Does anyone else here think our military is a socialist run structure

[lunatica]

If the definition of Socialism is that the government pays for everything with the revenues generated by the taxes that the citizens pay, then our entire military organization is the biggest Socialist program of all. There is nothing in any of the military branches that is generated through private means. From the building of the weapons like the drones, tanks, and hand held firepower, to the multi-million dollar fighter jets, to the floating cities of the aircraft carriers it's all paid on our dime.

Our 700 plus bases all over the world, as well as the monstrosity in Iraq are on our dime. You and I pay for it. We now pay Halliburton to 'service' the military whereas we used to pay the military to do it for themselves. We also pay Blackwater to guard our State Department members when they travel outside the US. It all on our dime.

All our military personnel, up to the highest ranking officers get paid with our money. They get housed with our money. Their very uniforms are paid with our taxes. And when the grunts in the trenches are forced to pay for thing they get, like meals while they're convalescing in hospitals after getting shot up in the wars, that's them giving it back to the government who gave it to them in the first place out of our pockets. The government shouldn't be for profit if they're using our money to fund things.

If Socialism is the topic of the day, let's really talk about it. The next time some puffed up disrupter retired vet chooses to strap a side arm high up on his thigh to enhance his crotch or screams about how bad Socialism is maybe they should be reminded they've been in the biggest Socialist style run organization in history and in the world. It isn't just the medical care they get that's socialist.

[havocmom]

1. Yep

and ask those whining about socialism just how they got to their protest. Unless they sprouted wings and flew, they must have used them damned socialist roads ;)

[BobRossi]

2. It was when I was in.

Right down to what color clothes to wear.

[Mixopterus]

3. Perhaps

But more through necessity than choice, really. Anything that is absolutely critical to the welfare of the nation is best dealt with in the hands of the people, acting through the government.

I can guarantee that a decentralized, privatized military would be absolutely steamrolled by a national army, for instance.

[lunatica]

12. Maybe in traditional warfare, but that isn't the kind we have now

The reason the people of Afghanistan were able to defeat the considerably able USSR troops and superior firepower was because they were determined. They were also given anti-aircraft weapons by us in our attempt to visit a Vietnam style defeat to our enemy which worked.

[Junkdrawer]

4. Not to quibble, but the most accepted definition of Socialism is....

"government ownership of the means of production."

What does the military produce? :shrug:

[Zywiec]

7. +1 n/t

[KittyWampus]

10. Security. What does a teacher produce? A fireman?

[Junkdrawer]

14. Theft....

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Zywiec]

5. Please provide a link to your definition

"If the definition of Socialism is that the government pays for everything with the revenues generated by the taxes that the citizens pay"

Not sure that's exactly accurate, and curious where you got this definition.

[lunatica]

18. It's my definition

It's a distilled definition I've come up with using my understanding of the concept of the differences in governments. I premised my argument with my understanding of what Socialism means. If you want to force me to come up with someone elses definition that's fine, but I won't for the sake of this argument.

Our government studiously avoids using the term Socialism but that doesn't mean it doesn't practice it in the real world. The very idea that the citizens are taxed in order for the government to function is a Socialist idea, but no one talks about that. I'm choosing, for the sake of my argument and to make a point to see Socialism where I believe it is being practiced. Many will agree that the services we get are pretty socialist. How many times have you heard, in movies for example, someone yelling at a cop that he pays the cop's salary?

If the conveniences and services we enjoy are paid with our taxes then why isn't that a socialist system in your eyes? I've always considered that paying taxes to get services (including the military for national security) was the fair thing to do. The difference now is that I think those taxes could also be used to take care of the most needy and the least of us. That is, if we really want to be fair.

[Zywiec]

24. "If you want to force me to come up with someone elses definition"

How about everyone else's definition?

:crazy:

[lunatica]

27. Do you think for yourself?

To be better mannered than you are, I would say you do, and I may disagree with you, which is OK. If you disagree then debate or refute what I say. But I think that demanding that I come up with someone else's definitions when I'm stating my clearly that it's my definition and also stating that they are my thoughts is rather puerile. Especially when the sum of your contribution is exactly zero otherwise.

How about you define it yourself and stop pretending your gotcha tactics aren't obvious.

[Heidi]

6. I have to wonder how many of the gun-totin', town hall disruptors are really veterans.

I'd bet they're more like chickenhawks Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Dick Cheney.

Most of the veterans I know demonstrate a good deal more respect for the president, even if they didn't vote for him, than the nuts you're talking about.

[lewismo]

8. socialist military

Very true, whats the current leading opinion on socialism at the moment? It would be quite a contradiction if they were to oppose the idea. But in a way I accept paying for the military..just like we do for the fire service (not all), public libraries, postal system, and police force (not all).

[lunatica]

13. I find nothing wrong with Socialism

[Blue_Tires]

9. not only that, but the military contracting industry are the single BIGGEST

welfare queens around...on their knees, hat in hand, begging for a handout from big gummitt...

