Was this whole thing a poker play by the WH or did they really get caught unprepared?

[xultar]

I'm trying to figure out if the WH had this whole HCR thing planned from the beginning,
or did they really get caught with their pants down?

[Ron Green]

1. If the strategy of the campaign points to the governing, then it was planned.

[hlthe2b]

2. I'd certainly like to think it was planned, but in truth...

I have no fucking clue....:shrug:

[kenny blankenship]

7. Here's a clue: look at how much support Obama has lost on this issue

over the course of utterly pointless "negotiations" with the Republicans and their moles in our Party. At this point polls say Republicans are more trusted on the issue than Obama.

Nobody does this kind of damage to themselves intentionally as part of a "strategery".

But there is still time for the WH to turn this around.

[xultar]

12. See, that is what I was thinking. I just figured it out. Grassley effed it up for the GOP game.

WH figured it out last week and is trying to turn it around.

Grassley straight out LIED and got caught.

[dmallind]

15. ....and look how that will come back manifold with success.

It's not support among the embittered netroot classes that will win him re-election. Watch the numbers if this thing gets done. Lose a few thousand hyper-partisans who have no other viable option, or gain a few million committed voters who thank you for getting them health insurance. Which would you care about?

[eleny]

22. You presume that those hyper-partisans have health care

If they're also in that group that doesn't have it and they get some crummy option like co-ops that will take years to get going, your position could easily fall apart. Co-ops are the weak sisters of the health insurance picture and that fact will be made quite clear. You can bet your bippy that the GOP will be happy to be the messenger of that news flash.

[kenny blankenship]

32. The poll wasn't a poll of your favorite whipping boy

--those awful, dreadful "netroots" people.

Reading comprehension! It helps us avoid many stupid errors in life. I commend it to you.

The poll was a GENERAL opinion survey of voters. Obama has lost support with the general voting public on HCR to the point that the idiots trust the Republicans more than Obama and the Dems. REPUBLICANS. You know Republicans? They look like this in the public imagination:
Or they did 8 short months ago at the end of the Bush Administration. This is a catastrophic development, and not just for this one legislative battle.

If Obama's advisers actually told him to pursue a course in negotiation (not having a plan of his own, letting the Republicans DEFINE him and the plan with smears and outright lies) knowing ahead of time that it would have this drastic weakening effect on his bargaining power, leaving him at his weakest just at the most critical moment of the horsetrading, THEN THEY ARE NOT AS SMART AS REPORTED, to put it mildly. Since they are not dumb people, they have arrived at this battered state by accidentally stepping into the punches of their adversary. Just because you didn't manage to avoid your opponent's uppercut doesn't mean you're stupid enough to hit yourself in the face. But that is what some people want us to believe about the Obama Team. They meant to get their face all bloody! They cut their own eye! To get sympathy votes from the judges! It coulda worked I tells ya!

If you think they did this scale of damage to themselves INTENTIONALLY --again this is public image damage with the electorate at large--well, then you are just sniffing glue, my embittered internet bulletin board posting friend.

[eleny]

3. Setting things straight

I feel this way right this minute because of this thread here at DU http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8598779

[xultar]

6. But if it was a poker play, then couldn't you understand why they'd be caught off guard

by us getting all hot and bothered?
If the WH may had this planned they may have assumed that we'd buy whatever came out of their cakeholes....and not get upset.

So, I don't know I'm still trying to figure it out.

[el_bryanto]

8. I think they believe that we haven't got any where else to go

Yeah we are pissed today; but we will most likely vote Democratic in 2010 and vote for Obama in 2012. I'm talking about us as a collective not as individuals.

Bryant

[eleny]

11. The thing is, they could lose the independents

I don't see how co-ops wold appeal to them since by the election time it will be obvious what weak sister they are.

[xultar]

17. That is why I don't think it was planned or they think they had more support than they did

meaning...people were gonna stick by them regardless but they didn't.

Independent support for Obama dropped big time. That is why I don't think it was planned.
Even if it was a power play the Independents may feel hoodwinked which would be worse.

[eleny]

19. Sounds like you're coming to some conclusions for yourself

I hate how this is all shaking out. I feel like I'm being spoken to by two sides of the White House mouth. I don't feel that I've been lied to. Not yet, at least. But something got messed up and they need to fix it fast.

So I urge them to do the right thing for the American people and not be afraid to have at it. I don't expect Obama to act like LBJ when he got Medicare accomplished. But I hope he ponders LBJ's resolve and how the result was the right thing in the end. Let that history be his guide.

[xultar]

27. Exactly. I'm just beginning to see how Grassley fucked himself and the GOP

last week cuz he had Obama believing him and then showed his cards.

now you see that grassley story in LBN? Looks like Grassley is trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

[eleny]

30. Yup, Grassley jumped the shark and it's downhill for his credibility

Not that he had much but whatever it was it's dead and buried now.

