy for those who wish to racially broadbrush

a population without comparable political clout.

In the context of health care, for example, it seems to me incumbent upon a compassionate society to treat an old person or a young person or another other person who is sick because they are sick and need help, and without running a demographic stat check to see if they are insured, or where they were born, or how much money their parents might make.

In the context of education, the process ought to honor the instinctual curiosit and promise of the student and not his or her parents' zip code.

I like this post. Recommended.

"And there are lives in the balance..." (J. Browne)

[asdjrocky]

63. Thanks saltpoint.

I really didn't think this would become such a controversial issue. I mean, I thought everyone knew it was wrong.

[saltpoint]

72. It seems like a walkaway to me, too, but then again, I have trouble

finding the damn car keys some days.

It's a good post and a strong point and I hope more people on this site will drop by and join the circle.

[Hugabear]

60. It is inherently racist and wrong.

The term "illegal" is almost exclusively used to refer to undocumented persons from south of the border, those of Hispanic origin. It's a dehumanizing term, used to demonize and castigate an entire group of people.

[FLDCVADem]

61. Inherently racist? Bullshit n/t

[Hugabear]

66. Yes it is. It's used almost exclusively to refer to a particular group of people

I've never heard anyone use the term "illegal" to refer to someone from Canada, Britain, France, China, Russia, or any other country who is here illegally. It's almost ALWAYS used to refer to a Hispanic person who is here illegally.

[LostInAnomie]

71. I've never heard the term "undocumented immigrant" used to describe anyone but Hispanics either...

... does that mean it's inherently racist also?

[FLDCVADem]

73. Then let me be the first

I don't care where they're from, what they look like or how they got here. If they didn't follow the proper procedures and enter the U.S. legally, then they're illegal aliens, and I'll shorten it to illegals.

[Obamanaut]

180. And that particular group is.......anyone here illegally. nt

[Kali]

202. most people have no clue there ARE white "illegals"

its all about the racism
damn dirty Mexicans taking OUR jobs

[Hello_Kitty]

65. I don't like it either. I also think "jobs that Americans won't do" is inherently racist.

Yet "pro-immigrant" progressives use it all the time. What does it say about the jobs? About the people who ARE doing them?

[Rincewind]

67. Yes, it's ok

It's short hand for " undocumented workers who are in this country illegally in violation of the laws of a sovereign nation".

[Generic Brad]

69. I've seen permanent residents referred to as "illegal" many times

Not by anyone at DU - only Republicans. It pisses off my permanent resident wife to no end when someone calls her an illegal.

[G_j]

81. it's mean-spirited

and dehumanizing, so why do it?

[asdjrocky]

83. Thanks.

I really thought this would be a no brainer, especially here.

[G_j]

96. I hate it when people insist on using terms that offend ppl in their community

we are highly intelligent beings, we can communicate while having awareness of the power of language.

[Odin2005]

82. I've never understood the ridiculous notion that "illegal immigrant" is calling them illegal people.

The term means they are not in this country legally, they have not gone through the legal immigration procedures. The term "undocumented workers" is a BS euphemism designed to hide the fact that such people are NOT HERE LEGALLY.

Probably the same PC nuts that insist on me calling myself a "person with autism" instead of "an autistic person" :eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. "immigrant" implies they intend to stay here. That is not necessarily, or even usually, true. n/t

[UTUSN]

85. K&R to undo the UnReKKK!1 n/t

[saltpoint]

87. rocky, I just got around to clicking the 'Rec' on this. I'd habitually

tardy.

But in reading through the thread it looks as if this is a conversation we still need to have as a society, so let this post be a kick to hopefully draw more participants to a good subject.

[Canuckistanian]

88. I noticed that myself earlier

The phrase "undocumented aliens" is a bit clumsy, but calling entire groups of people "illegal" is wrong.

Especially considering that many are welcomed in the "business community" to do work for outrageously low salaries and ZERO protection under law.

It's time to either recognize these people as a vital part of society OR prosecute those who lure them into the country with false promises.

[asdjrocky]

97. Thank you for being that voice of reason.

I really don't understand the anger here. I wasn't trying to be angry in the op.

[Canuckistanian]

110. I just don't understand Americans' attitutdes to immigrants

FIRST, you set the bar too high to being a citizen. I've heard the stories about people trying to go legit and most give up because of the cost or bother.

SECOND, the way the system turns a blind eye to those who employ "illegals" is outrageous. Here in Canada, if a business made $3 million a year with only 5 legal employees, some questions would be asked of that employer. Here, EVERYONE needs a Social Insurance Number (S.I.N) to get employed. No SIN, no work.

