Health care discussion with new co-worker

[Mythsaje]

So, this guy started on Monday. My job was to train him. I've trained probably close to a hundred people over the last year and a half, so it's nothing new. Sometime fairly early in the evening I mentioned being a writer--not only of fantasy, but of political stuff. As some people know, I am very much an "out" liberal at work, un-apologetically so. I don't push people into believing what I believe, but I will take the time to correct misapprehensions.

So he asked me what I thought of the health care plan. "Obama's health care plan," as he put it. That registered to me as a low level warning buzz for some reason. "I said... well, I don't think it goes far enough."

He then began to "explain" how all the countries that have nationalized health insurance 1. Have terribly wait times and 2. Have to pay huge percentages of their income to pay for it. He cited some guy in Sweden, apparently, who has to pay 70% of his income.

I'm not really afraid of debate. But these two statements told me right off that NOTHING I said was going to have an impact. Someone with far less concern for the truth had already gotten to him and fucked him up but good.

Doesn't mean I won't revisit the subject at a later time, but I do know I'll approach it carefully. I mean, I can get our proud young Republican to see that single-payer is in line with fiscal conservatism, maybe I can reach this guy too.

On the other hand, maybe I can train him to help sell cheap Chinese crap, but that doesn't mean I can teach him to grasp the fundamental problems with allowing a bloated parasite to make our health care decisions for us.

[Beartracks]

1. "single-payer is in line with fiscal conservatism"

True that.

And having Medicare pay for counseling with her physician about end-of-life concerns actually SAVES GRANDMA MONEY!

"Death panels" my ass.

Single-payer FTW (for the win).

[KakistocracyHater]

2. that's the trouble, they are dogmatically against single payer

& are trying to convince everyone that it won't work-the SAME people who have been proven WRONG on EVERYTHING.

[joecool65]

3. Just feed him facts

In Sweden, people do pay a high percentage of their income in taxes. But, they receive many government services from their taxes like health care. For example, Swedes rarely pay over $30 for ANY medical expense. Just imagine never having to worry about paying over $30 for any medical expense. If there are any Swedes on here, let me know if I am wrong. I got this information from an article about different nation's health care systems a few months ago. But, I just remember some Swedes in the article stating they have NEVER paid over $30 for any medical expense.
Heck, I have great insurance and it costs me $35 for an emergency room visit.

[zbdent]

8. facts don't have any effect on people who are religiously attached

to their fiction ...

[w0nderer]

9. swede now in us reporting in

let's see (information about 6 years out of date)
surgery with 1 day in hospital ...less than $30

longest waiting (new years eve with 5 cardiacs coming into ER as well) (i had a small face wound needing 4 stiches) 2 hours, cost less than $30

mom's 6 months in hospital to get recover and heal and find originating reason for a systematic infection (basically any test designed by medical society was run, and she was an 'in hospital' patient during 6 months)..... $30 (yes they solved it)

--side issue--
for me
it's not even for me the $30 that's the good thing
it's the knowing...
when one goes to a doctor with health insurance in the US
the doctor gets "pre approval" for what ever needs to get done
that does NOT mean it's covered, it means 'insurance will not contest it right now but might later'
in other words, you ...DON'T know how much it'll cost in the end

in Sweden once you've paid your $30..or what ever, that's pretty much it...yer set
you don't have to start investigating how much the house and car will sell for just in case the insurance company argues the cost

--end side issue--

70% of income isn't 'health care' 70% is total TAX of that person
local, regional and so on
and is in way upper income bracket

not to mention some of that probably makes its way back
on 'need' (ie income tested and tested on cost of living (against swe minimum standard of living) and based on area)
support for child
support for childcare
support for rent/housing
paid sickdays
unemployment
reeducation in case one looses job and needs re-education
pension (like 401 sorta)
healthcare
and so on


most i ever paid was 39% tax
and at that i had same money 'out'
that i do in the US after medicare and SS
NOT including healtinsurance
if i was to add that in i'd have a 0 or negative paycheck

pay in sweden is proportional to tax largely ((i made 12/h as apprentice) here 10 years later i make 9.50/h as 'master')
and tends to follow 'purchase power' indexes

for 'richer' people, it is indeed higher

food has at least 25% sales tax but actually food prices are about the same as in the US
pound of peas and gallon of milk is what i price checked on and they were the same

dunno if this clarifies anything
w0nderer //in US since 2003 (not here for the 'marvelous' healthcare)

