Seems to me we are being infiltrated today:

[glowing]

I've read ops with low post counts and not well written. I've also read those with higher post counts... They may be within the industry or just on ever crap on Obama posts.

Currently, we have the system that is what it is now. Insurance, if you are lucky enough to have it through your employer, is costlier and costlier every year. 12,000 people lose their insurance everyday in this country. If you get sick or cap out, you can die or go bankrupt if you do become ill. Those with a minor toe bang are discriminated from joining into an insurance plan. Obviously, its time to reform the system. Even if it is just reforming the delivery system, pharmaceutical gouging, and price discrepancies from one hospital to the next, it would be helpful. I personally wish we could allow everyone to join medicare that wishes to opt into that delivery system. Paying on a % of income into the spot listed medicare that is currently deducted on my pay check. At least then I and millions of others would not be denied.. on the other hand, I've never had a major malfunction. The ins. ind. is making mad money off of my family. Had I taken the $450.00/ mo I currently pay to them, and only pd the Dr. office for the yearly exam and the tests, I'd be ahead... I pay for the off chance I have an emergency. Of course, it is a costly chance. BUT even under my desired idea of health care, I still recognize there has to be a reform of the deliver system, fraud, waste, sweet-heart deals, and pharma gouging. The monopoly must be busted.

From what I understand, the Public Option wouldn't be on-line until 2013 anyway. Some of these reform systems will take 10yrs to complete... such as updating records, co-ordinating testing, standardizing hospital fees, helping to educate more Dr's. and nurses, and expanding coverage to the rural areas (hard to get Dr's. to go into the country when they will have a hard time paying back those student loans).

Once these reforms are completed, efficiency within the system should help alleviate the spiraling costs of health care in general. I'm assuming that as we continue on in our awakened democracy, and hopefully elect better reps, that we could tweak the system as need be... Perhaps in 2 yrs add the option I like about signing up for medicare and paying more of a % based on my income... If you think about medicare, its a losing money because its paying for those who absorb most of the costs with end of life issues. I only pay a small fee currently, I do not mind paying more into medicare and NOT paying an insurance company to cover health care costs.

AND at the end of the day, nothing is final. There are several bills floating about. We have to get them out of committee in order to even think about tweaking or modifying the versions into one bill. I listened to the town hall yesterday. Pres. Obama is still a supporter of the Public Option. Last time I looked the Sec. of HHS served at the pleasure of the Pres. The entire White House team has been intensely careful to NOT set lines that the Republicans can fight against.

I think the more we hound our reps for single-payer with the "ok" to compromise on a strong Public Option, I think they will get it. Its up to us. We are up against much, but we got Pres. Obama last fall. If we want it, we fight for it. At least, lets work to get it out of committee... Calling for NO Reform is not going to help our deficits at all, and we only kick the can so to speak. That's not fair to our next generation... nor is it fair to all of us who deserve healthcare.

[Zix]

1. Not absolutely on topic (I hope you'll forgive my low post count)

...but I've never understood he perceived value of "infiltration" on political discussion boards anyway, all that ever happens is that a large number of rightly highly amused posters have a field day at the troll's expense. You'd think they'd eventually cotton on.

[sendero]

2. Lot's of people mistakenly believe...

... that anyone of importances gives two shits about anything on a message board.

Some blogs, yes, forums like this, less than zero.

[glowing]

6. Really, seems to me I see many headlines popping up on MSM from

sites like these. If they think we accept defeat, they will blather on all week about how dems have caved and we accept.

[panader0]

3. Welcome aboard!

[Zix]

12. How nice! thank you!

:)

[mdmc]

13. Welcome to DU my friend

peace and low stress

[Posteritatis]

7. It gets people all paranoid and backbitey among even the regulars

Just look at DU whenever a new Issue Of The Day pops up; anyone who disagrees with the plurality view is declared a paid operative of The Enemy or something, a few people drink that kool-aid, and after awhile half the site's on edge about any opinions that differ from their own. It shuts down peoples' willingness to listen to just about anything. Just look at the crap that any DUer with under a thousand posts has to put up with, no matter what they say. (You'll get some of that; try not to care too much about it, and e-kick me in the head if I do so based on post counts. ;P )

[Zix]

11. Wow! Okay, then.

Wouldn't get very far on the Internet without rule 1: "ignore all post-count related insults..." some boards are worse than others, I guess...