THIRD, we don't punish people for trying to get in, unless they're violent or have fraudulent purposes. We have no prisons for "illegals", nor do we lock up children for their "sins" of being captured with their parents.

I've heard that several cities in border towns in TX or CA could go broke without immigrants' contributions to the working world.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe a special status, maybe massive enforcement of laws regarding employers.

One thing's for sure - a major attitude adjustment.

[FLDCVADem]

111. What I would do to employers

1. For every illegal immigrant that is found to be working for an employer, said employer would be fined the equivalent of one year's wages, including all applicable state, federal and FICA taxes as well as workman's comp and unemployement insurance premiums. Wages would be determined to be the controlling minimum wage (state or federal) plus $2/hour.

2. Employer fine would go into a fund for detection and enforcement purposes.

3. Illegal immigrant would be paid one years wages (please see above for wage calculation) minus applicable state and federal income taxes.

4. Illegal immigrant, with wages, would be sent home, with family.

Right now, fines, when applied are so small that they are seen as a cost of doing business. Employers need to know that we can put them OUT of business if they are caught. And with the fine structure outlined above, we'll have the money to truly enforce the law.

[Canuckistanian]

116. Now why doesn't anyone else think like you?

That's brilliant.

[FLDCVADem]

118. Thanks! n/t

[Confusious]

148. I think the employer should be fined

all profits from participating in an illegal act.

I'm just tired of corporate bullshit. No profits, no acts. We get the same as citizens, don't we?

[treestar]

248. There seems to be no enforcement whatsoever

I've seen estimates of 12 to 13 million people in the U.S. illegally. How that number can build up without a blind eye to enforcement I can't imagine. Then the employer sanction laws of the 80s have clearly not worked. Either they never sanction the employers, and just don't enforce it, or the fines are part of the cost of doing business.

Have a law, don't enforce it, and then blame the people who are doing low paying jobs with no protections. It's a crappy attitude.

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. wtf is "undocumented"? They're illegal aliens.

Yes, "illegals" is a suitable shorthand as far as I'm concerned.

[johnaries]

131. They are fucking PEOPLE. And no different from you but for the

"Grace of God".

[lumberjack_jeff]

193. No, In this country I'm different.

I'm a citizen.

If I'm in Mexico, I'm the alien. If I sneak in, I'm illegal.

[pampango]

217. The "birthplace lottery" is viewed very differently by some progressives than

the "lotteries" of race, gender, and sexual orientation which you happen to be born with. Most of us will do all we can to equalize opportunities for all people regardless of race, gender and sexual orientation, but when you get to birthplace (nationality) all bets are off.

Liberal straight, white males universally (if they are liberal) believe in equal opportunity regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, because it is the moral thing to do and produces a better society for all, even if it costs some of those SWM's some of the power, prestige and money that went with their almost monopolistic hold on the good jobs and political offices in the 1950's.

But some of those same liberal SWM's, when faced with the prospect that other nationalities (birthplace lottery) might benefit at their expense get much more "I've got mine and you're not getting it" than they do with women, racial minorities and gays.

The "we're all just people, not different from one another except that we live on different sides of a line drawn on a map" doesn't get you very far with some folks. Many will point out in response to your post, "They're not Black, not women, and not gay. They're Mexicans!" Thanks for your post.

:)

[Kali]

225. well put

:thumbsup:

[lumberjack_jeff]

260. Did Carlos Slim, the richest man in the world, lose the birthplace lottery?

I think that the whole "they're just looking for a better life" frame is complete bullshit, if for no other reason than it reeks of american exceptionalism. Mexico likes sending their disposable people here because they would rather not educate, feed and give them health care. They also count on the $18 billion income stream coming from their surreptitious workers.

The only losers are american workers.

Far too many conflate the issues of nationalism and race. As a citizen, I belong to a society which I am obliged to try to improve. Allowing an unrestricted flow of labor across the border does it no good.

[robinlynne]

92. "illegal' doesn't bother me at all. I don't think it is racist. if I enter another country illegaly

I will be considered an illegal, jsut as if someone enters this country ilegally. geesh.

