Germans love their Army (pics)

[tocqueville]

Protesters wearing pig masks, German Bundeswehr uniforms and covered in fake blood salute next to a fake memorial to German Bundeswehr soldiers near the German Ministry of Defense on September 8, 2009 in Berlin, Germany. Inside the grounds of the Ministry German President Horst Koehler was to inaugurate a real memorial to the approximately 3,000 German Bundeswehr soldiers who have died in international deployments. The Bundeswehr's role in the ISAF peacekeeping operation in Afghanistan has come under heavy domestic criticism in recent days since the Bundeswehr-targeted attack on two stolen fuel trucks near Kunduz that killed an estimated 125 people, many of them Taliban but also at least some civilians.

http://www.militaryphotos.net
_______________________________________________

blaming (for a still under investigation event) one's Defense Minister is one thing, blaming the troops another. This is a blatant example of a lefty crticism that plays in the hands of the enemy (and right-wingers in your own country).

[cliffordu]

1. You should run right the fuck over there and tell them this.

:eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

4. Exactly! Convey to them that Americans are the new "Good Germans" ...

or just "Sheeple."

Either way, The Pentagon and Wall Street runs our God Almighty Wars. :nuke:

[JVS]

53. OP is French IIRC

[tocqueville]

18. anytime, any place nt

[ShortnFiery]

2. Today's Germans sure know how to put on a protest.

:-)

[JVS]

3. Why should soldiers be exempt from criticism? Was it not the Bundeswehr that attacked those trucks?

[tocqueville]

and the nice Talibans only stood by ?

its unfuckingbelievable

After beheading two drivers the Talibans abducted the trucks making them into potential weapons. The Germans nearby reacted, asked for air support and there was collateral damage. BTW it was US pilot that bombed them and he has the privilege to abort if in doubt.

which side are you on ?

[defendandprotect]

25. What side are you on? Sanity or insanity? War and warmongering or peace?

[LanternWaste]

32. Would that it were so easy...

Would that it were so easy as to be reduced into only two sides....

[tocqueville]

36. I am not on the side of Islamic barbarians

and it's not a possible error of command that will make me change my mind.

We didn't attack those barbarians, they attacked us. And this has nothing to do with warmongering.

[sui generis]

5. the difference is you have to serve in the military in Germany

with few exceptions. I'm not certain what current civic duty is - it was two years when I lived there. So the people who are protesting are almost certainly former soldiers themselves - that's the main reason somebody might feel entitled to criticize their fellow Germans on this subject.

[MissHoneychurch]

7. The soldiers in Afghanistan

are professional soldiers, not soldiers who do their 9 months military service.

Civic duty is now 9 months also.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Bravo for them. 2/3 of the German people oppose our war in Afghanistan.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KI09Df03.html

Afghan war reaches a tipping point
By M K Bhadrakumar

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) handed down to the Taliban a big political victory as a result of the air strikes in the northern province of Kunduz on Friday, which left over 100 people dead and injured. The Taliban propaganda portrayed the incident as "an intentional massacre".

However, the political impact is felt on several planes. These include, first and foremost, the sense of shock in Germany, where well over two-thirds of people already favor a withdrawal of the 4,500-strong German contingent from Afghanistan. Given the burden of history that Germany is fated to carry, the mere suggestion of the Bundeswehr having committed a war crime abroad becomes a sensitive issue. The political class in Berlin will keenly watch how the groundswell of public opinion pans out in
the federal election due on September 27.

Chancellor Angela Merkel demanded on Sunday that the international community needed to "apply pressure in order to find a way to get the Afghans to appreciate that they have to take responsibility step by step ... so that the international engagement can be reduced".

[tocqueville]

16. Anarchists have always collaborated with the enemy

in the name of "peace". Until the enemy gets at them.

[defendandprotect]

28. You're saying that the Germans who are against the war are "anarchists" . . .???

Sounds like you've been listening to Rush --

[tocqueville]

41. the people that organised that little "party"

are anarshits

and they surely don't represent the German people. So don't defend them. One can very well be against the war without insulting the troops.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. Awww...poor troops.

Are you against the war in Afghanistan?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Really? Want to provide some examples. And, who is "the enemy"?

[tocqueville]

48. here is a pic

explicit enough ?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. And, blowing up civilians did what to change that?

Except to give the Taliban more recruits and displays of pictures like these:







But, of course, we aren't "barbarians", are we?