Thank you for your response.

[glowing]

17. Everyone starts at one at some point. It just seems that today the posts are going nuts over

Obama is failing us. He's done. We're doomed. Shoot if we don't do something about the issue, it continues to get worse. I suppose for some the devil we know is better than the possible devil we don't.

[Zix]

18. I find myself in the unenviable position of agreeing with both sides.

Obviously Obama has to be supported but also, he could be doing more. I think what probably rankles a lot of the disaffected left about Obama is the fresh memory of the boldness with which the Bush administration moved. They didn't care what anyone thought and they got a lot of what they wanted. It must be very frustrating to watch Mr Obama move so carefully and with so little *apparent* regard for the idealists on the left.

[Leopolds Ghost]

26. I don't see how it's idealistic leftism to not want to fine the have nots

Fine em into what? Do individuals have an obligation to the State to contract with private parties for a variety of what are envisioned as consumer goods, such as health care? That's an authoritarian position, not a leftist or a rightist position.

Note: I'm one of the "have nots" but saying that doesn't help my case because there is an inherent disdain on the blogosphere for underemployed "freeloaders". Nobody's said "get a real job, hippie!" to me just yet...

[glowing]

15. Many times its true. But how does the media spin this on Monday.

Democrats mad at Obama for droppin Public Option, Pukes going nuts as usual, and all the good reform stuff is thrown away into the garbage can. Along with the polls diving into negative territory over the healthcare debate. I feel we are over-reacting to many issues like we are still fighting a Bush admin. I wish our calmers selves would prevail. I wish we would make an organized thoughtful initiative to pressure congress to get things out of committee. If it dies there, its dead. People will continue to die for no good reason. I listened to Pres. Obama. Instead of listening to what I think is best. I listened to what he was explaining about the types of reform they were initiating. Those are things that need to happen to help prevent the enormous costs of healthcare that are spiraling out of control. He convinced me on that. I think he's honest in what he is saying and he is not lying about what he says is 80% agreed upon reforms that should help the costs.

[crazy_vanilla]

8. welcome

no, we are not all paranoid on this board

[Zix]

25. thank you!

[BzaDem]

4. It is not up to you at all.

If the Senators on the fence could actually get us over 60 votes, then yes, calling Congressmen will make a difference. But in this case, more than 40 Senators are dead-set against a public option (and in most cases so are their constituents). I don't see how you can make a difference in that regard.

[glowing]

10. Say we get the shaft on any public option... Do you agree that there needs to

be wide sweeping reforms on delivery system of healthcare.. that there is currently a lot of waste, fraud, and paper pushing? My Dr. office has 6 diff. billing specialists for each diff. ins. co. Aligning the idiot ins. cos. w/ medical coding would help dr. offices from having to charge more to staff paper pushers. They could actually hire more medical staff, could you imagine.

[BzaDem]

28. I want a public option.

But I know it is probably not going to happen.

So I will be in favor of any healthcare reform bill that makes the system on balance better than what it is today. I'm not sure what exact reforms you are proposing in terms of delivery, but my best guess is that what you are proposing there (as part of a bill) would command bipartisan support among both houses of Congress.

[crazy_vanilla]

5. our opinion may not match with yours, but we certainly have the right to express it

Blind following of one idea is never good for democracy, and we cannot close our eyes to things that go wrong.

I love the President and have supported him 100%, but I have the right to express my questions and disappointment today.

[glowing]

9. Did he say out of his mouth he's not going to push for a public option.

Currently, I see him trying to get a bill out of the Senate Finance Committee. After that it changes before heading back to the floor for a vote count.. Many good bills die in committees. Or do we need a lesson in school house rock again. October is when Obama wants the bill... before the next year and the campaign season in the House.