[DRoseDARs]

98. I am so sick of the semantic games people play on this issue.

"Illegal immigrant" is a proper English term, not a racial slur (though I'll grant that using just the word "illegals" is sloppy English and somewhat offensive). They are immigrants who came to this country (or others) under conditions that violate immigration laws, hence they are "illegal immigrants." And that's it, that's the whole hog. It never ceases to amaze me how people can get so bent out of shape over what is a very bland pairing of words. It's nothing more than a legalistic term, one that has fallen victim to the ebb and flow of political discourse. On the other hand, while "illegal alien" is proper English too, I think it is fair to view it as offensive because the immigrant is being reduced in his or her Humanity. "Alien" has a very different connotation from "immigrant" and that difference comes across as excessively negative, whereas simply referring to the immigrant who has entered this (or any) country in violation of immigration laws as an "illegal immigrant" is simply stating a dry fact.

I've worked alongside illegal immigrants before (no, I didn't report them nor had any desire to, so anyone wanting to rip into me can fuck right the hell off) and I haven't lost any sleep over it, nor have I shit my pants in fear/anger/sexual arousal (because you KNOW some right-wingers get off on hating them some brown people. I'm looking at you Lou Dobbs ... and I'm reaching for the mental bleach to scrub the image from my brain.) or contracted some horrible disease from them either. I once worked for a LEGAL immigrant from Mexico (he moved from Cancun in the 70's) whose wife was an illegal immigrant. She got scooped up in an ICE raid in Reno a few years back and in all the brilliance that ICE puts into planning such raids, their 6-year-old daughter (born in the US) was left without supervision for a short while until another relative realized what had happened to the mother and that the first-grader was left behind. I've long since lost touch with their family, but I suspect the mother will suffer in her efforts to reenter the country to be with her husband and daughter. That is barbaric and insane.

I wish illegal immigrants had gone through proper immigration procedures, thus avoiding all this nonsense, but whatever. They're here and will continue coming here, they work shitty jobs, they try to stay out of trouble to avoid drawing attention to themselves and their illegal immigration status, and they're just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Ooo, scary. :scared:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

109. Recommend, even though I can't recommend -

thank you for a cogent, coherent, and quite informed and sympathetic post.

Words. Some people need to demonize words so that they can somehow feel morally superior. I don't get it, but if I did, I fear I'd be one of them, so I'll pass on that bit of edification.

You got me with your foreclosure of the people who might scold you for not reporting the illegals with whom you worked. That was a perfect use of all the clearest words, and you got your idea across very nicely. That's the point of language, as I understand it.

Kudos...............

:toast:

[DRoseDARs]

112. I'm glad I didn't hit "Post message" on the first rough draft...

;)

That post right there was 2 hours in the making. I really wanted to be clear and fair, while still standing firm on my own opinion. Of course, can a fact even BE an opinion? I mean, hating lawyers is one thing, hating lawyer-y words? Seriously? :P

[Tangerine LaBamba]

122. It was time well spent,

and you write really well.

Sometimes stating the obvious can be a tortuous process, since it's so simple for you to see what you see, but translating it into words so that others can see what you see is bloody difficult. It's like slowing down on a bicycle - you want to stay upright on the bike, but you have to keep moving forward just a bit, or else you fall over.

You did a great job. That was the best post I've ever seen on this tired old subject - it seems to get whipped out at regular intervals - and now that I've read your post, I don't ever have to click on any of those OPs again.

Thanks again............................

[DRoseDARs]

125. *blushes* Well, don't stop participating in these discussions/pissing contests on MY account.

I'm not THAT good. Who do you think I am? Obama? ;)

[Kali]

226. aren't you a writer?

words and how they are used matter, it is dishonest to say otherwise
language evolves and the term "illegals" has become a hammer that racist wing nuts use to dehumanize poor brown people

[DRoseDARs]

230. RW'ers use "liberal" to denigrate, er, liberals. Clearly, we should stop using the term "liberals"

because it is a hammer. It is dishonest to say otherwise. I feel dehumanized.

[Kali]

232. yeah I guess those Negros and HomuhSEXuals should stop being offended

just using the language.


I like "progressive" better than "librul", anyway:P

[DRoseDARs]

234. You made the point about words having power. Isn't your effort to get people to stop using...

...words like "illegals" (which as I posted earlier is sloppy and a tad offensive, though more so for its sloppiness) and "illegal immigrants" giving power to those using them as offensive terms? Words DO have meaning and how they are used DOES matter, as you said. "Illegal immigrant" is an innocuous legal term and as such should be the term that is used. It is concise and accurate. Using anything else is being evasive and dishonest. "Undocumented worker" implies every illegal immigrant works when that is patently false. Do all the children who cross the border illegally with their parents work, even if they are old enough to do so? And what about the adults who have to stay and watch the youngest children? You could make the argument that watching young children IS (unpaid) work, but again, that's just being evasive. Hell, I have worked as an "undocumented worker" for two separate jobs over the past 5 years, and I'm a US citizen by birth (Chicago). I didn't fill out a W-2 or W-4 for either job; my pay was entirely under-the-table. Using the term "undocumented worker" on all illegal immigrants is asinine.



