Origins of the American “Mean Streak”: Or Universal Healthcare in Europe is Not Really Universal

[McCamy Taylor]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-dejevsky/mary--dejevsky-a-mean-streak-in-the-us-mainstream-1776795.html

So, American’s have a “mean streak” which prevents us from wanting what is best for our neighbors. And that is why we can not get healthcare reform passed! Silly me. I thought it had something to do with all the money special interests have poured into the hands of a few politicians. I thought that the angry mobs who showed up to threaten Congressmen were a tiny fringe, bought and paid for by the insurance companies and the medical industrial complex. Who knew that when Americans told pollsters that they wanted healthcare reform and a public option they were all lying! And when they elected Obama with a mandate to reform health care, those mean spirited Americans did not really mean it. No, they were just having a good laugh at the expense of those less fortunate than themselves.

Thank God our relatives across the Atlantic have enlightened us. Hmm. Maybe I should do the neighborly thing and return the favor. It is always a good thing to know yourself.

The Pigneto neighborhood is one of the most culturally diverse in Rome. City residents consider it bohemian and flock to its ethnic restaurants and quaint stores. But last weekend the trendiness turned to ugliness when a group of around 20 balaclava-clad men, some wearing bandannas with swastikas, demolished shops and beat up non-Italian shopkeepers—mostly Chinese, Indian and Bangladeshi—with lead pipes and baseball bats. CCTV footage captured much of the violence, and residents reported that the gangs chanted "Get out, bastard foreigners."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/139019

The Newsweek piece goes on to describe violence against the Roma (Gypsies), Jews, Tunisians. And it includes this alarming statistic:

A recent poll shows that nearly 70 percent of Italians want Roma and other "undesirable" immigrants expelled.

Compare this to a Wall Street Journal article written during the Bush administration which described a poll in which the majority of Americans wanted to see immigration continue---and only a conservative minority were distressed at the thought of “foreigners” in “their” country.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115032093365180439-pqAx4aKGviHSMg8DDJucHDMsA3A_20070614.html

Yes, there are people living in the U.S. who despise people of other races or ethnicity. (If you review my journals, you can read more about them.) And yes, there are people living in Europe who welcome new ideas and cultures. However, the majority here is comfortable with the melting pot. The majority over there wants to kick the foreigners out.

Here is more about the fate of immigrants in Europe. Amnesty International put out a report in 2005 about police violence against immigrants in France :

An investigation into cases of police violence between 1991 and 2005 revealed that racism was a "major element" in such incidents. Most of the victims are of Arab or African origin.

"People have been racially abused, beaten and even killed by the police in France, yet the French judicial system is failing to investigate and punish human rights abuses by police officers," said the charity's UK director, Kate Allen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-police-use-excessive-violence-against-immigrants-amnesty-claims-528540.html

Here is an article about Germany:

As the world's conscience has awakened from its long nap and started prosecuting the war criminals who have committed savage and cruel crimes against Muslims in Bosnia, it seems that the inhuman wave of ethnic cleansing started in the former Yugoslavia has became so contagious throughout Europe that it has become difficult and unsafe for immigrants and refugees to live in peace and security.
Violence and hate crimes have flared lately in many European countries, from Bosnia and Chechnya to Albania and Macedonia; countries in which people have suffered, and continue to do so, from ethnic wars directed against them for no other reason than being different in either ethnicity or religion, or both.
In Great Britain, Asian people suffer race harassment from extremists who do not accept foreigners in their country. In Germany, immigrants and refugees are being subjected to brutality at the hands of right-wing extremists who instigate hate crimes and assaults; such attacks have increased against in recent months, leading people to accuse and criticize the inability of the German government to stop the violence and protect foreigners.
Snip
On June 13, 1997, six-year-old Joseph Abdulla, the son of an Iraqi immigrant, died in a swimming pool in a small town in Germany. His parents collected signed testimonies from almost twenty witnesses, including youths and adults, who confirm that several young people forcibly pulled the little boy, from where he was lying, by his hands into the pool. Joseph tried to escape, but the group of youths - who were shouting, "You foreign pig!" - held him tight. One of them opened his mouth and another girl poured water into it. The young boy tried to tear himself away. He held on desperately, but the group went descended on him and pulled his fingers from the pipe he was holding on to. Then, they carried him in a towel to the deep part of the pool while a young woman was shouting, "Do it. Chuck him in. Sh*t foreigner."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1156077733813&pagename=Zone-English-Muslim_Affairs%2FMAELayout

Maybe you thought that the only country on earth which persecutes those of African descent is the United States? Read this piece, from 2008 about the alarming high rate of violence against Africans living on Europe. The next atrocity occurred in Switzerland:

On May 1, 2007, in a Zurich suburb, unknown men shouting obscenities about Africans attacked Antonio da Costa, a 43-year-old refugee from Angola. The attackers used chainsaws to rake da Costa’s face, neck, and chest, nearly severing his left thumb, and severely slashing one arm; he required six hours of emergency surgery. There were reportedly no arrests, although a prosecutor said video surveillance footage was being used in the investigation.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/discrimination/reports.aspx?s=racism-and-xenophobia&p=victims

Be sure to scroll down to read more disturbing instances of violence against immigrants----violence which is often condoned by political leaders.