[Threedifferentones]

56. When our own government is guilty of equally horrible crimes, who is the enemy then?

I totally think Saddam deserved to swing from his neck, he was an asshole.

But, I also recognize that, if the same moral standards were applied to our president, they'd all be executed. Clinton and Obama right along with Bush. In rich countries we get to fight "fairly" over resources that were basically raped from other places, which is totally cool....until you actually start thinking.

[defendandprotect]

27. Everyone in the world opposes our wars . . . US/CIA propaganda overcomes that, however .. . !!!

How much pressure is put on these governments to get troops to "go along" with us???

[Solly Mack]

8. Germans love their right to dissent./protest/speech

[proteus_lives]

14. They sure didn't get it from their grandfathers.......

[defendandprotect]

29. No . . . violence and terror by the ruling government tho seems to have taught

the next generation that they need to stand up against political violence right away!!

Unfortunately, we're about 40-50 years behind US political violence right now!

[Kaleko]

58. That's exactly it. Both points you make seem fairly obvious to many people,

including many Europeans I know.

[thereismore]

9. Why do they hate "z troops"? Great masks BTW. nt

[Kaleko]

10. "This is a blatant example of a lefty crticism that plays in the hands of the enemy

(and right-wingers in your own country)."

Republican talking points including 'moran' grammar.

'nuff said.

[fascisthunter]

11. lol

[tocqueville]

13. English is not my primary language

but probably better than your French

try to picture your own soldiers as "bloody pigs" in the US (or in France for that matter) and you'll see how popular it gets

[defendandprotect]

31. Easy to do! Our troops have been trained to be the most brutal and cruel

ever produced!!! And the deaths of 1.3 million Muslims makes that clear!!

Have you read anything about Blackwater and their behaviors?

And, maybe you've forgotten Vietnam --???

And all the other phony wars we've been in and dragged others into?

[Thothmes]

55. Obviously you are ignorant

of the Soviet Army's conduct in Eastern Germany toward the end of the war. You are also obviously ignorant of the conduct of the Imperial Japanese Army in China, the Philippines, Indochina or any other place they occupied during the WWII. You cannot on any large scale find the conduct of American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan that even comes close to the brutality exhibited by the Soviet Army in Germany or the Japanese Army occupations of the Asia.

[Kaleko]

34. I was born and raised in Germany,

but that doesn't mean I'm identified with my nationality. Nor do I consider German soldiers "my own" as you put it, so I don't have to jump up and down in knee-jerk defense when German soldiers are called to take responsibility for their joining the army and committing atrocities in the name of the homeland.

[TahitiNut]

17. Bullshit. Tocqueville has been on DU far longer than you and ...

... (if you'll pull your head out of your ass long enough to see) is a Frenchman. Let's see your facility with a foreign language some time, huh? :eyes:

[daedalus_dude]

24. and his "time at DU" matters, how?

it is still a stupid talking point, even if he was the founder of the site (which he clearly isn't so is post count doesn't place him "above" the "regular" DU people)

[Kaleko]

26. Actually, English is my second language

and French is my third. The length of time someone spends on DU doesn't necessarily prevent them from posting typical Republican talking points on occasion. The sentence I quoted definitely counts as one example.

[defendandprotect]

33. First, how long someone is here is meaningless . . . what matters is

what the post is saying --

This one is saying don't criticize anyone's troops -- or any behavior by the

military! That's not going to play except among the very right-wing zealots.

[tocqueville]

39. the display portrays the troops as butchers

or else other symbols can be chosen than people in fatigues in front of a fake memorial.

this gives unnecessary "proofs" to RWingers that the left is unpatriotic and is exactly what the Talibans expect to create war fatigue among civilians.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. Civilians are already "fatigued" with the lost war in Afghanistan.

Particularly, the Germans, where over 2/3rds of them oppose our little venture into swagger and bloodletting.

[damntexdem]

12. Support the troops!

;-)

[proteus_lives]

15. What a bunch of assholes.

Time and place, time and place.

[daedalus_dude]

19. K&R for "Wir trampeln durch die Beete, wir trampeln durch die Saat ..."

"... huraah wir verblöden, für uns bezahlt der Staat."