And I prefer the term "pinko commie-fascist" over "progressive" myself. ;)

[Kali]

236. the current accepted terminology is Undocumented Alien (or Worker)

Now, personally I don't like the word "alien" but that is mostly for unrelated reasons having to do with ecology, BUT I have no problem using acceptable terms as they come into general use and dropping terms that become offensive. It's part of the way our language and society works. I am not going to be the first to use the brand new "PC" term as it comes out, but I am also not going to stubbornly insist something is not offensive when it clearly IS. I actually just use the term "migrant" most of the time when I need to talk about a thirsty visitor to my house, for example. That way I don't have to determine whether they have papers or not but can still convey the fact that they are passing through on the way to someplace else. From a geographical or anthropological perspective, you know?


Our little smiley sub-conversation demonstrates one of the defense mechanisms of the "oppressed" and that is to take ownership of derogatory labels.:hi:

[DRoseDARs]

257. Well, we'll just agree to disagree on the matter.

I don't agree that illegal immigrant "clearly is" an offensive term, though we both agree that using "alien" to refer to a person is offensive. "Migrant" seems a fair compromise, as many illegal immigrants do tend to migrate instead of settling in roots. But then again, many DO decide to stay so we still have the problem of a term belying a more concise, accurate reality. Ce la vie, speak as you wish. I won't get bent out of shape over it.



I don't know about it being a defense mechanism, but "Pinko Commie-Fascist" just looks better on a t-shirt. :) Also, as someone of the homo-persuasion, I know all about being oppressed and hearing derogatory labels bandied about. Generally, I'm good about ignoring all that, but I see "gay" being used as "lame" and admittedly it gets under my skin, but again I generally ignore it. Hell, I've caught myself using it that way. :hide: Meh, whatever.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

253. I am, indeed, a writer,

and I'm a lawyer, too.

And words are very important. They best serve us when they are used properly, and colloquial use is just as important as literal, so I find "illegal" quite proper and accurate.

If some find it demeaning or dehumanizing, I daresay they have an agenda quite different from mine, and that makes it their issue, not mine.

It does not in any way lessen the appropriateness of the word............................

[bkkyosemite]

101. Any person who steals our borders is here illegally. So therefore they are illegal in the eyes of

our laws. Both of my husbands are/were Mexican (American Citizens) and are firm believers that if you want to come here you have to abide by the laws. If we went to Mexico without correct documentation we would be put in jail or worse. They are illegally here and are illegal aliens.

[asdjrocky]

102. May I ask you-

if you became a citizen, how was the process? Was it expensive? Did you have to have legal representation? I would really love some details.

[bkkyosemite]

104. I was born in CA both my husbands were born in CA. I am Italian and Irish and my grandparents came

over through Ellis Island in the 1800's. I wish I could help you but I do not know exactly what the procedure is, sorry.

[asdjrocky]

105. I misunderstood your post then I'm sorry.

[bkkyosemite]

106. Don't be silly maybe I didn't word it very well

:hi:

[DRoseDARs]

108. Yeah, your wording implied they were born in Mexico but legally immigrated to the US at some point.

If we understand your responses correctly now, they are of Mexican ancestry, but are US citizens by birth.

[bkkyosemite]

113. Correct! I guess I did not word it correctly. I did put American Citizens in (*).

[DRoseDARs]

119. No worries. English is a difficult language for everyone, INCLUDING native speakers.

President George W. Bush, for instance... ;)

[bkkyosemite]

115. Their parents immigrated here in the correct manner.

[TreasonousBastard]

114. As far as I'm concerned-- YES! Now stop with this bullshit...

allowing PC semantics to fog every damn issue out there. And just because some assholes out there use the term as an insult doesn't mean the term itself is an insult.

I help out with food and shelter programs for homeless illegals. I used to help with medical and legal problems, and I still support organizations that do this work.

I have known illegals from China, Ireland, Italy, India, Poland, Pakistan, and Egypt and worked with them and befriended them. Latin America? Oh yeah. Lots of them.

But they are all still illegal-- an unfortunate fact due largely to our insane immigration policies and many could be legal simply with the stroke of a pen, if anyone had the stones to use that pen.

