Director John Waters on Leslie Van Houten

[devilgrrl]

Now that Squeeky gets to be free, why not discuss another Manson Girl Leslie Van Houten.

Read this fascinating five part excerpt from the upcoming book Role Models by film director John Waters.

Leslie Van Houten: A Friendship, Part 1 of 5

I have a really good friend who was convicted of killing two innocent people when she was nineteen years old on a horrible night of 1969 cult madness. Her name is Leslie Van Houten and I think you would like her as much as I do. She was one of those notorious "Manson girls" who shaved their heads, carved X's in their foreheads and laughed, joked, and sang their way through the courthouse straight to death row without the slightest trace of remorse forty years ago. Leslie is hardly a "Manson girl" today. Sixty years old, she looks back from prison on her involvement in the La Bianca murders (the night after the Tate massacre) in utter horror, shame, and guilt and takes full responsibility for her part in the crimes. I think it's time to parole her.

Read Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-waters/leslie-van-houten-a-frien_b_246953.html


Leslie Van Houten: A Friendship, Part 2 of 5

By now I certainly knew that what Leslie had done was anything but "art". Her participation in the La Bianca murders was a very real atrocity that she could never make go away like a bad hairdo or a...

Read Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-waters/leslie-van-houten-a-frien_b_246996.html



Leslie Van Houten: A Friendship, Part 3 of 5

Attorney Paul Fitzgerald, after many years' involvement defending the Manson women at various trials, said to The Los Angeles Times, "If Leslie Van Houten had never existed, the La Biancas still would be dead." But Leslie...

Read Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-waters/leslie-van-houten-a-frien_b_247025.html



Leslie Van Houten: A Friendship, Part 4 of 5

Initially both my mother and Leslie's were nervous about our friendship. "Does the Manson Family have to have our address?" my mother moaned when I once had a letter sent there. And in...

Read Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-waters/leslie-van-houten-a-frien_b_247113.html



Leslie Van Houten: A Friendship, Part 5 of 5

Could Leslie's expression of remorse remain "superficial," as was charged in her 2003 parole hearing? She has been saying she's sorry for so long and with such eloquence, it is...

Read Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-waters/leslie-van-houten-a-frien_b_247142.html

This is long but let me know what you all think and maybe I'll share my thoughts as well - but not just yet.

[DontTreadOnMe]

1. Forgive and forget?

Once a Manson Girl, always a Manson girl.

Murder is a permanent state. You can't undo it.

[Ron Green]

2. Forgiveness of self and others is the highest state of being human.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

3. I love John Waters -

I think he's one of the most creative, clever, intelligent people we have in the arts today. He's an original.

But, on this matter, I disagree with him.

Some crimes are so depraved, so beyond the pale, that there is nothing that can be done except to lock away the people who committed them.

I don't hold with the death penalty, but I do hold with life. No parole. Life. Until they die - in prison.

Let me drag out that old saw about the killers should stay in prison as long as their victims are dead.

And Squeaky, while a Manson follower, wasn't among the group that committed the Tate-LaBianca murders, so I can accept her being released. She killed no one, didn't even fire a shot. She's done her time, and letting her out is the right thing to do.

But, the rest of them?

No. Never................

[bettyellen]

9. LOL, Squeaky Frome not only "fired a shot" she did so at our president at the time..

jesus fuck try getting a clue. she was an attempted presidential assassin.

[blogslut]

15. Actually, there was no shot

The gun was loaded but there was no bullet in the chamber and Ms. Fromme did not pull the trigger.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[cherokeeprogressive]

26. Since there was NO SHOT FIRED, and not even a round in the chamber I see her as

nothing more than a misguided woman with a gun who got close to an American President.

[bettyellen]

29. it was a loaded gun, and she pointed at the president.. enough said.

[mitchum]

4. She was a pretty girl who has aged well (although Ouisch was the hottest Manson Girl)

Irrelevant? Yes.
But then again, they have all become pop culture figures.

[Cleita]

5. No, she did the unforgivable. Those people she helped kill in cold blood will not

get parole for their deaths and be able to come back and resume their lives. I'm sure sobriety and prison has made her review her actions, but she really needs to stay in prison. When it comes to actions like that, second chances are not a possibility. I'm sorry I didn't read all your links but I have been following this story since it happened so I am familiar with it and do know personally another sociopath, also serial killer, who is a very charming person and now regrets his actions from a prison cell. I don't want him released either.

[TreasonousBastard]

6. I've been listening to Waters make the case on NPR, and...

he makes a good one.

No, a murder can't be undone, but a lot of other things can't be undone, either. And yes, this was a crime beyond the pale, but while it got a lot of press and involved famous people, was it really so much worse than the depraved killings and beatings we see every day in drivebys and gang wars? Or even some domestic disputes.

The concept of redemption is one of the highest ideals of humanity. The idea that a person can change, however rare it may be in actual practice, is a keystone of much of our vaunted justice system. In theory, anyway.