Politicians across Europe capitalized on growing public xenophobia, contributing to anti-immigrant rhetoric and blaming immigrants for political, economic, and social problems. In a number of countries, social and political problems were blamed with new vigor on immigrant workers, including those from within the expanded European Union, and in particular on members of the Roma minority. Anti-immigrant scapegoating in Italy, Germany, Greece, and Switzerland received national and international attention.

For example, Italy’s Berlusconi declared “increase neighbourhood police forces who would place themselves between the people of Italy and the army of evil.”

http://www.thehindu.com/2008/04/17/stories/2008041762081400.htm

Let’s see. What are the warning signs of fascism again? From Robert Paxton:

A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

“Obsessive preoccupation with community decline” Check.

“Nationalist militants”. Check.

“Working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites” Check.

“Violence.” Check.

“Internal cleansing.” Check.

I hope folks in Europe are familiar with the words of George Santayana.

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”

But at least Europeans are willing to overcome their prejudice against immigrants and provide healthcare for all….

Médecins du Monde (MdM) has been since its creation particularly sensitive to the issue of migrants , who are some of the most vulnerable groups throughout the world, especially in terms of the right to health and of effective access to health care. In this respect, Europe is no exception. Even though the European Union’s Charter of Fundamental Rights reaffirms the right of everyone to access to preventive health care and the right to benefit from medical treatment (article 35), it is limited by the conditions established by national laws and practices. There is therefore a wide gap between the general principle of access to health care and its application in each country.

As a result, in most European Union (EU) countries, foreigners (especially undocumented migrants’) access to health care is much more restricted than it is for nationals. In some countries, they have access only to vital emergency health care; in others, even if access to health care is in the law, its effectiveness is limited by complex procedures

http://www.mdm-international.org/spip.php?article103

Um…what the fuck? We are being lectured to about how “mean” we are because we do not have universal healthcare by people do not have universal healthcare?!

Here is a report about Sweden. You know, progressive socialized Sweden.

Ohlson gave the example of cancer patients who are denied life-saving treatment until they can make an advance payment. One such case involved a woman with cancer of the uterus who needed an operation and radiotherapy.

Other immigrants say that they have not been given treatment because they do not have a personal number. Twelve women in the study were pregnant, but got no access to antenatal care.

Sweden places more restrictions on healthcare provision for illegal immigrants than almost any other country in the European Union, according to MSF.

http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/2005/11/illegal-immigrants-in-sweden-are-being.html

Here is Doctors Without Borders on Belgium:

Legal grey areas and a lack of coordination concerning medical care for illegal immigrants among Public Centres for Social Assistance (Publique d’Aide Sociale- CPAS) have created a disparate and unpredictable system. Processes for obtaining medical care differs from commune to commune and quality varies from effective to Kafkaesque.

For example, one regular practice in some communes requires a patient to visit a doctor to prove he is ill in order to be allowed to see a doctor to be treated.

"The failures of the system have severe consequences for those most in need of help- mainly immigrants, but also poor Belgians," explains MSF head of mission for Belgium, Laurent Vanhorebeke. "While the Belgian healthcare system should provide for everyone, illegal or otherwise, the reality is that red tape and in some cases, total incoherence, threaten the health of thousands of people,"

http://www.msf.org.au/media-room/press-releases/press-release/article/access-denied-in-the-belgian-healthcare-system.html

Some of the countries are proud to provide (emergency only) care to immigrants. Italy is one of them. I know another country that provides emergency care to any immigrant (or anyone else) that asks for it. The United States. Seems to me that the European and the United States healthcare systems are not so different after all. The group in power in each country has taken care of itself. It is just that in Europe they spread the power around a little bit more liberally. But don’t be fooled. On the far side of the Atlantic, the Little Match Girl is still on the outside looking in. It is just that now she wears a headscarf and would abstain from pork----if she could afford meat.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

1. Sorry but I call BS

I was born, raised and lived in Italy for a good chunk of my life. Health care is provided to all legal residents of Italy. That is, anyone who possesses a valid permit (permesso) and pays into the national health system's pool. Indeed, my city of Bologna has a numero verde (the Italian equivalent of a toll-free number) for assistance in many languages for non-Italian speaking residents. There are a couple of clinics solely dedicated to non-Italian speakers. In fact, one of these provides healthcare regardless of residency status.