[Leopolds Ghost]

23. This is how the process works. This is a statement from admin spokesperson on Health Care.

I can only imagine it was directly approved by the White House after
private negotiations with Congress.

What they all agree on is that individuals like you and me will be fined
up to $1000 and have a personal responsibility to the STATE to prove they
can PURCHASE private insurance.

Folks apparently have no problem with this because it will apparently not
affect them. And a whole host of johnny come lately Dems, including Yuppies
in Massachusetts who voted for MITT ROMNEY, liked his health care plan because
they felt it would reduce premiums and make their state look good by reducing
the rolls of the uninsured: only "extreme cases" would choose to be fined
instead of being forced to purchase insurance at market rates.

Is there a SINGLE person on these blogs who is currently uninsured / cannot
afford health insurance, much less one who supports turning insurance from
a right into an individual obligation, with no further thought given to
that goal? Why are individuals morally obliged to serve the industry by
purchasing health care from private parties? What about those of us who
have a religious objection to these selective service-like programs, like
the Amish? Does the new generation support doing everything by selective
service, instead of voluntary?

Does ANYONE remember from civics that the
Constitution gives the gov't NO RIGHT to invade the privacy of citizens in
order to impose obligations of this sort -- requirements to deal with
private parties who have a mercantile arrangement with the state -- in return
for citizenship? Jefferson came this close to a constitutional amendment
banning the levy of national armies except in wartime, and people with no
memory of the politics of Roosevelt or Jefferson are dragging the Democratic
Party into the opposite: a mercantile corporate state.

Many folks have no comprehension because they can't remember a time before
Reagan or Clinton, and the ones that can are retiring soon and are afraid
their health premiums will go up because of "ungrateful, uninsured young people"
who are "freeloading" off of their honest insurance brokers and their sincere
for-profit hospital companies, as they have been told.

[glowing]

30. I think we should have a single-payer system.. but that still means we have to pay.

If we come up with a reform that makes it more affordable to obtain ins, either public option or private vendor, one should have it. If you don't a fine, to me, is perfectly acceptable. If that person has an accident, they will use the hospital and won't be able to pay for the treatment. The more within the pool, the cheaper. The idea of a public option competing would essentially allow us to move to a single-payer sollution. Corruption is the blockage as of now, otherwise, we would have had medicare for all years and years ago. Most people understand that somewhere along the line they are going to have to pay something for their healthcare. Drs are not free, the equipment is not free, and drugs are not free. The overhaul should decrease the overhead fees and help decrease fees between institutions.. Diff. hospitals charge diff. rates. Its the reason your ins. provider decides, unless in an emergency, which hospital you have any procedures in or what specialists you use. The negotiate the costs of procedures. I wish it was as simple as snapping fingers and just doing it, but its not. Those who are not poor now, often qualify for medicare. Children have had expaned coverage added this year.

[Horse with no Name]

14. And I think maybe that some are way too invested in their primary positions

to say that they might have been WRONG about what they shoved down everyone's throats and find it quite necessary to defend every horrible position he takes or every promise he breaks. I detested it when the the republican apologists did it for bush and I detest it when it happens for obama.
How dare you accuse those of us who are reporting the MSM news as being "in the industry". Some of us just aren't so fucking partisan that we can see when we are being sold out to the highest bidder.

[glowing]

20. I'm def. no partisan. I'm 10x's more socialist than Obama could ever think of being.

However, on this issue, it is tough. It affects so many and its a costly issue. I agree that reform of the system on a whole has to be addressed. Systemic reform will help with costs within private or public market. Personally, I'd love to live in Canada or an European country and know that its a right... but this is America. AND for too long we've been told we are the best, and we are not even close. Pres. Obama never said he was going to push for single-payer during the campaign.