[BolivarianHero]

11. No I don't...

According to popular definitions of socialism within the United States, the military could be painted as a socialist institutions, but there is much more to socialism than being the prime beneficiary of a welfare state apparatus. The military industrial complex is moreso a phoenomenon of crony capitalism or Japanese-style welfare capitalism.

[lunatica]

15. Can you expound further?

I'm not sure that crony capitalism trumps socialism as I've defined it. The fact that tax revenues have been diverted to certain preferential industries through cronyism isn't defined as a form of government is it? Or is it?

And can you explain what Japanese-style welfare capitalism mean?

[Th1onein]

16. Of course it is. I'm surprised you would ask such a question.

It is a socialist entity. Always has been. So is the post office. So is the highway system. So are quite a few of our major research universities.

[lunatica]

20. That's the point I'm tryng to make

[Th1onein]

38. Oh. Duh. I'm so dense sometimes.

Sorry about that.

[slackmaster]

17. Our military people pay for their uniforms with their own money

The money they earned by serving our country.

From the building of the weapons like the drones, tanks, and hand held firepower, to the multi-million dollar fighter jets, to the floating cities of the aircraft carriers it's all paid on our dime.

That's just the government relying on tax revenue taken from the capitalistic economy to fulfill its Constitutional obligation to provide for the common defense. It doesn't come anywhere near qualifying as socialism.

K&U

:kick:

[lunatica]

19. And where do the military get their money?

From tax revenues.

What I'm trying to say is that we have much more Socialism in our government practices than we think. I find it OK. I also think that if we could take some of that Capitalism and regulate it again the country itself, as a whole would be better off. The economy would be healthier.

We can only be as strong as our weakest link, and poverty and joblessness is our weakest link right now, made possible by the rampant free for all the Capitalist Corporations have enjoyed.

[slackmaster]

30. Yes, but they have to do actual work before the money and benefits are distributed to them

Disabled veterans who get benefits had to do actual work to earn their entitlements too. Beeing in need of money or food or housing or other assistance is not sufficient.

That's not Socialism as I know it.

[lunatica]

31. If we admit to doing Socialist things it helps to understand the concept of Socialism

In order to understand that Socialism has some qualities we as American can accept it helps to define it in terms that are understandable because it's part of our daily lives. I didn't say we are a Socialist country. I said we function in Socialist ways in many aspects of our lives. Aspects that we like and agree with. A truly Socialist country wouldn't throw military families under the bus.

As for who deserves the benefits maybe everyone should be entitled. Sure the soldier do actual work and I think they deserve their benefits, but why should a handicapped person or a child or someone who has grown old while working all their lives not get the same benefits?

I believe in Socialism. Capitalist Socialism where people can become rich if they like, but with a bottom line where everyone is given certain privileges. Housing, food and medical benefits. The basics. Otherwise knock yourself out becoming a millionaire. The country benefits all the more.

[reformedrethug]

34. I am one of those Disabled Vets

In fact I am in the process of having my disability reviewed and HOPEFULLY will get an increase in my pension as my condition has worsened quite a bit since my last review.

[lunatica]

37. I hope you get an increase in your pension

As far as I'm concerned you earned it. If we admitted to our socialism we could be truly Socialist and do the right thing. Good luck.

[slampoet]

21. The Military has ALWAYS been a job program for young conserative and mostly rural republicans,

balanced with a big giveaway for old fat cat arms makers.

[PVnRT]

22. No

A socialist organization would not be sending workers of one country to fight the workers of another in order to benefit the wealthy class that exploits them.

[lunatica]

26. the military doesn't make the decision to send it's soldiers to war

The decisions are made by the government. Supposedly by Congress, but more often than not by the President and if it's expedient, without a declaration of war.

[rd_kent]

23. Why do miltary members have to pay taxes on their salary?

If their paychecks are paid from our taxes, why do they have to pay taxes on that money? They are paying their own salary.

[lunatica]

25. Because the IRS says that all revenue is considered income and therefore taxed

If money is coming in to your household, it doesn't matter where it comes from it's considered income and therefore taxable, unless they say differently. Think about it. People who worked their entire lives and paid Social Security out of their salary have to pay taxes when they get that Social Security back.

[rd_kent]

28. I know, I was putting that question to the OP.

[lunatica]

29. I am the OP

Were you trying to say you disagree with my premise? If you were I don't understand your point. Perhaps you would clarify your ideas?

[reformedrethug]

32. Not to nitpick but there is one thing wrong in your OP

When I was in the Marine Corps I had to pay for my uniforms. Even what they called your "initial issue" came out of my paycheck at the end of bootcamp. If I remember correctly, the ONLY piece of uniform that I did not have to pay for was my flight line steel toed boots, other than that I paid for every stitch of uniform I had.

[lunatica]

36. I'm truly sorry you had to pay for your uniform

Truly. Because I had already paid for it with my taxes. And I had already paid your salary too. So it looks like your uniform was paid for twice with the same money.

Were we living in a country that admitted being a Socialist Democracy you wouldn't have to pay for your already paid for uniform.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[mitchum]

35. It is not socialist, but instead a parasitic structure