As for the Roma, have you ever been pickpocketed by a 9-year old kid? Have you ever been harassed by a bunch of young men? Have you seen the tent cities some (not all) Roma choose to live in, rather than integrate into society?

As for the gangs going around Rome and destroying stores belonging to people of other ethnicities, the fact that this is news is precisely because it doesn't happen everyday. And most people abhor that kind of behavior. As for Berlusconi, everyone knows he's an idiot. Italy is nowhere near fascism, no more than NC is anywhere close to become KKK-land.

You write as if the U.S. provides health care to all immigrants, legal or otherwise. BS, total utter BS. I am a legal immigrant (indeed, a 'green card' holder) and, like everyone else in the U.S., I must get health care either through my employer or by purchasing a policy on my own.

An immigrant who is not here legally would probably resort to emergency room care which, in the end, we all end up paying for.

Lest you forget, there are many parts of the U.S. where the same type of bigotry and racism go on unabated and don't even make the news. I live in NC, for instance, and I have seen my share of shit.

[rpannier]

2. I'm gonna call u on your Roma bashing

I lived in Prague for a few years and traveled through much of Europe during that time

The Roma have been discriminated against for centuries by Europeans and still are

Most Roma steal because they are prevented from getting jobs in mainstream society

They do NOT choose to live in squalor they are forced to live in squalor and have for several hundred years

[Kitty Herder]

4. The way you speak about the Roma,

you sound just like a white racist in the U.S. speaking about blacks.

Not cool.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Bashing of the Roma people is accepted on DU

I read far worse stuff than this recently.

[redqueen]

11. And in Italy? Is it accepted there? (nt)

[McCamy Taylor]

33. Seriously? I would love to get a private tell with a link. Remember the Roma were one of Hitler's

favorite groups to target and kill, and promoting fear of the Roma is a marker of European fascism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. You're confusing two issues:

1. Violence against immigrants. We've gone through spurts of that, too. It's especially bad in Europe now because mass immigration into the European countries is a relatively recent phenomenon (40 years or less, depending on the country), so their mean and dumb types are lashing out in a sort of tribal way. But even here in Minneapolis, prejudice against the Somali community is so high that the online Minneapolis Star-Tribune disables comments whenever an article deals with Somalis or individual Somalis, even tangentially.

2. Access to health care. If you've participated in online discussions of health care elsewhere, you know that one thing the right-wingers get bent out of shape about is the prospect of illegal immigrants flooding north from Mexico to get free health care. They'd rather die in the street themselves than have their local hospital treat one illegal immigrant who has been mangled in farm machinery.

The fact is that no country I know of provides unlimited access to its national health system for non-legal residents. That includes someone who sneaks in from the Third World or someone who is there on a Rick Steves tour. When I lived in Japan on a student visa, I was enrolled in their national health care system. The one time I used the system as a tourist (infected cut), I paid full price.

When I went to the UK, I checked up on their health care regulations, which clearly state that they will provide emergency and stabilization care to people who are not legal residents of the UK or another European Union country but not rehab or follow-up. (The European Union and a few other countries have reciprocal arrangements for health care.) So if I or anyone else from outside Western Europe went to a European country and announced that I wanted free cancer treatment there, I would be denied.

So basically, universal health care means that all legal residents get it.

[Echo In Light]

5. Thanks for the facts!

[George II]

6. Thanks...very good compilation of facts ...and thanks for sticking up for US!!

One doesn't see that happen much on DU these days.

[DuaneBidoux]

18. There is simply no equivalency. Sorry.

There really are about 10% crazy fringe parts in Europe. No doubt. But they are crazy, and they are fringe, unlike the middle america to which the original author was referring that make up a good 40% of the pop.

Also, until you have been abroad in Europe and truly understood what the Arab swamping of Europe is doing to the culture you have no way to appreciate it. I lived in Paris, there are entire neighborhoods where Arab immigrants have declared their own laws and stone women for adultery (and still perform female circumcision which is illegal in France). People that call the Paris police instead of the man placed in charge by the "local" Islamic government are later beaten up or even killed. An entire group of people who do not believe in the separation of govt and church (hell, most don't even know it's not the same thing) are beginning to pick away at a proud secular French traditions--and yes the French ARE scared if their new illegal immigrants. And it is happening in Germany, and it is happening in Italy.

I've lived abroad in Europe--I totally agree with the original author and the current author's thoughts are misinformed at best.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DuaneBidoux]

21. Sorry my friend. I told the truth.

I am not advocating anything--I am trying to make it very clear that they have a severe problem and anyone commenting on it who has not lived there is not making a statement that sheds light.

I stated nothing that was not true. Many liberals and progressives believe that there is no room to judge others for behaviors regardless of how barbaric. I do not believe this. When people of any color/race/creed/religion start stoning women and cutting off little girls clits I make judgements.