[Shandris]

16. I read a thread about the AP article...

...talking about how the White House is 'ready to abandon the public option (sic)' and I was pretty disheartened at first. Several other posters noted that there is no final bill yet (obviously) and that there is still time to fight, and that calmed me down a little bit. Guess I'm a bit overreactionary, such a bad trait. But one thing that sticks out in my mind is that if the 'proposal' (for lack of a better term atm) goes as is, but simply without a public option, doesn't that mean that everyone will still be required to carry insurance? And, furthermore, only a private insurance? What about Medicare and/or Medicaid? Do those even qualify, or would someone literally privatize that also?

I worked for a company with a tertiary commitment in the insurance field before and I don't trust a private insurance company farther than I can physically bowl them...which is not at all. I can't even begin to imagine the sheer nightmare of enforcing required insurance through private carriers only. You think the High-Deductible Liability insurance is bad? Wait till you're forced to buy it...or worse.

President Obama...this is NOTNOTNOTNOTNOT the time to give up on public option (IMHO, it was never time to give up on Single Payer, not even for a moment). You're licensing our futures to companies whose sole existence and purpose FOR existence is to give us AS LITTLE HEALTHCARE AS POSSIBLE! (Fiduciary Responsibility)

Sorry for rambling somewhat. Sundays. =)

[glowing]

21. I completely agree with you on how we pay for it... However, without

reform within the system, we cannot afford even medicare.

[Leopolds Ghost]

19. We are being infiltrated by opponentsof the current horrible, corporate-written plan?

Were we infiltrated by opponents of the FISA bill, which the major campaigns and legislative supporters of the new Administration all endorsed?

* No public plan
* Public option (which will be discarded) not guaranteed (people with no private insurance will simply be fined)
* Individuals impose new citizenship requirement: purchase private insurance or be fined (violation of privacy rights over personal health care decisions in the Constitution)
* Administration officials "envision the day when proof of insurance" will be required in job interview (along with credit report, drivers license, etc. presumably)
* Employers require individuals to have insurance, not vice versa

And most important:

HEALTH INDUSTRY LOBBYISTS WROTE THE MATH BEHIND THIS BILL DIRECTLY THEMSELVES IN CONFERENCE WITH CENTRIST DEM THINK TANKS back in 2000. THE MATH WAS DESIGNED TO STRENGTHEN THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY BY REQUIRING ALL AMERICANS TO **PURCHASE** INSURANCE FROM HEALTH INDUSTRY.

ND, AL, etc. RW senators love the idea of private co-ops because they know it is irrelevant to the outcome, which is to force 95% of uninsured to "enter the existing pool" of private plans in order to increase the number of people putting in money to existing for-profit plans.

[glowing]

22. Ok, so throw it all out, abandon ship. Ready to find the man from the NH rally and help him out?

Because that is the only way you will change things really, really fast... However, a civil war will put more people in the path of destruction, rather than help save their lives with medical care.

[Leopolds Ghost]

24. Right now the only thing that is likely to change is that the number of uninsured

Will drop like a stone because it will be illegal to be uninsured. This will be taken as the only metric of success and everyone will repeat it, like people in Singapore are proud of their crime statistics. It worked for welfare. NOBODY is on the welfare rolls anymore, and that is taken as the only metric of success of the Clinton plan to end welfare (which is JUST NOW being implemented in DC by a "liberal" mayor with the support of the "liberal" yuppie policymakers who just moved here to be part of the new Administration. I can only take this to mean that the Administration supports doing to welfare and public housing what they do to health care: make it an individual responsibility (criminalize the have-nots) and have no public program of last-resort, much less a broad-based social net.

The very concept of a safety net is broken by fining individuals who have no health care: It's the sort of thing Reagan (and Reagan's successor, Romney) wanted.

[1955doubledie]

27. I don't think he means they're opponents of the status quo

But rather, opponents of reform, pretending to be opponents of the status quo.

False flag operations ain't just for CIA operatives, ya know. ;)

[Leopolds Ghost]

29. I think the entire FR movement is astroturfing at this point, a tar baby/strawman to get us riled up

While the real policy is made behind the scenes in an atmosphere of continual right wing pressure from the "street".