Yes, there were cons who gamed the system and conned people into letting them out, only to kill again. And, yes, there is no known way to be absolutely sure that the person has really changed.

But how can we call ourselves civilized if we only give lip service to these ideals, or dismiss them out of hand, and have not the courage to let one middle-aged woman out of jail to prove she is no longer what she once was? What more does she have to do to convince us?

[ContinentalOp]

7. That's an excellent series of articles. I love Waters...

and regardless of what you think personally about the issue it's a very interesting read.

[hlthe2b]

8. I heard most of his interview on NPR

I went into it expecting to be swayed, since I basically do believe in redemption.

However, there was something very disturbing to me about the way in which the entire issue, the murders, the cult and Manson--was discussed--as thought Waters still thought the whole thing was so theatric (and so very very cool). The way in which he describes Sharon Tate and the LaBiancas is almost surreal--as thought they weren't real, but just bloody props in his movie (or story).

I haven't decided whether Leslie Van Houten deserves to be freed and I think, frankly, I might be coming to the point that I'd be ok with it. All I know, is that Waters would be the last one to convince me. His take on this is very very creepy to me. Very dismissive of reality...As though she could never really have been guilty of those crimes because she was so pretty and so reminiscent of his own friends, who he of course, could never imagine doing such horrific crimes.

I enjoy Water's movies. But IMO, his approach of lobbying for Van Houten's freedom may just well backfire.

[Wizard777]

10. John Waters has some of the craziest friends.

But someone has to be their friend and I'm glad it's a good hearted person like John Waters.

[Echo In Light]

11. Yes. Ever read his autobiography, Shock Values?

Interesting cat.

[Wizard777]

14. I'm from Baltimore. I used to run into him and Harris (Divine) all the time.

It's a shame Divine died the day before he was to audition for the role of Peg on Married With Children. What a show that would have been.

:rofl:

Btw, The next time you watch that show. Instead of Al shrieking Oh my God kill me now as a totally hot babe like Katey Sagal, ahem, drags him upstairs to have sex. Imagine Divine under the big hair instead and you'll understand that whole bit a lot better. The role was his. The audition was merely a formality. When he died FOX sent flowers with a card that said, If you didn't want to do the show. All you had to do was say so. Morbid humor for a dead comedian.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Divine died in March of 1988

Married With Children, cast as it was, debuted in April of 1987. Divine was to have meetings about playing a part on that show, not about playing Peg.

[Wizard777]

25. I though I heard something about him being considered for the role of Peg.

But now that you mention it. Maybe he was being considered to play Pegs Mother. That character only appears as a sun blocking shadow. I don't know. That was long time ago and I'm at that age where I won't buy a green banana.

[aikoaiko]

12. If anti DP folks ever want to convince pro-DP folks like me to forgo the DP, then life in prison...

...must be life in prison.


If she has found personal redemption while in prison, then that's swell. She still has crimes to pay for.

[BuelahWitch]

13. "By now I certainly knew that what Leslie had done was anything but 'art'.".

Jesus Christ on a cracker! This has to be one of the most fucked up descriptions of a murder I've ever seen. Waters needs to go back to film making and leave the law discussions to somebody else...

[hlthe2b]

16. This is why I think Waters speaking out is the worst thing for LVH

While he is sincere and his series of articles are, over all, quite compelling, it is his language that so dismisses the objects of these crimes and almost makes it seem that he admires the crimes themselves for their artistic value. It is incredibly creepy.

[cwydro]

18. They should all stay in jail.

Period.

[hlthe2b]

19. So why are you so unwilling to share your own thoughts Devilgrrl?

[devilgrrl]

21. I just wanted to see what other people felt first...

personally, as much as I loathe Charles Manson and his associates and the barbarity of their crimes, I think she should be paroled. The only reason she's hasn't been at this point is because of the notoriety.


:shrug:

[UTUSN]

20. I saw one of her parole hearings on t.v. Yes, it was pathetic when she begged.

She had listed the remedial things she had done, courses, volunteering, whatever, and she said (paraphrasing) "I can't undo what I did."

WATERS wasn't convincing me by his description of their friendship and what a good person she is. He almost did it when he quoted BUGLIOSI as having said back when that the convicts (except for MANSON) would probably do 10-15 yrs and be paroled, but mostly when he listed all the people who did less time for comparable atrocities (CALLEY) and got out.

But in the end I'm still hanging back. Even though, "There but for the grace of Zeus go any of us."

WATERS himself, despite whatever talent, can't seem to be a good vehicle for any parole board. And the parole boards themselves would find little gut to face the overwhelming public reaction to letting her go.

As for why FROME and not VAN HOUTON, uh, despite FROMME's intended target being a president, they aren't really comparable in scope.

[aikoaiko]

23. Is it possible for a truly remorseful criminal to ask to be let out early?

Doesn't true remorse imply accepting one's punishment (cruel and unusual excepting)?

[whistler162]

24. She can be released...

when she fulfills her sentence!

[Morning Dew]

27. Excellent article - I love John Waters' work.