If you're curious about the phenomenon that makes progressives unwilling to make any moral judgements what-so-ever you might try and check out the phrase "mean-green-meme." Check out Spiral-Dynamics while you're at it.

[George II]

22. People living where they want is a "severe problem"? Did anyone bother asking the American Indians?

[DuaneBidoux]

23. No, they didn't. Why do you think when I say that I'm justifying ANY other actions

I know full well what the Native Americans went through (my undergraduate was ethnography of native American peoples and I studied the atrocities in depth).

I don't care where people live--I care what they do.

Bush torturing people was evil-he should be thrown in prison.
Right wing Christian zealots (who as a matter of fact I put in the same league as Islamic fundamentalist zealots)who kill doctors for performing legal acts of compassionate medicine are evil.

I can't apologize for all the evils of humans in all cultures at all times just in order to acknowledge the evil now--and evil 250 years ago doesn't make evil today less evil.

I do not subscribe to the idea that my enemies enemy is my friend--thus just be Coulter trash talks Islam doesn't mean I will automatically dismiss atrocities by Islamic fundamentalists committed against (especially) women. It seems to me you are confusing narrow minded ethnocentric ignorant bigotry with any judgment, no matter how thought out and rationally based.

In any case, I pretty much see all mythically based religions of any ilk as being a throwback which must eventually be eliminated for humans to make it through the next phase of their evolution. I have always been fascinated by the fact that the more secular the country the more their actions seem to actually follow the words of Jesus. I don't think this is coincidence. I believe it goes with the stage of human development that coincided with the emergence of mythic religions (Every single mythic religion has a certain kind of cruelty that existed nowhere else before their emergence. This includes Buddhist fundamentalism, Hindu fundamentalism and many others (which doesn't mean I think these people have any fewer rights than anyone else--globally they should have the same rights).


Many progressives are so afraid to judge the actions of anyone except their own because it initially sounds like the words historically spoken before some of the worse actions of humans. I recognize this but think it is the wrong reason not to be willing to strive for human rights for all. Please do not judge my comments by initially superficial observations that make you believe I am a Coulter or a Bush or a Beck. I am nothing of the kind.

[DuaneBidoux]

24. Again, just to suggest: look up Spiral Dynamics and "mean green meme"

I think you might find these theories of human cultural evolution quite enlightening or at the very least quite thought provoking.

chow! And I hope you can still call me a fellow progressive.

[George II]

27. Thanks - I'll give it a try, "Ciao" - fear not, I never thought you weren't a fellow progressive...

[George II]

26. Expanding on your experience, I grew up in Brookly and Queens NY during the '50s through '90s....

....and the thinking at that time, with population shifts and immigration, was:

"Italians are taking over our neighborhoods, then it became "Blacks are taking over our neighborhoods", then it became "Puerto Ricans are taking over our neighborhoods". Then in the '70s it became "Polish/Bulgarian/Czech/Slovaks (take your pick) are taking over our neighborhoods", and in the '80s it became "Russians who are taking over our neighborhoods". Now in the '90s and later it's "Chinese and Koreans are taking over our neighborhoods". In fact, when the Koreans began buying up whole blocks of houses and stores in Flushing, if a white (most likely Jewish) family stayed, they were threatened and intimidate into selling out to Koreans.

No matter what the era, there was one ethnic group or another "swamping" our neighborhoods, and people were worried and angry. Each time a different ethnicity moved in, there was a certain percentage who you would call the "crazy fringe" and crime rose. Some of it was because of their economic situation (i.e., POOR), some because of the persecution they experienced, and some was just simply because the criminal element in each neighborhood recognized the fear of the people and took advantage of it.

Snitches in our neighborhoods were beated up or even killed.

I lived in middle class neighborhoods in NYC during the last half of the 20th Century. My thoughts are based on fact and experience.

[DuaneBidoux]

30. I have experienced no real prejudice against Arabs while living in France.

What I have felt is digust when a little Arab girl is brought in which a severe infection bordering on fatal because her parents believed girls had no right to sexual pleasure and they had used their own methods to cut off her clit because it was illegal in France and they couldn't find a medically "safe" environment in a French hospital. This is not bullshit. And it isn't "Italians" or "Blacks" or in the case of France even "Arabs" taking over the country that is causing consternation.

I think if you were to do some serious reading of some thinking of current Arab feminists who are living in Europe (and who incidently tend to have extremely progressive political streaks) you might have at least a little bit of an appreciation that what you talk about in the 50s and 60s is not the same as this.

It is a group of religious fundamentalists the likes of which Europe hasn't seen for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years. My original comment was simply that the OP had not the perspective, perhaps even as the British columnist didn't have the perspective to comment on the American healthcare debate, to make a judgement.

