Why you should NEVER put faith in politicians and why the American Ideal elects

[nadinbrzezinski]

representatives, not leaders.

The current debacle with health care is once again proving that it is not dems vs pugs, but us vs them. The founding fathers gave you the tools. They said the government was of the people, by the people and for the people. Granted, who was the people was a tad more limited (property owners who were white) than it is today.

Alas they did not elect leaders. They abhorred kings, and they had little "faith" in their leaders. it was more of a trust but verify society. So take their cue...

We are about to get reamed by the usual suspects, if all these reports are correct. Not that I am shocked or surprised. If they fold, they will prove that they cannot be trusted. They know thought that come election time they will promise all will be fine and we will happily vote for them.

Well folks, it is time... you decide what kind of a country you want. Do you want a nation run by kings? Then do indeed have faith in your leaders... we should get rid of elections anyway, they are a waste.

Or do you want a society were we trust but verify our reps? If this is the case, it will take more than throwing a tanter and saying how angry we are and next election voting for them. It will take the kind of social action we have not seen in this country for generations.

My question is... do you have the intestinal fortitude to fight for what you want regardless of the letter behind somebody's name? If you do, here are some things that need to change:

Corporate person-hood needs to go the way of the dodo... yes that case before the USSC might make it de-facto in ways that make the current status quo look mild.

Yes, the government has to fear you, this means demonstrations, strikes, the kind of things nobody has done in this country except in history books. That little giant needs to wake up.

I could go on.

But until the American people decide they've truly had enough... mark my words, those who run the show will continue to manipulate and use you, till the cows come home.

Me... usually when we have rumors of democrats folding, it means they are about to. This is the lesson of the last 20 years. Yeah I will call... and my call will go into the bin of disgruntled voters that we know will vote for us anyway. I mean who else are they gonna vote for next time around?

Health Reform, RIP... it was a nice campaign promise... and this take at the apple will be the last one in at least a generation. That is unless the system collapses so spectacularly that it has no other choice but to be done... which may very well happen in the next five years.

[cali]

1. my reps in congress and in the statehouse here have earned my faith in them

Bernie, Pat and Peter have all earned the trust I place in them. No, it's no blind faith, but a regard built on their words and records. furthermore, a rep or senator can indeed be a leader.

[Zix]

2. This could get me banned, but, um, I never understood the Obama hype.

I'm sure this'll get me toasted a little at least, but I was more than a somewhat aghast at Obama long before he was elected. He reminds me horribly of Tony Blair.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Well you have the right attitude, trust but verify

and so far I have not been able to verify...

:-)

Welcome to DU, and yes I expect some of the usual suspects to get a little annoying.

Of course to me this attitude is not limited to the President, but to every level of government.

The other dictum comes to mind... power corrupts...

[vadawg]

5. for me hes always reminded me more of david steele, i cant quite put my finger on it

i personally dont like any pols that much anyway... but i got a real dislike for georgeous george galloway

[Zix]

8. Goerge is awful, isn't he? I'm not sure if your views and mine will be congruent but

...I admire him tremendously (I think he's got an iron belly of guts) but I also want to grab him by his beard whenever he opens his mouth and say: "SHUT. UP."

[vadawg]

9. lol, i just dont like the guy, hes always been about himself, now jenkins was a gentleman but george

is and always was a buffoon.

[quaker bill]

10. Go figure,Tony Blair is also fairly articulate

I was never taken with the hype, but the substance behind it was and still is more than enough to justify my vote and regular contributions. So far, no one has gotten healthcare done right, Bush did not even have the guts to try, the jury is still out on this attempt. However, this can be said, Obama has the sensitivity to the problem and the guts to try to fix it.

[Zix]

17. Blair did do SOME good things, for sure.

But he was no lefty. The left in the UK has basically given up on elected officials and now tries to work in other ways.

I hope Obama does do something to fix healthcare. In the past the UK has followed the US. I've a nasty feeling that if things don't go well in the States the NHS might go down. The Tories have never wanted it, despite what David Cameron says, and the next election is theirs.

[quaker bill]

25. Only Barack's opponents

and a few taken with myths of the man on our side ever thought Barack Obama was a "lefty". I never felt Barack was as far left as I am and folks here don't find me to be all that far left of center. I did not vote for Barack because I thought highly of his "lefty" credentials as I find him only modestly left of center. I contributed to his campaign, worked for him, and voted for him in the primaries and the general because I felt that he was the only candidate that the Democrats had on offer who could win by 5 to 7 percent. I did not want the race to be close, because we have seen how close races work out.

I felt that several of the other Democratic candidate could possibly win, but I did not feel that any of the others had the capacity to put the race truly out of reach. In all honesty, simply putting the Whitehouse back in Democratic Party control was victory enough for me. We may not make as much progress as many here to include myself would like, but we have, at a minimum, stopped going backward. I find this to be sufficient, not all I desire, but sufficient.

[Zix]

27. It's a considerable improvement, doubtless.

Watching Bush was amazing. It was like watching a bucket of acetone being poured over the Mona Lisa.

[GreenArrow]

28. Strangely, he has also reminded me

quite a bit of Tony Blair as well, and I am no fan of Tony. Still, you have to consider the electable alternatives that were selected for us to choose from. Hillary, Edwards and Obama were the three front-runners more or less from the beginning, and Obama, to put it bluntly, was the best of a bad lot. Of the Republicans, it's not worth speaking at all.