[Bandit]

10. I like how Progressive Sweden is except a 25% Sales Tax on FOOD

That blows my mind. Nothing could be more Regressive, at least from an American's point of view. We value money much more here I believe and need it for more things. Education, Child Care, Housing, etc... In Sweden the Government aids in most of those I believe.

[w0nderer]

12. sales tax on most things actually

it's called 'moms' and is similar to VAT of the UK

it's not just on food it's actually on most merchandise
however do notice higher salaries in general, no need to pay health care SEPARATE and notice that base groceries end up the same price in sweden WITH moms included as here without tax, also note that prices in stores normally INCLUDE the tax

if it says 100 kronor, that's what you pay, you don't pay 100 kronor plus sales tax

a swede comparing US to SWE taxes is likely to go..."wow you only pay 10-15%??? i WISH that was so in sweden"

if he's like me he's forgetting somethings i didn't realize till i got state side

fica+SS+medicare.. (all the normal withdrawals) for me at least total to 21% (21.0023) or some such
but only 'fica' is 'tax'

add 'health insurance' 'dental' 'vision' to that
oo way over 20% now
then add in
paid sick days
paid 3-4 week vacation
unemployment
...
....
.....
all of a sudden i'm sure that if an American(or legal permanent resident) wanted all the 'features and benefits' the total (tax plus medicare + health care +...) would total way high

the taxes do make the economical system more sluggish, sometimes that's a benefit, sometimes it's a non beneficial thing

[Kansas Wyatt]

11. 70% total tax for that person...

People in this country never add up ALL the taxes they pay, from Federal, S.S., Medicare, State, & Local taxes. And then there are all the indirect taxes people unknowingly pay.

If they ever did add up all taxes paid, they would realize that they are already paying enough in taxes to receive health care from the government, but they aren't getting it... It's going to the Military Industrial Complex and Corporate America.

[KakistocracyHater]

13. doesn't work, they can act like it's a personal "stand", they argue from

feelings, not facts, you can feed them all the facts in the world & it doesn't make any difference. This is the hardcore, w base, etc., etc.

[Quantess]

4. I don't understand people who start a new job and lack the self restraint to avoid certain topics.

How hard is it to avoid politics, religion, inappropriate jokes, etc. in your first week at a new job?

I'm willing to bet money he has never travelled outside North America, and he has never met a Swedish citizen.

[Mythsaje]

5. I did suggest he actually TALK to people from other countries

before making assumptions. I'm certain he's getting his info 2nd hand (at best), so...

[lib_wit_it]

14. RWers think any time or place is perfect for spewing their nonsensical opinions. eom

[democracy1st]

6. this was all the info you needed my friend,watch it and be forever changed

Rep. Anthony Weiner Discusses Public Option Health Care Reform on Morning Joe - PT 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmlDZXCrWRE


Rep. Anthony Weiner Discusses Public Option Health Care Reform on Morning Joe - PT 2


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIF_dWwxAHE

[and-justice-for-all]

7. 70% of ones income? LOL! that is bullshit...

Sweden's Health Care System
http://www.swedishhealthcare.se/swedenshealthcaresystem.html

How is financing handled?
Local/regional taxes:
Most of the public financing comes from county council taxes (proportional income tax). This accounts for just over 70% of the healthcare costs.

[lib_wit_it]

15. If things keep going like they are, Americans will be be paying 70% of our income on

health care. And does new boy have any idea of the other services Swedes get for their taxes.

So many Americans are shockingly ignorant regarding other countries, but that doesn't stop them thinking the rest of the world can't possibly have one single idea that's better than how it's done in the USA! USA! USA! USA....