Most French are quite comfortable with Arab friends and have had Arab immigrants since their stupid behaviors (meaning the French's stupid behavior) in Africa. But these immigrants were educated, secular, and had a great respect for the achievements in human rights made by Europe since (and only since) WWII. (even if they were Islamic) (French in Algeria). But France has seen in the last 10 years a group of people arriving that are so alien to western culture that they have indeed been creating their own internal fundamentalist governments within the French borders. If you doubt this then do the research. My own parents who only recently passed on (they're French although I am American by birth) had many arab friends including a Morocan friend of thirty years--even these Arab friends were quite frightened by the new trend in religious fundamentalists arriving in the country.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[McCamy Taylor]

34. "Arab swamping?" How is this term different from the U.S. far right's attacks on Latinos?

Answer, it isn't. I too have traveled through Europe and some of the best culture I have encountered would be considered "foreign".

[maddezmom]

45. before using a hot term like Arabs swamping Europe, you might want to see who else uses it

http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2009/08/04/eliot-weinberger/muslim-shark-alert/
~snip~

Meanwhile, the New York Times is strangely preoccupied with a more metaphorical conjunction of sharks and foreign takeover: the scary Muslims now lurking by the canals and lakes of placid Old Europe. In the last week alone, Stephen Pollard’s review of the ‘unquestionably correct’ Bruce Bawer (the subject of a previous blog) was followed by a tribute to Christopher Caldwell’s Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam and the West by daily reviewer Dwight Garner, which in turn led to a front-page review of the Caldwell book in the Sunday Book Review by Fouad Ajami, Dick Cheney’s favorite Muslim. (Ajami was the one who predicted that the streets of Baghdad would ‘erupt in joy’ at the arrival of the American troops, and whose book on the Iraq war has the priceless title The Foreigner’s Gift.)

Garner, normally a literary critic with eclectic interests, finds ‘lucidity and intellectual grace and even wit’ in Caldwell’s ‘well-researched, fervently argued and morally serious book’. As an example, he cites this dizzying sentence:

The Islamic world is an economic and intellectual basket case, the part of the potentially civilised world most left behind by progress.

It is difficult to know what Caldwell means by ‘the part of the potentially civilised world’. Is the whole world either civilised or potentially civilised; or is the world divided in three: the civilised, the potentially civilised and the never-will-be-civilised? Whatever ‘civilised’ and ‘progress’ mean, the former is absurd (many Islamic nations are more developed than other countries); the latter carries colonial disdain to an extreme.

It is equally difficult to see how the phrase ‘economic basket case’ applies to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, unless it refers to their notoriously overflowing shopping baskets. As for the intellectual poverty of the ‘Islamic world’, one can only begin to make the basket case if one excludes the cafés and publishing houses of Cairo and Beirut and Karachi and Delhi, the Iranian cinema, the countless Muslim intellectuals in the West, the art scene in Dubai, and on and on. (A few months ago, in the space of two weeks, I visited the Tunis Book Fair, which was packed with around 100,000 visitors, and the similarly sized BookExpo in New York, whose aisles were largely empty.)

Garner uncritically repeats the claim that Muslims are ‘swamping Europe demographically’ and multiplying like bunnies. A few minutes research would have revealed that there are two sets of population statistics: those of the Islamophobes and those of everyone else. Bruce Bawer states that 20 per cent of Switzerland is now Muslim; everyone else says it’s 4 per cent. (No doubt he has mistaken yodelling for ululation.) The general consensus is that Muslims now make up merely 3.6 per cent of the population of Western Europe, and the fertility rate of European Muslims is a fraction of 1 per cent higher than that of Christians. Allowing that second and third and fourth generations of immigrants tend to be better educated and have higher incomes, and thus have less children, and that intermarriage is common, it doesn’t seem likely there will be ever be a muzzein at the top of the Eiffel Tower, let alone, as the I-phobes warn, Sharia law in Denmark and Britain. But dull statistics, alas, cannot compete with an ‘Invasion of the Body Snatchers’ scenario.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. And yet the US is the only one of these nations that has law

supporting discrimination by one group against another. Both places have groups of nuts and bigots, only the US refuses equal treatment under the law for all people, only the US has 'liberals' that support such bigotry in the name of their 'faith'. Only the US Government provides religious groups with guidance to help them discriminate against the minorities they don't like without losing their tax payer funding.
So while they have Right Wing groups, and we do, only Americans feel free to place into law policies that discriminate against millions of people, merely to serve the religious whims of bigots. Deal with that, for it is a fact. People in America get fired daily for being gay, some of them by the Government itself, by our very President. In America, gay people can be evicted and refused housing freely and legally in most states. Legally. Not a band of thugs, but civic and even 'Democratic' leaders do this. The law does this. Without shame. And when this huge bigotry is pointed out, the Americans hem and haw about how God told them they were better than 'those people', so they can not even look at making the laws fair and equal. They fight to preserve the right to discriminate under the law, which at this time allows for open discrimination in housing and employment. In the United States. Against GLBT people.
And you wish to mitigate that bigotry by speaking of mobs of thugs in Rome? Are those thugs in Congress? Are they in the Oval saying that 'God is in the mix' so gays can not be equal? Or are they just thugs? We have thugs too. Also we have 'leaders' that freely divide us and promote inequality under the law.
You must be so proud of that! Legal discrimination! Add to that the violent bashings and murders by the US thugs, and got to tell you, Europe comes out on top. For their thugs are thugs, not Committee Chairs and DNC leaders.