So, I still call them illegals because that is what they are. It is not perjorative, it is descriptive.

[bkkyosemite]

117. Exactly.

[G_j]

121. well, I think using language popular with the RW

is stoopid...!!

[Confusious]

145. Then I think you should have taken every word out of that post

Because the RW uses the same words.

[asdjrocky]

123. I think it's a pejorative. A lot of people think it's a pejorative.

Why all the anger? Do you call the people illegal to their face. Or, for example, if you need one of them to come over to you do you yell, "Hey illegal!"

Sorry, I can't imagine calling a friend, or a coworker, or a stranger an illegal, or a group of people illegals.

For me, it's wrong. I've just known to many people in this situation to label in a way that even they find offensive.

Oh yeah, speel chek is your friend.

[EndersDame]

144. You also have to admit alot of Rednecks use it as a euphamism for Wet Back

[emilyg]

120. Their actions are illegal. I have

no problem caling them illegals.

[proteus_lives]

124. I use it.

If they enter the country illegally, they are illegal immigrants. I don't think it's racist or bigoted.

[johnaries]

126. Is it ok to call innocent offspring "illegitimate"?

I agree with you. It is still racist and bigoted to refer to human beings as "illegals". Thanks you for pointing this out.

[asdjrocky]

127. Thanks.

I had a daughter with a woman and we're not married. Trust me, you don't want to call my daughter a bastard.

I honestly can't believe some of these people.

[johnaries]

.

:hug:

[DeadEyeDyck]

128. Don't know about DU but I know I heard Obama

use the illegal alien thing last week. Guess he is trying to appease the RW

[asdjrocky]

132. That's not what I'm saying.

I have a problem with using the term "illegals". If you want to call someone illegal, go ahead if it makes you feel better.

[DeadEyeDyck]

142. lighten up. It ain't me. Just saying what I heard

to me people are people.

I was an Army brat born in Germany with a black dad and a german(white) mom. I move to Florida when I was 9 years old and was in a "bubba" school as a nappy-haired blonde black kid with a german accent. On top of that, I lost an eye when I was five when my brother pushed me into a tree (dead-eye named Richard)

IOW's - I put up with shit you cannot comprehend. But life is good and I am doing well.

[asdjrocky]

179. Sorry, didn't mean to jump on you there.

I've just been really surprised by the reaction here.

[Kaleva]

133. I don't have a problem with the term

I don't think I've ever used it here at DU myself but it doesn't bother me if and when others do use the term.

[saltpoint]

135. I've heard tell of a town...

- - -

"I've heard tell of a town to where I might as well be bound
Down around the Mexican plain
They say that the people all are friendly there
All they ask of you is your name..."

Mr. Bob Dylan, "Farewell"

- - -

[roody]

140. Illegal is a adjective. Some poor users of the English

language think that it is a noun.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

141. Ever hear of "colloquial"?

It's a noun in that country.

Great word - lots of uses....................

[Confusious]

146. English is one of those great languages, if you didn't know

That you can use adjectives as nouns and nouns as adjectives. F**k for example.

English was a peasant language. Made for/by the peasants.

[Obamanaut]

182. What do the wealthy users think? nt.

[newtothegame]

149. I say we argue over the semantics of words.

F the issues, let's just not hurt any feelings.

[astral]

153. yes.

[TransitJohn]

154. Hasn't it always been?

I must not have gotten the memo.

[K8-EEE]

157. If I'm pulled over without a valid driver's license am I an "undocumented driver"

"But officer, I'm only undocumented, it sounds so much nicer!"

If you're using fake docs, SS# or whatever in this country or any other country, that's illegal, call it what it is.

I have a lot of sympathy for people in that situation and if I was born in their circumstances I would probably make the same trip and be illegal as well. Most of them do it just as survival. Really all the people I've known on expired or illegal visas would rather be at home if the situation wasn't impossible. You do what you have to do.

The only thing that really bothers me about the terminology is that they don't apply to the EMPLOYERS of illegal/undoc'd or whatever workers....you never hear Swift meatpacking company or whatever called "an illegal company" even though they knowingly hire people under false pretenses in order to exploit them.

To parse words like this seems overly politically correct though.

[Jacobair]

161. "Illegals" sounds too right wing for me. It's one of their

little catch phrases.
I don't have a problem with illegal immigrants.
I don't like "illegal aliens" .. that idiot Lou Dobbs' favorite word.

[Bolo Boffin]

164. I only use the term when sarcastically referring to someone else's argument.

I stick to "illegal immigrants" otherwise.