[tocqueville]

20. this is the real free Germany (pic)

Wreaths placed inside the German Bundeswehr memorial site during its inauguration ceremony in Berlin, Germany, 08 September 2009. The memorial honours all military and civilian members of Germany's army who died in action, at the time 3,100 people. An inscription (not depicted) reads 'For our Bundeswehr comrades who died defending freedom, peace and justice' ('Den Toten unserer Bundeswehr fuer Frieden Recht und Freiheit'). The building's shell consists of sheet bronze with cut outs, each of which resembles half an identification tag. These tags are divided when a soldier dies in action






fuer Frieden Recht und Freiheit

[Kaleko]

40. My friends and relatives in Germany would disagree with your characterization.

The real free Germany includes provocative protests against all sorts of things every day, thankfully!

[tocqueville]

46. the right to dissent

doesn't the give you the right to spit on the memory of the fallen, this protest was done in front of a fake memorial, the same day the fallen were honored.

[Kaleko]

50. In reality, everyone living in Germany these days has the right

to spit on the memory of the fallen any time they want. Legalized freedom of expression, you know? It's a good thing.

Unless you'd like Germans to go back to the bad old days when Nazis were exercising their von der Vorsehung gegebenes Recht to institutionalize suppression.

[Call Me Wesley]

21. I wouldn't put much thought in it, honestly.

And I really don't think it plays into the hands of right-wingers. It's a legitimate protest against what's going on in Afghanistan, and since the secretary of defense in Germany still doesn't have the balls to call it 'war,' while everyone else does, I think it's fine. It's not a 'peacekeeping' operation anymore.

If you look at the second picture, read the street name in the background: 'Stauffenbergstrasse,' which makes it even more ironic. It will have no impact but it's a nice photo-op. No biggie.

[daedalus_dude]

22. oh, yes, Stauffenberg.

A political opportunist of royal blood who waited who would win before acting out his self-interest.

Never mind the regular soldiers that defected during WWII. They are still considered criminials today.

[Call Me Wesley]

30. Stauffenberg excused the whole nobility

from being responsible for anything during WWII, and these are not my words but the words of Marion Countess of Döhnhoff. With Stauffenberg as tehir hero, it was pretty easy to forget that the son of the former emperor Wilhelm II. got very excited to put on his SA-shirt and march along, as did many, many, many others of royal blood. You're right with that.

For the defecting soldiers, there is some new law and most of them will be rehabilitated - too late, of course.

[provis99]

37. Marion Dohnhoff, the friend of Nazi foreign minister Ribbentrop?

yeah, real credible source there. She spent her whole career whining about the Prussian Junkers losing their ill-gotten lands to the Russians.

[Call Me Wesley]

43. Do you mean Lehndorff?

Can you give me a link? Marion Döhnhoff never whined about losing the lands of her family - on the contrary. She was the publisher of a very liberal newspaper for a long time, friend of Helmut Schmidt, and Willy Brandt wanted to have her run for the German presidency.

Yes, she was one of the Prussian Junkers, and yes, she was a conservative liberal (at least from my left standpoint,) but you have to provide me with a few links about her friendship with Ribbentrop.

[provis99]

35. opportunist?

He was in favor of a socialist government, not a return to the monarchy or domination by the nobility. So piss on you.

[Call Me Wesley]

45. First, please don't attack other members here,

second, if you really believe Stauffenberg was in favor of a Socialist government, when he was actually believing in monarchy and a German Empire, please provide a few links I can read through.

[MissHoneychurch]

38. Thanks CMW n/t

[Call Me Wesley]

47. Thank you.

Sometimes, stuff is exaggerated.

You have a very interesting election coming up there. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

23. Certainly the Germans understand what troops can and have done . . .in obeying . . .

blaming (for a still under investigation event) one's Defense Minister is one thing, blaming the troops another. This is a blatant example of a lefty crticism that plays in the hands of the enemy (and right-wingers in your own country).

Why should any troops be in Afghanistan or Iraq? Both immoral wars by US and "go along" allies.

This is right-wing, upside down commentary --

[Kaleko]

52. Ja genau. ;)

Germans in general are absolutely allergic to authoritarian crap coming from either extreme, the left or the right. Protests against the Iraq war before Bush started bombing drew huge crowds across the nation. Being forced to participate in the Afghanistan debacle is drawing the ire of every upstanding citizen. And they are very vocal about it. When my mother mentions Angela Merkel, she never stops adding this bit: "die ist dem Bush gleich erstmal in den Arsch gekrochen," (she crawled up Bush's ass right after her election).

[Gold Metal Flake]

54. My! What a finger-shaking little prick you are today!

[DutchLiberal]

57. The Universal Soldier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYEsFQ_gt7c