[rpannier]

39. Wow

"And you wish to mitigate that bigotry by speaking of mobs of thugs in Rome? Are those thugs in Congress?"
Berlusconi and his Party in Italy have been railing against the Roma and passing draconian laws against the Roma

Many Roma have been hiding out in Serbia because they were chased out of Croatia and Kosovo. Many had their homes (in reality hovels) burned, their animals killed and their children harassed

In many areas of Europe most businesses won't hire Roma. Those that do quite often fire them because the public won't patronize their businesses

In Russia non-whites and gays are routinely attacked by far-right groups and the police will often not investigate.
When the attackers are arrested, they are seldom convicted
Gay rights groups and their supporters are arrested and abused by Russian police

In many areas of eastern Germany attacks against minorities (racial and sexual) are treated as very minor incidents by authorities

In Switzerland, Holland and Austria far right political parties that run on anti-immigration policies have received a greater share of the vote in recent years. Enough in some cases (Switz) to be the ruling party or a major partner in a coalition

[endarkenment]

9. Wow. So our health care system is great after all. Who knew?

"Seems to me that the European and the United States healthcare systems are not so different after all."

I just wonder why you are here.

[Johnboi70]

10. Apples and oranges

It seems to me that comparing America and Europe is like comparing apples and oranges. But, if you insist on it, you should be cognizant of the fact that the worst elements of American society are being overlooked in this discussion.

On one hand, Europeans do have problems with integration and bigotry. Switzerland is especially xenophobic. While living there, I was told by Swiss that they like Americans because they know that we eventually go home! Germany has been host to a large resident Turkish population for two generations now and has resolutely refused to allow them to be citizens. Indeed, the Romans observed that Germans were uniquely loath to intermarry with other groups. On the other hand, violence alone against blacks in this country far eclipses what you see in Europe. Sadly, it doesn't get the coverage in the press that it should. As far as political rights go, haven't you ever wondered why Mississippi, a state with a nearly 40% black population and a plurality of registered Democrats is so resolutely red? Couldn't that justifiably be called apartheid?

Compared to other parts of the globe, the Europeans are surprisingly tolerant. The biggest knock against them is that they fail to live up to their own high moral standards when it comes to dealing with groups which, for various and complex reasons, are on the margins of society... mostly Roma and Muslims. I mean, the Roma have been marginalized for centuries and many of the current issues are a result of that marginalization. Muslim and European civilizations developed in opposition to one another, resulting in large amounts of cultural baggage going both ways. In America, the poor are treated really badly... shockingly so. Part of the reason this is accepted is the simple fact that Americans see economic success as a moral issue. Economic failure represents laziness or some other, similar failing. This is an attitude as old as the republic and it absolves us from dealing with poverty as a societal failing. That indifference to poverty could justifiably be called a "mean streak." It's the same sort of attitude lampooned by Dickens in Oliver Twist and it's alive and well in America.

[McCamy Taylor]

35. Making excuses for the persecution of Muslims and Roma? How would you feel

if someone were to make excuses for the war we treat Native Americans, because of our "history" of conflict.

The way that would be fascist elite use fear of the "other" to keep workers divided and conquered os just the same here and in Europe. It is simply easier for the bosses to exploit differences in a melting pot like the U.S.

[Johnboi70]

47. I never made an excuse for it. You're reading one into what I wrote. n/t

[Johnboi70]

48. Come to think of it...

Honestly, I don't understand how you could have read everything I wrote and then summarize it as "making excuses for the persecution of Muslims and Roma" and then make insulting allusions to the genocide against Native Americans.

So let me put a finer point on it...

Racism and poverty in America are both far worse than in Europe, despite Americans holding ourselves to LOWER standards and LYING to ourselves about how bad things really are. Pointing a finger at Europeans and saying "you're not so perfect" doesn't change the fact that America's problems are actually far worse.

Now, there are reasons that America's problems are worse and there are also reasons why Europeans, despite having lofty goals, still manage to fall short of them. Understanding those reasons is NOT the same as making excuses. Frankly, I would think that after 8 years of Bush playing that very same game, people on DU would know the difference.