Calling someone an "illegal" is dehumanizing.

[Zookeeper]

167. To be accurate: Citizens of another country working here...

illegally or "Illegal Workers" for short.

"Undocumented Workers" is inaccurate and pretty silly.

[daedalus_dude]

168. Some DUers think it is their birthright to be treated as "chosen among the races".

No American has "the right to be here" more than any other person, by any standards of absolute relevance. "illegal aliens" is a knee jerk reaction by people who are afraid that their ecological niche might be challenged. We wrap it in regulations and abstract phrases and decorate it with pretty flags, but at the end of the day it is the same thing that chimpanzees do.

[Dorian Gray]

170. Illegal Alien

is not improper. They are Alien to our nation, and here illegally. (It's an adjective to describe their status.) However, referring to them solely as Illegals is sort of a weird shorthand. It would be like calling them the Undocumenteds.

[Skidmore]

171. Oh, puhleeze.

[pampango]

172. Any connection between use of "illegal" and support for or opposition to immigration reform

I'm perfectly willing to accept that many DU'ers who use "illegals" are not racist or bigots.

It would be interesting to see if there was a pattern with respect to immigration reform. Do DU'ers who find the term "illegals" offensive tend to support reform and those who find the term to be nonjudgmental tend to oppose reform? I could see some logic in the hypothesis that those who support reform are more sensitive to any perceived slighting of this class of people, while those who oppose reforms that would benefit this class would be less interested not offending them or their supporters.

[1]

173. is this what we are reduced to? no. i don't buy into your attempt to subjugate our language...

illegal is illegal, no matter how much it offends your sensibilities...

[noamnety]

174. Thank you - I consider the term racist

one of those terms used by the right to dehumanize a person (who always happens to not-be-white).

Being homeless is some areas is illegal. Feeding the hungry is illegal. Marrying the person you love is illegal in some areas.

People are not illegal; laws declare certain actions to be illegal.

[FlaGranny]

176. What do you mean by

"entire group of people?" I personally knew of an "illegal" alien who was an Israeli. Illegal aliens come from just about every country on earth. They are all here illegaly or outside the law. If you use the word "illegal" to describe only those of a certain race or nationality then I would agree it is bigoted. Undocumented workers are here illegally, but there are many here illegally who are not "workers," so "undocumented worker" is not a very good descriptive term. What would be a good, shortened descriptive term for people from foreign countries who are in the United States without documentation, i.e., illegally?

[Le Taz Hot]

177. It's a vernacular usage and currently

in circulation. Personally, I refuse to let the PC police tell me what words I will and will not use.

[cbdo2007]

181. Two kinds of immigrants - legal and illegal

It's just funny here how the "illegal" part of it doesn't seem to mean anything.

Show some respect to the people who come to America and follow the laws and do things correctly.

Either way, "Illegal Aliens" or "Illegal Immigrants" or "Undocumented workers" (aren't they "undocumented livers" as well?) - bottom line people - go get documented and become legal.

[pampango]

183. FYI, I created a poll in GD related to this discussion. n/t

[asdjrocky]

I'd love a link to that.

Just to see where we fall.

[pampango]

187. You probably already have the link but here it is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6521076

[customerserviceguy]

184. It's the word "undocumented" that is the fraud here

Is the drug dealer down on the corner an "undocumented" pharmacist?

Is a same-sex commitment ceremony an "undocumented" wedding?

It's just a euphemism to get around telling the truth.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

185. I would say "Illegal immigrant" yes but "illegal" no.

I think that referring to illegal immigrants as "undocumented" is *not* OK; it's a deliberate attempt to obfuscate - the issue is not that they are in a country without documents but that they are in a country in defiance of its laws.

On the other hand, calling people "illegals" implies that it's their very existance that is illegal, rather than the specific act of their immigration, not to mention being poor English.

[cbdo2007]

207. I agree with you here. The term "illegals" by itself is rude but not when used in the full context

of "illegal immigrant". Thank you for explaining it in your post better than I could.

[saltpoint]

188. We have to be vigilant in speaking of others so that true respect is

shown.

There is danger in allowing a word like 'illegal' to become a perjorative reference in the way the Bush administration, to take one example, allowed 'French' to become perjorative.

A truthful assessment of 'French' does not sanction the bile Bush added to it, did not sanction the reflexive dismissal he intended.

Not all citizens of a city or state or nation are law-abiders. Most are, but not all, and the laws which are bent or ignored are varied and multiple. If we allow a proper immigration procedure to be the law of the land it would be more convincing if we adhered to all our other laws ourselves.