[eleny]

16. It feels like a game of 4th dimensional chess and that's just plain ridiculous

This is not all that complicated. As soon as Obama characterized public option as a "sliver" they had to know that all hell would break loose. Since they think they have us in the bag for votes, they thought they could get away with it. They didn't. So now they're walking it back.

Since Rahm is COS, and he's an old DLC guy with a brother who is pro co-op, I bet Rahm is hopping mad and would still like to corral us into what he wants. But we aren't putting up with that shit and they must walk it back or risk many of us sitting out 2010.

They took a risk and lost big these past few days. I wrote and called all my reps plus the WH several times. They were swamped.

[yodoobo]

4. Obama knows what he is doing

And is doing a damn fine job of it.

[eleny]

20. That sounds like an assertion made from a postion of faith

This whole thing is feeling too gauzy to me and I don't do gauze.

[blondeatlast]

5. The admin. knew from the campaign that the RRR would get hysterical.

led by the frothing poodles in the RW media.

They knew that the RRRs would wildly overplay their hand, it was simply a matter of time.

[xultar]

10. I'm beginning to think that Grassley screwed it up. He was stringing the WH from the get but

got caught with his crazy ass statements last week. When he mentioned about Grandma getting her plug pulled he went a little to far and busted the GOP game on stringing us along.

I think I just figured it out.

[frazzled]

9. It seems to me they are keeping their cards very close to their chests

I don't think the constant shifting and then retreating and then being ambiguous is at all loss of message control or being caught off guard or any of those things.

I think they want to keep all the opponents (be they Republicans or conservative Democrats) off-guard and unable to form solid counter-arguments or counter-strategies. Thus we have the "private option isn't essential" vs. "still support private option"; the "Democrats will do it alone" vs. "We still seek bipartisanship"; etc.

Remember, these guys will oppose anything and find an argument—truth be damned or all logic to the winds—that will be pumped through the Mighty Wurlitzer. But you can't catch a moving target. Same with legislative strategy—you can't plan a strategy if the other side won't reveal what theirs is.

I believe the WH won't zero in until just before there is a bill to be voted on.

[me b zola]

13. I voted for the second option

I really think that President Obama hasn't received the best council. Here is to hoping that he kicks the ass of those whom are not serving him well.

[xultar]

18. But someone had to have told him that the GOP wasn't going to play.

Rahm knows those fuckers.

Did Rahm convince Obama that the GOP would play because he'd won by such a landslide?

Personally I think Obama was told and decided to go the bi-partisan route because he really believed what he said during his election night speech.

[me b zola]

21. His instinct is to unite, that is where his strength lies

He knows that he is seen as "other", so he knows that his strength is to unite and remind people that he is one of us. He must constantly reassure whites that he is not someone scary, that is why he bends over back wards in attempts at bipartisanship. But he is not a stupid man, he knows how republicans operate. The problem is with the "Dems". He may have been told that the Dems would come on board, or at the very least wouldn't be obstacles. IMO, this is where he was not counseled well.

[xultar]

25. Agreed.

[Mystayya]

14. I have no idea

All I know is we need to keep the pressure on Congress and the WH so they don't put out a bill so watered down that it does more harm then good.

[Wednesdays]

23. "In politics, nothing happens by accident." -- FDR

[zonkers]

24. I like puppies.

[moondust]

26. "Politics is the art of the possible."

And one cannot know what is possible until some cards have been played.

[WI_DEM]

28. who cares?

[freddie mertz]

29. Second option. They have no idea what they are doing.

IMO, this is the most charitable view.

[moondust]

31. That is not the least bit believable.

The Obama admin has the benefits of hindsight into the Clinton admin's health care experience, the counsel of both Clintons if solicited, some of the same people involved this time as were then, etc. It adds up to a cumulative decades of experience and knowledge of the specific issues involved in getting something of this magnitude passed as well as what did not work then. To call them ignorant is just plain ignorant.

[freddie mertz]

34. I don't think they are ignorant.

I think they are behaving like a house divided.

[moondust]

35. Agree to some extent.

As long as it continues to evolve without any firm proposals carved into stone, there will likely continue to be some inconsistencies in the message.

[freddie mertz]

37. Frankly, I do not trust them anymore.

Those of us who support any semblance of meaningful reform should wake up and realize that the admin is prepared to sell that out.

We should concentrate our efforts on advocacy and applying pressure.

"Believing" is just not going to cut it in this case.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[damntexdem]

36. They got caught with pants down, and I HOPE they are setting it straight.

If they keep holding out for 'bipartisanship' and deals with the devil, then we are doomed.