[Libertas1776]

12. While we,

here in the US, hold copyright on our own unique brand of bat shit crazy, I think the post gives a helpful reminder to those on the other side of the pond that they themselves have their own share of "mean streaks." I don't think the post was implying that we have a superior health care system, which we most certainly do not (and if he/she was, well then they are flat out wrong) The post makes a good number of points and introduces thought provoking facts. While their systems may be superior in their theory, it is not always the case in practice (usually only for a certain segment of the population of which you know I am talking about) Universal health care ought to improve the quality of lives for its recipients, but I highly doubt the kids who were torching all those cars and rioting in the ghettos of the outer arrondismonts of Paris are getting the same care and treatment afforded to the more affluent Franco-phone citizenry. While we in America barely have a prosthetic leg, if not a rotted wood peg, to stand on by way of criticizing Europe about their health care, I think it is fair to say that in many locales, immigrant populations, Roma peoples, and the destitute are not getting that famous "socialized health care" that we all rave about (and should have). Europe, in my opinion, is just as xenophobic and racist as the US and vice versa; the only difference is that they have better food.

[JCMach1]

13. Thanks for reminding DUers that Europe is not a Liberal Utopia by any stretch

of the imagination...

I am always glad to be back in the U.S. after visiting there.

[ParkieDem]

15. I agree, JCMach

There's no doubt that on the whole, Europeans are more "enlightened" than Americans. And while I love to visit Europe, like you, I am always glad to return to the US (even deep-red Texas) after my trips there.

I've lived in the UK and Germany, and those places have their fair share of xenophobic, closed-minded asshats just like we do. With respect to immigration, I think the gap between the political elites in Europe and the everyday citizen is even greater there than it is here. While most of the debate in the US is about illegal immigration, most people in Europe want to further restrict legal immigration (which in some countries is already much more restrictive than in the US).

There really is a major push-pull that will impact Europe in the coming decades: most European countries have a declining birth rate, which necessitates immigration .... but many of these potential immigrants come from cultures that, for whatever reason, are not as comfortable with the idea of open, liberal democracy. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[JCMach1]

38. Exactly, most countries there are one police incident away

from major rioting again.

[madfloridian]

16. Did you read the Independent UK article I posted?

Have you seen videos of the ugly town halls here?

Are you aware that our own party's leaders will keep us from having real health care reform because of those people who are so mean-spirited as to say they don't want health care for all?

Let's see, which Republican senator told a lady in the crowd who husband was sent home from the nursing on tubes....to let her neighbors help take care of him?...that the government should not have a role?

[redqueen]

29. It has nothing to do with being meanspirited. It is a bout PROFIT.

And those 23% percent or so who scream their idiot heads off at town halls are the distinct minority in this country.

Come on... you know this.

[JCMach1]

37. Don't get me wrong, I love Europe...

But before I traveled so much I used to have so very high ideals about Europe that don't match-up to the reality.

Nor, do I go with the Conservatives who push the idea of America Uber Alles.

However, when it comes to that ideal of openness and freedom America (is still alas) America.

Living in the corporatized oligarchy of the UAE has only made my longing for this stronger.

Literally, it was good to be able to tell my daughters (when I visited the U.S. embassy in Dubai this week)... It's okay, have a drink of water during Ramadan here you won't be fined, arrested, or harassed... the embassy is American soil.

Racism in Europe seems to get a little worse every time I visit... :(

Formerly open countries like the Netherlands and Belgium are having a rough time dealing with the fact that they are now multi-cultural societies with a growing minority population.

America (as messed-up as we are) has been dealing head-on with these in a serious way the last 50 odd years. Europe has not been dealing with it over most of that time.

[DuaneBidoux]

20. As far as I know no place (isn't that what Utopia actually means?) is Utopia,

I guess if you're glad to be back in the US it depends on what part you 0re going back to.

In any case, much of what the author in this post referred to is a truly fringe group of extreme right wing nut jobs (vs. the mainstream nut jobs).

The immigration problem (and it is truly a problem) is a vexing one for the Europeans. Unlike our south of the border immigrants who come here with a very similar cultural background (comparatively speaking)many of the illegal Arab immigrants are coming with ways that are in complete conflict and contradiction to European modern secular tradition. The Europeans are (rightly I believe) proud of finally having thrown off the yoke of religious government over 2000 years and greatly fear the ideas of the Islamic immigrants coming to their shores.

I lived in Paris. Right now there are entire neighborhoods where Islamic leaders have "declared" Islamic law in the quartier. Any conflict or legal issue in the neighborhood is expected to be brought to this "local" Islamic government. If it is found that someone has gone to Paris police dept. that person will be beaten or worse. I can't even count the number of honor killings of women there have been in those neighborhoods. Paris authorities say it is dozens but they're not sure because most never get reported.