Commonly, U.S. Americans violate automobile speed limits. Speeders' violation of those laws is an assertion that their selfishness is more important than others' safety. Lives are on the line.

There are economic strains on most cultures. Certainly in ours, and certainly lately. Which manufacturing entities shipped U.S. jobs to India, for example, and why are those companies not held responsible for gutting the economy and instead the Right focuses on men and women from south of our southern border and demonizes them because they want a higher standard of living for their families?

[lukasahero]

189. Since when do we on the left refer to human beings as things?

I haven't read all of this thread but I'm very surprised to see people here defending the use of the term.

There are individual human beings here in this country illegally. They have their reasons for being here. Perhaps if we gave a moment's consideration to their life story that made them willing to take such a risk and see them as a whole and valuable individual human being, we would stop referring to them as things and start making an effort to help change their lives for the better - both here and in their home countries.

God there is a disgusting lack of empathy in the world these days.

[truebrit71]

191. If you are in the country without proper paperwork you are "illegal"...

...and I say that as a "legal" alien..

Not sure where the problem is :shrug:

[lukasahero]

194. No, you are here illegally

Illegal is not a noun except in informal use explicitly in "illegal alien" (in which case alien is the noun and illegal is still an adjective).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/illegal

[truebrit71]

204. Nope. I am a legal alien, they are illegal aliens..

Therefore I am legal, they are illegal.

[lukasahero]

205. No, you're being deliberately obtuse

There are accepted rules for the use of language. You can use an adjective as a noun if you wish however don't expect to be taken seriously in doing so.

Thanks for playing. Bored now.

[truebrit71]

208. I personally don't give a shit one way or the other Mr. Pedantic...

...and I am completely and utterly crushed that you won't take me seriously...:eyes:

[lukasahero]

237. That's "Ms. Pedantic" to you.

Thanks.

[truebrit71]

241. My deepest apologies, Ms. Pedantic.

:-D

[lukasahero]

242. .

:evilgrin:

[Kali]

192. "allowed"?

I don't like censorship and besides it gives one the opportunity to either educate the ignorant or call out the bigots.

[asdjrocky]

199. Who said "allowed"?

And if you think DU, or any website that you don't own, is censorship free for you, then you're dreaming.

I can think of a dozen things, just off the top of my head, that would get locked or get me banned within minutes of posting it.

Call people what you like, I'm only asking questions. Are you saying I shouldn't ask the questions?

[Kali]

203. sorry, you are right I transposed OK to allowed in my brain

this subject gets me really worked up - I totally agree with you about the usage of the term, my point in the reply was that for me, in a sick way it is OK if people use it here, as that gives those of us who know that it is wrong the chance to gently educate the ignorant and slam the bigoted. Hopefully your thread is changing a few minds or at least awakening the possibility in some.

[asdjrocky]

206. I'm so sorry.

I think you're like the second or third person I've jumped on in this thread. Lol, just look at how many time's I've said I'm sorry.

It's weird Kali, I don't think I've ever been so frustrated by something at DU as this. All along I thought I was in tune with most of the thinking here, and I find I'm way off base.

Surprising.

[adamuu]

196. It's not okay. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

197. That's been 'OK' here for quite some time

Sadly.

[datasuspect]

200. DU is not a hotbed of liberalism or progressivism

where the hell have you been?

[asdjrocky]

201. Lol, I'm learning.

Guess I'm a little slow.

[Moochy]

210. It was determined

that those types have been far too disruptive and not conducive to cheering, and their discussion detracts from the shilling.

[slackmaster]

211. I use "illegal aliens" because it's well understood and accurate

I've always felt that "undocumented workers" is a PC attempt to sugar-coat the reality that we are talking about people who are violating our country's immigration laws.

Besides that, not all of them work.

[Ferret Annica]

213. Unless you are of Native American heritage

you are an 'illegal.' Most of us are benefactors of genocide and theft. That's just how it is.

[Renew Deal]

215. It's always been OK to use that term on DU.

And I don't see why it shouldn't be OK to use on DU.

[redqueen]

220. I guess so.

[asdjrocky]

222. Kind of a tough crowd ain't it?

[Moochy]

224. ...

racist conservadem underground ?

[LanternWaste]

227. I refer to speeders and jaywalkers 'illegals'

I refer to speeders and jaywalkers 'illegals' to remind myself how absurd the sobriquet is.