[Horse with no Name]

4. One of my coworkers and I had a conversation about this last night

and our consensus was that as long as the overlords can keep us fighting amongst each other, then we won't have the energy to fight them.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. Exactly

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Yep and to quote Marx on that, or at least paraphrase

the proletariat must develop class consciousness, and until it does the elites win.

Now Karl got a lot of things wrong, but on that one... he was right.

of course lumpen proletariat might not be a term that many muricans will want to use, and actually does not apply any more, but the cute trick where everybody is middle class, even when they are really not is partly to keep that consciousness from developing.

[vadawg]

12. question is would you rather live in this society or one envisioned by marxists

myself ill take this with all its faults rather than the being led by the crazies who spout marx and would quickly start putting us in mass graves for our own good of course...

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Of course that is something that was done by the russians who were

in spite of all claims to the contrary, not classic socialist.

A closer example of the socialism envisioned by Marx and Engels, with all their problems, would be Norway and other northern countries.

It works THERE, they are very much smaller societies, and socialism has a limit on the size of the society it will work at. It also has some clear requirements to get from here to there... which alas were not met by the USSR in any way shape or form. I am sure you knew that. (Not really, most Americans do not know the difference)

This said, you think our society is Capitalist? not at all... not even close. If it were, all them monopolies would be gone. Read Adam Smith. Unlike some folks around these parts, I am not against readying these things... it is not infectious.

That said, what Marx about class was pretty damn accurate, especially for the 19th century... but it does apply today insofar as how a people is manipulated. See around you.

Now if you want to discuss Marxism, socialism, neo marxism, marxist-lenilism, and the many other flavors of it, fine. But to be honest a little dose of Nordic socialism, in the form of national health care and universal education INCLUDING college, would not be a bad idea for this society. And yes, that would be socialism, not Marxist-Leninist, and do point to the gulags in Norway please... you too can tell the difference?

[vadawg]

15. as someone who is an american by choice and from a socialist country

i think i understand how it works from the inside thank you very much.... also impretty sure theres enough crazy marxists in the US who would happily line the masses up for their own good, just read DU for a week and you will see them..

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. I am betting Eastern Europe, from your comments probably the former USSR

not Norway or Sweden.

Or for that matter Israel.

Again, do point to me the Gulags and the mass graves.

Oh and I am American by choice too, but I admit the very serious problems this country has. And yes, a little socialism in the form of a national health care system would go a long way in this country, since our fascism, by definition it increasingly is... is not sustainable.

Oh and since you asked during the Bush years I did look at emigrating from the US... I may just as well start looking again. The US is on a road that is not sustainable.

[vadawg]

20. lol actually mainly the socialist state of scotland, some ireland

wales, england, some in poland and the croatia region as well, so ive seen crazy socialism and not so crazy socialism, but the crazies are on both sides of the aisle, and i dont want to have tolive with wither if i can help it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Scotland is not socialist, and Ireland has elements but not close to a classic

definition either

England is not socialist, beyond the NHS, The experiment of the 1950s didn't go too well, see that thing about maximum population size.

and Poland was Marxist Leninist.

And right now you are living with a bunch of right wing zealots who lost power but keep running the country towards the classic defintion of fascism as given by Benito Mussolini

So I guess for you public option would be too much socialism, I get it.

I think we are done... I mean you live in a country that is truly to the right of Atila the Hun but cannot see the irony?

Have a good life, pursuing that... "centrist ideal that keeps going to the right."

[vadawg]

23. lol okay i guess you can tell the population of glasgow that they are not socialists

im sure they will totally disagree with you. good luck with your marxism and i dont really mean that as im sure like all marxists the gypsies will be against the wall with the rest of the undesirables...

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. YOu think I am one just becuase I can see

that he got some things right?

Are you that insane?

But he did... get some things right.

And you go on... you keep thinking those who read political science are automatically whatever they read at the moment.

Given that I can also quote from Adam Smith, I guess that makes me a Capitalist.

To paraphrase, Monopolies are dangerous to the variance of the market place and should be forbidden by the sate. (Yes he wrote that)

Phew... I am a capitalist since I can quote from Adam Smith too... and for the record I agree with Adam Smith too. He got that ONE right.

[dixiegrrrrl]

18. If the overlords were smart

they would not only legalize drugs, they would give them away.
Real hard to get a mad on after some good dope.
Hard to move after some real good dope.

or so I almost remember .:hippie:

[crazy_vanilla]

11. I just thought Obama and team were different

The joke is on me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. I didn't. I voted for Obama since he would be better than McCain

but that would be a matter of degree.

Perhaps it is a well developed sense of cynicism, but I just don't trust any of them.

Some are better than others, but trust, that ended a long time ago.

[crazy_vanilla]

19. your intuition was better than mine, it appears

In my 40s, I thought I had finally seen a politician who genuinely cared. What a letdown!

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I'm in my forties too

LOL

I guess it is my having grown in a coutry with a very healthy sense of political cynicism, and not the US.

[quaker bill]

26. One must learn

to trust politicians to be politicians. This does not require cynicism, just faith that reality is what it is. Considering politicians as one might MLK or Ghandi is a prescription for disappointment and entirely unnecessary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Sorry but i grew in a country where cynicism is present in both polticians and the

people

No I don't expect a Ghandhi, or an MLK... then again, neither was a politician in the traditional sense of the word either.

Now if you want to trust them. go for it. I will take the words from the founders, trust, if you must, but absolutely verify.

We do not elect leaders but reps.