Many of the girls who live in this neighborhood have been subjected to female circumcision because it is illegal in France and so they do it themselves. They are electing local officials that don't even have the concept in their head that government is not religion (forget "separation" because most can't picture them as anything other than a single governing entity).

I will admit this about the original author: perhaps she had as much business commenting on the American situation as this author had on the European situation. I like to think that it is usually conservatives that throw around broad generalization about other cultures but I guess that is not always true, either there or here.

[Go2Peace]

41. I don't know about Roma, but there is definitely a movement amongst Muslim communities

where they have been supporting people to move to a variety of European countries where they squat and attempt to take over land. While they have been persecuted they have also persecuted others, stolen their land, built on property that is not their's, and attempted to take over regions.

I believe this comes mostly from the Wahabists and it is a missionary style of extremist Islam. These certain extreme Islamic groups squat, then when they have sufficient numbers they start protesting and demanding the land be "returned to their ancestors", even to the point of violence in some cases. Trouble is Europe is quite different than the US, because of the history many groups can stake claim to many territories, because countries have changed hands over and over through history. Sure, if you go back to the time of the Ottoman Empire you can find many lands that were former Islamic homelands, but if you go further back you find another culture or society was displaced by them. So who really has a rightful claim?

Just saying. History is messy. And this is part of our current history and is contributing to serious issues and tensions in Europe, just as those who persecute and harbor racism and ethnic hatred.

[Romulox]

14. The defining characteristic of American society is said to be "competition".

We seem to want cut throat capitalist competition when it benefits us, but then claim to be one large society when we want something.

Is it any wonder that the more egalitarian, more socially cohesive European states have better cooperation?

[madfloridian]

17. Since Obama's election our "mean streak" has been on display.

The people who wanted to have a permanent majority lost it, and they are furious. The fact they lost it to a black man just takes them over the top. Many of the Democrats we elected are not acting with strength and courage.

You are criticizing the world for what the Independent columnist wrote. It comes across as petty.

The Independent article I posted did not claim they were superior in every way, in fact that was not the purpose at all.

They are shocked at what they are seeing coming from our country.

So am I.

Denial of it and blaming them for what they are seeing on their media is not really fair.

[McCamy Taylor]

36. You should read some of the stuff written by the Independent writer to get a better feel for where

she is coming from. Articles like one in which she pushes for the exclusion of legal immigrants from the British National Health on the grounds that noncitizens are not loyal. In the same one, she decries money and time spent rescuing a British resident noncitizen from torture at Gitmo...because he was not a citizen. Then, there is her piece about how Oxfam should keep its mouth shut about the morality of the Israeli invasion of Gaza. She has several pieces supporting the rape of Gaza. She is not exactly a Union Jack waving skinhead, but she flirts with the same ideas.

[SidneyCarton]

25. All nations have dark sides, and Europe's are as dismal as ours.

If anything Americans, as a nation are immature, while Europeans are in denial. Europeans would have the world believe that since 1945, they have learned their lesson, and now all is tolerance and equality (at least in the west)

Americans on the otherhand, are in a prolongued adolescence, where we don't want to admit that anything was ever wrong with us, that anything might be wrong with us now, or that what we are currently doing will cause us to end up in a state we would rather not end up in.

Different motivations, different cultures, same outcome: inability to face up to unpleasant realities.

[Go2Peace]

43. I would argue that as a society we indeed have had our mental health compromised by constant

propaganda and our extreme competitiveness.

It is foolish not to talk about what is happening to our mental health. We are approaching a statistically significant one out of three in this country fighting a mental illness at any given time. It is well documented that we are becoming more and more anti-social and withdrawn. The average person in America has one friend close enough to confide in, and 30% of our population feel they have no single person they can talk about their personal issues with.

Just like we need to discuss the political issues that are tearing down this country, we also need to recognize the social issues as well, and deal with them. It would be foolish of us not to. I would say it is progressive to be honest and admit that we do have a lot of issues with violence and we do indeed have a "mean streak", or better put an antisocial disorder, rampant in our society.

How will we fix it? Ignore it like it's not there?

[Demeter]

28. It's Spin Running Over the Truth

three or four times, to be sure it's totally obliterated.

[Geek_Girl]

31. Thank you for the reminder that Europe is not a Utopia

nt

[EFerrari]

32. I must have missed all those threads claiming that Europe was a utopia.

[G_j]

42. I sense that the unhappiness is about the Guardian article criticizing

the US populace as having a "mean streak".

I'll attest to that and I've lived here my whole life. :think:

just watch our freakin' teevee and movies for heaven's sake!

[Echo In Light]

46. Never underestimate the power of denial

[burning rain]

44. Ah, the "so's yer mama" argument.

Doesn't hold water. Our social and workers' protections across the board are piss-poor compared to Western and Northern Europe.