[Ignis]

229. I suppose it's OK to use the adjective, but NOT the noun.

Every time I hear a Winger talking about "illegals," it's very easy to hear the code-shifting for "(insert racist term for Latinos here)."

[Becky72]

231. I don't have a problem with the term "illegal immigrant"

I don't consider it an insult as much as a fact.

"illegal" alone sound more like a criminal so I wouldn't use it.

[Kali]

233. SIN PAPELES!!!!

that is the big "crime" - no papers. Without papers. Undocumented. A rather minor civil offense.

Of course ILLEGAL sounds much more dangerous and gives the user a nice air of superiority because being LEGAL is better than merely having some papers. It allows the Legal to denigrate and not have to think about how difficult life can be for some people just because they don't have some fucking papers or were born on the wrong side of an imaginary line. Better if it sounds like what they have done is a crime. Bad people. Bad CRIMALS. ILLEGALS. Round 'em up and ship 'em out. They aren't LIKE US, they are ILLEGALS.

[pitohui]

239. it's OK not to use euphemisms and to speak plainly

you can be a liberal progressive person and still be aware that a word can be a noun or an adjective depending on the context, english language is quite flexible that way

there's nothing wrong or illiberal to my mind in acknowledging that a person who has entered the country illegally has broken the law and nothing inaccurate in describing that person as an illegal

do you really think calling someone an undocumented person is any better or less hurtful than calling them an illegal? you are accusing them of exactly the same thing, just trying to put yourself up on a snotty pedestal by using more syllables

sort of like the person who "utilizes" stuff while the rest of us peasants simply "use" stuff -- you are not better than me because you use more syllables, you are just more in love with yourself (i don't mean you in particular but the generic second person "you" who thinks that they are better than me because they speaks prettier than me)

i think it's more important to discuss issues honestly than to worry about policing the english language but there is a very large contingent that believes that policing language is more important than speaking honestly -- the "undocumented worker" type blather tells me right away where a person's priorities are

[Moochy]

264. Illiberal thats a new one...

Almost as anomalous as unamerican. :) George Lakoff has much to say about how to speak plainly but not without being aware of the imagery invoked by language. Language use can have intetntional and unintentional side-effects, and that's why it's critical that the Republicans have named so many of the recent disasterous Political events of recent years. For example if you dared oppose "No child left behind" bill it implied you were pro leaving children behind.

[dionysus]

240. i always though it was just a contraction of the term illegal aliens. i can't remember ever having

a conversation on that topic, i don't even remember if i have used the term in conversation.

[Quasimodem]

252. Yes, but . . .

Actually, it is the immigrant’s documentation that is illegal, whether it has run out, is non existent, or is bogus.

'Illegal immigrant' is already an illogical contraction, and calling a person with illegal documentation an 'illegal' merely contracts it further, from illogical to ungrammatical.

[Moochy]

254. Keep going, beyond illogical and ungramatical...

There's a reason its shortened to 'illegals'. It's a right-wing, xenophobic framing, it transfers the illegality from the act to the person themselves.

[Quasimodem]

262. Agreed.

Language and grammar are important tools. We need precision tools to shape our thoughts.

And all too many have very dull tools, indeed.

[dogsmycopilot]

255. not to me

To me it is not ok. It is dehumanizing at best and discriminatory at worst. For one, the only difference between them and us is time. We white Americans were "illegals" when we came here and were helped by the natives, so what's our problem? I can't see America being able to house everyone who wants to be here but I can't see calling those who made it here, no matter the circumstances "illegal."

[TheKentuckian]

258. Unauthorized migrant seems to best ferm for what is happening to me.

Stringent and cherry picking immigration constraints seem pretty damned hypocritical for this country to me. All of us either came because we wanted to or in chains. I don't even really grasp the gall.

Of course as liberal as I am on immigration, I also think it is important for an official language. English makes the most sense because it is the majority tongue but which language it is, is utterly besides the point. Our communication levels and quality are very poor and we are a diverse country, language as a common thread is crucial to our integrity as a society.

Having a whole bunch of little communities unattached not talking to each other, not sharing perspective, and not learning from one another is already kind of a toxic problem, actively promoting the inability to communicate makes a dangerous situation much worse.

[mmonk]

259. I don't use the term. It is used by the Know Nothings to dehumanize

others.

[Orrex]

261. Why not? It's what Addison Graves Wilson calls them, after all...

[anigbrowl]

263. As I said earlier, I'm totally fine with it

And this is something I have first-hand experience of, so to speak. I don't feel slighted when hear the words.

[invictus]

265. I have no problem with the term ILLEGAL ALIEN.